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Salutations

I feel like this is the sort of thing that I've been doing far too often for my own sanity over the past few months. Introductions. Can I just skip this and start meandering inconsequentially about how aesthetically pleasing it is to watch a warrior being eaten by a shark in sPvP?

(I'll hold that for the conclusion. Best for last and whatnot.)

Greetings, my name is Kaenes and I'll be chiming in here on Guru to keep everyone up to date on the times and fortunes of necromancy in Guild Wars 2.  Other than my work here on Guru, I'm also the project lead of Foundation, a collaborative writing/art/music project. It's rather neat, you should check it out.


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On the other side of the veil, I spend my time writing things, applying economics to places where economics should never tread (when I go grocery shopping, I actually calculate utility curves for each good I purchase to make sure that my overall utility is maximized), and realizing gradually that the American south-west is, functionally, a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

Keeping with the general theme of hating introductions, let's get down the science at hand.

A Big Ball of Magic-y, Doom-y Stuff


"So, Kaenes, how did you come to play a necromancer, which is obviously the most wonderful profession?"

Thanks for the question, anonymous cough-syrup hallucination!

When Guild Wars 2 went up for pre-order, I stopped what I was doing immediately and bought my copy. After 4-ish years of drooling over the potential of Guild Wars 2, I was ready to actually see what the fuss was about. The-dreaded-game-that-must-not-be-named had long lost its shine in my eyes and all of its assumed successors had proved equally uninspiring. That exasperation is, what I imagine to be, a widely shared emotion, and Guild Wars 2 promised to provide the first honest rethinking of the genre in nearly a decade. Needless to say, I was excited.

When the next BWE rolled around, I logged in; my young and impressionable heart set on rocking PvP with my much-anticipated mesmer. What followed was less than inspiring.

I shuffled through professions for the rest of the night, trying to find something that felt "right." After exhausting the engineer, the elementalist, and the other myriad of professions that weren't the necromancer, I eventually rolled a charr necromancer out of a potent mixture of boredom and desperation; it was love at first soul-reaping. (I was actually so shocked of the score at the end of the round that I immediately screenshotted the occurrence.)


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The reply then to this is, "Substantiate yourself! Why are necromancers so great?" Patience, for the substantiation follows.


10 Reasons Why Necromancers Are the Best Profession or My Apologies to David Letterman

  • Death Shroud. Oh, I'm sorry random elementalist. I wasn't aware that you lack a continually regenerating second health bar that you could activate at any time. That troll club the size of a sedan must've really hurt. Once I finish sucking our troll-friend's life out, I'll meander my glorious self over there and resurrect your corpse. (Don't forget AoE debuffing, fear, cc-immunity, and stacking self-buffs. The fun just continues on.)
  • Vampirism. Your health bar is my health bar. Basically, I'm a health socialist. From you according to your vitality, to me according to my dagger.
  • Conditions. Every time I see conditions, anywhere, I get giddy. Conditions on you, I'll spread to all of your teammates. Conditions on my team, I'll turn into boons. Conditions on me, I'll use as fuel to power the best heal in the game or to reflect back onto you. It doesn't end there; see those precious boons right above your health bar? Surprise! Those are now conditions eating away at said health bar.
  • Spectral Walk. This skill deserves a spot of its own. Massive duration of swiftness, coupled with one of the most useful secondary effects in the game. Don't believe me? Here's a completely hypothetical situation that may or may not have actually happened. I was defending the clock tower in a certain sPvP map. Lo and behold, a warrior and a guardian, both with shiny great-swords flailing erratically, come charging up the stairs.

