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It is time for our second round of Guru's State of the Game! A place where the most experienced players can have genuine and constructive discussion with equal and like-minded people, all in a serious environment.

Where and when?
State of the Game aims to be a monthly stream featuring only the most competitive teams in an hour long discussion about the current state of the game. The second event is scheduled to go live January 4th at 8 PM. GMT (12 PM. PST) on the own3d.tv/gw2guru channel.

Who will be attending?
After feedback from our previous show we have decided to cut down the amount of attending people to just three people. This way we can have a more genuine discussion where every player will get an opportunity to say something. Although we will not be featuring an ArenaNet developer for this show I promise you that they will be making an appearance in the future!

General Information:
Host: Grouchasaurus
Date: Jan 4th, 2013.
Time: Show will start at 12.PM PST - 8.PM GMT
Duration: Roughly an hour, depending on how the conversation is going.
Lineup: Javasocute, Vain, Xeph

If you missed our last show here is a chance to review it: Click Here!

And if you feel the need to get in touch with us for the show feel free to send me a PM on the forum or send me an email at [email protected]
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#1 Ziddy

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:12 AM

NIce.  No developer is pretty lame though.  Hopefully they listen to this whole discussion.

#2 B3aT

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:42 AM

I don`t know about competitive teams but I took my own state, I tryed again (after 2-3months) to reenter sPvP (not tournaments) and I hit the same wall :
- my party is 100% times split in the two teams
- the team with the most thiefs won the matches (each team had at least 2 at anytime)
- rebalancing the teams apperead too late for the comeback
- people that leave middle game are not punished (at least a CD to rejoin a match ?!)

These things happened 10 matches at a row, so I quit again, waiting for the feb update as my last hope.

#3 Rubajz

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 01:21 PM

View PostB3aT, on 31 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I think you dont understand meaning of Hotjoin. It is not supposed to be balanced or competetive, it is made for testing builds and warming up before tournament matches. But still, this game is pretty much dead if arenanet dont come with some miracle patch very soon.

#4 P4ndora

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:01 PM

View PostRubajz, on 31 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

But still, this game is pretty much dead if arenanet dont come with some miracle patch very soon.

Yeah it seems like they don't care much for the PvP part of the game. We still don't have duels which is an important feature for build testing or 1vs1 PvP. Also we only have a few maps and they are "conquer"-type only, and personally I dislike that type. I wish we have death match arenas or maybe CTF.
Funny thing that I bought this game mostly for PvP (as I consider myself a pvp person) but I haven't touched HotM since the first week after release (well only for free TP to LA). Glad I'm busy with getting my legendary in PvE, otherwise I would've left the game months ago. Hopefully by the time I finish my weapon the PvP will be improved.

#5 the butcher

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:42 PM

^ Custom arena's will fix that and it's incoming.

#6 B3aT

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

View PostRubajz, on 31 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I think you dont understand meaning of Hotjoin. It is not supposed to be balanced or competetive, it is made for testing builds and warming up before tournament matches. But still, this game is pretty much dead if arenanet dont come with some miracle patch very soon.
I think you mistake the dummies from the mists with the hotjoin, for most people this is the PvP ..not just warmups,only if we could compare the numbers of players hotjoin/turneys. Is like middle class/pro class, majority will not end up in tournaments.

Anyway bottom line, if people don't enjoy the easiest (fastest way-most accesible way) to sPvP in this game, how would they end up in tournaments ? Why to create/join a team when you see all sort of broken things around you.
Practices will be solved with custom arenas, then I`ll return to the mists only to practice.

#7 Aodan

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

1. Private Servers (Custom Arena) needs to be the primary focus
2. Solo/Duo Que for Paid Tournaments being separate from Full Team Que
3. Observer Mode or Spectator Client

There, Spvp/Cpvp is instantly revived.

All that's going to be talked about here is how Guardians are a Pivotal bunkers for most comps unless you run a balanced mobile comp.

There is really nothing to really "state" other than certain functions should be in the game by now and aren't, thus killing peoples interests in competitive pvp in this game.

