Is "Grind" considered content?

[Cebbar]

Grind. We all have our own ideas about it and most of us seem to be very passionate about it one way or another. After reading around a few other forums I thought it would be interesting to set up a poll on this.

My definition of Grind is doing the same thing over and over, hundreds or even thousands of times, for precious little gain when there is no other way to receive the same / similar rewards. This could be repeatedly killing monsters for a certain drop that you need to continue, or working on maxing out a title that gives you next to nothing.

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To give an applied example, imagine if the only way to get the Asura title track was to kill monsters. Say, the max tier was 100,000,000 points, and for reaching said tier your PvE-only skills did 3 more damage than they did at 200,000 points. Add in the fact that you only have a 20% chance for each monster to add 5 points to the title track and I would consider the Asura track to be grind. It's not as it stands, since you have Dungeons and Books to help you along the way, which really don't take all that long in the grand scheme of things. To my definition, the only aspect of Guild Wars which fits this model would be the Allegiance tracks, and even they've improved dramatically over the course of the last year, with regard to the array of ways in which you can increase your Rank.

Ok, time to come clean. About a week ago a couple of Guild Wars Alliance members got me into playing Aion. Going into it fully with the knowledge that Grind was a distinct possibility, I set myself up with a couple of months and braced myself. I have to admit, the first 20 levels have been great. No grind whatsoever. Quest rewards give you everything you need, and aside from a few things being a little on the pricey side, and my lazy ass missing the fantastic feature that is free map travel, I'm enjoying it.

Having read ahead a little it certainly seems as though that will change. Two months may well be more than enough time, but hey, I enjoy it so far and it makes a nice change.

Reading through various Aion forums is what started me off thinking about Grind. Seems to me there are two distinct types of player. Those Hardcore players, and the Casual players.

From observing discussion, the Hardcore players always argue that Casual players want "something for nothing", and there's often a suggestion somewhere along the line about "if you can't handle the grind, go play Hello Kitty online". The Casual players don't understand why their gaming experience should be limited by the fact that they can't play enough to be able to grind enough for the higher end rewards. Clearly, the more Hardcore the player, the more they want the grind to remain, such that their efforts were not in vain.

From observation then, Hardcore players seem to consider grind to be content. Casual players do not and will argue to the bitter end. There certainly seems to be a balance to be struck here - and probably a balance which will always be unattainable regardless how hard game developers try to get it right.

I'm genuinely interested to find out what the feeling on this is within the Guild Wars community. Discuss!

[Beta Sprite]

Given your description of grind, I do not fine that to be content.


The kind of grind I've seen so far in Guild Wars is mostly fine with me. The only grind in GW that I haven't been fine with so far has been the Treasure Hunter track. There is no way to accelerate it other than running all of those chests, which is unreasonable to me. At least the Kurzick and Luxon faction can be gained while playing a competitive game (although the fastest way is speed clears...).

To continue commenting on the OP, I am a casual player. I pick up the game on and off these days while I wait for GW2, with only 13 maxed titles. As cool as Treasure Hunter sounds to me (as a title), the grind has put me off of really attempting to get it.

[SweetZoid]

Grind exist in all games and grind is necessary to have something to do,even if you dont want grind it becomes grind anyway.

In GW1 you can grind quests,missions,pvp,farm mobs for items and money and items for armor you craft. Everything becomes grind if you do it for hours. In eye of the north you need glcial stones for the glacial gloves and thats grind.

[JR]

Grind is content, repeated.

[Arkhan]

I consider it content but it should not be repeated for to long otherwise it will feel redundant.

[IDarko]

I consider it to be content.

btw, my answer is not based on whether i like it or not.

[Malchior Devenholm]

IMO-Grind is indeed content.

However, the amount of grind is crucial to whether or not it can be "fun." The amount of grind in Aion for example, not fun. Vanilla WoW was fun. The Burning Crusade, a little much with the reputations.

Also, even though grind is content, it is by far the least-appealing content available. It's like, if you got nothing better to do for the time being, go grind. Content needs to be developed more around character development and progression of character and story. The grind can be inserted sporadically throughout this development.

[Cebbar]

Originally Posted by JR

Grind is content, repeated.

I maybe phrased the question slightly badly, but no matter. Of course the virtual world, quests, and monsters are content, but the act of grinding? Arkhan said it - "redundant"... Grind causes redundancy of content. I guess the balance comes with deciding how far to go before the level of redundancy drives players away?

