The Future of PvE Elitism?

[draxynnic]

Aye, those skills may still mean that combinations are available to one race that aren't available to others.

Consider the skill that was mentioned in the interview: "Prayer to Kormir" is apparently a weak condition-removal skill. Now, while it's not the case now, the early warrior meta tended to be /Mo or /N for low-level condition removal, so that the warrior can remove crippling conditions without having to bother the Monks.

Now, if a similar meta develops in GW2...well, we know human warriors will be able to carry that weak condition removal as a racial (unless that's changed), which gives them the option to take what would otherwise be the next-most-popular secondary and get the best of both worlds, something that other races might not be able to do. So a skill that is fairly weak in isonalte can still end up having a major impact.

And if there are only 6 professions in GW2, that's 30 combinations of race and primary profession - and all indications are that getting a character to the point of being viable for endgame content will involve much more time and investment than in GW1 (especially before the introduction of titles). If you can't shift primary profession, I could see this leading to a lot of time investment required to keep up with a shifting meta.

On the other hand, MMOs with long buildup times such as the 800 pound gorilla seem to manage, so perhaps it will turn out that the longer time required to develop and endgame character will result in less expectation for a "perfect" character (since if they take longer to make there'll be less of them, and even the most discriminatory party leaders are forced to choose between a viable character now and the possibility of waiting for hours before a "perfect" character arrives if at all). Or it could be that those other games do have similar problems, and I just haven't heard of them due to, y'know, not playing them.

[Rick Batman]

Any game where there is group content and those groups are not random is subject to this.

People who feel they want to do things that are harder, or they want to do them faster, or they feel they have no patience for X, the reason doesn't matter. If you let people choose their party, there will be some parties that are elitist.

The best cure is to network. Find or form your own group of people to tackle non-soloable challenges, and then you don't have to deal with people's expectations.

[Neon]

It will certainly still be the case, as this is an issue with the players rather than with the game itself. While when you are playing with people you know, who know themselves what they are doing you have room to experiment with different builds, techniques, pathways etc.

However when you are playing with PUGs things really need to be standardised to avoid failure as there is a much higher probability that someone will make a mistake. If you do a run the same way over and over these mistakes are easier to avoid in the first place and to recover from.

[niuniu]

Have dynamic content. Instances that change, encounters that evolve and mobs that develop resistances or learn and react to commonly used skills. We've seen this on a small scale, hints of it. But nothing yet has really all out went for it (not that I've played anyway).

PvE could be an incredible past-time if there were some really dedicated developers and thinkers on it. PvE in it's current format in MMOs isn't anything inspiring, but I'm pretty sure it will make a comeback in a big way some day, just needs a breakthrough. Maybe after I've stopped gaming.

[raspberry jam]

Originally Posted by niuniu

Have dynamic content. Instances that change, encounters that evolve and mobs that develop resistances or learn and react to commonly used skills. We've seen this on a small scale, hints of it. But nothing yet has really all out went for it (not that I've played anyway).

It's called PvP you should try it But I agree, a dynamic PvE world would be awesome.

[Orsa]

This wont become an issue for atleast 6 months i say. It will take a while for wikis to be updated, builds to be made, builds to be tested and sorted and then for the best builds to spread and become widely known. After that i dont see what else is stopping it happening all over, if you cant beat them, join them :P

[TriggerSad]

The problem I see with a dynamic PvE world is that as one point, wouldn't it get too complicated?
And with added content that includes new areas and mobs, then wouldn't it get worse?

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

It's called PvP you should try it But I agree, a dynamic PvE world would be awesome.

What's the point of making stupid remarks like 'it's called PvP try it?', when we're talking about PvE? Last I heard PvP wasn't about dynamic NPCs.

Maybe you thought it sounded really kewl in your head?

[Mustache Mayhem]

to bring the mobs up to that level.. your looking at people who can barely hold a pencil roid raging over and over like on the guru forum.. alot of the hardcore wouldn't mind- but if the builds they take off the wiki take any sort of skill to master.. you can expect massive mouthbreathing rage and possible quits

that's why we have all the cons and pve skills today.. it's to help this group stay in the game =] anet isn't dumb they know their audience.. think we should just accept that cause it isn't going to happen

raspberry pointed out.. pvp is where you need to go if you want that kind of a challenge.. me myself I'd love it if we didn't have cons and pve skills- you'd see who was really good in the pve game again like back in it's hayday

you make it too hard though- you lose too many people.. make it too easy- you lose too many people =] imo

[Trub]

The Future of PvE Elitism?

There will always be good players, and better players.
There will be players that exploit, and players that leech.
I don't worry myself about others feelings of title in a game, I just play it to have fun..
(English is one tough language yanno, my apologies.))

[Balefire]

Well, I can certainly relate to the whole pve elitism problem. I only have to mention the fact that I'm a pve based mesmer player and you can already tell where I'm going with this.

The worst experience I've ever had with it was during the hayday of ursanway when EOTN was just getting steamrolled by teams of 6 ursan and 2 HB monks. My norn rank wasn't all that high and I was looking for a group to do a HM dungeon. I finally got added to a group (5 ursans, 2HB monks and myself) only to have them discuss, as if I wasn't even there, whether to replace me with another HB monk hero. Long story short, they ended up taking me but then two of them decided to leave about 20min into the dungeon which meant the rest of us had to start over and find more players...

