[Briar]

The Map Resizes After Loading

The following is a guess at how the Crystal Desert will flood after Palawa Joko dams the River Elon, I have divided the map up into sections based on there original locations in GW1 an attempted to explain why I believe these areas will flood based on the limited lore.

If you have any suggestions and/or corrections feel free to post them.

The Crystal Desert

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The Guild Wars Manuscripts:
Legends tell of a time, thousands of years ago, when the Crystal Desert was covered in water. These legends claim that it was the gods who raised the land, leaving it bare and empty in order to give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own. If the legends are true, humans were not among those for whom this land was made. There have been attempts by humans to settle in the desert, but they have, without exception, failed miserably, leaving behind only the grand monuments they built here proclaiming their short-lived triumph over this harsh land.

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Movement of the World
Within sixty years of Kormir's rise to godhood, Palawa Joko mustered his former power and marched a new army of mummies, zombies, and other undead out of the Crystal Desert into war with Vabbi. To ensure his dominance, Palawa dammed and diverted the river Elon, causing drought and famine amid the northern provinces of Elona and creating a green and growing area within the Crystal Desert. In this area, Palawa Joko established the seat of his new kingdom.

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Ghostly Hero, Thirsty River
"It might be hard to believe but many hundreds of years ago, much of the sand and sun-baked dunes were completely underwater. The Margonites, as you might have surmised by their architecture, were a sea-going culture, and they simply floated their way out here, looking for Ascension, back when only the tops of dunes stuck out of the water.
They did not understand there is no earthly way to reach Ascension. Only by proving yourself worthy to the gods will they allow you access to their realm."

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Sky Scholar:
"The Crystal Desert will become a Crystal Sea... when the stars align and the darkness lifts."

Seekers Passage, Diviners Ascent, Salt Flats

This area was part of the ancient seabed. it is littered with the skeletons of aquatic organisms and also has a unique shade of sand caused by a different mineral composition (I.E salt mixed in with the sand) There are still small pools of water throughout the area therefore I believe this area will be underwater.

Elona Reach

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In Game Description:
This desolated outpost overlooks the skeletal remains of what might once have been a bustling seaport. Brackish puddles are all that remain of the water that once meant life to fishermen and traders alike. Today, rotted pilings and tattered sailcloth are all that mark this ghost harbor.

From the in game description it becomes quite obvious that Elona Reach was never underwater even when the desert was flooded in the past. Through this its safe to presume that it rests on high enough land to not be flooded but since it is completely surrounded by salt flat sand I have placed it as an island.

Thirsty River

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In Game Description
One look at this dry and desolated gorge tells the tale of its naming. Where once flowed a mighty river that shaped the land over millennia, now wind and sand make their way along deep channels, now little more than an echo of the past.

Okay I think its safe to presume that thirsty river was never underwater since you can't have a river flowing underwater. I think when Joko diverted the Elon River it would have rushed into this ancient river refilling it. Water naturally try's to find the lowest area and the river is a natural valley. (Also I have a theory that Joko is trying to recreate the desert like how he remembers it while he was alive) The water comes from elona so it has to travel across the desert somehow.

The Scar

Subsection of thirsty river. UNDERWATER

Destiny's Gorge

This is another subsection of the river however it is way to close to the salt flats that it actually looks unnatural if the river continues its course therefore I have made the river burst its banks and fill the salt flats.

The Amnoon Oasis

I have turned Amnoon into an island, this is do to the prevalence of "salt flats" sand apparently running along the top of the oasis and the thirsty river running along the bottom half in Prophet's Path Amnoon itself however shows no sign of ever being underwater. Note the structures on ether side of the island, I have marked these as the most probable locations for Dams in the Crystal Desert as placing them here would force the water to backlog into the salt flats.

Prophet's Path

This area has what appears to be a sub section of the Thirsty River, Also of note this portion is actually deeper than the salt flats. So I put that valley underwater.

Heroes' Audience

Subsection of the above water portion of Prophet's Path. ABOVE WATER.

Augury Rock

both the outpost is perched on a high rocky cliff and the rock itself IS a high rocky cliff. I doubt that these would be underwater also no salt sand.

