Discussion on the Mursaat

[Konig Des Todes]

The difference between the Tarnished Haven and Ronan's village is that Tarnished Haven is an exile location. And those two places are the only place, aside from Druid's Overlook that is in the Maguuma Jungle/Tarnished Coast.

[Gmr Leon]

The Tarnished Coast, at least in comparison to the Maguuma Jungle (if you're not a Druid or the resourceful Shining Blade anyway) seems a bit easier to inhabit though, to say the least. Especially considering something built those ruins. Regardless, if Kryta hadn't been invaded by the Charr, spun into a civil war, and struck by a tidal wave, chances are that it would have eventually expanded its territory into the Tarnished Coast, since they already had a southern province bordering it in the form of Riverside Province.

[TedTheShred]

Sorry for pulling the discussion away from the location of the Mursaat homelands, but I have for some time been mulling something over.

I would like to suggest that the Mursaat are benevolent, not malevolent.

Let's look at their list of achievements:

- Saved Kryta from the Charr
- Kept the Scepter of Orr from the Flameseeker
- Held close the Door of Komalie

Let's look at what anti-Mursaat elements in the game had us do:

- Shatter the singular stabilizing force in the Human-occupied Tyria
- Give the Scepter of Orr to the Flameseeker
- Open the door of Komalie, releasing the Titans

If you hadn't played the game, and if you read these lists, who would you consider the 'bad guys'?

Now let's look at Glint's characterization of the Mursaat:

Their stranglehold on the lands of Kryta and beyond will be broken. For years the Mursaat and their human disciples have hunted down the Chosen, murdering them to prevent the prophecies from coming to pass.

Their stranglehold? What stranglehold is that? Since when are safety, unity, and prosperity the characteristics of a stranglehold? And what was the alternative? An inept, disorganized, unpopular monarchy that was unable to control the Guild Wars or hold back the Charr hordes.

Hunted down and murdered the Chosen to prevent the prophecies from coming to pass? Left out some minor details there, didn't you?

Let's look at this quote with some context included:

Their [unifying presence and protective magic] on the lands of Kryta and beyond will be broken. For years the Mursaat and their human disciples have [tracked] down the Chosen, [sacrificing] them to prevent the [freeing of the Titans] from coming to pass.

But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. It's not like Glint could have had any idea that framing the Mursaat as villains that needed to be vanquished for Humanity's sake would result in the player releasing those Titans onto the world. You'd need to have visions that foretell events like 800 years in the future to be able to see that coming.

Do you think that the people telling you that the Mursaat are bad may simply not have the Mursaat's best interests at heart? By sending the players to the Southern Shiverpeaks Glint indirectly releases the Titans. If Glint had simply eaten the players or trapped them forever on that grain of sand, then the Titans would not be released. The Flameseeker would have failed his nefarious scheme.

Now, what are the motivations of the Mursaat? Self-preservation is our immediate response. "Do everything you can think of to stop the Flameseeker Prophecies! We will all die if they happen! Let's not let them happen!"

'But they did terrible things to achieve their goals!' You may reply.

To stop Nightfall, we released the Scourge of Vabbi. That turned out great.

It's also not like they came in, all scorched-earth-like, and obliterated the nation of Kryta. They even could have let the Charr take care of that for them. No, they created a system where they let those to be sacrificed think that they were off to do great things. And they did. The sacrifices of the Chosen were instrumental in keeping the Door of Komalie closed. If it had opened how many Krytans would have died? If the general public knew what needed to be done to keep that door closed would they have willingly participated?

Also, consider the idea of self-preservation as a necessary aspect of benevolence. How, if the Titans could destroy the Mursaat (who are a devastatingly powerful race), would Humanity expect to survive without them? The Mursaat needed to protect themselves if they were to protect anyone else.

Again, on paper, the rational behind the Mursaat actions is understandable.

Lazarus the Dire, however, is an interesting facet of the idea of benevolent Mursaat. It is widely assumed that Lazarus is a reference to Lazarus of Bethany. Resurrection was his claim to fame, and seeing Lazarus the Dire after the destruction of the Mursaat is easily an allusion.

I however, am more inclined to reach for Lazarus and Dives:

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's Side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hell,[2] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 'No, Father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'

It's a pretty thin theory, I admit, but an interesting one to ponder. It's been suggested that Glint may not be a force for good in Tyria. If that's the case, how should we characterize a race that she described as "nothing more than a terrible and fearful race of spellcasters?"