View PostB3aT, on 31 December 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

I think you mistake the dummies from the mists with the hotjoin, for most people this is the PvP ..not just warmups,only if we could compare the numbers of players hotjoin/turneys. Is like middle class/pro class, majority will not end up in tournaments.

Anyway bottom line, if people don't enjoy the easiest (fastest way-most accesible way) to sPvP in this game, how would they end up in tournaments ? Why to create/join a team when you see all sort of broken things around you.
Practices will be solved with custom arenas, then I`ll return to the mists only to practice.

There was less support in this fashion for Counter Strike back in the days. It was basically just "hot join" and there have been countless numbers of teams who have risen to pro and tournaments.

But you are right, Custom Arena is what's needed, just like in CS or other "private lobby" supported games, this allows players/teams to practice and hone skills as well as host their own ran tournaments/ladders because, lets be honest. The QP ladder means shit and is a horrible system to "rate" or "rank" players.

All it shows is those who can stay at the top, or play oftenly enough to be listed.

Even in pugs, I've gotten 400+ against Qt, JBUO, ALFA, etc. The issue is that because I only play 2-3 days during "QP" prime time, I can't solidify myself on a team or even hope to make one. Being limited to Mon-Thu 6pm-11pm PST is ridiculous. That right there should tell Anet that their tournament system and QP ladder are crap.

#8 Alaroxr

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostRubajz, on 31 December 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I think you dont understand meaning of Hotjoin. It is not supposed to be balanced or competetive, it is made for testing builds and warming up before tournament matches.

Maybe that's the problem. Your options are:

1.) Play in uncoordinated matches by yourself
2.) Get facerolled by experienced teams farming in free tournaments with friends
3.) Wait for an hour to get uber-facerolled by the best teams in paid tournaments

There's no option for casual play with friends. It's either casual solo, or tournament with a team.

IMO you have to build from the base up. You have to attract more players to do PvP. You can't attract them unless the entry is easier, and the way to do that is by making sPvP more social, which it is not.

Edit:

View PostAodan, on 31 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

1. Private Servers (Custom Arena) needs to be the primary focus
2. Solo/Duo Que for Paid Tournaments being separate from Full Team Que
3. Observer Mode or Spectator Client

There, Spvp/Cpvp is instantly revived.

All that's going to be talked about here is how Guardians are a Pivotal bunkers for most comps unless you run a balanced mobile comp.

There is really nothing to really "state" other than certain functions should be in the game by now and aren't, thus killing peoples interests in competitive pvp in this game.

QFT

#9 Skyro

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:22 AM

One really really simple thing that ANet can do that I think can help garner more interest in sPvP in the community is to detach HotM from your chosen server and change it to "districts" that you can jump in and out of. Maybe label the different districts as "beginner," "LFG," etc.

Some servers have completely barren HotM and players on those servers struggle to find PUGs for tournies. A lot of competent PUGs can be formed via map chat, which will lead to more activity, more permanent teams forming, etc. There's absolutely no reason to attach HotM to your chosen server given how your server is completely inconsequential to anything you do in sPvP.

The difference in trying to form up a PUG in say, Anvil Rock compared to a server like Jade Quarry is night and day, and given the nature of how overflow servers work and such I don't think this would be very hard for ANet to implement at all.

#10 kvantum789

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:57 PM

cs and other games that has turnd out to be great esports game has one thing income and that is comes from the players
u can do alot but if u dont get it to root it its over this game is on its way down to the grave
frirst u have to get the big mass of the non pros to get back in to the game the are the once that will pay and set the road for the pro players and yes spec and priv servers is a most to right now the have to turn this around
and so far Anet is talking BS its not what the are saying is what the are doing that u should look for
btw i am all for gamma wolfs vids he has i down to the nail about what Anet most do

#11 Mutilate

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostAodan, on 31 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

1. Private Servers (Custom Arena) needs to be the primary focus
2. Solo/Duo Que for Paid Tournaments being separate from Full Team Que
3. Observer Mode or Spectator Client

There, Spvp/Cpvp is instantly revived.

All that's going to be talked about here is how Guardians are a Pivotal bunkers for most comps unless you run a balanced mobile comp.

There is really nothing to really "state" other than certain functions should be in the game by now and aren't, thus killing peoples interests in competitive pvp in this game.