    I could have stayed to fight (and then promptly died) or I could have done what I, theoretically, did. I activated spectral walk, and jumped out the window. The duo, power-stacking bloodlust in their eyes, jumped out after me with the expectation of an easy kill on wide open ground. I wish I could have seen the theoretical shock on their faces when I vanished, but I was back inside the theoretical clock tower again, so I couldn't.
  • Elite Skills. Unlike engineers (who definitely got the short end of the stick), necromancers have three immensely useful elite skills. The Flesh Golem is a minion without par, despite his occasional indecision on whether that centaur hitting him with a club is a threat or not. Plague is a fight changing support skill; 20-seconds of permanent AoE blinding and poison on your enemies is nothing to laugh at. This skill can single-handedly change the outcome of a losing battle - I couldn't count the times that I've saved a group from wiping on the Magg event in CoF by activating plague form and tanking the entire enemy team. Lich Form turns the necromancer into a one-man army capable of feats that defy common sense. Solo a group event, and you'll see what I mean.
  • Minions. Why do all the work yourself when you have disposable flesh slaves that you can exploit for your benefit? Capitalism at its best, folks. (Alternatively : DO YOU LIKE FREEDOM? PLAY A NECROMANCER! *queue rock music solo*)
  • Wells. Sorry Lassie, but if Jimmy fell into one of these, he's not making it back. At least, not in the same condition he was before. For more on this, see #6.
  • Vitality. Necromancers are part of the highest vitality tier, shared with those abominable warriors. Consider that an elementalist, stacking vitality, will almost equal our standard health pool, uninvested. That, my friends, is a beautiful thing.
  • Flexibility. A lot of derision has been heaped upon the "unfocused" structure of our trait trees; these people have been missing the forest for the trees (it's funny because it's a pun). Because of the diversity of traits within each of our lines, it's possible to run multiple builds without having to re-spend your points. For example, I'm currently running 30 Spite, 20 Death, and 20 Blood. This combination gives me access to, but is not limited to: Staff AoE, daggers and vampirism, debuff/power axe builds, minion mastery, and well specialization. Simply put, I can quickly and effectively adapt my tactics to any possible situation.
  • Group Support. The necromancer is possibly one of the most viscerally effective professions for group play. Wells are some of the most powerful AoE support skills in the game, our signets allow us to cleanse our allies of conditions and revive fallen comrades at distance, and our weapon skills are remarkably effective at debuffing and crippling an enemy. (Consider that the presence of a necromancer can trivialize the Legendary Flame Effigy in Citadel of Flame - otherwise, the boss was [pre-nerf] mathematically impossible.) Necromancers might not be churning out immense bursts of damage, but the sheer presence that they create on a battlefield makes them an invaluable member of any group.


Thanks for All the Fish


And there you have it; Necromancers are superior. In the unlikely case that there are remaining questions about our viability and lethality, I would be happy to answer those concerns in the nearest dark alleyway. And no, of course not! My minions are definitely not laying in wait for you. That would be silly.

Tune in later this week; we'll be taking a look at necromancers in structured and unstructured content (read as "PvP" and "dynamic events"). There have been a lot of misconceptions and concerns about the necromancer's role in these scenarios and I'll be tackling those things head on.

"Necromancers don't really do meaningful damage."
"Their support is weak."
"I don't know why anyone would play a necromancer, compared to the other professions."
"They're only good for conditions, and nothing else."


To which I say, underestimate us at your own peril - because it will be perilous.

How perilous?

I suppose you'll have to wait, and see.


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Posted in: News Necromancer

Comments

#1 cthulhuazathoth

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:18 PM

First our Foundation  web site looks cool.... :-)

Although i enjoy my necro a lot.  IMHO your  post is a bit way too one sided. Most of my comments below are either PvP and WvW centric. Honestly I don't think any class in this game have issue in PvE,


Death Shroud is a nice skill but with the recent change in "Blood is Power" you may have a hard time to generate enough life force depended on your build.

Vampirism IMHO only useful in open world PvE, The damage rate of burst class/mobs can out damagethe skill "input".


Elite Skills.  FG is nice but the AI is VERY bad. It is very ez to avoid in PvP  - a simple jump on and off a rock will make it to run around the map like crazy. In open world PvE, half the time it attack mobs out of random and aggro everything.

Minions. Sorry are we playing the same game. Any AOE attack (PvP, WvW, PvE) will whip them off. Have completely broken AI (lost track of how many time my minor just sit there and watch me die).

Wells. Once again nice in PvE but player is smart enough to walk away from it.

Necro in its current form is a specialist in PvP and WvW - Great wall (defense/offense) and group support. But iMHO lacks serious raw damage compare to other class.

#2 MKugenics

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

Is this thread a joke?

Stay off the cough-syrup.

#3 Kaenes

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:22 PM

I'll drop in with a few thoughts. Particularly because the position of the necromancer in the overall scheme of things is subject to such debate right now, I understand that almost anything that is said concerning them will be met with a high degree of controversy :

First, attempting to take something and utilize it for your design is often a sub-optimal strategy; instead, I'd recommend that players look at the mechanics first and then establish utility as a derivative of that.

