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[Konig Des Todes]

Lazarus kills his own WM for no reason just to survive. If he wants revenge against humans, he'll destroy his followers as well.

That's the kind of person he seems to be to me.

[TedTheShred]

Originally Posted by draxynnic

--Snip--

We've discussed at length that the severity and number of sacrifices that the Mantle committed goes well beyond "low-level oppression" or a "handful" of killings.

I'm not under the impression that Lazarus isn't able or willing to plan ahead. The entire premise of the White Mantle was a slowly and meticulously crafted plan that took distant prophetic events into account. Lazarus even tore himself into aspects just in case their plan failed.

He sees the White Mantle as tools, yes, so why throw out your best hammer? He is, as far as we can tell, all alone aside from his devoted followers.

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Lazarus kills his own WM for no reason just to survive. If he wants revenge against humans, he'll destroy his followers as well.

That's the kind of person he seems to be to me.

I have no doubt that he's willing to sacrifice any and every member of the White Mantle for his own ends.

That said, he can do more damage to more Humans with followers than without them. It doesn't make sense for him to destroy an organization he can still use unless he isn't the one pulling the strings, or he has broader intents that involve the destruction of the White Mantle. It can't simply be "because he want's revenge."

[Konig Des Todes]

I think the issue is that you're assuming that Lazarus is the last Mursaat. If Lazarus was the last Mursaat, then there wouldn't be plans for the race in GW2. Along with that, if one Mursaat could of survived, couldn't others?

As for why he would kill the White Mantle, I think it is closer to the charr mentality than any others. When you're pissed off at someone, you don't stop and think about a logical plan, you just do what your gut tells you to do: Hit the person where it hurts.

A Golem assault on the three strongest human nations remaining (at least, of the known human nations), the strongest assault (i.e., the biggest) being on Kryta itself (and on the enemy of the White Mantle at that). Then set the White Mantle into a "do as much damage as you can" mode (this doesn't mean "go kill yourselves for me!"), as a second attempt to root out the enemy of the WM, while not caring if the WM survive. If they do, you maintain control over Kryta and can kill it off slowly - if they don't, then the place will be leaderless as long as they do their job, thus will be like headless chickens.

Its a win-win whether its with forethought or not.

And to go back to the charr mentality, what I mean is a "their defeat no matter the cost" - this would be most especially true if Lazarus is the last of his race. If he can't make more Mursaat, his race is doomed anyways, so might as well bring the most enemies (humans and asura) as one can - focusing on the humans it seems right now (and making the gap between the two races even larger).

And even then, if Lazarus is behind this, we may never see him. Once Isaiah seems to be loosing, he may back off and hide in the shadows to plot some more.

[Gmr Leon]

The issue with that is that the Mursaat have never been shown as an impulsive, emotionally driven race. Instead, we have seen them as rather cold, methodical, and generally detached from any other living beings. It's rather apparent the killing of humans didn't concern them in the least, nor Dwarves, for that matter. Besides, when you can read the very thoughts of others, you know what they think of you, what their intents are after seeing you, and so on and so forth, not to mention being aware of the current status of the race of the specimen you're extracting thoughts from. So it doesn't seem likely that a race like that would feel a drive to do anything immediately, especially if they can tell the intent of whomever spotted them isn't to hunt down and destroy them.

[draxynnic]

From memory, the debate on the number of Chosen sacrificed wa sinconclusive when it came to numbers. Still, "low-level" is relative - the rate was such that while there were some suspicions, it's not like they were taking the firstborn of each family. Maybe it would have changed once a reasonable training period ended and the Chosen still did not return, however it strikes me as logical that the sacrifices were at a reasonably sustainable rate compared to the size of the population - and sustainable, by definition, means that you're not going to destroy the country in bloody vengeance by continuing as you are.

On the slow and methodical thing - Keep in mind that Lazarus has been somehow...damaged...and we don't know exactly what form that corruption takes. We do, however, know that when the aspect was interfered with by Glayvin, it manifested in a state of rage - if that rage was absorbed with the damaged aspect, Lazarus may literally be in a state of insane rage, especially from the viewpoint of the normally methodical Mursaat.

[Gmr Leon]

We have confirmation that Zinn and Blimm have begun assisting the Shining Blade in Kryta.

http://www.guildwars.com/warinkryta/#news

Originally Posted by Genius Asura Duo Aid Shining Blade by Murro.

A reputable source within the rebel movement has confirmed that two renowned asura named Zinn and Blimm have allied themselves with the Shining Blade. For obvious reasons, the unnamed source could not offer specific information, but the asura have no doubt been tasked with creating some incredible invention beyond this humble scribe’s understanding to be used against the White Mantle and the Unseen Ones.

The source could not confirm or deny rumors that the Shining Blade agent Livia has been assigned to assist the asura in whatever research they may be conducting.

