Brain Storm: Deep Sea Dragon Name

[Konig Des Todes]

That seems to be a Kraken and was discussed somewhere on the GW1Guru (not at home so it'll be annoying to find it, I'll edit the post later and link to that thread).

[Huginn]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That seems to be a Kraken and was discussed somewhere on the GW1Guru (not at home so it'll be annoying to find it, I'll edit the post later and link to that thread).

Ye I assumed it would have been discussed on gw1g before.

And I'm sure they weren't thinking of the deep sea dragon when they did that pic

[Unendingfear]

Just to pop in an idea, the name could be some deviant of "Izu-Bonin" (name of the plate system that forms the Mariana Trench).

[Ravious]

That would be cool... a lot of good ideas, but I am not seeing anything for them not showing their hand unless it hasn't been decided upon (Jeff's hints seem to say this is not so) or it has meaning...

[Joiry]

Originally Posted by Arghore

Another name that sounds like a good reference would be Tiamat, as she is allready described in earthen legends to be a seasnake/dragon like creature giving birth to snakes and dragons ...

When I first read this, I thought, "yeah, but most gamers will think of the 5 headed dragon from D&D, and not the original Babylonian myth." And Anet might not want that association.

However, reading up on the myth, and some of the etymology on WP (assuming its right), seems to provide a several potential names related to Tiamat, or theorized as being related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

tamtu or ti'amtum (Akkadian "sea")

thalassa (greek "sea")

Tethys - titaness - might be nice for the association with the titans, who were older than the greek gods. No, I am not suggesting the gods are the children of dragons, Anet often just takes mythology as a jumping off point.

[Konig Des Todes]

Going to post this here as to not make a new thread or distrupt the current discussion in the Thread of No Topic.

I think I've realized 2 things of the Deep Sea Dragon: It's (general) location, and the reason why it isn't brought up but known that it actually awoke in lore. I won't be going through the thought process I had, but the same reasoning I had when I came up with this:

So Tyria is cut off from the rest of the world. To the north you pretty much have Jormag. To the south you have Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik. But what about the east and west? Well, to the east we have the Dragonbrand and no knowledge of what's east of there. The Dragonbrand isn't that problematic, but it is problematic.

What about the west?

Luckily, Fort Koga has a hint as to what is west of Tyria:

Originally Posted by For Koga description

Years ago, Fort Koga was a key defensive point between Kryta and the western coast of Tyria. Guilds from across Tyria came to siege its walls, for those who controlled the fort controlled the trade routes.

So if there were trade routes that went to the west - what happened to them? Most likely they fell out of use due to the Shining Blade and more importantly the centaurs, and the trade use was probably the mentioning of the druids being driven out of the Maguuma (though they seemed to have since returned).

So why not rebuild that trade route? The asura and sylvari certainly should be able to do such.

The answer is simple: The coast. Or, specifically: The deep sea dragon. We know of it because it prevents trade to the west while Zhaitan blocks off the south sea trade routes.

This could also provide an answer why so little is known about it: The dragon is so far away from the main continent of Tyria it's such a minor threat. It's not only off of every known map, I doubt that the Maguuma suddenly stops shortly after the map we have. So thus we have a plausible reason for why we don't know when it woke up - no one was in conflict with it when it woke up, unlike Zhaitan who caused a tidal wave, Kralkatorrik who created a scar of horror, Jormag who pushed an entire race south, or Primordus who is the main enemy of the dwarves.

Makes perfect sense to me (of course it would, I thought of it and wouldn't post it if it didn't make sense...), and it certain explains a few things.

It couldn't be south of Zhaitan due to the non-existent information we get from the south, and it is less likely to be northwest in that unnamed body of water because something would known about it. Though some of its minions may reach into that body of water.

[Maldeus]

Note: I have, for a week or two now, been referring to the dragon in question as Bubbles for convenience. This should make the following post less confusing.

Bubbles could be to the west, yes, however if it was between Tyria and Cantha to the south, we wouldn't know about it, because there hasn't been a reason to sail south to Cantha since Emperor Xenophobia took over, and also I believe Bubbles awoke after Zhaitan (we don't know what exact year Bubbles woke up in, but there is a curious gap between two dragon awakenings that's twice as long as normal, so we can be fairly certain of where he pops up in the overall order...But I've lost track of the timeline, and can't seem to dig it up).