There was less support in this fashion for Counter Strike back in the days. It was basically just "hot join" and there have been countless numbers of teams who have risen to pro and tournaments.

But you are right, Custom Arena is what's needed, just like in CS or other "private lobby" supported games, this allows players/teams to practice and hone skills as well as host their own ran tournaments/ladders because, lets be honest. The QP ladder means shit and is a horrible system to "rate" or "rank" players.

All it shows is those who can stay at the top, or play oftenly enough to be listed.

Even in pugs, I've gotten 400+ against Qt, JBUO, ALFA, etc. The issue is that because I only play 2-3 days during "QP" prime time, I can't solidify myself on a team or even hope to make one. Being limited to Mon-Thu 6pm-11pm PST is ridiculous. That right there should tell Anet that their tournament system and QP ladder are crap.

Another very important thing is to have a rating system for tourneys like WoW for example, anet have already implemented the EVO chess system into WvW, why is it so hard to do the same thing with sPvP when they've got time enough to do huge one-time events like xmas and halloween?

#12 Aodan

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostMutilate, on 01 January 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Another very important thing is to have a rating system for tourneys like WoW for example, anet have already implemented the EVO chess system into WvW, why is it so hard to do the same thing with sPvP when they've got time enough to do huge one-time events like xmas and halloween?

I feel that a rating system, within a game is bs, esp at this stage of the game and shouldn't be a focus.
1. There isn't enough new players entering the brackets to need an ELO /rating system, and many games like CS and others have done fine without one in them internally.
2. WoW probably has the only working rating system in a MMO simply because they have TONS of players filtering in and out and their Rating system is built more off of win/loss ratio then simply a QP climb.
3. The system of Rank doesn't work either, there are people who have gotten r50+ through simply hot join, yet if they entered Tournaments and got paired up against ppl who go r50+ mainly through tournaments, it would be like them being r20 or below player. The current rank system means jack other than that you've put "time" into the game.

There is not enough of a current player base to support ANY internal rating system. So no, IT IS NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL for a rating system to be put into the game right now.

What IS IMPORTANT is custom arena's. This should be the primary focus as this will create:
1. Buzz for the game through outside ladders/tournaments (which will be a better rating of skill than any current rating system they would put in)
2. Create an atmosphere of competitive play and practice, also an entry area for those crossing with friends from Hot Join to Tournaments.
3. It would allow competitive play OUTSIDE of the 6 hour window that is current Paid Ques [M-Th] (6pm-12pm PST)

#3 is one of the BIGGEST reasons apart from retarded QP system, that many players have left this game apart from the fact that you will almost always end up going against a top tier team in round 2 or 3 of paids unless your just lucky and get a que round and avoid them.

For players like me, running into top teams isn't a big issue, heck that's the only time I really get to enjoy the game. But for more casual players or less competitive getting curb stomped kills their reason to play.

#13 Grouch

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:04 AM

I'm pretty excited for round two. Anything in particular that you guys would like to see discussed?

#14 Rubajz

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostAodan, on 01 January 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

That is absolutely not true. Reason why is pvp in this game so dead is absence of motivation to play and issues with matchmaking. When you are newbie and you are trying free tournaments for first few times, you get facerolled by teams playing them for some time and it not get better, because when losing 100 to 500, you are not learning anything. Why these team plays free and dont go to paids? Because they get facerolled there by few teams playing them repeatedly on a daily basis. Again, if you get destroyed with score under 300, you are not learning anything.

Reason why cs is fine without any ranking system is same as you argued for wow. Huge fanbase and really active scene.
You cant get this in almost dead game. Rating system is only thing that can pour new players into pvp and shield them from veteran teams.

Custom arenas dont solve anything, because there are not enough people to use them at their max potential at this time and, in my opinion, you dont get to increase your skill level by playing with teams in custom arenas. You can only play with your friends, which they are usually at similiar skill level, and then maybe few matches with unknown team to you, which destroy you easily until it stops entertaining them or the other way around. Anyway, planning matches is much more difficult and time consuming when compared to automated tournament system. Also it will not bring new players into game.