Skyward Reach

I have flooded the area around Augury rock since there was water around there to begin with. If you want an explanation its because sand is porous and as the water table rose the area flooded (okay maybe i just think it looks pretty)

Dunes of Despair

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In Game Description
The barren desert landscape here is broken only by tall, surprisingly urban-like ruins that mark a people's failed attempt at Ascension. Made of wood from the ships that brought them to the desert's shores and bricks made of sand and mud, the structures have withstood the harsh desert weather surprisingly well. The people who built them, unfortunately did not...

From this description it looks like the dunes were above water when the structures were built. However this could still be after the Sea drained, its people could have dragged the materials from Amnoon. HOWEVER I see no evidence of water, therefore it is not underwater (joko has to have land somewhere)

Vulture Drifts

Same as Dunes, No evidence of water I know about so ABOVE WATER.

The Arid Sea

Strange Area, since the zone is named "Sea" you would presume it is underwater however the sand is the normal "saltless, above water shade" and there are numerous buildings matching the architecture of the Dunes of Despair; therefore I put it above water.

Tomb of the Primeval Kings

Ok this area is iffy. To the best of my knowledge the primeval kings were around before and after the crystal sea drained. And depending when the tombs were built they could be underwater or above water. However since the tombs are so far away from the rest of the desert and Elona itself I highly doubt that the kings would build a tomb there if the sea was already drained. It's more likely that the tombs were built while the sea was still there and the kings traveled the desert over water in order to get between the tombs and Elona.

The Dragon's Lair

Yes almost done typing. The Dragon's lair is part of the valley that the tombs are are part of. If the tombs flood then it's likely the lair will flood and vice versa. Therefore I put it above water.

Thanks for reading. :)

Edited by Briar, 16 September 2009 - 02:30 AM.

[draxynnic]

Holy giant image, Batman!

Please resize or put it behind a link...

EDIT: Looks interesting overall. I'm curious too see how well this would link up to a similar analysis on the Desolation.

Edited by draxynnic, 15 September 2009 - 03:20 PM.

[Briar]

draxynnic said:

Holy giant image, Batman!

Please resize or put it behind a link...

Sorry still trying to figure out how these forums work

Edit:

Can't get it to re-size into a respectable size. Just going to have to deal with the oversized image onslaught until GW2G rescues you

Edited by Briar, 15 September 2009 - 03:33 PM.

[draxynnic]

That looks better, although I noticed that when the forum finally autoresized it (after loading the initial image) to something around 600x, it was still readable at that size (while the thumbnail isn't). Might be worth considering resizing the image to something that fits but is still readable.

[snograt]

Briar said:

The Dragon's lair is part of the valley that the tombs are are part of. If the tombs flood then it's likely the lair will flood and vice versa. Therefore I put it above water.

Is the Dragon's Lair not contained within one, single grain of sand - in essence a pocket universe?

[Briar]

snograt said:

Is the Dragon's Lair not contained within one, single grain of sand - in essence a pocket universe?

That it is but the outpost itself and the portal that leads to the pocket dimension is very much part of the valley of the primeval kings and could become flooded.

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The great dragon prophet, Glint, is not easy to find, for she uses powerful magics to make her lair inside a single crystalline grain of sand. A person could search a hundred lifetimes and never find the exact grain. The only true entrance is through this portal, beyond the challenges of Augury Rock.

That is I am referring to the outpost and the portal not the actual lair

[Mister_Smiley]

I like your idea, but i think more would be flooded as well. Also i think that the Dragon's Layer would be gone because it has places in which water can flow out causing it to flood.

[Corpsesarefun]

The MASSIVE issue with your map is the dams are in the wrong places... palawa joko dammed the river elon in places to CUT OFF water to vabbi, your dam system would instead increase flow into vabbi and flood the desert.

daming in both the places you stated AND a location further south where the elon enters elona would be closer to the truth.

[Arghore]

Corpsesarefun said:

A POSSIBLE issue with your map is the dams MIGHT be in the wrong places... palawa joko dammed the river elon in places to cut off water to vabbi, your dam system would .... flood the desert.

daming a location further south where the elon enters elona MIGHT be closer to the truth.