Also, if Bubbles was near the northwest island, who would tell us? There don't appear to be any civilizations of significance north of Kryta in the time of GW1 (whoever they were, the Charr either cut straight through them or simply weren't bothered by them during their 1070 AE attack), and with Jormag uncomfortably close, I find it unlikely one of the Five Races would've set up shop there (particularly since we haven't heard tell of it in any of the lore).

That being said, there's no reason to believe Bubbles isn't west of Maguuma. As I said in the Finding Bubbles thread, Bubbles could be just about anywhere. Personally, I think he'll show up as being somewhere in the vicinity of Cantha, because if he isn't, who's going to be the antagonist of the Canthan expansion?

[Konig Des Todes]

We've known for a while that the dsd (easier to type than bubbles) awoke about 50 years after Zhaitan and 50 years before Kralkatorrik. 50 being an approximate Jeff gave for the time between ED awakenings.

However, the thought that the dsd is south of Zhaitan fails in one important part: We know that the dsd is near land (there is no land except for cantha to the south, which hasn't been heard of since zhaitan), and as I said previously: We've gotten next to nothing, if anything, since Zhaitan arose. We certainly have no knowledge of anything being said of from the south.

If the dsd was in the body of water to the northwest (note: This was my original thought) it would be relatively close to the centaurs and krytans, who were pushed north. Do note that Divinity's Reach is most likely not the northernmost city. If it were in that body of area, we'd have more information on it due to it being so much closer. Also, there are the Queztal tengu north of Kryta.

That isn't to say that I don't think the dsd doesn't have influence over there. I'm in fact fairly certain it does. But just that it itself isn't there - rather, it's minions are. The only one I rather disagree with outright is south of Tyria, due to Zhaitan it would be nigh impossible, if not impossible, to know of any threat. And by the sound of the Movement of the World, it sounds like Zhaitan is the only issue with people getting to Tyria from Cantha:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World

Once Orr rose from the ocean, those tendencies were reinforced by an inability to safely sail the western seas. Any ships venturing near the Strait of Malchor are sunk by the black ships, then dredged from the ocean floor by the Orrian dragon and commandeered into service. Thus, completely cut off from Kryta, Cantha vanished entirely. Travelers, refugees, and even Xunlai agents residing within Tyrian heard nothing more from Cantha.

Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles, but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

The fact that sailors were able to wash ashore would imply that their boat sunk nearby - thus implying by Zhaitan's fleet. Aside from this, there's nothing from Cantha. Key word being underlined. Implying that were the DSD south of Cantha, even if people managed to wash ashore such a distance, there would be not a word of the dsd.


After all, there are krakens in the sea (third dialogue in the Arid Sea section), so one wouldn't be able to decern that it is an elder dragon and not simply a kraken.

Also, that line even points out something interesting... Inability to safely sail the western seas... Why wouldn't the western seas be safe if Zhaitan only controlled the southern seas?



As for the antagonist of the Canthan expansion - considering Usoku's actions... there's a good amount of possible routes to take.

And that's assuming there will even be a Canthan expansion. We may go to Cantha just for a "we must go south of Cantha" kind of thing.

[draxynnic]

Interesting line of thought, and it does seem to make sense.

All that said, though, it could be in the northwest as well as the west (although primarily the latter) since the northwest ocean reaches the western edge of the map - it's possible that the northwestern sea is actually a part of the western sea. Mind you, this does raise the question of why the normal trade route wasn't to the northern coast rather than west through the dangerous jungle - but it's possible that something about the northwest sea made it even more dangerous.

[Thalador Doomspeaker]

It seems to be a plausible theory. I still think that he's in the north-northwestern seas, though the fact that the DSD might be near the western coasts of Tyria could give us a good reason to explore those unknown lands.

(Just one thing: Leon's magical conductivity theory could allow us to explain the situation if the DSD was south of Orr. Basically, it might be possible that the water could "conduct" the DSD's magical corruption until the desired location - where the Dragon wants to create its minion.)

Another thing: the author of Durmand Priory - and I presume that all of Durmand Priory - knew about the DSD, whereas it seems that those outside its walls did not. That'd explain why that approximately 100 year-long gap is between Zhaitan's and Kralkatorrik's awakening - because the timeline was not made by Priory. However, the question remains: how did the Priory/the author gain knowledge of the DSD (perhaps from Dwarven scrolls)?

[Konig Des Todes]

The north/northwestern body of water is still likely - I personally think that the dsd is literally northwest (that is, take the location of that body of water and go west a bit) which prevents both western and northwestern trade (that is, no way to sail around the dsd's domain).