Moving from the philosophical, the necromancer has been, in my experience, far less about raw power and rather about steady control. Take, for example, vampirism. After the bug fixes in this last patch, I respec'd to test it first-hand. Despite what people might say about it, vampire traits are phenominal at ensuring that you win the long game, which is where necromancers are dominant. A scepter/dagger condition damage/toughness/precision build, with a full suite of vampire traits, is phenominally hard to put down - which plays to the strengths of the build. I spent this morning wandering around WvW, and I could definitively tell the difference that vampirism made in my survivability.

Consider another example, wells. They have (traited) 30-40 seconds of cooldown between uses and do a non-trival amount of damage. People like to decry the usefulness of wells because, as you said, players can "just run out of it." However, if you are up against a melee combatant or defending a CP, that is exactly what you want them to do. You can force an entire team out of a CP or punish a warrior for attempting to engage you in close-quarters combat. The combination of death shroud + well of suffering is more than enough to bait and kill a heartseeker-spamming thief.

Instead of looking at things and finding excuses to write them off because of perceived weaknesses, I would encourage you to look at them for their strengths. You'll likely be surprised.

Project Lead - Foundation
Necromancer Columnist - GW2Guru


#4 calankh

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:57 PM

++ would read again.

My alt is a necromancer.  Currently level 28, but after a couple hours of getting pummeled to death in Brisbane Wildlands last night, I am about ready to start leveling someone else. I've tried scepter, staff, dagger, axe, minions, wells, no change seems to matter, I don't get drops and it takes forever to kills things. It's very frustrating; my main the ranger was much less stressful to level up (I realize this could in part be due to my playing partner having an engineer this time around vs the warrior he played with my ranger, but it doesn't seem like that should matter that much). I spent some time today looking over builds and reading various posts about builds and which skills and weapons are best, but with the list of necro bugs so long I don't even know which skills work correctly let alone what combination of them kills most effectively.

Anyway, my complaints aside, you've convinced me to at least give her another go. Maybe I can adapt one of these builds to my non-80th level self and make leveling less painful. A lot of the condition/boon skills don't seem to be useful in low level areas, as I rarely see enemies with boons on them, though.

#5 cthulhuazathoth

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:58 PM

First, don't get me wrong I play a Necro and I like it a lot,

1on1 close combat situation. Yes we are very hard to kill but at the same time we can't really kill anything. May be is me, but we lacks any reasonable gap closing ability, escape ability or range attack ability, Yes we are great punching bag and smart target dummy, that's  about it. Vampire skill is not bad but require you to spec on it plus is almost always a negative situation specially against burst build. If the other player is dumb enough to rush you, s/he must be new in PvP.

As you point out well is also nice in playing defense and offense. Player is smarter than mobs. If you  drop a well they will escape, cure the cures and attack u from different side.

There are different between efficiency and effectiveness. IMHO, Nicro in its current form is efficient in  group support and defense but not effective in anything else. On the other hands other professional have more flexibility and can be effective is multiple situations. Just my 0.02

#6 Bloggi

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:50 PM

As a big fan of the necro profession, having used it as a main since headstart, it's great to see an article like this that fleshes things out eloquently.

Group support. This is precisely why I play and like the necro. The consistent and varied debuffs they can put out is just sick. The rewards for this are less tangible of course and more appealing to altruistic individuals.

I wouldn't be so bold as to claim it is the 'best' profession and the playstyle (amongst even the varied builds) is not going to be appealing to everyone. But they have superb utility and staying power, and should be a well-respected individual in a paired or small group setting.

#7 Helliion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:18 AM

off topic but what dye are you using?

#8 Sovereign

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:29 AM

View Postcthulhuazathoth, on 05 October 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

1on1 close combat situation. Yes we are very hard to kill but at the same time we can't really kill anything. May be is me, but we lacks any reasonable gap closing ability, escape ability or range attack ability, Yes we are great punching bag and smart target dummy, that's  about it. Vampire skill is not bad but require you to spec on it plus is almost always a negative situation specially against burst build. If the other player is dumb enough to rush you, s/he must be new in PvP.
It probably is just you, or your build. Necro can kill every class in a 1on1 situation. We don't need a gap closing ability (unless you want to play main hand dagger, in this case: read below). With the amount of chill and cripple we can put out it's rather easy to close gaps just by running at normal speed. But as I said, you don't really want to go in close combat anyway.