Just to point out that untill the map is released by A-net, we can only speculate... so i just had to change your post a bit :)
hope you wont percieve this as an attack, as its not intended in such a way, it is merely to point out that you put things in such a way, that makes it look asthough your idea is the truth, which ofcourse (unless you work at A-net) is just a speculation :)

---------

Seeing i have been looking at the desert aswell, when i flooded it for my concept map of Tyria_GW2 ... it was nice to see you flooded large parts of the desert in a similar way :) ... differences, you flooded more parts to the north, and you left amnoon oasis on an island ... I flooded Amnoon mainly because of the 'oasis' infront/west of the town, that part led me to conclude that there had to be a river ending there at one point in time (the triangle shape is found at most river ending near the sea ... thus, i would think that the river flooding parts of said desert would eventually end in a big river, leaving the desert at Amnoon oasis ... which would mean that the dam's you placed arnt realy needed :) ... this also has to do with how the desert floods:

The moment Palowa diverts the river it will try find another way to flow to the sea. This will always be the lowest point, so like you i used the Thirsty river bed to have the river divert into the crystal desert ... this will then flood the area called 'the scar' ... water will keep flowing into this area untill a lake is formed this lake then fills up to where it reaches its lowest bank... from this point the river will form again flowing further into the desert ... towards destiny's gorge, from there on it will flood lower area's untill these are flooded... and again, aslong as these lakes(water table) are lower then the lowest banks these will continue to fill up, untill the level is reached from where the river can continue flowing ... etc. etc. untill it reaches the sea, where this will act as a constant out flow of excess water... (from the looks of the delta infront/west of Amnoon, i had percieved this to be the endpoint for the river)

But then there is also this :( ... the dunes all over that area (like you described so well) are both sand and minerals, these minerals will desolve in water and large parts of the dunes will just disappear, were the sand will sink to the bottom (or be transported to a lake or to the sea) ... unfortuntly these dunes make up large parts of the whole area, which means it is hard for us to determain the low points in the area, which will determain the flow of the river, and also which parts will flood ...

To put an end to this large wall of text, i would agree with the flow of the river upto destinies gorge... and possible the flooding of Skyward (it would be connected to the river though, if it were to fill up, unless you assume the ground water table causes it to fill up, in which case more places would flood ;) ) ... i think you might have flooded tomuch of the rest of the desert, but i had the same problem of figuring out the lay of the land so it could well be this extensive... and i would have this river end in the existing delta near Amnoon (also since the rise of Orr will send a wave into this desert which will clear a path for the river to flow through) ... meaning you dont need those dam's there, only one dam, the one diverting the river in Elona :)

Edited by Arghore, 15 September 2009 - 09:42 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Briar said:

The following is a guess at how the Crystal Desert will flood after Palawa Joko dams the River Elon

I HIGHLY doubt the Elon river has enough force and flow to flood the Crystal Desert. Why? Take a look at the desolation, everywhere you see the sulfurous sands is where the water would go before going into the Crystal Desert. There is no way, even with 250 years and no outlet, that the water reaches beyond the southern Crystal Desert.

Aside from that Sky Scholar (who's dialogue was made before GW2's plan), there is no support for the Crystal Desert flooding. Becoming greener, yes, but remember, the Desolation is considered a sub-region of the Crystal Desert (presumed to have been the shore of the Crystal Sea).

And I am unsure if that quote of the scholar can be accurate, the pause makes me think that he is just making it up. Also, if that is some sort of prophecy, when did the stars align? What darkness lifted?

Besides, you really trust someone who focuses on the sky to know what occurs in another continent?

Briar said:

Seekers Passage, Diviners Ascent, Salt Flats

This area was part of the ancient seabed. it is littered with the skeletons of aquatic organisms and also has a unique shade of sand caused by a different mineral composition (I.E salt mixed in with the sand) There are still small pools of water throughout the area therefore I believe this area will be underwater.

That only shows that the place was flooded, when the area was the Crystal Sea.

