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For those of you that have worried about the balancing of skills between PvE and PvP, you'll be glad to hear that ArenaNet has plans to continue to split skills as necessary:

So you guys know, we already split some skills. And, what’s most pertinent to the current thread, we plan to do this even more.

When we first shipped, it was awesome to have a lot of the balance be the same between PvE/WvW/PvP. But, as you guys have really started to push the game types to their limits, classes and specs that work in one areas of the game are sometimes ineffectual in others.
Due to this, we’ll have to do more splitting of skills to better balance the various areas of the game.

TL:DR – We already do this, and we’ll be using it even more in order to balance the different areas of the game effectively.
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#1 Lordkrall

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:42 PM

Good to hear. It is after all impossible to balance a game around both PvP and PvE at the same time without screwing up one of the types.
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#2 El Duderino

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:12 PM

This is good news. I cannot imagine trying to balance a game for meaningful 5v5 PvP as well as single person play in the persistent world.
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#3 Al Shamari

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:15 PM

Thank you, thank you. It was about time, I knew they would come around eventually. I get what they wanted, I really do... but there was bound to be a time where things simply wouldn't add up and they would be forced to split the skills, there was no way around it. For awhile now, they've simply been pushing it to stroke their own egos I assume.
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#4 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

THIS IS GREAT NEWS!


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#5 davadude

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:46 PM

So far, so good. All I hope is that Arenanet can continue this stream of good updates throughout 2013.
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#6 Bloodtau

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

Nice to hear! it worked well in GW1 when they started eventually doing it =)
Means that pvp player cries won't get pve players nerfed for no reason
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#7 NibriCevon

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:00 PM

I'm game for that as long as they list what's split. If there's a split, I'd like it to have the (PvE) or (PvP) label on it. The same goes for traits if there's a difference as well.
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#8 Lordkrall

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:10 PM

I'm game for that as long as they list what's split. If there's a split, I'd like it to have the (PvE) or (PvP) label on it. The same goes for traits if there's a difference as well.


In GW1 there was a addition like that to the skill name when entering PvP. You also got a notice in chat which skills where changed when you entered a PvP area.
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#9 jonasklk

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:21 PM

Great news indeed :)
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#10 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

Going to post my editorial:

Don't be too happy. It's going to lead to a lot of bugs.

Case in point, when they did the Cloak and Dagger change to PvP vs PvE, you had to relearn C&D and your UI bugged to show both skills in your Weapon Skill pane.

Minor bugs, to be sure. However in the major patch where Engineers received a buff to turrets, when you use the trait Deployable Turrets the turrets revert to their pre-patch state. Not to be too sour about it, but the Thieves had a hot-fix made when Hidden Killer was bugged, but Scope on engineers has been bugged since launch and Deployable Turrets is still bugged.

It seems they have a condition tree to determine which spell you end up with based on your state (PvE vs PvP) and traits equipped, plus the other myriad of conditions where traits and stuff take effect.

Again, it's going to lead to a lot of bugs.
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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#11 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:09 PM

Personally, I still believe that a lot of skills are bad conceptually rather than simply numerically. So to fix PvP, you'd actually need to completely rework those.
But, I imagine, this will allow A.Net to easier please PvE players.
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#12 Lordkrall

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:13 PM

Personally, I still believe that a lot of skills are bad conceptually rather than simply numerically. So to fix PvP, you'd actually need to completely rework those.
But, I imagine, this will allow A.Net to easier please PvE players.


Well they did that in GW1.
There were several skills that had more or less completely different effects in PvP and PvE, so why couldn't they do the same here?
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#13 MisterB

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

I hope their intention to do AoE changes is part of the skill split. Unfortunately, PvE skills are used in WvW, so AoE presumably poses problems for that format.

For those of you who may not know or have forgotten, they spoke about AoE changes in January.
http://www.guildwars...ripts-by-dulfy/

Discussion thread: http://www.guildwars...stream-summary/
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#14 Khaal

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:53 PM

Well they did that in GW1.
There were several skills that had more or less completely different effects in PvP and PvE, so why couldn't they do the same here?