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Oh, another thing this (indirectly) confirms: Dwarves are indeed older than the gods (this was not confirmed before, but a rather logical outcome), and what's more interesting: The Great Dwarf is unrelated to the gods. So if a god is unrelated to the six gods, then how does this god tie in with everything? Assuming the great dwarf is, in fact, a god.

I'm not sure, but, was it I who posed the thought or another of the Great Dwarf being a sort of guardian deity of Tyria? I know it's floated about my thoughts, especially when devising the planetary formation hypothesis awhile back. I believe I thought of it as the Great Dwarf being the embodiment (or a sort of avatar) of the Mists contained within Tyria, although a new thought that comes to me is it arising as a counter agent to the Elder Dragons to prevent them from draining Tyria dry of the Mists within, should that be the essence of life's formation upon planets within the GW universe. That's irrelevant to this though, but it would be an interesting explanation for divine beginnings albeit suggestive of the specimens similar to the Elder Dragons existing on other worlds...

[Konig Des Todes]

I don't recall anyone bringing up the thought of the Great Dwarf being an embodiment of the Mists. The closest, that I recall, of that nature is the idea that either you or drax brought up in regards to how the Great Destroyer's power was what turned the dwarves into stone (that is, his power was stored in the hammer, then spread throughout the race, so that it would go and destroy anything or allow the creation of a seventh god).

The idea that planets which have life have a concentration of the Mists and that the dragons consume that is... very much like the various "planet eater" stories...

[draxynnic]

That doesn't ring as many bells as one of mine should, so it must have been on of Leon's.

According to dwarven legend, the Great Dwarf created Tyria, but this wouldn't be the first time such a legend proved not to be true. Considering that the Great Destroyer was the Great Dwarf's foe and not one of the dragons themselves, I'm starting to wonder if the Great Dwarf was the general of one of the rival dragons (possibly one that has yet to wake up, and possibly also a "good" dragon). If this is the case, this raises the possibility that it may be possible for the Great Dwarf to wake up during GW2's run.

...and while I'd considered before the possibility of a good elder dragon located in Cantha, it would explain certain artifacts found in the Jade Sea if the Great Dwarf turned out to be serving that dragon. Even if that wouldn't be a preplanned connection on ANet's part.

[Konig Des Todes]

The Great Dwarf was never credited with creating Tyria. Just creating the dwarven race.

If there's any good elder dragons, my money is on them being Glint and Kuunavang and having reduced their own power through that random thought I had before which I shall look into come GW2 (as I have as much as I could already, which does not provide much).

For those who do not know what I mean, the thought was that Glint, Rotscale, and Kuunavang are "shadows of their former selves" (an interpretation of Jeff stating that Glint and Rotscale are shadows of the dragons, not in the shadows of the dragons like the modern races are as per the official site - I add in Kuunavang due to the Movement grouping Glint and Kuunavang as, more or less, the same thing) and that while Rotscale is an undead (and not even his full body), Glint and Kuunavang have reduced their own power - Glint into six: the gods (thus explaining the gods' facets, that they reflect their power's origin, and is connected to the Forgotten, which I think is a race that Glint created); and Kuunavang into many more (at least 12, possibly 15): the Celestials (we have the 12 lunar celestials+the kirin, turtle, and phoenix celestials - we see from the inscriptions of the four in Nahpui that the celestials might not have died (see Hai Jii, Kaijun Don, Kuonghsang, and Tahmu). The reason why I connect the Celestials to Kuunavang is because Kuunavang gives the players celestial skills - all of which deal with spirits, and what do the celestials look like? Spirits!

I am connecting the dots, though I do not know if I am connecting dots of the same puzzle. And I probably won't know until GW2 is released.

[Joiry]

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Considering that the Great Destroyer was the Great Dwarf's foe and not one of the dragons themselves, I'm starting to wonder if the Great Dwarf was the general of one of the rival dragons (possibly one that has yet to wake up, and possibly also a "good" dragon). If this is the case, this raises the possibility that it may be possible for the Great Dwarf to wake up during GW2's run.

The Great Dwarf/Glint/Kuunavang could just be the remaining generals/powerful agents of whatever might have opposed the elder dragons in the past. Whatever that force/being/group was may have had to sacrifice itself to put the dragons to sleep. The plans of these three (possibly others) may have centered around keeping the dragons asleep, thinking there would be nothing powerful enough to oppose them should they wake. Thus gearing the whole dwarven race towards opposing the Great Destroyer, which presumably has some ability to awaken Primordus. The dwarves (and us) may have been too late, ie the process had started, but without the supervision of the Great Destroyer, its left on a slower track.

I still wonder if the Great Dwarf was a single entity. It could well be a culture/folk hero representation for the dwarves ability/directive to fight dragonic forces. "We are all the Great Dwarf now" - Jalis may mean this slightly metaphorically, but may not realize it has a even deeper meaning. In this sense, the hammer itself may just be a triggering mechanism, rather than containing the full power to transform the dwarves.