Briar said:

Elona Reach

From the in game description it becomes quite obvious that Elona Reach was never underwater even when the desert was flooded in the past. Through this its safe to presume that it rests on high enough land to not be flooded but since it is completely surrounded by salt flat sand I have placed it as an island.

I think, in comparison to your map, less should be flooded, as the entire mission area is higher than the salt flats.

Briar said:

Thirsty River

Okay I think its safe to presume that thirsty river was never underwater since you can't have a river flowing underwater. I think when Joko diverted the Elon River it would have rushed into this ancient river refilling it. Water naturally try's to find the lowest area and the river is a natural valley. (Also I have a theory that Joko is trying to recreate the desert like how he remembers it while he was alive) The water comes from elona so it has to travel across the desert somehow.

There are many other places water can reach the Crystal Desert from Elona. I would also assume that the river wasn't (or more accurately, won't be) a nice one way path (i.e., the mission area would flood to make little ponds along the river).

Off-topic a bit: We have no knowledge of how old Joko is, so he might not have ever seen the Crystal Sea.

Briar said:

Dunes of Despair

From this description it looks like the dunes were above water when the structures were built. However this could still be after the Sea drained, its people could have dragged the materials from Amnoon. HOWEVER I see no evidence of water, therefore it is not underwater (joko has to have land somewhere)

Er... those structures are from Turai and the pilgrimage Elonians. They traveled to the Crystal Desert 200 years before Prophecies, the Crystal Sea became a desert during year 0 (over 1,000 years before Prophecies). So yeah, the structures were above water as there was no water.


Overall, I think the idea that the Crystal Desert floods is a silly one, seeing how we have NO support for this. And, as I said, it is near impossible that the Elon River has even near enough power and water to flood the Crystal Desert. Unless Joko had a ton of Ice Elementalists transfer large blocks of ice from the Shiverpeaks, I don't think the Crystal Desert flooded at all. And as I said before, the Desolation is considered a part of the Crystal Desert, so when the Movement speaks of the Crystal Desert becoming green, it probably means the Desolation.

Also, guys, it is dam, not damn.

[Arghore]

How do i get the impression Konig does not like flooding :p

Konig Des Todes said:

I HIGHLY doubt the Elon river has enough force and flow to flood the Crystal Desert. Why? Take a look at the desolation, everywhere you see the sulfurous sands is where the water would go before going into the Crystal Desert. There is no way, even with 250 years and no outlet, that the water reaches beyond the southern Crystal Desert.

250y is a long time, and water will find the lowest bank and move on ... it doesnt need force, it just needs time...

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Aside from that Sky Scholar (who's dialogue was made before GW2's plan), there is no support for the Crystal Desert flooding. Becoming greener, yes, but remember, the Desolation is considered a sub-region of the Crystal Desert (presumed to have been the shore of the Crystal Sea).

And I am unsure if that quote of the scholar can be accurate, the pause makes me think that he is just making it up. Also, if that is some sort of prophecy, when did the stars align? What darkness lifted?

Well atleast it is A source... dont know when the stars aligned, perhaps when we finally get a NIGHT we would be able to see them .... but the darkness lifted that surely hints at the end of Nightfall ;)

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Besides, you really trust someone who focuses on the sky to know what occurs in another continent?

there are those that believe their influence goes asfar as determaning a persons life :angel:

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That only shows that the place was flooded, when the area was the Crystal Sea.

if it was flooded it can thus flood again... the fact that it was flooded largely means that right there is a 2e source of it possibly flooding again ...

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There are many other places water can reach the Crystal Desert from Elona. I would also assume that the river wasn't (or more accurately, won't be) a nice one way path (i.e., the mission area would flood to make little ponds along the river).

sorta "erhmmm'ed" here, first you say it wont be flooded, but then you are concerned with puddles :surprised:

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Off-topic a bit: We have no knowledge of how old Joko is, so he might not have ever seen the Crystal Sea.

he would have heard from the it though, but intill we know why he is moving north, we wont know why he want to flood anything.. or perhaps he doesnt want to flood anything, but is more concerned about starving the elona people...