While I think a PvE/PvP split is probably a good idea, I don't want them to go the route they did in GW. If the difference between a PvE and PvP version of a skill is a matter of duration, recharge or damage, then I can deal with that pretty easily, but when the skill is completely different in the two modes of play then it can really be problematic for people like me who primarily play one type of game , but still like to hop over to the other every once in a while. The simple example is that I decide to hop into PvP and build my character based on an idea, then find that one of my skills doesn't operate anything like it should and now my bar has a useless skill on on it at best, or the whole concept fails at wost. I then feel like the twenty minutes I spent building my toon is wasted and so I head immediately back to PvE frustrated. It will be a longer time before I venture back into PvP, because the system is, in my opinion, designed poorly. I would much rather have skills that are not effective in one type of play or the other than a split that drastically changes the skill. If you use an ineffective skill on your bar then you should be able to identify that and not use it. If it can be remedied by tweaking the numbers slightly, then by all means split the skill ,but if the skill just simply does not work in one mode of the game then either players shouldn't use it, or it should be dropped from that mode of play.
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#15 El Duderino

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:04 PM

While I think a PvE/PvP split is probably a good idea, I don't want them to go the route they did in GW. If the difference between a PvE and PvP version of a skill is a matter of duration, recharge or damage, then I can deal with that pretty easily, but when the skill is completely different in the two modes of play then it can really be problematic for people like me who primarily play one type of game , but still like to hop over to the other every once in a while. The simple example is that I decide to hop into PvP and build my character based on an idea, then find that one of my skills doesn't operate anything like it should and now my bar has a useless skill on on it at best, or the whole concept fails at wost. I then feel like the twenty minutes I spent building my toon is wasted and so I head immediately back to PvE frustrated. It will be a longer time before I venture back into PvP, because the system is, in my opinion, designed poorly. I would much rather have skills that are not effective in one type of play or the other than a split that drastically changes the skill. If you use an ineffective skill on your bar then you should be able to identify that and not use it. If it can be remedied by tweaking the numbers slightly, then by all means split the skill ,but if the skill just simply does not work in one mode of the game then either players shouldn't use it, or it should be dropped from that mode of play.


Unfortunately, the downfall to this whole thing is that it does make it more complex to go from PvE to PvP. However, this game is clearly being supported by the PvE crowd at this point. So, the only thing this does is make sure that there is incentive to balance PvP without the PvE crowd threatening to kill developers.

If this game has any hopes of being eSport, or even having healthy and robust PvP, this is a huge step in the right direction, regardless of the added complexity of skills possibly doing different things.
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#16 Khaal

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

Unfortunately, the downfall to this whole thing is that it does make it more complex to go from PvE to PvP. However, this game is clearly being supported by the PvE crowd at this point. So, the only thing this does is make sure that there is incentive to balance PvP without the PvE crowd threatening to kill developers.

If this game has any hopes of being eSport, or even having healthy and robust PvP, this is a huge step in the right direction, regardless of the added complexity of skills possibly doing different things.


I agree that complexity is an aspect of this system, or any system for that matter. One thing we need to take note of though is that the game, not just in general but specifically to PvP as well, needs to be "easy to learn, difficult to master." If the learning curve is too steep, and I suggest that too dramatic of a PvP/PvE split will steepen the curve, then it will make the barrier to entry for PvP too high and in order to have a thriving PvP community, the rate of players entering PvP needs to be higher than or equal to the rate of players leaving. Otherwise the community dwindles to a small group of people.
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#17 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:24 PM

Unfortunately, the downfall to this whole thing is that it does make it more complex to go from PvE to PvP. However, this game is clearly being supported by the PvE crowd at this point. So, the only thing this does is make sure that there is incentive to balance PvP without the PvE crowd threatening to kill developers.

If this game has any hopes of being eSport, or even having healthy and robust PvP, this is a huge step in the right direction, regardless of the added complexity of skills possibly doing different things.


Not sure about that, WvWvW is currently healthy, but stagnating. And anyone who's playing WvWvW 'seriously' is running Boosters you can only get from the store. It really needs to restructure the reward system to support actual attacks and defense rather than two zergs meeting head on with blue tacos on either side leading the charge.

It's the competitive PvP scene that's the issue and that's not balance so much as shitty support all around, from grouping with friends to ranked team play. It's amazing the game shipped without it.
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#18 Fasarina

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:50 PM

This is what they should have done from the start.

And I hope that at this point, they'll rollback some stupid changes done in PvE because of PvP
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#19 El Duderino

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:53 PM

I agree that complexity is an aspect of this system, or any system for that matter. One thing we need to take note of though is that the game, not just in general but specifically to PvP as well, needs to be "easy to learn, difficult to master." If the learning curve is too steep, and I suggest that too dramatic of a PvP/PvE split will steepen the curve, then it will make the barrier to entry for PvP too high and in order to have a thriving PvP community, the rate of players entering PvP needs to be higher than or equal to the rate of players leaving. Otherwise the community dwindles to a small group of people.


100% agree. It is tricky, but it won't ever get off the ground if it isn't balanced well.

It's the competitive PvP scene that's the issue and that's not balance so much as shitty support all around, from grouping with friends to ranked team play. It's amazing the game shipped without it.


I agree that there is a lot more to be done, but this is one huge important step in the right direction.
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#20 Jetjordan

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

I say put quickness back to 100% in PVE, 50% in PVE. I realize that my ranger was crazy OP with it in PVP but we could use it back in PVE for sure.
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