Thread of No Topic

[Whisper]

Then again the gift of true sight is only the mantles explanation :P
O_o basic member wtf HERECY!!! ^^ awsome april joke....or is it O_O? NOOO!

Edit: I actually belive that it is as Konig suggested the chosen are picked at random

[Atomisk]

I doubt the chosen are picked at random, as the eye follows the PCs because they hold that "special" quality - not to mention the eye only uses that knockdown effect on certain NPCs... not all of them.

anyone else think that skill balances are canon and are a result of the gods playing poker? or is it just me?

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Envoys are stated to be criminals in "An Empire Divided" as seen here:

I was thinking so, but was working on something else at the same time so I couldn't check it..I think, anyway.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for us not seeing many spirits who don't know of their abilities - aside from their personal "shadow form", we don't see any hidden spirits because, well, we can't see them... I hope you see the silliness of that.

It's not that silly, really. You Ascend, you become Weh No Su, and now you can see spirits around places you previously didn't. It wouldn't be that difficult to do, I would think, to display the effects of Ascension. That being the case, your argument is silly in itself, we should be able to see hidden spirits after we've Ascended or become Weh No Su, and even then, it all falls apart because, well, how would we ever know they were hidden if we can always see them either way after that? For all we know, all the spirits we encounter in the Underworld could be hidden to a normal person.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for the quote on being able to see someone for how they truly are... you quoted the very person who said that line, heck, you quoted the line itself!

"How they truly are"-"who he really is" are not the same. I imagine you'll say you misspelled who there, but given the previous sentences I've been playing off of about this, I doubt it.

The original bit was:
"to see things as they truly are"-Drax
You somewhat remain consistent afterward with this:
"Seeing one for what they truly are could simply mean "seeing past illusions" which would include cloaking devices and a hidden spirit."-You, second post after Drax's.

But as the quoted bit of dialogue proves, this is not precisely what it is described as doing. The ability to see a person for who he really is leans more towards your loyalty detector idea than seeing beyond some mystic veils, in my opinion. Not to mention, being able to see someone's magical potential/aptitude seems like it could do a bit more to cloud the senses, especially depending on the location, than make things clearer. Think of wearing nightvision goggles and then having someone flash a bright light before your eyes, I could see it being somewhat similar once you get this enhanced sense of things.

Although, that we don't...Either means that's a lie about True Sight, it simply wasn't thought of, or it would be more of a nuisance than anything else.

[Konig Des Todes]

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

It's not that silly, really. You Ascend, you become Weh No Su, and now you can see spirits around places you previously didn't. It wouldn't be that difficult to do, I would think, to display the effects of Ascension. That being the case, your argument is silly in itself, we should be able to see hidden spirits after we've Ascended or become Weh No Su, and even then, it all falls apart because, well, how would we ever know they were hidden if we can always see them either way after that? For all we know, all the spirits we encounter in the Underworld could be hidden to a normal person.

You didn't pay attention to the words I italicized. *sigh* Anyways - yes, they could of made a "these NPCs appear if you do xyz" - but for something so... minimal and storyline driven (in which the game focuses on - even the side quests are heavily dependent on the storyline), it would be a waste of time. As you imply, the only way we'd know if we see spirits who are hidden are if we see the spirits only after doing the two respective missions (and/or the spirits go "you can see me?" like Vizu in Tahnnakai Temple).

I wouldn't doubt that the spirits in the Rift/realms of the gods would be hidden to normal people. If they wanted to be.

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

"How they truly are"-"who he really is" are not the same. I imagine you'll say you misspelled who there, but given the previous sentences I've been playing off of about this, I doubt it.

The original bit was:
"to see things as they truly are"-Drax
You somewhat remain consistent afterward with this:
"Seeing one for what they truly are could simply mean "seeing past illusions" which would include cloaking devices and a hidden spirit."-You, second post after Drax's.

But as the quoted bit of dialogue proves, this is not precisely what it is described as doing. The ability to see a person for who he really is leans more towards your loyalty detector idea than seeing beyond some mystic veils, in my opinion. Not to mention, being able to see someone's magical potential/aptitude seems like it could do a bit more to cloud the senses, especially depending on the location, than make things clearer. Think of wearing nightvision goggles and then having someone flash a bright light before your eyes, I could see it being somewhat similar once you get this enhanced sense of things.