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Overall, I think the idea that the Crystal Desert floods is a silly one, seeing how we have NO support for this. And, as I said, it is near impossible that the Elon River has even near enough power and water to flood the Crystal Desert. Unless Joko had a ton of Ice Elementalists transfer large blocks of ice from the Shiverpeaks, I don't think the Crystal Desert flooded at all. And as I said before, the Desolation is considered a part of the Crystal Desert, so when the Movement speaks of the Crystal Desert becoming green, it probably means the Desolation.

If you were to check this map ... http://wiki.guildwar...7/7a/GW_Map.jpg ... you will see that the most logical place for Palowa to cut off flow of water to Elona would be at the spring of said river, being north/west of the 'Halls of Chokhin' ... doing so he would divert the river away from the desolation to a northern flow, right into the crystal desert ... and now i take an even better look at this, this makes even more sense, as it would probably force the river into its old bedding, which was 'Thrusty River' ... mainly seeing a river needs a spring (so thirsty river spring should have been somewhere south, only spring there now fills the Elona river, so if you would to divert this river it would try and find the lowest way out, which would be north ... in other words somewhere along history the flow from that spring changed from ending/filling the crystal desert, and found another way to flow out, this became through Elona, putting a Dam in the northern region would mean it will find the next lowest point, which very likely would be the old bedding ...

(would you be more likely to agree with the crystal desert flooding if i dont flush the Asura from the south of Tarnished coast, sort of a trade off perhaps ;) )

To this i would also like to add the following... rivers are formed (and form themselves) by two means... either there are area's that are so low, they are lower then the ground water table, meaning these trenches fill with ground water, if these trenches get ever lower the water will start to flow out or atleast fill this low laying land almost upto ground water table ... then there are the rivers that form because of non permeable ground structures be it clay (which is some cases get formed in prementioned 'rivers', and is almost constantly formed in the slow moving parts of a river) or hard bedrock, water then flows from higher grounds to lower ground, over this non permeable rock/clay, this water does not fill groundwater levels (seeing its banks are non permeable) ...

this last type seems to be the case in Elona, where you see a river, but still the place is largely desert, meaning, the water from said river hardly fills the ground water table, meaning plants still dont have water, thus, desert ...

Now the crystal desert, this is said to have once been a sea, meaning most of the ground beneath the sand would be sea clay, depending on the layer of sand between survace and this clay, the river could well fill up the ground water table, and with this flood area's that at sight are not connected to the river (but are connected by groundwater) ... depending on where this clay is and wether this is deposited evenly, one could even emagine places staying desert like, right next to a lush greenery closeby, meaning, apparently there is a large non permeable natural dike/dam that prevents water flowing in said direction, as the water will take the direction of least resistance/lowest point, filling ground water table on the other side of the river causing a lush greenery ... while still continuing to flow downwards to the lowest point, once the ground water table is 'filled' ... (hope i explained this good enough to make sense :) )

[ArlanKels]

Konig Des Todes said:

Overall, I think the idea that the Crystal Desert floods is a silly one, seeing how we have NO support for this. And, as I said, it is near impossible that the Elon River has even near enough power and water to flood the Crystal Desert. Unless Joko had a ton of Ice Elementalists transfer large blocks of ice from the Shiverpeaks, I don't think the Crystal Desert flooded at all. And as I said before, the Desolation is considered a part of the Crystal Desert, so when the Movement speaks of the Crystal Desert becoming green, it probably means the Desolation.

Wow, I was just making a comment about this in the Thread of whatchamacallit, and lo and behold BLAM here it is already being talked about in full length by tons of people.

*ahem*

In terms of support for the flooding of the Crystal Desert, I deposit unto you:

Ghostly Hero, Thirsty River said:

"It might be hard to believe but many hundreds of years ago, much of the sand and sun-baked dunes were completely underwater. The Margonites, as you might have surmised by their architecture, were a sea-going culture, and they simply floated their way out here, looking for Ascension, back when only the tops of dunes stuck out of the water.
They did not understand there is no earthly way to reach Ascension. Only by proving yourself worthy to the gods will they allow you access to their realm."

