The Spider Deity

[XxxTenebraexxX]

Within the Realm of Torment lies hints of a Spider deity, possibly dethroned by Abaddon in the same way that Kormir dethroned him and Grenth toppled Dhuum. Grenth has, ever since, held Dhuum imprisoned within the Hall of Judgment...though Dhuum has proved himself to still pose an adequate threat despite both this, and the fact that he's no longer a god.

With this in mind, it's possible that Gods can't be killed, nor their power completely stripped away...or that the Gods aren't actually as greatly omnipotent as they may lead us to believe and are, infact, more on a mortal equivalent in strength than we realize.

Despite the possibility that this may mean Abaddon, a god who was stronger than Dhuum, may still exist in a similar manner as Dhuum himself now does...what of the Spider Deity? Perhaps, like Grenth, Abaddon has kept this being imprisoned within the Realm of Torment.

If so...what if his fall from grace has somehow freed her, or awakened her once again...

Thoughts?

[Arghore]

She is called Arachnia ...

asfar as im concerned anything can happen, and it be nice to see her return (or not ofcourse )

If you are interested i would advise you to read up on her in these threads:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/l...light=Arachnia

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/n...light=Arachnia

[XxxTenebraexxX]

Oh my, she's a pretty one...

*Goes to read*

Thank you for that...and something else:

Dhuum
Menzies
Abaddon
Arachnia

Two more and we have a dark pantheon...which rivals the current, seeing as how both Dhumm and Menzies cause quite a bit of problems for their counterparts, and I'm sure Abaddon will do the same despite being defeated and no longer a God.

[C410V1370]

That concept art is great.

check this...


Doom 3 Vagary.

[Camkam]

If you look at the Arachnia concept art, she has the same hair that Abaddon has behind her head, except Abaddon's sticks up.

[Konig Des Todes]

Arachnia is dead, won't return in person (though we may hear of her). She's also only known via the gw.dat, and thus may not even be canon lore. For the two threads Arghore linked, they are of the same things, but the second is more up to date and is about an entire insectoid pantheon, not just one god.

And I wouldn't really call it a dark pantheon, so much as they are fallen gods (excluding Menzies) and nothing supports Abaddon being alive. In fact, the gw.dat hints that we were fighting his soul in Nightfall, not his body (or should I say, he was remaking his body, which is why he was just a head and hands), which I pointed out here.

If Arachnia and the Harvestman's Lair are canon, then it may be that there was a previous pantheon before the current one (predecessors of the current six gods, Abaddon, and Dhuum) which were insectoid beings, which included arachnia, and who's bodies are throughout the Domain of Fear. But again, it isn't known if those things are canon, and ANet won't talk on them.

So yeah, of the "evil gods" that we know of, only Dhuum and Menzies (the later isn't even known to be a god) are certain to be around, and Abaddon might be around but that isn't likely.

It's also possible that, since the concept art believed to be Arachnia (it isn't known to be of her, by the way, it's just a spider-like thing) comes from the Factions Conceptart.org thread then Arachnia might have been the original idea for who was behind everything, but it was changed to Abaddon who was actually hinted at in the game previously, which would explain the few spider-like minions and qualities of Abaddon (the hair, the Torment Claws, etc.).

[Arghore]

It's almost asif Arachnia was the prime-being (god if you will) in Torment and that Abaddon gained in strength by defeating her, and only after defeating her did he gain enough strength to orchestrate the events that we play through... Nightfall is him using Arachnia's power (the spider theme is very obvious) to have him speed up his return ...

Something like, the gods fight Abaddon and the large ammounts of magic tear open the Vortex which works like a wormhole to the torment system (a place where insect like creatures have been fighting for dominance for ages, as its not just Arachnid bits scattered around) ... After the gods defeat abaddon Grenth Absorbs Water Magic (but seeing there isnt another vessle around, Abaddon is left being the god of secrets... they push him into the vortex to get rid of him ... Still, The gods unknowing where their defeated foe has gone dare not to enter Torment and instead send the Forgotten after him to make sure that where ever he is, he wont be able to enter the vortex to return...