[draxynnic]

Sha: You've basically said pretty much what I did.

The difference is I allowed for the possibility that the Mursaat gates might be capable of providing teleportation to a location that didn't have a receiving gate. This of course asks the question of why the Mursaat had a gate so close to Thunderhead Keep, but that could have been erected so that the Mursaat could leave rather than as the method of arrival.

Ted: I find the mass human sacrifice a hard thing to justify. Okay, yes, we released the Scourge of Vabbi...except we didn't, really, when you pay close attention. We went to his tomb in order to see if we could wrest his secrets from him and discovered that he'd already got out - after that, an alliance of convenience was made with the realisation that Nightfall represented the bigger problem. Afterwards, he was either too strong to topple, or appeared willing enough to coexist peacefully that he didn't seem worth the effort of bringing down.

Now, there is some truth to your argument - but little if any evidence that the Mursaat did what they did out of altruism rather than self-interest, and on the whole humanity is probably better off with the Flameseeker Prophecies having run their course than if the Mursaat were still in power and the Lich was still out there.

Something else you may have missed is that in the background, it's mentioned that there is a large imbalance in wealth between members of the White Mantle and other Krytans. And if you can get through this quest without feeling a sense of unease, you weren't observant enough. The stranglehold Glint refers to certainly seems to me to be real enough.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by TedTheShred

Sorry for pulling the discussion away from the location of the Mursaat homelands, but I have for some time been mulling something over.

I would like to suggest that the Mursaat are benevolent, not malevolent.

Let's look at their list of achievements:

- Saved Kryta from the Charr
- Kept the Scepter of Orr from the Flameseeker
- Held close the Door of Komalie

Let's look at what anti-Mursaat elements in the game had us do:

- Shatter the singular stabilizing force in the Human-occupied Tyria
- Give the Scepter of Orr to the Flameseeker
- Open the door of Komalie, releasing the Titans

If you hadn't played the game, and if you read these lists, who would you consider the 'bad guys'?

Now let's look at Glint's characterization of the Mursaat:



Their stranglehold? What stranglehold is that? Since when are safety, unity, and prosperity the characteristics of a stranglehold? And what was the alternative? An inept, disorganized, unpopular monarchy that was unable to control the Guild Wars or hold back the Charr hordes.

Hunted down and murdered the Chosen to prevent the prophecies from coming to pass? Left out some minor details there, didn't you?

Let's look at this quote with some context included:



But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. It's not like Glint could have had any idea that framing the Mursaat as villains that needed to be vanquished for Humanity's sake would result in the player releasing those Titans onto the world. You'd need to have visions that foretell events like 800 years in the future to be able to see that coming.

Do you think that the people telling you that the Mursaat are bad may simply not have the Mursaat's best interests at heart? By sending the players to the Southern Shiverpeaks Glint indirectly releases the Titans. If Glint had simply eaten the players or trapped them forever on that grain of sand, then the Titans would not be released. The Flameseeker would have failed his nefarious scheme.

Now, what are the motivations of the Mursaat? Self-preservation is our immediate response. "Do everything you can think of to stop the Flameseeker Prophecies! We will all die if they happen! Let's not let them happen!"

'But they did terrible things to achieve their goals!' You may reply.

To stop Nightfall, we released the Scourge of Vabbi. That turned out great.

It's also not like they came in, all scorched-earth-like, and obliterated the nation of Kryta. They even could have let the Charr take care of that for them. No, they created a system where they let those to be sacrificed think that they were off to do great things. And they did. The sacrifices of the Chosen were instrumental in keeping the Door of Komalie closed. If it had opened how many Krytans would have died? If the general public knew what needed to be done to keep that door closed would they have willingly participated?

Also, consider the idea of self-preservation as a necessary aspect of benevolence. How, if the Titans could destroy the Mursaat (who are a devastatingly powerful race), would Humanity expect to survive without them? The Mursaat needed to protect themselves if they were to protect anyone else.

Again, on paper, the rational behind the Mursaat actions is understandable.

Lazarus the Dire, however, is an interesting facet of the idea of benevolent Mursaat. It is widely assumed that Lazarus is a reference to Lazarus of Bethany. Resurrection was his claim to fame, and seeing Lazarus the Dire after the destruction of the Mursaat is easily an allusion.