So we know at least that the Crystal Desert has been submerged at one point.
Said submersion was only shallow, at best, as parts of the dunes were still sticking out of the water.
This is similar to a flooding.

[Konig Des Todes]

ArlanKes... the Crystal Desert was an entire sea before the Exodus. The event of the sea turning into a desert was not natural. And it by far doesn't mean it will be submerged again.

[Calienté]

I was under the impression that the gods RAISED the crystal desert from the shallow sea it was before, and was therefor a gulf connected to the sea of sorrows (unless Orr was in fact a land bridge before it blew up instead of a peninsula).

this means that if it was flooded before, it was from sea water, not an overflowing river, and trying to plot the elon rivers' course cant be based on "what used to be underwater"

edit: shoot, konig beat me to it

[Briar]

Konig Des Todes said:

Unless Joko had a ton of Ice Elementalists transfer large blocks of ice from the Shiverpeaks, I don't think the Crystal Desert flooded at all. And as I said before, the Desolation is considered a part of the Crystal Desert, so when the Movement speaks of the Crystal Desert becoming green, it probably means the Desolation.

I arrived at the same conclusion that you did Konig. "How could the river possibly flood a whole desert?"

but think of this -

• We already have an in game view of a dam structure from the GW2 trailer.
  
  
• Hydroelectric dams in real life create giant lakes behind them - this is the reason why hydroelectric dams have such a massive environmental influence.
  
  
• since we know we are not going to play in Elona this cannot be the dam diverting the Elon as the Elon runs almost dead center the Elonian continent.

Take note of the yellow lines near Amnoon Oasis those are proposed dam structures in GW2 the salt flats area is the giant lake generated by those dams.

[Roy]

A much more logical reason for it to be flooded would be the rise of the Orian dragon (I know the name, but I can't spell). LA was flooded, why not the desert?

[ShadowedSin]

Roy said:

A much more logical reason for it to be flooded would be the rise of the Orian dragon (I know the name, but I can't spell). LA was flooded, why not the desert?

When until a full world map is revealed there is no evidence back up this assumption.

[Roy]

True, but it is far more logical than the river idea...

[Konig Des Todes]

Briar said:

I arrived at the same conclusion that you did Konig. "How could the river possibly flood a whole desert?"

but think of this -

• We already have an in game view of a dam structure from the GW2 trailer.
  
• Hydroelectric dams in real life create giant lakes behind them - this is the reason why hydroelectric dams have such a massive environmental influence.
  
• since we know we are not going to play in Elona this cannot be the dam diverting the Elon as the Elon runs almost dead center the Elonian continent.

Take note of the yellow lines near Amnoon Oasis those are proposed dam structures in GW2 the salt flats area is the giant lake generated by those dams.

Who says the dam is even in the desert area? We only see a arid-like area. Why not at the river at the north of the Giant's Basin? That is arid enough according to the GW1 map.

Who says that if the dam is in the Crystal Desert, it is at the location which you place it/them? Why not near the Thirsty River or the Scar to prevent the Crystal Desert from flooding?

Besides, that dam is unlikely to be the one diverting the Elon as the one shown seems to still be under construction.

Who said we won't even see a part of Elona in a cinematic? That bit could easily be of a cinematic about what has changed in Elona or something.

Roy said:

A much more logical reason for it to be flooded would be the rise of the Orian dragon (I know the name, but I can't spell). LA was flooded, why not the desert?

Two words go against that idea: The angle.

To elaborate, the angle in which the water which would cause the waves from the water at Orr, would not go down the already curvy river to Amnoon.

Overall, we have nothing to imply that the Crystal Desert is a sea in GW2.

[ArlanKels]

Technically any dam will be arid, or dry looking on the side where none or almost none of the water is present.
They always have a dry, rocky and rather..um..dry...look. Every dam I've ever seen of any worthwhile size, at least.

Of course that only counts for when the dam is actually retaining most if not all of the water. When it's a dam that barely controls the river then it doesn't really have a significant impact on the arid/dryness of the non-dammed side.


I believe the only comments about the Crystal Desert so far is that some of it has become bountiful/grown in/you know what I mean.