Abaddon finds himself in torment and eventually makes contact with the mergonites, a non insect species living there feeding upon tormented spirits (that go there why?, why dont tormented spirits go to the Underworld?) Together with these mergonites he starts a campaign to conquer Torment and do away with the Insect beings, eventually slaying Arachnia and absorbing her power; with this new power Abaddon then starts to plot his goal, either return to Tyria for revenge, OR, bring Tyria to him and have his revenge...

[BaconSoda]

'Eh, I wouldn't say that the Six Gods were afraid of Torment. It is said that they created it to house Abaddon and that its current situation is only a recent development. They sent the Forgotten there as they sent them to Tyria at the "start" of the world: to safeguard the land and make sure nothing catastrophic happens because they had more important things to do (make more worlds?). The Margonites, though, were not separate beings from Abaddon and did not travel to torment by their own will. They were his devout followers which traveled the vast Crystal Sea before it was the Crystal Desert. In his rebellion, Abaddon convinced the Margonites to denounce the other gods as deities and by doing so dragged them into Torment with him, twisting their human shape into what we see today: an infertile, horribly tormented parody of a human. Though it was by their help that he broke free from his prison, they are, by no means, insectoids or worshipers of Arachnia.

Though, Arachnia may be a good thought about why the Margonites have insectoid-like features...

[Arghore]

Well the thing is ... "It is said that they created torment" ... and seeing im mostly an atheist in nature, i dont just believe stories of the old and mostly forgotten ... as allot of those stories got twisted and turned throughout time, true allot hold some value or truth in them... but say, if the god war created the vortex to an already existing place (which is a realm where mostly insects live), wouldn't it from a perspective of the commoner living in Elona seem like the gods 'created this world, as previous to the vortex this place 'did not exist' (since it was unknown it existed) ...

As for the Margonites and the followers of Abaddon that sailed the crystal sea, if the old followers of Abaddon were to be called Margonites, wouldn't any NEW followers of Abaddon be called the same (from the perspective of the Elona commoner) ... similar to how the Wurm Boss that lives in the shiver peaks, is called Jormugand, and as such bares a very close resemblance to the Dragon Jormag ... which makes (to me at least) it point out that, tales of a 'Dragon of Snow and Ice' called Jormag lived on after the dragons went to hibernate, when people came across the Worm as being the most ferocious 'dragon/snake' like creature in the Shiverpeaks, it got to bare a similar name ...

[Ravious]

I wonder if Arachnia was like a god-mother to the other insectoid gods. I mean, what are "gods" anyway. The more the term gets used to apply to Arachnia, Dhuum, Menzies, Kormir, and Co. the more ubiquitous it seems in a powerful entity. Then we have to take in to account the slain demi-gods of Abaddon... would they have become gods?

I don't know... this little black hole really gets me. The lore isn't official, but how deeply do we look before we start seeing retcons of a sort. Was the history of the gods as it stands now present from the start? Will we ever get answers?

[XxxTenebraexxX]

Originally Posted by Ravious

I wonder if Arachnia was like a god-mother to the other insectoid gods. I mean, what are "gods" anyway. The more the term gets used to apply to Arachnia, Dhuum, Menzies, Kormir, and Co. the more ubiquitous it seems in a powerful entity. Then we have to take in to account the slain demi-gods of Abaddon... would they have become gods?

I don't know... this little black hole really gets me. The lore isn't official, but how deeply do we look before we start seeing retcons of a sort. Was the history of the gods as it stands now present from the start? Will we ever get answers?

My belief is that there are only six positions in which stand for "gods". Abaddon was still a god until Kormir took his place, where as Menzies desires to usurp his brother and absorb his power...hinting towards the possibility that Menzies is like Grenth was before he usurped Dhuum. There has only ever been, that we are aware of, six places of power...and seemingly an inability to absorb more than one place into a single individual. So no more, nor less, than six.

Another possibility in combination to such is that, perhaps, this power isn't simply a status...but the souls of true deities. Perhaps that, originally, there were six true gods that were born with these powers...truly omnipotent beings. It's possible that they were so treacherous that the lesser races eventually overthrew them...but couldn't destroy them. Instead, they consumed their "soul" into themselves...becoming the type of "Gods" we now know. However, maybe there's a catch.