Although, that we don't...Either means that's a lie about True Sight, it simply wasn't thought of, or it would be more of a nuisance than anything else.

The ability to see a person for who s/he really is, to me, is the same as the ability to see "how they truly are" - the only word difference is really just "truly" and "really" since the beginning of each phrase are interchangeable. And in my opinion, truly and really are also interchangable.

Regarding the effects of True Sight, my money is on it not being put into consideration for mechanics - much like the blessing by the gods when we fight Abaddon - it's always present and it just allows us to see something that was hidden, at the least (whereas the blessing is always present and helps us in our fight). So all that would be needed was to have the previously hidden shown. However, due to it being part of the storyline, and the ability to go to any explorable before that, and every mission is in a single point in time... it just becomes annoying to think of how to make it apparent it does something. Especially so in missions.

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I wouldn't doubt that the spirits in the Rift/realms of the gods would be hidden to normal people. If they wanted to be.

On this I'm a bit uncertain. Yes it does make sense, but it's also rather silly, and undermines the ability for anyone to determine the effects of Ascension. You could just as easily argue that the spirits that, if they were introduced in the future, only appear post-Ascension simply decided to reveal themselves. Meaning, really, Ascension did nothing other than make a few souls recognize you as worthy to reveal themselves to. Do you see the conundrum I've playing about in my head?

Really, Cantha is the best place for revealing what it does, but even with those few examples, it remains unclear.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Regarding the effects of True Sight, my money is on it not being put into consideration for mechanics - much like the blessing by the gods when we fight Abaddon - it's always present and it just allows us to see something that was hidden, at the least (whereas the blessing is always present and helps us in our fight). So all that would be needed was to have the previously hidden shown. However, due to it being part of the storyline, and the ability to go to any explorable before that, and every mission is in a single point in time... it just becomes annoying to think of how to make it apparent it does something. Especially so in missions.

To which I do not disagree. However, my main point still stands, we have no firm evidence that Ascension was needed to see the Mursaat (souls are a bit iffy, but there's more support for it than the Mursaat). As I recall, I've had the discussion previously where it was pointed out that the title, the Unseen Ones, was not a name the Mursaat or the White Mantle devised, but rather what the common Krytans created, as they never saw these so-called gods.

[Imrahil Greywood]

the Unseen Ones, was not a name the Mursaat or the White Mantle devised, but rather what the common Krytans created, as they never saw these so-called gods.

I seem to recall the litanies of the unseen which are said to be the white mantles most holy texts .

[Konig Des Todes]

The White Mantle do refer to the Mursaat as the Unseen Ones. I'm curious Leon, what says that the Krytan commoners were the ones who came up with that name, and not the White Mantle?

[Imrahil Greywood]

Optimus Caliph: "You have called us. We have come. Together, we will force these heathens from the kingdom of Kryta."
Optimus Caliph: "But know that our aid comes at a price. Only the truly worthy may see the Unseen and live to tell the tale. And Saul!"

[draxynnic]

After a discussion with Gmr Leon on the Mantle's lack of known leadership the other day and a realisation in the viral thread that there are named White Mantle that we haven't killed, I thought I'd put together a list of names and classes with the aid of the White Mantle category on the official wiki:

Ambassador Braun (Monk, outside Griffon's Mouth)
Ambassador Zain (Monk, outside Ascalon)
Dinas (Monk, probably. Spy for the Shining Blade.)
Envoy Ero (Elementalist, probably, in Druid's Overlook. Unwilling spy by blackmail for the Shining Blade - interestingly, Alari Doubleblade refers to Ero as male despite having a female model)
Gate Guard Makala (Warrior, Hakewood.)
House Rangers Amon, Lanalt, Marco, and Rional (Rangers, The Wilds mission and leadup.)
Inquisitor Gilead (Warrior, Nebo during Hot Springs Murders)
Justiciar Isaiah (Ranger, D'Alessio Seaboard)
Justiciar Lashona (Ranger, Divinity Coast)
Justiciar Torimo (Warrior, Gates of Kryta)
Mantle Knight Franklin (Warrior, Divinity Coast briefing)
Mantle Knight Karriya (Warrior, D'Alessio Seaboard briefing)
Master Seeker Nathaniel (Ranger, Griffon's Mouth. Has a wolf animal companion named Snow.)
Witness Casori (Elementalist, Gates of Kryta)
Witness Giselle(Elementalist, The Wilds)
Witness Rastin (Necromancer (author's speculation), outside Ascalon).