[Briar]

Added Ghostly hero and movement of the world quotes for sake of accuracy

Was there a quote from Anet saying that the desolation is getting water too? I just did a quick scan over of the area and there is no hints that any part of it was underwater in the past (not thinking that if it was not underwater in the past it could not become flooded in the future)

[Sha Noran]

WAIT.

The Crystal Sea was still a Sea 1 year before the exodus of the gods. This leads me to believe that their raising of the seabed to its current elevation was not to "give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own", though this would be a natural assumption for a religious scholar attempting to explain the world around him to others. Instead, I believe it may have had something to do with their conflict with Abaddon (and possibly others, unnamed).

Scriptures of Abaddon said:

And so it came to pass that Jadoth, being persecuted by the horrific Forgotten armies, and hounded from his home, did seek refuge among the cooling mists of the Crystal Sea. Untold weeks passed as Jadoth huddled in his sanctuary, with nothing to see save the endless ripples of the boundless ocean.

On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.

And prayed Jadoth, "Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.

-- Scriptures of Abaddon, 1BE

Perhaps the Crystal Sea became inaccessible to the gods after this time, at which point they raised the seabed to end the maelstrom and fix the wrong caused by the already mad Abaddon.

An interesting thought to ponder that this brought up in my head: Could this be why Glint hides in this area? Because she is trying to avoid drawing the attention of the true gods? Perhaps the conflict between Glint's Forgotten armies and Abaddon's Margonites (and many others) became so out of control that it led the gods to forsake Glint and try to wipe the whole slate clean, at which point she hid herself in a pocket dimension... and she being a prophet has a very interesting correlation to knowing secrets, doesn't it...

Edited by Sha Noran, 16 September 2009 - 02:58 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Briar said:

Added Ghostly hero and movement of the world quotes for sake of accuracy

Was there a quote from Anet saying that the desolation is getting water too? I just did a quick scan over of the area and there is no hints that any part of it was underwater in the past (not thinking that if it was not underwater in the past it could not become flooded in the future)

Due to being a asub-region of the Crystal Desert, and due to how the area looks, people believe that the Desolation was the shore of the Crystal Sea in the past. The parts which would be underwater was basically the sulfurous sands portions (and a little more), which would result in various lakes and rivers, along with a bit of a shore in the Crystal Overlook. Though it cannot be sure for north of the explorable areas.

Sha Noran said:

The Crystal Sea was still a Sea 1 year before the exodus of the gods. This leads me to believe that their raising of the seabed to its current elevation was not to "give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own", though this would be a natural assumption for a religious scholar attempting to explain the world around him to others. Instead, I believe it may have had something to do with their conflict with Abaddon (and possibly others, unnamed).

Who said it was :to give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own? It has been said be to caused by Abaddon's rebellion.

Sha Noran said:

An interesting thought to ponder that this brought up in my head: Could this be why Glint hides in this area? Because she is trying to avoid drawing the attention of the true gods? Perhaps the conflict between Glint's Forgotten armies and Abaddon's Margonites (and many others) became so out of control that it led the gods to forsake Glint and try to wipe the whole slate clean, at which point she hid herself in a pocket dimension... and she being a prophet has a very interesting correlation to knowing secrets, doesn't it...

Yes, that is why the god's attention to the gods is greatest in the world in two spots which is linked to her lair....

[Corpsesarefun]

No my post is NOT speculate is was logic, how would daming the river's entrance to the sea stop the water supply to elona (vabbi specificall)?

you need a dam further south in order for your map to fit any semblance of lore.

[ShadowedSin]

ArlanKels said:

Technically any dam will be arid, or dry looking on the side where none or almost none of the water is present.
They always have a dry, rocky and rather..um..dry...look. Every dam I've ever seen of any worthwhile size, at least.

Of course that only counts for when the dam is actually retaining most if not all of the water. When it's a dam that barely controls the river then it doesn't really have a significant impact on the arid/dryness of the non-dammed side.


I believe the only comments about the Crystal Desert so far is that some of it has become bountiful/grown in/you know what I mean.

If they have quotes on the desert then find them and quote them.