Dagger in main hand definitely is inferior in a lot of ways to the other weapon combinations in PvP.
It's horrible for bombing engineers, it's horrible for warriors and thieves, it's horrible for dodging because every great dodge still means you have to run back to where you were and it makes you more vulnerable to zergs. It also means you can't obstruct one ranged class while hitting the other one, because you have to stand whereever the target is standing. Immoblizes hit you much harder, it's not hard to remove them/send them to your enemy, but every second you are not on the enemy with your MH dagger means you are losing dmg AND healing. If there is a MH dagger necro, I giggle a bit, then destroy him while brain afking.
No matter how you look at it, using the MH dagger makes you an alternative-build-person but it also cripples your class in most circumstances. Why would you want to make the game so much harder for you and your class.

And while we are at it: Minions are crappy as well. Don't pretend like they are not. :P
There is no way in hell you should waste a utility slot for something that 1.) is unreliable and 2.) can be easily denied by AoE'ing.

As of now it is true that there is no huge variety of very usable necromancer builds - but the builds that work work extremely well - and this is the most important part. Necro is awesome and great fun. =)

edit: When it comes to leveling from 1 to 80 I seriously have no idea why someone would find that hard with a Necromancer. In that case you CAN use all the utility slots and the elite slot for minions, go 30 death magic and spam a bit with your staff. You can easily kill mutliple enemies at the same time by kiting them around and it doesn't take very long.  You're problably just used to playing a class with a burst specc/skill where you run in range -> press 2 -> repeat for every mob out there. Now that is really boring. :P

#9 Aodan

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM

This is one of the many things I really dislike about GW2GURU.

Yet another content writer boasting about Spvp/Tpvp with no real background or real experience to gauge or have say on how well a profession does in high level play.

Your picture for Tpvp is against a team that is not even close to meta. Your comp also being a fair balance although I have no idea what roles/builds you were using, I can assume one thing quickly though; You aren't facing any mention-able team of any sorts.

This post is nothing but misinformation for Necro's stance in tpvp/meta atm.

The Necro lacks major things with the current meta which makes it simply a decent team fight profession but brings nothing major to the table.

1. Boon Removal Vs. Boon Application
Even if a Necro runs Well Corrupt + Corrupt Boon there is not enough boon removal to deal with the application of the current bunker meta.

TLDR - Necro's can't combat the amount of Boon Application and Condi Removal of current Bunker meta

2. Lich Form & Power Necro
You run Lich Form while using Scepter, that is quite the contradiction as you should be running Plague.(I shouldn't have to really explain this)
Also the current power necro isn't viable in most comps because it's either not bunker enough or provide any/enough burst to be considered worth it due to their huge lack of mobility.

3. Lack of moibility
Necro's Lack mobility. Having 1 swiftness that takes a long time to cast and has a fairly short duration with a high CD makes it a huge issue. They have the worst mobility in the game next to mesmers.

4. Lack of Control
You have your Staff 5 and 1 Fear on DS. Maybe a Daze if you off Warhorn on a regular basis. All of these have fairly long CD's and apart from staff are single target.


5. Only Viable in condition/control comps
They need 1-3-1 roams, and these are usually SLOW roams too, making the comp as a whole have to focus on holding mid.


I would really appreciate it if content writers would actually either evaluate real teams and their necro play or play ACTUAL tournament games against real teams before making a biased article which only further creates misinformed players.

All your article accomplishes is by giving a very unaccredited bias opinion on your take of your minimal experiences of low end tournament play as a necro.

#10 Zasian

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:04 AM

This thread on the main page is a joke!

It emulates that the class is superb, while there are great ideas with the class it lacks balance.

- 3 second stability? a joke
- vampirism?  leeching 33 hp per strike? even regeneration does 4x times more.
- minions? the AI is pretty buggy? in that state they are nearly useless. Did you ever use them in spvp?
- plague signet is bugged. it doesnt remove condis from allies, it just copies them.

I agree the poster below.

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

This is one of the many things I really dislike about GW2GURU.

Yet another content writer boasting about Spvp/Tpvp with no real background or real experience to gauge or have say on how well a profession does in high level play.

Your picture for Tpvp is against a team that is not even close to meta. Your comp also being a fair balance although I have no idea what roles/builds you were using, I can assume one thing quickly though; You aren't facing any mention-able team of any sorts.

This post is nothing but misinformation for Necro's stance in tpvp/meta atm.

The Necro lacks major things with the current meta which makes it simply a decent team fight profession but brings nothing major to the table.

1. Boon Removal Vs. Boon Application
Even if a Necro runs Well Corrupt + Corrupt Boon there is not enough boon removal to deal with the application of the current bunker meta.