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by niuniu

What's the point of making stupid remarks like 'it's called PvP try it?', when we're talking about PvE? Last I heard PvP wasn't about dynamic NPCs.

Maybe you thought it sounded really kewl in your head?

If you want dynamic, evolving, and challenging play, you have to play against humans. That's common knowledge for every game, electronic or not.

[Corsair]

Left for Dead actually does a fairly good job of evolving a bit. The Director (their program that decides when/how to spawn) is fond of sending the best possible zombie to screw you over at the time. It is harsh and scales itself to how well the group is doing at the time. That being said, it only has limited adaptability.

[niuniu]

Originally Posted by Lurker

If you want dynamic, evolving, and challenging play, you have to play against humans. That's common knowledge for every game, electronic or not.

Nonsense. Ever played chess v a computer? It's more challenging than most people you will ever play. PvE hasn't had any serious attention in any MMO I've played recently. There just isn't enough creative thought, or cross-referencing to other genres.

The game's community it largely to blame, most players can't see past their own nose (as evidenced by your post) and consider PvP the only worthwhile endeavour - PvP, that's usually pre-determined by build in GW, or in other MMOs, by gear, or numbers.

[Lurker]

Righteous as you wish to act, PvE does not compare to PvP in terms of dynamic and challenging play. As raspberry jam brought up, the kind of gameplay some people seem to be looking for out of PvE already exists in the PvP game. This is, in part, because PvE in games is designed to be completed, rather than designed to actually be able to defeat the player (which contrasts to chess, which simulates an actual 'duel' or however you wish to call it rather than presenting a situation).

This is not to say that PvE cannot come close or be developed to mimic PvP, as we've already seen that in GW1. As the post you originally quoted said, dynamic PvE would be a great addition to gameplay. You should probably read past the part that was said lightheartedly before acting aggressive.

[JR]

Originally Posted by niuniu

Nonsense. Ever played chess v a computer? It's more challenging than most people you will ever play.

Apples and oranges. Chess is a heavily structured and constrained game, in which you could feasibly flow-chart every single possible move. A good human player is essentially emulating a computers calculations, based on memory of combinations of moves and prediction of what their opponent will do.

In an MMO this is not the case at all. There are an almost infinite number of possibilities, making it impossible to flowchart, and thus a human opponent will always give you much greater depth and much more of a challenge.

[pumpkin pie]

Originally Posted by Lurker

This is not to say that PvE cannot come close or be developed to mimic PvP,

Yes it can! hire many people to play as the NPC and monsters

[Olvi]

Originally Posted by Lurker

As raspberry jam brought up, the kind of gameplay some people seem to be looking for out of PvE already exists in the PvP game.

Indeed, the most awesome thing about PvP is to come across a really good player whose skill in PvP mostly comes from being unpredictable. He doesn't hit up Lightning Reflexes the minute you start pounding him, instead saving it for a key moment to waste the enemy's key skill or to use a healing skill/res signet without interruptions.

Something like that would be insanely hard to do in PvE due to the fact that we're looking at computer generated, programmed beings. It is possible to define conditions and actions based on that (from DA:O: Ally health >50% = Use Ability: Heal) but it goes ever so far and apparently, doesn't prevent getting stuck onto a wall.

Technology is moving forward fast, sure, but I personally haven't heard anyone making a virtual AI that is able to behave in as unpredictable and complex way as a human being.

[Geikamir]

Well, it doesn't have to be that advanced.

Something as simple as having more randomized spawn points (kind of like Oni), have randomized skills (or a few predetermined sets), and different collection of professions for each mob (instead of the same herd in the same place every time).

[raspberry jam]

Originally Posted by niuniu

What's the point of making stupid remarks like 'it's called PvP try it?', when we're talking about PvE? Last I heard PvP wasn't about dynamic NPCs.

Maybe you thought it sounded really kewl in your head?

The point of it was to make a joke. I find your reaction interesting did I touch a sore toe?

On topic, the way to make PvE dynamic is large-scale, multilevel AI. The purpose of that AI not being primarily to defeat or even challenge the players, but to make it seem like the NPCs are alive. Example:

The players are trying to get from point A to point B for whatever reason, but there's some fortress with bad guys in the way. They bump into a patrol and combat ensues, quickly won by the players. They keep moving and it just so happens that another patrol walks by the dead bodies of the first one. The leader thinks that something is up and sounds the alarm - he sends a runner back to the fortress commander, and suddenly all hell breaks loose and multiple patrols are sent out to scour the surrounding area and perhaps find the players, who are by now excited and running for their lives. All this is done in a fluid, dynamic way, not in the extremely mechanical seen in GW1 (the Riverside Province mission watchtowers for example).

...Of course, this is a persistent world. On the other side of the fortress we have another player party, preparing for an assault on the gates, thinking about the difficult battle ahead... when they suddenly see most of the force guarding the gate start running towards the other side of the fortress, in response to the alarm, only leaving a handful of enemies as a token guard. Of course, the players have no idea why this happened, but not wishing to look in a gift horse's mouth, they charge the gate, kill the 5-6 guys left behind, rush in, storm the central citadel, kill the fortress commander, and take his carefully guarded (well, he thought, anyway) treasure, before the main force returns from their search!

The best part? You can set up such a diversion yourself.

This type of AI is often seen in RTS games etc.