Having provided the list, here are some of my thoughts as to what may have happened to them afterwards:

The two ambassadors seem to want to bring peace between Ascalon and Kryta and give aid to the former, but it's unknown whether this is genuine or whether this was part of a plot. Witness Rastin also seems to be a decent sort (having arranged a ritual to calm the spirits of the deceased after the Searing - this being why I suspect him of being a Necromancer, likely having discarded the normal MantleRitualist uniform for something less intimidating) but, again, this could be part of a plot. Makala, on the other hand, seemed on the whole to be more loyal to Hakewood than the Mantle - once the Mursaat were revealed, I expect he did or will jump ship at the first opportunity. Master Seeker Nathaniel also seems a decent sort, of the kind that the Mantle may want to keep as part of their "public face" without being informed of the true nature of the Mantle's activities, so he may be another candidate for defection.

Given the betrayal of the Shining Blade by Markis, Dinas's prospects for having survived to the end of Prophecies are not good, even though Bartholos appears to have sources of information within the Mantle. Ero might be one of these sources, although information gained by blackmail may be tainted - Ero has had a long time to think about means of getting even, and passing on false information is one way of doing so.

With what we know of what happened to Justiciar Thommis, I suspect that his house troops ended up dying during or after his capture by Duncan the Black.

Of the other survivors, Inquisitor Gilead and the three Justiciars seem the best candidates for taking over (factions of) the White Mantle. Gilead seems, to me, to be an especially good candidate due to the foreboding nature of his takeover of the Hot Springs Murders investigation - this strikes me as making it likely that he's aware of the true nature of the Mantle. The three Justiciars also have the advantage of being established at important locations in Kryta - Torimo at Lion's Arch, Isaiah in the vicinity of the Temple of Tolerance, and Lashona at Loamhurst. This would, if ANet chooses, give them a string of identified White Mantle leaders in each of these locations, culminating in taking down Gilead at the Temple of the Unseen.

[Thalador Doomspeaker]

You did a great job there, Draxynnic. However, I think we should list the Grand Masters as possible leaders of the Mantle. We haven't seen them in the Temple of the Unseen, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I'd be thrilled to see these mysterious figures. Perhaps the current Confessor (if the guy on the Mantle flyer is indeed the Confessor) came from their ranks.

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The White Mantle do refer to the Mursaat as the Unseen Ones. I'm curious Leon, what says that the Krytan commoners were the ones who came up with that name, and not the White Mantle?

Now I'm wondering myself, but it does make sense, if you think about it. That the commoners would refer to them as the Unseen Ones, and the Mantle would have an entirely different name. It's also possible that seeing how common it became, the Mantle and the Mursaat played along with it. I don't think there is a source in any of the dialogue to back it though. (Probably remnant memories from years past and nothing more that I'm dredging this up from.)

[Konig Des Todes]

Leon, Imrahil pointed out that the Mursaat call themselves Unseen in Rise of the White Mantle. Can't get any older than that, so I think that they said to saul "call us the Unseen Ones, we don't want to make an appearance." or something of the sort.

Regarding the Grand Masters, I have a feeling that they are, more or less, the trainers/teachers of the White Mantle (thus, not at the top, but higher than the common White Mantle).

[draxynnic]

I didn't list the Grand Masters because none of them are individually named. I forgot to mention it in the post, but I also didn't include "Lionguard Minah" due to the confusion on what his loyalties actually are.

If the Grand Masters do exist (and aren't just another name for the Inner Council) then any appearance of them will be as new characters, not reappearance of old ones. Considering what the Mantle really intended for the Chosen, however, there is that question mark.

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Leon, Imrahil pointed out that the Mursaat call themselves Unseen in Rise of the White Mantle. Can't get any older than that, so I think that they said to saul "call us the Unseen Ones, we don't want to make an appearance." or something of the sort.