[Gmr Leon]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The idea that planets which have life have a concentration of the Mists and that the dragons consume that is... very much like the various "planet eater" stories...

The difference being that the worlds would simply become desolate, instead of being entirely destroyed. Although if the Mists are what hold planets and stars together, then it could function similarly. Assuming any area of the idea is even partially correct. Excluding the creation of a seventh god bit, that idea you mention is definitely amongst my array of ideas, not Draxynnic's, by the way.

[draxynnic]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

For those who do not know what I mean, the thought was that Glint, Rotscale, and Kuunavang are "shadows of their former selves" (an interpretation of Jeff stating that Glint and Rotscale are shadows of the dragons, not in the shadows of the dragons like the modern races are as per the official site - I add in Kuunavang due to the Movement grouping Glint and Kuunavang as, more or less, the same thing) and that while Rotscale is an undead (and not even his full body), Glint and Kuunavang have reduced their own power - Glint into six: the gods (thus explaining the gods' facets, that they reflect their power's origin, and is connected to the Forgotten, which I think is a race that Glint created); and Kuunavang into many more (at least 12, possibly 15): the Celestials (we have the 12 lunar celestials+the kirin, turtle, and phoenix celestials - we see from the inscriptions of the four in Nahpui that the celestials might not have died (see Hai Jii, Kaijun Don, Kuonghsang, and Tahmu). The reason why I connect the Celestials to Kuunavang is because Kuunavang gives the players celestial skills - all of which deal with spirits, and what do the celestials look like? Spirits!

That is an interesting point - the celestials do appear a lot like divine beings in how they are treated in Canthan power, albeit not as powerful (note that I refer to the actual celestials here - even the bosses in Nahpui are only reflections). If Kuunie and Glint started with roughly equal power, this might explain the difference between the gods and the celestials - Kuunavang's was split 12-15 ways while Glint's only six.

Another candidate here is Albax - we never see him fighting, so we don't know if he was anything special or just a Saltspray that comehow managed to avoid being corrupted. What he did to Infortunatos Maxeles certainly does seem well above the capabilities of the Saltsprays we fight, however.

[Imrahil Greywood]

It is also possible that Balthazar (also spelled Balthasar or Balthassar) was named after one of the magi recorded in the Bible, who was presumed to have the same name.

"Balthazar bless my strength, teach my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," is a reference to the 144th Psalm in the Christian Bible, which includes the phrase, "Blessed be the Lord, my strength, who teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight." Notably, the movie Saving Private Ryan includes a sniper who recites similar lines.

[Satrec Pylonag]

What is the lore community's stance on the recent Dhuum bot banning?

Does/did Dhuum ever just come to Tyria, activate Vengeance is ours, and kill some random heretic?

That might just be the cruelty that he was sentenced away for. He actually intervened and used his divine powers.

[draxynnic]

Mine? As much canon as the bots themselves are. It's just ANet coming up with a fancy way of showing off "you've just been kickbanned".

[Arghore]

Well, i have a slight angle on that one, Dhuum is still the lord of the Void, it sound like a place where there is perma death, account bans are basically a form of perma death and the characters indeed disappear in 'the void' ...

The active hunting of Dhuum however i cannot place, unless he has actually broke free from his prison and actively hunts for players that try and break the rules of magic on Tyria ... why Dhuum would take this active role i dont fully understand, but it makes for some nice visuals of the banning process

[Satrec Pylonag]

Originally Posted by Arghore

Well, i have a slight angle on that one, Dhuum is still the lord of the Void, it sound like a place where there is perma death, account bans are basically a form of perma death and the characters indeed disappear in 'the void' ...

The active hunting of Dhuum however i cannot place, unless he has actually broke free from his prison and actively hunts for players that try and break the rules of magic on Tyria ... why Dhuum would take this active role i dont fully understand, but it makes for some nice visuals of the banning process

Yea banned is getting killed without resurrection.
Indeed excellent visuals.

Perhaps Grenth gave Dhuum this job as punishment for looking cool and uprising against him.

[Konig Des Todes]

Arghore, "the Void" is not said to even be a literal place. As far as we know, and as far as Linsey will say, it's just part of a nickname and nothing more.

I would say Dhuum appearing everywhere is not cannon. Mainly for one simple reason: He does not tolerate undead - though seemingly undead that are not his. If he were to break free, I would assume one of the things he'd do is go after Joko.

[Arghore]

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Arghore, "the Void" is not said to even be a literal place. As far as we know, and as far as Linsey will say, it's just part of a nickname and nothing more..

As far as i understand the word 'Void' it would indeed NOT be a literal place, there would just be a portal leading there 'governed by Dhuum' and everything going through said portal would be disintegrated into nothingness ... kindoff like a blackhole ... as such it makes a very fitting place for banned accounts to go, since basically they stop excisting, data erased 'no such number, no such name' ... gone into the void