TLDR - Necro's can't combat the amount of Boon Application and Condi Removal of current Bunker meta

2. Lich Form & Power Necro
You run Lich Form while using Scepter, that is quite the contradiction as you should be running Plague.(I shouldn't have to really explain this)
Also the current power necro isn't viable in most comps because it's either not bunker enough or provide any/enough burst to be considered worth it due to their huge lack of mobility.

3. Lack of moibility
Necro's Lack mobility. Having 1 swiftness that takes a long time to cast and has a fairly short duration with a high CD makes it a huge issue. They have the worst mobility in the game next to mesmers.

4. Lack of Control
You have your Staff 5 and 1 Fear on DS. Maybe a Daze if you off Warhorn on a regular basis. All of these have fairly long CD's and apart from staff are single target.


5. Only Viable in condition/control comps
They need 1-3-1 roams, and these are usually SLOW roams too, making the comp as a whole have to focus on holding mid.


I would really appreciate it if content writers would actually either evaluate real teams and their necro play or play ACTUAL tournament games against real teams before making a biased article which only further creates misinformed players.

All your article accomplishes is by giving a very unaccredited bias opinion on your take of your minimal experiences of low end tournament play as a necro.

I have to add: Daze can be traited to 3seconds (rune of mesmer and talent) and its a cone effect. So can hit the entire enemy team.

#11 ahamling27

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:27 AM

There might be a lot of stuff that people don't like about your post Kaenes, but I found it freaking hilarious. I have no idea if your take on Necromancers is the gospel or utter nonsense, but I don't care. It was a fun read and as a necromancer myself, it was helpful for me. Brush off the hate, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that your post was far from a joke, even though it was funny as hell!

#12 Sovereign

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

3. Lack of moibility
Necro's Lack mobility. Having 1 swiftness that takes a long time to cast and has a fairly short duration with a high CD makes it a huge issue. They have the worst mobility in the game next to mesmers.
You are talking about warhorn, out of combat you can also use the 30s Spectral Walk instantly and change back to the other utility.
I agree with most of your post btw.

When it comes to bunker Guardians, I think they are the problem, not the Necro class. However with Corrupt Boon used at the right time and focus in the off hand for this particular task, you should be able to give your burst mate the time to down the Guardian. I know it's not the very hard counter of Guardian, but killing a bunker Guardian 1on1 takes a while for every class right now.

The amount of conditions we can send back on the enemy is great though. Putrid Mark, Deathly Swarm, Plague Signet and Consume Conditions if we used all of them. And with Plague we can prevent a good amount of enemies from capping our point. I still don't think Necro is useless.
And meta game is a subject to change. (but as I already said, I agree with your post :P)

#13 Kaenes

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

I would really appreciate it if content writers would actually either evaluate real teams and their necro play or play ACTUAL tournament games against real teams before making a biased article which only further creates misinformed players.

All your article accomplishes is by giving a very unaccredited bias opinion on your take of your minimal experiences of low end tournament play as a necro.

Because this totally was an article written entirely about tournaments, from the perspective of someone who does nothing but tournaments, all of the time. How silly of me to think that I might have been talking about entirely different aspects of the game, like WvW or PvE! Obviously, it would be ridiculous of me to think that people would have the nerve to even play entirely different sections of the game than tournaments, and then to further heap insult to injury by talking about those things!

I mean, it's not like I spent the entire first half of the article discussing entirely non-substantive things, indicating that my focus in this first article was largely light-hearted and informal, right? Right? Right?

Oh.... Wait....

In all seriousness, you're looking at a metagame that's still in its infancy - combined with a rather widespread lack of balance among professions (take a look at Jon Peters' thoughts on this, if you're curious).

Purely as an intellectual endeavor, I'll tackle a few of your points.

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

1. Boon Removal Vs. Boon Application
TLDR - Necro's can't combat the amount of Boon Application and Condi Removal of current Bunker meta

That's because, per the post above, the current bunker meta (driven by guardians, mind you) has been admitted to be broken by the devs, meaning that it will be fixed. I'll quote Jon, in entirety, because of how revealing the quote is (take note that this was recorded in game, so cut him some slack on his punctuation and grammar),

"bunker guardian has to much retal period. obviously. frankly to much prot also. but that is not the heart of the matter. the core problem is real. because with it, bunker builds eliminate spike builds from the meta game. which in turn makes bunker builds OP. so the counter to them is beeing countered by them. aka balance problem. defensive builds are important, they help establish strategies. but they are als determining the entire meta right know."