Perhaps the soul of the true god festers within...slowly taking root within the "host" and influencing them...slowly turning them more and more like the origin of the power they now wield until, ultimately, they become that god...a resurrection of sorts. This may explain why Abaddon seemingly holds characteristics of Arachnia, and why he had gone so chaotic towards the end. Perhaps Dhuum too was simply a product of loosing the inner battle with the deity who's power he contained.

This may, infact, be the fate of all gods...to eventually succumb to the "demon" within and become permanently effected by the original god's personality, explaining why Dhuum and Abaddon both remain "dark" despite their fall. (Though despite the concept art, we don't know if Abaddon makes a return)

Regardless, if this is the case, it may be possible that Arachnia IS the power in which Abaddon absorbed, and then Kormir absorbed. It could also be possible that the Ancient Dragons are, infact, the true sources of these god-like powers. I'm not sure as to how many Ancient Dragons there are, but one wields power over death, Primordus seems very akin to Balthazar, perhaps the others hold similar powers to the other deities...in which case, if there are six ancient dragons, a connection is quite possible. They may, infact, be the beings in which the gods leech their power from...explaining why they are so powerful as is.

[Ravious]

Yeah, the absorbing mechanism is one to consider. I wonder if it's why Kormir became Kormyr?

[XxxTenebraexxX]

Originally Posted by Ravious

Yeah, the absorbing mechanism is one to consider. I wonder if it's why Kormir became Kormyr?

Well, lets put it this way...if my theories hold true, expect her to look vastly different in Guildwars II. Her visage should hold some similarities to Abaddon, and Arachnia. The tendril-like hair seems to be a commonly passed down trait...and if Kormir holds the same by GWII, I may be onto something.

I would expect her to tie her hair back though, so keep a close eye out for tightly pulled back tendrils :P

[Konig Des Todes]

I'll have to read through all the posts later, but a few things to note: It's likely Kormyr is just a misspelling, like Xytan was of Zhaitan.

Secondly, it is said Arachnia is older than Abaddon and the other five gods (unknown for Dhuum though), which is interesting given that Melandru is attributed to creating Tyria (and is the only god to do such) and therefore if Arachnia is canon (the more I look into it, the less canon it seems to be and the more likely it is that Arachnia was the original "puppetmaster" behind Prophecies and Factions) then Arachnia predates Tyria, and possibly the elder dragons - if the tales that Melandru created Tyria is true.

If we add in the fact that the original known six gods (Dhuum being questionable) are "older than humanity but not by much" then either humanity is a LOT older than we suspect, as are the gods, or the tale is false.

Another thing which is unsure to be canon would be the screaming spans - the description of such says that the skulls are of primordial beasts that Abaddon slew and very much hints at Giganticus Lupicus skulls, which further hints to humanity and the gods being far older than we think. But again, that's not known to be canon.

And Tenebrae, there are five elder dragons (that we know of), so it is unlikely that it is, at least, a 1:1 power origin from dragon to god, and given what we know of the facets, it's more likely that the origin of the gods' power is somehow related to the Forgotten and the facets create a form of the gods' power.

Also, your theory of the eventual decay of each gods' state of being is not your own, sad to say, as draxynnic came up with this on a whole a while back in GW1Guru when it was brought to his attention that some people think that Kormir will be taken over by Abaddon over in GWO.

[XxxTenebraexxX]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'll have to read through all the posts later, but a few things to note: It's likely Kormyr is just a misspelling, like Xytan was of Zhaitan.

Secondly, it is said Arachnia is older than Abaddon and the other five gods (unknown for Dhuum though), which is interesting given that Melandru is attributed to creating Tyria (and is the only god to do such) and therefore if Arachnia is canon (the more I look into it, the less canon it seems to be and the more likely it is that Arachnia was the original "puppetmaster" behind Prophecies and Factions) then Arachnia predates Tyria, and possibly the elder dragons - if the tales that Melandru created Tyria is true.

I'm not sure that it is...

Giganticus Lupicus had already died out before the Forgotten came to Tyria...and there was no mention of them while the gods were "shaping the world." Though this is purely speculation, I don't believe that any of the gods made Tyria...simply reshaped it as they seen fit throughout the ages.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If we add in the fact that the original known six gods (Dhuum being questionable) are "older than humanity but not by much" then either humanity is a LOT older than we suspect, as are the gods, or the tale is false.