I however, am more inclined to reach for Lazarus and Dives:



It's a pretty thin theory, I admit, but an interesting one to ponder. It's been suggested that Glint may not be a force for good in Tyria. If that's the case, how should we characterize a race that she described as "nothing more than a terrible and fearful race of spellcasters?"

Not what they did its HOW they did it, they had the right thought going not wanting the world destroyed but they went about preventing it wrong and in away helped the prophecies come to pass had most of the people known of it they would have had a different mind set and found a possible compromise but the Mursaat did not see that as an option(or thought it would not work)

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Ted: I find the mass human sacrifice a hard thing to justify. Okay, yes, we released the Scourge of Vabbi...except we didn't, really, when you pay close attention. We went to his tomb in order to see if we could wrest his secrets from him and discovered that he'd already got out - after that, an alliance of convenience was made with the realisation that Nightfall represented the bigger problem. Afterwards, he was either too strong to topple, or appeared willing enough to coexist peacefully that he didn't seem worth the effort of bringing down.

Although he is right, in the sense that we helped reform and bolster Palawa's forces.

[TedTheShred]

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Ted: I find the mass human sacrifice a hard thing to justify. Okay, yes, we released the Scourge of Vabbi...except we didn't, really, when you pay close attention. We went to his tomb in order to see if we could wrest his secrets from him and discovered that he'd already got out - after that, an alliance of convenience was made with the realisation that Nightfall represented the bigger problem. Afterwards, he was either too strong to topple, or appeared willing enough to coexist peacefully that he didn't seem worth the effort of bringing down.

Is there really a moral distinction between this sacrifice and the litany of sacrifices made in each of the games?

How many sacrifices were made in defense of Ascalon? The lands were a barren, unsustainable wasteland. Adelbern continued to fight over a plot of dirt, and eventually transformed Ascalon into a literal ghost town.

How many sacrifices are made in the interest of Jade and Amber? How many Sunspears came back from Gandara? And the Dwarves? Let's not pretend that sacrifice isn't commonplace in Tyria.

And as far as this particular instance of sacrifice is concerned, it's mild. Let's look at this snippets pulled from the official wiki:

The Door of Komalie was powered by the Soul Batteries, annually charged by reaping the souls of the Chosen on a Bloodstone in the Maguuma Jungle.

"My goodness! Is it really Summer Solstice already? Time for the test."

There were six? seven? Chosen on that Bloodstone? An annual charge of the Bloodstone is seven people? Seven people? How many Mursaat do we sacrifice on the Fire Ring Islands to save seven people per year?

If you find mass human sacrifice a hard pill to swallow, the Mursaat might just be your team.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by TedTheShred

Is there really a moral distinction between this sacrifice and the litany of sacrifices made in each of the games?

How many sacrifices were made in defense of Ascalon? The lands were a barren, unsustainable wasteland. Adelbern continued to fight over a plot of dirt, and eventually transformed Ascalon into a literal ghost town.

How many sacrifices are made in the interest of Jade and Amber? How many Sunspears came back from Gandara? And the Dwarves? Let's not pretend that sacrifice isn't commonplace in Tyria.

And as far as this particular instance of sacrifice is concerned, it's mild. Let's look at this snippets pulled from the official wiki:



There were six? seven? Chosen on that Bloodstone? An annual charge of the Bloodstone is seven people? Seven people? How many Mursaat do we sacrifice on the Fire Ring Islands to save seven people per year?

If you find mass human sacrifice a hard pill to swallow, the Mursaat might just be your team.

He has a point it really is a small sacrifice compared to what the sacrifice prevented, 7 people to save the entire planet from fiery doom

[Konig Des Todes]

Originally Posted by TedTheShred

There were six? seven? Chosen on that Bloodstone? An annual charge of the Bloodstone is seven people? Seven people? How many Mursaat do we sacrifice on the Fire Ring Islands to save seven people per year?

If you find mass human sacrifice a hard pill to swallow, the Mursaat might just be your team.

The Mursaat were not sacrificed, and there was more than the sacrificing to do. Killing innocents (it wasn't the numbers, it was the reason and the people who were being sacrificed), and being a tyrannical dictator-race.

In other words, how I see it, thep layers fought the White Mantle and then Mursaat because they were tyrannical leaders.

Besides, it was more than 7 people. Note: We see three groups of Chosen of about 5-8 people. Not only are there those which the Shining Blade failed to rescue (seen killed by spiders, except one, in The Wilds), there was a group at the beginning Bloodstone Fen you can see being led then killed over the cliff(s) (note: at the beginning), then there is a third group which is killed in the cinematic.