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

2. Lich Form & Power Necro
You run Lich Form while using Scepter, that is quite the contradiction as you should be running Plague.(I shouldn't have to really explain this)
Also the current power necro isn't viable in most comps because it's either not bunker enough or provide any/enough burst to be considered worth it due to their huge lack of mobility.

Saying that you should always run a certain elite with a certain build as a necromancer is remarkably inflexible. Depending on the situation, I'll switch my elite multiple times per match. If I'm alone, I'll often carry Lich because plague simply doesn't have the damage to make it worthwhile in a 1 on 1 context. In a group battle, I'll typically carry Plague for the AoE blinding, which is remarkably useful when trying to control a small, crowded space.

Here's the important detail, which rather damages your attempt at critique. You haven't actually read the article. If you had read it, you would know that the screenshot in question is from day 1 of BWE1. (Hint, look at the location of the dodge bar and the lack of range indicators on the skill bar). So, you're accusing me of running a sub-optimal build on the first day of BWE1?

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

3. Lack of moibility
Necro's Lack mobility. Having 1 swiftness that takes a long time to cast and has a fairly short duration with a high CD makes it a huge issue. They have the worst mobility in the game next to mesmers.

Here's a bit of theory - 30 points in death magic yields an increase in boon duration by 30%. Necromancers have two main skills that grant swiftness, spectral walk and locust swarm. If you pick up the trait in Soul Reaping that reduces spectral cooldowns, spectral walk will have a 48 second cooldown and yield 39 seconds of swiftness. In turn, locust swarm will yield 13 seconds of swiftness on a standard cooldown of 30 seconds.

By combining these two skills and trait lines, you will have a permament swiftness buff. Obviously, there's more to it than that, but the point remains that if mobility is a problem for you, it is well within the reach of possibility to rectify that.

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

4. Lack of Control
You have your Staff 5 and 1 Fear on DS. Maybe a Daze if you off Warhorn on a regular basis. All of these have fairly long CD's and apart from staff are single target.

Your definition of control is woefully inadequate. According to dictionary.com, control can be defined as "to exercise restraint or direction over; to hold in check." Ultimately, control is the ability to excercise pre-emption in the development of events.

For the sake of argument, I'll recycle another thought I've used previously. If you use a well on a CP, and your opponent rolls out of the well to avoid taking damage, that counts as control. There was a previous chain of events that were happening, then you interjected an action into the events to change their direction. Functionally, what is the difference between using a skill that deprives your opponent of the ability to respond and using a skill that forces them to respond in the way that you desire? Not much.

Saying that the only way a necromancer has control is via our access to our two fears is entirely inaccurate.

Just a few forms of control that I have used in the past, off the top of my head:
  • Use of wells as area-denial / AoE blindness
  • Use of minion skills to knockdown/stun/blind/root
  • Scepter Cripple
  • AoE Blind on Plague form
  • Lich form knockback
  • Warhorn Daze
----

Essentially, the design of this first post is primarily light-hearted and unserious. If you're interested in serious analysis, don't fret, because you'll see that starting next week.

However, if you're looking for someone to ramble about how weak necromancers are, how broken our mechanics are, how buggy our skills are, and how useless death shroud is, this is not the place. First and foremost, I am a practical thinker. Moaning about what works and what doesn't accomplishes nothing; instead, I survey the system rationally and adapt to the situation as best as I can.

Do necromancers have issues at present? Definitely.

Will discussing how broken we are be the focus of this column? Definitely not.

Instead, expect me to focus on what we can do to be successful, what builds do work, and how to best leverage your strengths to your advantage across all three primary areas of the game. I intend, fully, to properly discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the profession, but I will do it in context of helping to design strategies that allow us to succeed and providing awareness for strategies and perspectives that have yielded dividends already.

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#14 Kaenes

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:47 PM

View Postahamling27, on 06 October 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

There might be a lot of stuff that people don't like about your post Kaenes, but I found it freaking hilarious. I have no idea if your take on Necromancers is the gospel or utter nonsense, but I don't care. It was a fun read and as a necromancer myself, it was helpful for me. Brush off the hate, I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that your post was far from a joke, even though it was funny as hell!

Thanks, I'm glad you got a laugh. People are obviously going to overanalyze it, because this is the internet and that's what people do here; but this post was intended to be lighthearted and I'm glad you got the joke.