I'm still going with the false concept. I think the gods keep the history of Tyria, and the godhood for that matter, very vague on purpose...and I assume it to be far easier to usurp them than they portray it to be. I think that their statement to Kormir was even, more or less, a ruse to ensure that the other races believed that a god must bestow the ability to absorb the power of another god...rather than simply possessing the ability to do so by default.

This ensures that powerful adversaries don't strive to usurp the gods, creating more people akin to Dhuum and Menzies, who already know that they can take godhood by force.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Another thing which is unsure to be canon would be the screaming spans - the description of such says that the skulls are of primordial beasts that Abaddon slew and very much hints at Giganticus Lupicus skulls, which further hints to humanity and the gods being far older than we think. But again, that's not known to be canon.

Indeed, I was recently reading about that myself...very sketchy information when you get back that far, little to nothing solid.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And Tenebrae, there are five elder dragons (that we know of), so it is unlikely that it is, at least, a 1:1 power origin from dragon to god, and given what we know of the facets, it's more likely that the origin of the gods' power is somehow related to the Forgotten and the facets create a form of the gods' power.

So there's five dragons we know of...with a potential sixth? My speculation falls apart if there are more than six dragons...not if there's only five that we know of thus far :P

That sill leaves room for the possibility. However, it's only one of COUNTLESS, including yours, of course.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, your theory of the eventual decay of each gods' state of being is not your own, sad to say, as draxynnic came up with this on a whole a while back in GW1Guru when it was brought to his attention that some people think that Kormir will be taken over by Abaddon over in GWO.

It's my theory because I came to it on my own...thus, it's my own thought. I never claimed to be the individual who originally thought of such, nor was I aware that anyone else had pondered along a similar path. It was more a manner of speaking rather than saying "this is mine!"

Be that as it may, I went a little more beyond "Kormir could be taken over by Abaddon", in expressing that perhaps the power they absorb isn't so much a "status" as it is a being unto itself...a true god imprisoned within a mortal that uses that power for themselves...yet is slowly consumed by such. That it's possible that this process has continued throughout the ages, far longer than the current gods existence, pantheons falling to new wielders of the positions over and over again.

As I've said many times before...I don't believe Abaddon is gone, and someone else posted something about a new concept art depicting Abaddon in GWII. Not cannon, of course, but he may take up a similar place as Dhuun afterall. Which, in my eyes, makes more sense than his ultimate destruction...again, simply my opinion.

[Konig Des Todes]

Tenebrae, if possible, please refrain from splitting single posts into multiple quotes and responding to things individually. Doing that oftenly create quote wars which push people from the discussions.

That said, regarding the Giganticus Lupicus and the gods: it is very much possible that they are from the same time frame, while there may be a seven thousand knowledge gap, and would even go with your and Thalador's belief that the gods have "removed knowledge."

Not to mention that if humans come from further south than Cantha, and the fact that GL bones have only been seen in Elona/Tyria, it may be that they lived in the same time, but in different lands (thus never interacted with each other).

Originally Posted by XxxTenebraexxX

I'm still going with the false concept. I think the gods keep the history of Tyria, and the godhood for that matter, very vague on purpose...and I assume it to be far easier to usurp them than they portray it to be. I think that their statement to Kormir was even, more or less, a ruse to ensure that the other races believed that a god must bestow the ability to absorb the power of another god...rather than simply possessing the ability to do so by default.

This ensures that powerful adversaries don't strive to usurp the gods, creating more people akin to Dhuum and Menzies, who already know that they can take godhood by force.

And this had no relation to the age of humanity, which is at the youngest at 786 BE, and Jeff Grubb said himself that gods are older than humanity, but not by much.

Originally Posted by XxxTenebraexxX

So there's five dragons we know of...with a potential sixth? My speculation falls apart if there are more than six dragons...not if there's only five that we know of thus far :P

That sill leaves room for the possibility. However, it's only one of COUNTLESS, including yours, of course.