So we're talking about 21 people a year - which means 63 people were killed since Saul was taken - this does not include those the Mursaat killed when they defeated the Charr, or anyone who were not sacrificed on a bloodstone by the White Mantle, and this assumes it is just three groups who are killed yearly. In fact, it's bound to be more than 21 people a year. When you destroy the Soul Batteries in Abaddon's Mouth, you can see about 4 or 5 spirits leave from the exploding soul battery - meaning 4 or 5 souls per battery - and then there's those who are hostile (the ones before you have to pan up to see, as they are not targetable) which is about 3, I believe. There's about 6 soul batteries at the RoF bloodstone.

Along with that, there's the docks which are filled with bloodstones (Soul Batteries). I believe it is a 4 by 5 set, with 2 sets. That's 45 soul batteries - 45 times 8? 360 souls are seen on the Ring of Fire.

But wait! There's more!

Along with the Soul Batteries, we see that the Ether Seals hold souls (shown by Leah Stone). Let's assume there's 1 soul per Ether Seal. How many Ether Seals are there? There's about 10 in Abaddon's Mouth, and one in the RoF explorable, and then 11 in the Ring of Fire mission. So that's an additional 22 souls.

And if the theory that the Jade Armors are powered by souls... phew that's a lot! So we have about 382 souls seen to be used by the Mursaat. That's far more than the 63 confirmed sacrificed since Saul's vanishing.

Still a small sacrifice?

[Randy]

yes, and he was being sarcastic about the mursaat being sacrificed as in we killed them all in RoF islands, where does it say jade Armors are soul powered, and its still better than THE WORLD BEING TAKEN OVER BY A CRAZY UNDEAD SERVANT OF EVIL its never been proven they run on souls(the jade constructs) and again.
portion of people die per year vs world taken over by Titans... Ill go with sacrifice

[Konig Des Todes]

It isn't said that the Jades are powered by souls. I said it is believed and if so, that's a lot more souls.

Also, the Mursaat had nothing to do with Khilbron - all they were protecting Tyria from was the Titans, and what about the Door of Komalie before the Chosen? The Door somehow manages to be closed without killing hundreds of innocents.

We don't know the state of the Door before Prophecies, so we can't say the Door would be opened, so it isn't positive the world would be taken over by Titans.

And honestly, with hundreds being sacrificed every few years, along with other deaths, and I doubt the public health isn't that great in such a time period, eventually there won't be enough souls to sacrifice. So honestly, if things kept going the way of the Mursaat, then the door would be opened eventually.

Also, Ted's point wasn't "sacrificing or world take over" it was "sacrificing or no more Mursaat" - big difference.

[Randy]

Maybe the old method of powering the door ceased to work, public health in the game has to be good since the bulk of the world survives without eating or sleeping and and had the door been opened the titans would be unleashed and the only issue is they would not be under anyone's control. It needs to be powered to stay sealed, it cant stay shut for long without the seals(maybe the SEALS prevent it from being opened form outside and its naturally shut seals just insurance) if it is naturally closed, and the seals just lock it so it cant be opend and the prophecies cant be fulfilled then it is possible the prophecies would have come to pass anyways had the mursaat NOT LOCKED THE DOOR!

[Konig Des Todes]

The prophecies occurred due to the Mursaat's and Charr's actions. The invasion and the sacrificing both caused the Flameseeker Prophecies to come to pass.

It's impossible to tell what caused the door to open, but what did cause it to open was the Soul Battery's destruction. This doesn't mean they were keeping it locked up, the power of the souls could of caused it to unlock (oh the irony that would be!), or something different, and the Soul Batteries was a fail-safe (which was used when we killed Khilbron).

But that's aside the point. The discussion regarding the sacrificing was whether to keep on sacrificing or overthrow the Mursaat (and bring the Prophecies). Whether or not the Door would of opened is not part of the topic.

So which would you choose: hundreds of people killed every three years, or a race going near extinct, an undead threat being gone, and the titans coming out then being killed?

Eventually, those hundreds would become thousands and with the undead's victims the deaths of Krytans would then outnumber the race which sought to protect itself.

Also:

Originally Posted by Randy

public health in the game has to be good since the bulk of the world survives without eating or sleeping

Honestly? Please tell me this is a joke and you forgot to add a sarcastic note.