View PostHelliion, on 06 October 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

off topic but what dye are you using?

Midnight fire with cobalt as the highlights. Midnight fire yields this lovely burned-rust color on the Citadel of Flame set, which is downright lovely.

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#15 Aodan

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:37 PM

View PostSovereign, on 06 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

You are talking about warhorn, out of combat you can also use the 30s Spectral Walk instantly and change back to the other utility.
I agree with most of your post btw.

When it comes to bunker Guardians, I think they are the problem, not the Necro class. However with Corrupt Boon used at the right time and focus in the off hand for this particular task, you should be able to give your burst mate the time to down the Guardian. I know it's not the very hard counter of Guardian, but killing a bunker Guardian 1on1 takes a while for every class right now.

The amount of conditions we can send back on the enemy is great though. Putrid Mark, Deathly Swarm, Plague Signet and Consume Conditions if we used all of them. And with Plague we can prevent a good amount of enemies from capping our point. I still don't think Necro is useless.
And meta game is a subject to change. (but as I already said, I agree with your post :P)

Spectral walk is at best good for CT defense/treb if Necro's were used for CT defense/treb. I haven't seen any top Necro players/subs use spectral walk.

The problem is Necro in general are not good 1v1 professions. Jon Peters and other players (I play necro too) agree that Power builds need reworks and that the condition necro is only promising in a condition/control focused comp.

#16 Aodan

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

View PostKaenes, on 06 October 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Because this totally was an article written entirely about tournaments, from the perspective of someone who does nothing but tournaments, all of the time. How silly of me to think that I might have been talking about entirely different aspects of the game, like WvW or PvE! Obviously, it would be ridiculous of me to think that people would have the nerve to even play entirely different sections of the game than tournaments, and then to further heap insult to injury by talking about those things!

I mean, it's not like I spent the entire first half of the article discussing entirely non-substantive things, indicating that my focus in this first article was largely light-hearted and informal, right? Right? Right?

Oh.... Wait....

I'm attacking and disproving of the content and sway of this article in what it presents about necro's in Spvp/Tpvp.


In all seriousness, you're looking at a metagame that's still in its infancy - combined with a rather widespread lack of balance among professions (take a look at Jon Peters' thoughts on this, if you're curious).

Purely as an intellectual endeavor, I'll tackle a few of your points.



That's because, per the post above, the current bunker meta (driven by guardians, mind you) has been admitted to be broken by the devs, meaning that it will be fixed. I'll quote Jon, in entirety, because of how revealing the quote is (take note that this was recorded in game, so cut him some slack on his punctuation and grammar),

"bunker guardian has to much retal period. obviously. frankly to much prot also. but that is not the heart of the matter. the core problem is real. because with it, bunker builds eliminate spike builds from the meta game. which in turn makes bunker builds OP. so the counter to them is beeing countered by them. aka balance problem. defensive builds are important, they help establish strategies. but they are als determining the entire meta right know."



Saying that you should always run a certain elite with a certain build as a necromancer is remarkably inflexible. Depending on the situation, I'll switch my elite multiple times per match. If I'm alone, I'll often carry Lich because plague simply doesn't have the damage to make it worthwhile in a 1 on 1 context. In a group battle, I'll typically carry Plague for the AoE blinding, which is remarkably useful when trying to control a small, crowded space.

If your not a power build Lich is fairly useless. Chain Blinds from Plague and the HP gained from being in Plague form is a better "bunker" than Lich.

Here's the important detail, which rather damages your attempt at critique. You haven't actually read the article. If you had read it, you would know that the screenshot in question is from day 1 of BWE1. (Hint, look at the location of the dodge bar and the lack of range indicators on the skill bar). So, you're accusing me of running a sub-optimal build on the first day of BWE1?

If anything it damages your critique and article for using outdated content in your reviews further showing lack of credibility


Here's a bit of theory - 30 points in death magic yields an increase in boon duration by 30%. Necromancers have two main skills that grant swiftness, spectral walk and locust swarm. If you pick up the trait in Soul Reaping that reduces spectral cooldowns, spectral walk will have a 48 second cooldown and yield 39 seconds of swiftness. In turn, locust swarm will yield 13 seconds of swiftness on a standard cooldown of 30 seconds.

No top end necro's take this trait

By combining these two skills and trait lines, you will have a permament swiftness buff. Obviously, there's more to it than that, but the point remains that if mobility is a problem for you, it is well within the reach of possibility to rectify that.