[Konig Des Todes]

Corpsesarefun said:

No my post is NOT speculate is was logic, how would daming the river's entrance to the sea stop the water supply to elona (vabbi specificall)?

you need a dam further south in order for your map to fit any semblance of lore.

Er... the OP meant that would be where the seen dam would be. There would be other dams in Elona. Also, the water supply was stopped to Kourna, not Vabbi. The Elon starts in Vabbi and flows south, and the dam was made to starve Kourna to make it easy to conquer.

ShadowedSin said:

If they have quotes on the desert then find them and quote them.

The only knowledge of the Crystal Desert we have is from the Movement at these three lines:

The Movement of the World said:

This undead armada has cut off all human contact with Cantha, and the dragon’s undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands...for now.

...

To ensure his dominance, Palawa dammed and diverted the river Elon, causing drought and famine amid the northern provinces of Elona and creating a green and growing area within the Crystal Desert.

...

They work with the Krytans and Ascalonians, and even maintain a presence in Elona, although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa's stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon's presence in the northern desert.

[draxynnic]

Briar said:

Sorry still trying to figure out how these forums work

Edit:

Can't get it to re-size into a respectable size. Just going to have to deal with the oversized image onslaught until GW2G rescues you

You could resize the original image you worked with yourself. It's perfectly readable as the resized version, so take your original, shrink it down to the size GW2G shrinks it to, and post that. Simple.

Konig Des Todes said:

Overall, I think the idea that the Crystal Desert floods is a silly one, seeing how we have NO support for this. And, as I said, it is near impossible that the Elon River has even near enough power and water to flood the Crystal Desert. Unless Joko had a ton of Ice Elementalists transfer large blocks of ice from the Shiverpeaks, I don't think the Crystal Desert flooded at all. And as I said before, the Desolation is considered a part of the Crystal Desert, so when the Movement speaks of the Crystal Desert becoming green, it probably means the Desolation.

In principle, I'm not sure I agree with you. Lakes can form pretty much regardless of the strength of the river feeding them, as long as the outflow and inflow reach an equilibrium. Whether that's likely to be the case here... I'd have to make a closer study of the maps than I have done so far.

Konig Des Todes said:

Who said it was :to give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own? It has been said be to caused by Abaddon's rebellion.

It was in the Prophecies Manuscripts.

The impression I've always had is that the sea got boiled dry in the fighting between Abaddon and the other gods, and that was just what was claimed in order to cover up what really happened (since 'what really happened' involved Abaddon).

[Thalador]

Draxynnic said:

The impression I've always had is that the sea got boiled dry in the fighting between Abaddon and the other gods, and that was just what was claimed in order to cover up what really happened (since 'what really happened' involved Abaddon).

You're right, but I always thought that it was the impact/energy of Abaddon's fall, that boiled the sea, and created the Desolation in the proximity (turning the Crystal Sea's shore into a desolate landscape we see today). (I'd have loved to play the battle in a BMP like expansion, of course, with SW:Battlefront game mechanics, so you could choose which side you want to fight for, and choose a profession with pre-set skill bar).

Konig Des Todes said:

Who says the dam is even in the desert area? We only see a arid-like area. Why not at the river at the north of the Giant's Basin? That is arid enough according to the GW1 map.

I would say that is a dam built by the residents of Ebonhawke somewhere in the Blazeridge. A dam, to get fresh water, and produce energy(?) (perhaps a brainy Asura, told them how to advance their technolgy :)).

[draxynnic]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

I would say that is a dam built by the residents of Ebonhawke somewhere in the Blazeridge. A dam, to get fresh water, and produce energy(?) (perhaps a brainy Asura, told them how to advance their technolgy :)).

Or they figured it out themselves. Are humans really so mentally deficient that every advance has to come from the Asura or the Charr if it's not granted as a gift from the gods?

Especially since we've seen watermills in Ascalon before. We're probably not looking at hydroelectricity, but they could well have found some way to use it if there is a suitable river near Ebonhawke.

[Corpsesarefun]

Actually konig it was said palawa joko damned the elon, CAUSING vabbi to crumble and then as they had to other choice kourna and istan became vassel nations.