[Randy]

Point being Mursaat intentions were not bad, the method of doing it was, and again had the mursaat not been there who would have stopped the lich form waltzing in with the scepter and getting to work, and had the Mursaat better planned it they could have taken down the undead but again They went about doing it WRONG

[Konig Des Todes]

I wouldn't really be saying saving one's own hide at the cost of hundreds of others is good intentions. You think that the Mursaats were doing what they were doing to protect the world - but is this the case? If the Mursaat are so concerned about themselves being seen, I doubt that they'd be as selfless as you believe. So I wouldn't say they have good intentions - however, this is an opinion.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I wouldn't really be saying saving one's own hide at the cost of hundreds of others is good intentions. You think that the Mursaat were doing what they were doing to protect the world - but is this the case? If the Mursaat are so concerned about themselves being seen, I doubt that they'd be as selfless as you believe. So I wouldn't say they have good intentions - however, this is an opinion.

They aren't exactly a prize to look at and frankly most people who were not used to seeing ****ed up shit(player char) would freak out upon seeing them so staying hidden best unless they had a plan, and yes largely to save the hide of an Entire race, but in preventing the prophecies they would also prevent serious bad things from happening if they did not worry about the result of being seen by the people would be they would have been able to find a way to get it right, but again intentions of saving the world and by extension themselves is a GOOD thing so protecting the world=good, the method they went with=bad cant make it anymore clear

[Konig Des Todes]

You misunderstand, apparently. I understand your (and Randy's) side of the argument, however, you both ignore the opposite: We don't know if they were keeping the door closed to protect the world.

To clarify: It could just as easily be that they were protecting themselves and protecting the world was the byproduct of their actions.

[TedTheShred]

Okay, first off to Randy and Konig: I am not asserting that the Mursaat are 'good' guys. In order to better understand them, I am simply inciting a discussion that looks at their actions from a new perspective. Context is important. The context we are given in the game is that they are 'bad'. However, many of the things the players do to fight the 'bad' guys cause major problems down the road, going so far as to aid another (arguably worse) set of 'bad' guys.

Given that the results of fighting the Mursaat were so potentially catastrophic, it's important to ask why we think we should be fighting them. Who led us down that path? Can we be any more confident about their motives than the motives of the Mursaat?

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The Mursaat were not sacrificed, and there was more than the sacrificing to do. Killing innocents (it wasn't the numbers, it was the reason and the people who were being sacrificed), and being a tyrannical dictator-race.

In other words, how I see it, thep layers fought the White Mantle and then Mursaat because they were tyrannical leaders.

Besides, it was more than 7 people. Note: We see three groups of Chosen of about 5-8 people. Not only are there those which the Shining Blade failed to rescue (seen killed by spiders, except one, in The Wilds), there was a group at the beginning Bloodstone Fen you can see being led then killed over the cliff(s) (note: at the beginning), then there is a third group which is killed in the cinematic.

So we're talking about 21 people a year - which means 63 people were killed since Saul was taken - this does not include those the Mursaat killed when they defeated the Charr, or anyone who were not sacrificed on a bloodstone by the White Mantle, and this assumes it is just three groups who are killed yearly. In fact, it's bound to be more than 21 people a year. When you destroy the Soul Batteries in Abaddon's Mouth, you can see about 4 or 5 spirits leave from the exploding soul battery - meaning 4 or 5 souls per battery - and then there's those who are hostile (the ones before you have to pan up to see, as they are not targetable) which is about 3, I believe. There's about 6 soul batteries at the RoF bloodstone.

Along with that, there's the docks which are filled with bloodstones. I believe it is a 4 by 5 set, with 2 sets. That's 45 soul batteries - 45 times 8? 360 souls are seen on the Ring of Fire.

But wait! There's more!

Along with the Soul Batteries, we see that the Ether Seals hold souls (shown by Leah Stone). Let's assume there's 1 soul per Ether Seal. How many Ether Seals are there? There's about 10 in Abaddon's Mouth, and one in the RoF explorable, and then 11 in the Ring of Fire mission. So that's an additional 22 souls.

And if the theory that the Jade Armors are powered by souls... phew that's a lot! So we have about 382 souls seen to be used by the Mursaat. That's far more than the 63 confirmed sacrificed since Saul's vanishing.

Still a small sacrifice?

Fantastic data-gathering Konig.

I had no idea that the number stretched so high. I simply remember first 'realizing' what the Mantle/Mursaat were up to and thinking "That's it?"