Your definition of control is woefully inadequate. According to dictionary.com, control can be defined as "to exercise restraint or direction over; to hold in check." Ultimately, control is the ability to excercise pre-emption in the development of events.

‚ÄčAgain a lack of experience and knowledge of Tpvp/Spvp. This isn't a battle of dictionary terms, this is about Tpvp/Spvp and what you woefully decide to not mention.

The only control that REALLY matters when deciding a comp is HARD control (Any Control that either Interrupts or allows for a focus)

Interrupts - Stun, Daze, Knock Down, Knock Back


Other forms great for focus - Immobilize

----

Essentially, the design of this first post is primarily light-hearted and unserious. If you're interested in serious analysis, don't fret, because you'll see that starting next week.

However, if you're looking for someone to ramble about how weak necromancers are, how broken our mechanics are, how buggy our skills are, and how useless death shroud is, this is not the place. First and foremost, I am a practical thinker. Moaning about what works and what doesn't accomplishes nothing; instead, I survey the system rationally and adapt to the situation as best as I can.

Do necromancers have issues at present? Definitely.

Will discussing how broken we are be the focus of this column? Definitely not.

Instead, expect me to focus on what we can do to be successful, what builds do work, and how to best leverage your strengths to your advantage across all three primary areas of the game. I intend, fully, to properly discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the profession, but I will do it in context of helping to design strategies that allow us to succeed and providing awareness for strategies and perspectives that have yielded dividends already.

I'm not attacking you in the terms of your whole article but that of which you bring up in terms of Spvp/Tpvp.

I know Jon Peters and many others (I Play a necro too, did BWE2-3 and live) stances (Erho, Draecor, etc). What you described and "countered" with me shows a lack of player knowledge and understanding of meta.

Also lets get this straight. The meta CONSTANTLY changes, simply saying that the "current" or "past" meta isn't to be reguarded is just plain bad taste.

Yes you used a BWE1 ss to describe CURRENT necro's and to talk about spvp/tpvp. I wasn't going to point that out but since you did. Why are you writing a CURRENT article with a very not so current photo?
- Again have you played necro in tournaments? Where is your Champ title? If not why do you think you have the ability to accurately write content about the necro in pvp without real evidence/creditably?

Also you should discuss the faults and issues with the current Necro. It's big and important and more informative and enlightening to future/current Necro players than the BS posted, which misinforms players to think Necro's are in a good place.

#17 ahamling27

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:24 PM

View PostAodan, on 06 October 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

-snip-
Wow, dude, just wow.

Here's a thought! Why don't you start your own thread and preach what you think everyone needs to know about Necromancers? I think you would get more respect doing that than slamming someone else's thread because you have different ideas about Necromancers.

#18 Aodan

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:56 PM

View Postahamling27, on 06 October 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Wow, dude, just wow.

Here's a thought! Why don't you start your own thread and preach what you think everyone needs to know about Necromancers? I think you would get more respect doing that than slamming someone else's thread because you have different ideas about Necromancers.

It's not just a matter of slamming him. Guru has horrible content writers and I asked them to write the Grd guide but instead they took Master Eriko who doesn't even competitively play tpvp.

Neato, Master Eriko, and now this guy. They lack credibility and skill/theory yet post articles like this. It's complete trash.

I don't comment on PvE and barely on WvW because there is a lot of room to talk about them and be right/credible. But I'm sick of people posting crap articles about spvp on a site at least 80% beginners go to, to study up.

Anet will handle their balancing well period, I just think it's way too misleading to allow an article like this to the front page with anything mentioning Spvp/Tpvp with no real credibility.

#19 SnowmanRelic

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

Speaking as a necro for over 500 years (I play necro in GuildWars) it seems like GW2 minions didnt even get similar AI to GW1, they dont respond well to threats and they completely forget anything that changes its position on the Z axis.

#20 Kaenes

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:45 PM

View PostSnowmanRelic, on 06 October 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Speaking as a necro for over 500 years (I play necro in GuildWars) it seems like GW2 minions didnt even get similar AI to GW1, they dont respond well to threats and they completely forget anything that changes its position on the Z axis.

Agreed, the AI could use a lot of polish. However, seeing how ranger pets have improved since BWE1 really reinforces that Anet can, and will, fix the AI issues. In the interim, I typically utilize minions as expendable utility and flesh shields, which they seem to do rather well at.

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