As I see it, only thing that can save this game is matchmaking/rating system, spectator mode and only then, after all this is implemented, custom arenas.

#15 Skyro

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:43 AM

I dunno it's like you guys argue in circles about MMR and custom servers. It's really going to be all in the implementation. If custom servers are expensive and nobody can afford them except for a small subset of people then it'll do nothing to increase the playerbase, just the small teams that can afford them will use them for their own purposes and not much else happens. They have to be cheap enough so that a lot of people can afford to make them so people will open them up to the public and there has to be enough customization in there so people can play around with a lot of stuff to make it fun again. And there has to be some interface so that people can see these public custom servers and descriptions and all that jazz so people can pick and choose what settings interest them.

And a MMR-system in the current tourney system won't solve much either as there isn't enough people queuing for tournies for it to make much of a difference. They would have to do single queue matching like old GW1 GvG for it to be of much benefit.

There's a lot of ANet's plate right now frankly. Everybody's going to have to give this game like another 6-12 months to get all this stuff in most likely.

#16 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:10 AM

Do folks REALLY enjoy PvP with pets and stealth? Especially combined with a shitty GUI and an even shittier view-distance.

#17 B3aT

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:20 PM

The talk here is about what devs did wrong/should do/will do, we need to keep it real and disscuss about the current state ..and how we play it..

View PostGrouch, on 02 January 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I'm pretty excited for round two. Anything in particular that you guys would like to see discussed?

1. The criterias behind choosing builds : for their role in the team, based on oponents professions, specific counter (ex anti bunker, anti thief etc)
2. Are sponsors started to get interested in GW2 matches ? The A teams were contacted / they searches for sponsors ?
3. The jan-feb updates will be the apogee in GW2 timeline as number of players / popularity ? I think the hype is over and soon will be gone, this will be the last chance to bring big number of new players ?

#18 Aodan

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostRubajz, on 02 January 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

That is absolutely not true. Reason why is pvp in this game so dead is absence of motivation to play and issues with matchmaking. When you are newbie and you are trying free tournaments for first few times, you get facerolled by teams playing them for some time and it not get better, because when losing 100 to 500, you are not learning anything. Why these team plays free and dont go to paids? Because they get facerolled there by few teams playing them repeatedly on a daily basis. Again, if you get destroyed with score under 300, you are not learning anything.

Reason why cs is fine without any ranking system is same as you argued for wow. Huge fanbase and really active scene.
You cant get this in almost dead game. Rating system is only thing that can pour new players into pvp and shield them from veteran teams.

Custom arenas dont solve anything, because there are not enough people to use them at their max potential at this time and, in my opinion, you dont get to increase your skill level by playing with teams in custom arenas. You can only play with your friends, which they are usually at similiar skill level, and then maybe few matches with unknown team to you, which destroy you easily until it stops entertaining them or the other way around. Anyway, planning matches is much more difficult and time consuming when compared to automated tournament system. Also it will not bring new players into game.

As I see it, only thing that can save this game is matchmaking/rating system, spectator mode and only then, after all this is implemented, custom arenas.

Cause a MMR system is really going to work. You still haven't even addressed or solved the issue that if you have a MMR system with a lower player base all you get is either uneven matches yet again or VERY long que times. Paids already suffer from that.

Custom will bring in viewership through outside tournaments/ladders, it will also allow for lower tier tournaments/ladders to take place (OGL, CAL i, etc) where newer players can compete and hopefully gain experience other than getting stomped 100-500.

A MMR system won't fix that, Customs will. So no, I'm sorry, if you think a MMR system will save this game, you are so dead wrong. No one is going to think "oh gw2 has a new rating system, lets play it"

Not to mention that Hot Join, Free's, Paids won't really support a 3rd or separate MMR.

Low Pop = Long Que times (if they are not unevenly matched)
Long Que Times = Drop

Low Pop still getting matched up against uneven matches = drop

I really can't see how a MMR system is going to Fix ANYTHING.
You simply run into two huge issues implementing a new MMR in the current game.

While Custom Arena automatically fixes a huge bunch of issues: Practice, Outside Tournaments/Ladders, Viewership increase = New players.