You..Eh..Appear to have misunderstood, what I said in parentheses was thinking aloud to discussions I've had over the past years on this very topic, where it's become distorted to the point that I've gotten it a bit tangled up with the real lore. I don't actually think the Mursaat would call themselves the "Unseen" or "Unseen Ones" personally, until a later point where they came to the decision that that was the best position to take (after reestablishing security in Kryta, for instance). Keep in mind that the mission the Rise of the White Mantle takes place after control of the Krytan border, as we are familiar with it, has been obtained and so relative safety has also been created.

That mission is more or less weeding out what's left of the Charr invasion force to prevent further attack. This being the case, the Mursaat would have had plenty of time to decide on their own course of action, such as revealing themselves or keeping themselves hidden, what to do with the organization Saul has founded, etc.

So as to not incite further confusion, I'm not disagreeing, merely saying that I don't believe it went in the way you describe Konig.

[draxynnic]

Interesting. It looks like the Temple of the Ages was maintained by an edict from Saul...

...at least, until now. Now it's being maintained by the White Mantle being too wimpy to take it over.

Although I do take some objection to the Blade referring to Saul as the Deceiver. "Deceived" would appear to be more accurate.

And the identity of the new White Mantle confessor has been revealed.

[Thalador Doomspeaker]

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

Interesting. It looks like the Temple of the Ages was maintained by an edict from Saul...

...at least, until now. Now it's being maintained by the White Mantle being too wimpy to take it over.

Protected, not maintained. The Temple is like an embassy in a foreign country. But at least we now know why the "Mantle" didn't destroy it in that 6-8 years after the end of Prophecies.

It also seems that Saul believed that both religions can live in peace at the same time and at the same place. His principles were true. I'd do everything to reform the Mantle and remove the corruption inside it.

Originally Posted by Draxynnic

And the identity of the new White Mantle confessor has been revealed.

It seems you were right. But are they the same?

[draxynnic]

Actually, "maintained" was the word I wanted. An expansion of what I was thinking would be "the sanctity of the ToA was maintained by..."

"Protected" does fit reasonably well, though.

Indeed, although given the dogma expressed by Hablion, it's surprising that it took this long for someone to try going against Saul's edict. I guess Dorian was a little more moderate in that respect.

Regarding Isaiah... Like I said in the viral thread, I guess we'll find out when we meet up with him. It does seem logical, though - if it is an entirely new character, they probably would have been better off giving him a new name.

[Whisper]

Really what makes me most confused about the white mantle, is how they can stay loyal to the mursaat even after 250 years? They have seen what they did to Saul and how they betrayed him (Oh well he was being abused from the start), and have been sacrificed to the sustainance of the Mursaat... ? How can they still follow them? Even while they are being abused?

Originally Posted by Thalador Doomspeaker

It seems you were right. But are they the same?

I think you hit the nail there ^^

(btw I love the big peacekeeper model :P)

[Thalador Doomspeaker]

It's not confirmed that Saul has been sacrificed. I still hope that he's still alive! I want to have my true shepherd back!

[Gmr Leon]

Your shepherd would no longer be the shepherd you desire, though.

Originally Posted by Whisper

Really what makes me most confused about the white mantle, is how they can stay loyal to the mursaat even after 250 years? They have seen what they did to Saul and how they betrayed him (Oh well he was being abused from the start), and have been sacrificed to the sustainance of the Mursaat... ? How can they still follow them? Even while they are being abused?

If you're faithful, and then you actually get evidence that your faith is in the right direction through seeing what you worship manifest itself before you, why wouldn't you remain loyal? Your gods actually exist, and if they feel it necessary, can kill you without a second thought. No one questions the gods they worship, they only question the gods of others and undermine them through logic that can equally apply to them. It's very similar to doublethink, if you've ever read 1984. You're capable of believing a lie is the truth despite knowing the truth of the matter. In other words:

Originally Posted by 1984

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary.

That being the case, it's very easy to see why the Mantle remain loyal to the Mursaat. It's there by design in their faith:
1. The Unseen Ones are, as the Mantle like to s, yet could be everywhere observing you, ready to kill you at the sign of a lack of faith.
2. Faith protects one from the wrath of the Unseen Ones, one must remain resolute in their faith.
3. You do not question the Unseen Ones, what they do, they do for a higher purpose. If they slaughter you without reason, there is a reason beyond your comprehension.

Edit: Does no one have the Peacekeeper dialogue from Watchtower Coast recorded anywhere?