I don't think the timeline is made from an in-universe standpoint. Rather, it's "what the players know/devs want the players to know."

The knowledge of the dsd doesn't sound like it came from scrolls.

[Maldeus]

A few questions.

First, how do we know Divinity's Reach isn't the northernmost city?

Second, how do we know that the timeline (which, keep in mind, I saw once, forgot to copy, and never saw a source on) is the information available to our characters, and not just information available to us?

Third, how do we know that anyone currently in Tyria knows that Bubbles woke up? It's not even a recorded event on the timeline.

[Konig Des Todes]

1) Centaurs are said to be raiding the northern settlements of Kryta. Divinity's Reach is most likely not getting raided thus most likely not the northernmost. This is, of course, not 100% proven.

Along with that, Krytans were pushed north and that's a lot of land to lose if they're not expanding further north. And nothing states that it was the northernmost settlement in Kryta *by humans*.

2) We don't.

3) The Movement of the World is written from a Tyrian perspective during the time of GW2.

[Crow Clown]

Originally Posted by Huginn

The key to finding something that don't want to be found is to, instead of speculating, try to evolve what we already know.

So what do we know?

His power is to make tentacles/tentacled creatures in every single lake if he wanted to, right? Well we could go and search for every single tentacled related creature there is, but then we would still have allot of work to single one out.

So what more do we know.

lets take the other dragons.

Jormag: Clearly from the Norse mythic creature Jörmungandr, which fits very well considering its location.

Zhaitan: Anyone doubting that it's from Satan? Fits well to. his power is to raise the undead to use as minions, or atleast that's what he do Satan being an evil guy and all i assume want to enslave the humanity so imo it fits very well

Kralkatorrik: Krakatoa. Even if it's a coincident, it's a great one The volcano as i understand (didn't read everything), destroyed allot of things, was big, had the power four times bigger than the largest nuclear device ever built, and 13000 times greater than the Hiroshima bomb. It sounds like our dragon, no? the only problem I have with it is the location: Indonesia, which I can't see how this fits into the charr place (isn't charr from Romans or Greek or something?) Though it may be just in this case.

Primordus: I can't figure this one out at al, the closest i got was a lizard Called Varanus primordius or blunt-spined goanna. Lizards kinda = dragons, though I can't see that one having any connection, unless Premordus is blunt-spined

So what are we looking for? A creature/thing in folklore or in history that has something to do with tentacles/seas and/or a nature catastrophe.

U got that info from Guild wars 2 wiki....



I'm going to go for something with Mare and Serpent in it. Maybe a Anogram. Anet likes Anograms. Take Rata sum for example (Mursaat).

Marrespent

[Maldeus]

Thank you for answering the questions, but that does raise another one, specifically, who checked? Who dived into the ocean deep enough to see the dragon which is rather implied to be deep beneath the sea? I suppose it might come closer to the surface at times...

[Zetta]

Originally Posted by Maldeus

Thank you for answering the questions, but that does raise another one, specifically, who checked? Who dived into the ocean deep enough to see the dragon which is rather implied to be deep beneath the sea? I suppose it might come closer to the surface at times...

That, quite frankly, sounds like something the Order of Whispers would do at times.

It's possible that knowledge of the DSD is only known by the Order of Whispers/the Priory as a method of control. I don't think people want to know that there's another Elder Dragon out there. Kind of a scary thought for your average citizen.

Or, perhaps its impact hasn't been felt by Tyria yet.

[Arghore]

A rather interesting thought line and it seems to make sense aswell, nice one Konig

[Konig Des Todes]

Interesting tidbit from late into the Ghosts of Ascalon novel:

The group begins discussing the Elder Dragon's influence on Tyria after venturing through the Dragonbrand, and Dougal says: "Kralkatorrik, Primordus, Jormag and Zhaitan [snip a bit about big Zhainny]. And for all we know, there may be more of them."

Confirming the idea that at least common Tyrians do not know of the dsd.

I wonder how the writer of the Movement knew of it...

If you quote this, be sure to add the spoil tag - otherwise I'll have to. >.>

[Maldeus]

Hmmm, most intriguing...

With that, Bubbles could be just about anywhere in the game world.

I wonder if the Drumand Priory or the Order of Whispers has some way of knowing about his existence? That, or the Asura have cooked up a dragon radar.

[Konig Des Todes]

Considering the Order of Whispers has access to Elona, it is clear that they, at least, are not without access to additional knowledge of the world.

They may even know the current situation of Cantha.