[Etta]

Grind for me is not a content, it's just happened to be in every damn games that branded themselves RPG. GW has an optional one, do or don't is doesn't matter you can still finish the game and that is just swell.

I was gonna say mass effect 2 doesn't have one as well then I remember the damn mining scan thingy.

Off topic: Cebbar? I like Celestial Beaver better!

[pumpkin pie]

Grind is Repeated Contents.
Grind is a way of keeping players hooked to the game.
Grind is an obstacle to something "shiny" that ultimately all MMO players want.
Grind is a way of keeping players playing the game. It can be eliminated if developer isn't too lazy to come up with new contents for their game, say, every week. IE: You are promised the "shiny" after every missions/quests, every week there are new missions/quests with new "shiny", which is impossible, who would do that? NO ONE, so grind happens.


Luckily, game like Guild Wars, I can totally ignore the grind, choose to play or not, whenever I want to or not, except when there's a festival and it falls on the real life holiday .... GRRR.


Off - Topic
Why are brocolli and harpoon Tags of this thread?

[Malchior Devenholm]

Originally Posted by Cebbar

I maybe phrased the question slightly badly, but no matter. Of course the virtual world, quests, and monsters are content, but the act of grinding? Arkhan said it - "redundant"... Grind causes redundancy of content. I guess the balance comes with deciding how far to go before the level of redundancy drives players away?

Precisely.

Also to be considered is the reward given for such redundancy. If the reward is sufficient enough, people will still grind a decent if not above-average amount of time. The reward makes it all feel like it was worth it. The particular type of redundancy is important as well, and how it can be dealt with.

Some examples...

1. Experience grinding-Kill X amount of monsters until you get Y amount of experience to level. This is the worst type of grinding. When killing mobs is the only form of experience available (either due to lack of or completion of all nearby quests), the player is effectively funneled into this grind. He/She has no way to further progress into the game, until the grind is completed and the level is achieved.

2. Quest grinding-Kill X amount of monsters until quest is complete. This is generally the most acceptable or most effective method of hiding "grind" in a game. Most often, you won't be exceeding 20-30 monsters at any one single time, so while you may kill 1000 of this particular monster during your entire play time, you are doing so in bite-size chunks that make each experience "different." Also, quests generally contain some sort of tangible reward whether it be in gold or items. This further fuels the player into completing the quest.

Now, if quest grinding is done too much, either by making the quota required too high, or by having too many quests kill the same monster for no reason other than to complete the quest and get the reward, then quest grinding starts to feel like experience grinding. This is because you no longer care for the reward; you simply want to be done killing rats so you can move further into the game. Henceforth, finish the quest to leave the area, earn the EXP to level, or seeking find another quest. All of the above choices are time wasted in character progression.

3. Crafting grinding-Crafting is unique in that most of the time it is optional. So you don't have to grind to level 100 in crafting to reach the endgame. Crafting also doesn't have set parameters to how much or how little a player is willing to craft at a particular time. You could make 1 chainmail or 10 chainmail for a crafting session; it's your decision. Eventually, it may take 100 chainmail to get to the next crafting level, but if you don't just break down and stop, you will reach that milestone eventually.

The key to breaking the crafting monotony is to tie it into or merge its components into the natural progression by level. This is one thing I felt Vanilla WoW did very well indeed. During my entire progression to level 60, not once did I have to grind my crafting for an exorbitant amount of time. I gathered the materials for my crafting while I was questing and exploring the world. And each recipe I crafted benefitted me as a player throughout my entire progression to the end game. (Whether in gold or actual use) The crafting and the EXP leveling worked together.

The problem with crafting comes when the grind of crafting becomes directly required to progress further in the game. Whether this be from producing sufficient equipment or earning enough gold to function in the world, this is where most people turn away from their crafting. Crafting should NEVER be required for any character progression. It is simply an optional tool that can be used to enhance that progression, should the player put in the time and effort.

[Cebbar]

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Luckily, game like Guild Wars, I can totally ignore the grind, choose to play or not

That is one very redeeming feature about Guild Wars. There's no need to bore yourself into oblivion if you simply want to stroll through the main storyline. Possible exception of "And a Hero Shall Lead Them", but I never found that to be much of an issue anyway if you take all the bounties whenever you're out and about.

More to the point, even the most casual player can at least complete the storyline and feel as though they achieved something, and got their £25 worth of entertainment value out of it.

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Off - Topic
Why are brocolli and harpoon Tags of this thread?

You win the prize for noticing. Or, you would, if I had a prize.