It's highly improbable for there to be six or more elder dragons. They are said to wake up every 50 years, with the first (primordus) waking up 50 years after EN, and the last (Kralkatorrik) waking up a few years before GW2. If there are more, either it isn't every 50 years (and thus we'd far more than 6) or any more will wake up 50 years after GW2. And how would your theory not fall apart with fewer than 6 dragons? In fact, the powers of the dragons have shown no similarities to the gods' powers.

Also, I wasn't trying to say you were claiming the theory as originally yours. I was just saying that this isn't a new thought, tenchnically none of it is, though you're the first to include Arachnia with these lines of thoughts - and to pointblank combine them.

Originally Posted by XxxTenebraexxX

someone else posted something about a new concept art depicting Abaddon in GWII.

Please tell me where, because I've been in constant observation of GW2 concept art and all Abaddon concept art I've seen is from Nightfall.

[draxynnic]

Arghore: The origin of the Margonites is one of the better-documented origins in the lore - They were originally human followers of Abaddon that were granted the "gift" of becoming Margonites, becoming more powerful and gaining the ability to survive the Sulferous Wastes at the cost of being rendered infertile (as mentioned by The Lost). We also have at least one example of a named human who'd been converted to a demonic Margonite, being Lord Jadoth himself.

I'm also amused at seeing my theory crop up again, although when it was formulated we didn't have the information on the possibly relatively young age of the gods that we do now so I'd incorporated the possibility that some domains were relatively "safe" and non-corruptive, possibly with the original figures still holding those roles, while others have been replaced multiple times. Come to think on it, that may still be the case if the relative age of the gods was on gods in general rather then the specific group as seen before the Exodus - the description of the Gate of Fear suggests that the Domain of Fear was formed when early man was in existence, and it is the domain most strongly connected with Arachnia.

[XxxTenebraexxX]

I typically quote specific fragments to address specified points, it's not so much a means of creating a quote war rather than an attempt to organize thoughts and debate in an easier to read manner.

That said, tis quite possible that Giganticus Lupicus existed during the Gods...and if that's true it would then mean that there was something here before. That is, unless Giganticus Lupicus and the gods existed within the Mists and then migrated to Tyria upon the Gods creation of it. Otherwise, they were both here, on Tyria, before the supposed "creation at the hands of the gods"

Anyway, there's still room for another Ancient Dragon. It may have simply not presented itself yet, for whatever the reason, while having already awoken. Also, it's entirely possible that the sixth simply hasn't awoken yet...and won't throughout the duration of GWII. Who's to say that we have to face them all in one shot? There could be another that, 50 years down the rode, wakes up and gets in a tizzy about whatever we end up doing to its brethren.

Also, I wasn't trying to say you were claiming the theory as originally yours. I was just saying that this isn't a new thought, tenchnically none of it is, though you're the first to include Arachnia with these lines of thoughts - and to pointblank combine them.

Ah, alright...and go me then? :P

Please tell me where, because I've been in constant observation of GW2 concept art and all Abaddon concept art I've seen is from Nightfall.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Abaddon

Not sure what it's all about, I have never seen the image before...but perhaps it is from GW1? Either way, it's odd because it looks drastically different from his normal style, and despite his fleshy arms...he's a huge temple.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

the description of the Gate of Fear suggests that the Domain of Fear was formed when early man was in existence, and it is the domain most strongly connected with Arachnia.

Good point

[Konig Des Todes]

Firstly, there is no room for a sixth dragon in GW2 - Primordus is pointblank stated to be the first to awaken, and you have the order of Primordus, Jormag, Zhaitan, Deep Sea Dragon, Kralkatorrik - there's no spare room, not for GW2 at least.

And if there is another dragon, then we won't learn of it until GW3, if there is one.

Regarding the concept art: That's from Nightfall, nothing new at all and definably not GW2. It's used on the GW2Wiki so that there is more than words there, though I don't even know why there is a page for Abaddon on the GW2Wiki since chances are is that he's dead for good.

[XxxTenebraexxX]

That's what I'm saying...

It's perfectly possible that the last dragon may not even show up during GWII. A bit more realistic, in my eyes, that we end up playing before the entire order awakens...rather than conveniently upon the time in which all are up and roaming about.

As for the concept art, good...I really don't like that look.