Now, there is a broad assumption you appear to be making, and it's worth noting that there is an alternative scenario.

Let's assume that all your numbers are 100% accurate. Your assumption is that Ether Seals and Jade Armors are synonymous with Soul Batteries. More precisely, you assume that it is exclusively the Chosen whose souls are powering all three of these mechanisms. All we have been told is that the souls of the Chosen are used to power the Soul Batteries. We are not told that they also power the Seals or the Armors.

Now, if we accept that the Jade Armors are powered by souls, which souls make prime candidates? For this answer, we should look for precedents elsewhere in the lore. I present the Juggernaut as that precedent. Which souls are chosen for the Juggernaut? Trusted, Devoted, Volunteer Kurzicks. Why? Likely, because either that 'soul' directly controls the Juggernaut (like a new body) or they are indirectly guided by the motivations and desires of the soul's previous life. If souls, in fact, power the Jade Armors, it is well within the realm of possibility that those souls were willing participants. In fact, their autonomy suggests it.

The Ether Seals' willingness to attack the players lends them to a similar scenario as the Jade Armor, though I fear that's as much of an assumption as the idea that they're powered by the Chosen.

I presume that the quality that the Eye of Janthir sees in the Chosen is not related to their role in the Flameseeker Prophecies, but is instead related to their soul's ability to power the Soul Batteries.

[Ratchet]

When you destroy the Soul Batteries in Abaddon's Mouth, you can see about 4 or 5 spirits leave from the exploding soul battery - meaning 4 or 5 souls per battery - and then there's those who are hostile (the ones before you have to pan up to see, as they are not targetable) which is about 3, I believe. There's about 6 soul batteries at the RoF bloodstone.

To say that the in-game animation of four or five souls flying from the batteries relates directly to the number of annual people killed over the bloodstone is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? I mean, it would be a bit lackluster to have a quarter of a soul fizz off the battery after you've destroyed it. I'd say the number is for appearances sake, not canonical lore.

Now, as far as i remember, the only human sacrifices witnessed by the player are those at Bloodstone Fen. the locale of the other bloodstones (one of which no one knows) makes it seem unlikely that every stone must be sacrificed over for abaddon's mouth to remain shut, though it looks like an attractive idea. another option could be that humans weren't the only sacrifices but thats another story.

Unless there are more than annual slayings at bloodstone fen, i do believe that the number would remain well under 'genocidal' per year. Also, lets be real here, if the "chosen" ruse the white mantle were playing was ever meant to be taken seriously, then only a select few could be taken at any one time. it'd never carry if hundreds were chosen per year.

I still dont see the argument against the mursaat though. from my perspective, the door remaining shut is of the greatest importance to just about everyone, regardless of motives. we don't know enough to discern the benevolence or malevolence of the Mursaat, which i think is Anet's intention

[draxynnic]

Regarding Ether Seals: At least one (the one you need to destroy for the Abaddon's Gate bonus) contains a soul that is most definitely not loyal to the Mursaat. It seems likely that, unlike the Kurzicks, the Mursaat either have some means of controlling souls against their will, or the Mursaat constructs purely use the soul as a power source while following their own programming.

Originally Posted by TedTheShred

Is there really a moral distinction between this sacrifice and the litany of sacrifices made in each of the games?

How many sacrifices were made in defense of Ascalon? The lands were a barren, unsustainable wasteland. Adelbern continued to fight over a plot of dirt, and eventually transformed Ascalon into a literal ghost town.

How many sacrifices are made in the interest of Jade and Amber? How many Sunspears came back from Gandara? And the Dwarves? Let's not pretend that sacrifice isn't commonplace in Tyria.

The difference between all of these "examples" and what the Mursaat were doing?

The Ascalonian, Kurzick, Luxon, Sunspear and Dwarven soldiers were all that - soldiers. Most if not all of them volunteered to put their lives on the line for their people. The Chosen weren't given that opportunity - they were deceived and lead to their dooms like sheep to the slaughter. There is a huge difference between a volunteer and a victim.

Regarding arguments about the necessity of the sacrifices - How did the Mursaat keep the Door closed before taking over Kryta? Unless they'd just finished off clearing out the Chosen from some other population, it seems likely that at most the sacrifices strengthened the defenses of the Door rather than being required to keep it closed. Unless the Searing and/or the Cataclysm did something to render the Door more likely to open (which is possible).