I'm having a bit of an abstract day.

Originally Posted by Etta

Off topic: Cebbar? I like Celestial Beaver better!

Became a bit of a mouthful so I've been refining it!

[Naxle Smith]

To me, grind is a sort of semi-content that fills up the gaps. It's there until someone bothers to put in something better.Obviously no substitute to the real thing.

[Dee Cazo]

Its not that I enjoy grind as much as I enjoy playing through the course of a game and constantly getting stronger/improving.

An appeal to some players (I say some because that "some" players tend to fill up these forums making them looking like a majority)but when I hit level 20 and other than new skills and weapons I really can't improve myself anymore I feel like the game is missing an element.

If Anet takes an approach where they suggest you should be a certain level before carrying further and its like 1-3 levels with a mixture of perfect balancing where if you go along with the story and everything you should be able to play with no grind eventhough it would help to just explore and train , then more power to them.

[ne33us]

From my point of view :
Grinding = the game made do it.
Farming = it was my choice to do it.

For example killing foes to level up is grinding because most of the games out there don't have enough quests with XP rewards to meet the level XP needed to level up.
Obviously reaching a certain level to get better skills or access to armor etc is not a choice for the player, it's a "must do".

On the other hand killing foes to get purely cosmetic items or items that gives one player only a small advantage over the player next to him is definitely a players choice.
Obviously running around wearing glacial gloves or fighting with a gold weapon with +30HP stats instead of a blue one with +30HP (or even +28HP) stats is almost negligible.

So as far as I'm conserned, please let there NOT be any grinding (the usual MMO style) in GW2.

[Slash Beast]

Originally Posted by JR

Grind is content, repeated.

Which adds to replay value. IMO grind can be a good thing.

[Bryant Again]

Grind is a heavily subjective term. I consider all the title-hunting in GW to be heavily grindy. Do I consider it content? Not really.

[Sparky]

is grind content? um, i dunno...

what does it matter what the grind is? its in your games and its here to stay because it cativates the gamers. it keeps you playing, trying, creates more challenge and encourages you to master the content.

take grind away from a good game and you end up with something like 'God of War'. a great game, but very linear, short, and with little replay value. you can repeat it but theres no point because they dont give you something shiny for it. once you finish it, yer done and move on to something else.

[Konig Des Todes]

How I see it, there are two kinds of grind.

The first kind of grind is content and is unavoidable - it is simply the replay value of doing something. If you play through the whole game more than once, it will become grind, no matter what. This kind of grind is unavoidable and shouldn't be a main focus, but how long the content becomes this kind of grind should be a focus and is constantly expanding with more and more things to do, but it is impossible to remove this.

The second kind of grind is the constantly repetitive grind. That is, things like farming, working for a point-based objective that cannot be done with a few goes, flipping McDonalds burgers, etc. These things include character levels, titles, etc. and is in every MMO - in fact, most MMOs revolve around this. This kind of grind isn't necessarily "bad" but that depends on how much of this grind there is. The fewer, the better, but just simply having this kind of grind is not negative. This kind of grind should always be either optional or able to be achieved without active repetition (one example being the GW1 level system, able to get to Level 20 with ease while just playing through the main game - no need for this kind of grind to be active).

As such, grind is both content and not. It's more of an adjective than a noun, and content is a noun. As such, grind can be content (in terms of what kind of content there is), but technically isn't. The first kind of grind is purely an adjective and references the replay value of a game, the more replay value, the more grind, but what's important there is whether that grind is fun or not. The second kind of grind is a state of content, and can be used as an adjective or a noun, and the fewer of this (at least, in the mandatory or gameplay beneficial (i.e., PvE-only skills linked to titles) standpoint) the better.

[Faer]

Originally Posted by Cebbar

Ok, time to come clean. About a week ago a couple of Guild Wars Alliance members got me into playing Aion. Going into it fully with the knowledge that Grind was a distinct possibility, I set myself up with a couple of months and braced myself. I have to admit, the first 20 levels have been great. No grind whatsoever. Quest rewards give you everything you need, and aside from a few things being a little on the pricey side, and my lazy ass missing the fantastic feature that is free map travel, I'm enjoying it.

First twenty levels is a couple of days. Next few levels take a bit longer, then you hit 25 and get to a new area and things go quickly for about a day until... Well. You'll find out soon enough.

At any rate, grind is certainly content. It is not necessarily enjoyable content, however, and some people actually play games to enjoy themselves.