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How can a Charr be a Guardian?


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#1 Arson

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:04 AM

Yes I know, you pick a race and profession at creation. And I also know there may very well be many explanations and I’ve allowed them to knock around in my head for a few days but they just don’t add up.


How can a Charr be a Guardian, for some reason I’m having a very hard time imagining a Charr as a Guardian character mainly because of the skills sets given to the profession. In that they all in someway relate to belief and faith, not just believe in one’s self but in the believe that there is something greater powering the world.

Spirit Weapons—The guardian can summon spirit weapons to fight at his side for a limited time. Spirit weapons cannot be attacked by enemies and can be commanded to inflict a powerful attack before disappearing. For example, Hammer of Wisdom can be summoned to fight alongside a guardian, then commanded to knock down an enemy and vanish.

Symbols—The guardian places symbols on the ground, where they inflict damage to enemies or deliver a benefit to allies. Symbols persist for a few seconds and then go away. For instance, Symbol of Faith is a hammer attack that leaves a transient symbol on the ground, giving allies the Vigor boon.

Wards—A ward is a marked area on the ground that stops enemies from passing through while allowing allies to move freely. For example, a staff-wielding guardian can create a Line of Warding in front of him that keeps enemies from reaching the allies behind him.

Aegis—Guardians are adept in the use of Aegis, a removable boon that blocks the next attack. Guardians have access to this boon through the virtue of Courage.

Spirit Weapons goes without saying but for instance:

Quote

Aegis: from Greek, is a large collar or cape worn in ancient times to display the protection provided by a high religious authority or the holder of a protective shield signifying the same, such as a bag-like garment that contained a shield. Sometimes the garment and the shield are merged, with a small version of the shield appearing on the garment. It originally was derived from the protective shield associated with a religious figure when related in myths and images. The wearing of the aegis and its contents show sponsorship, protection, or authority derived from yet a higher source or deity. The name has been extended to many other entities, and the concept of a protective shield is found in other mythologies, while its form varies across sources.

The concept of doing something "under someone's aegis" means doing something under the protection of a powerful, knowledgeable, or benevolent source. The word aegis is identified with protection by a strong force with its roots in Greek mythology and adopted by the Romans; there are parallels in Norse mythology and in Egyptian mythology as well. But over all it all means the samething; Reciving or acting under the edit of a higher power.

And so with the rest of  the terms used to describe a Guardian’s power in that they all translate to mean belief in a higher power and or channeling that power.

At this point the idea of a Charr guardian seems a little contradictory to me, how can a being from a race and culture that distains faith and belief suddenly become the wielder of those powers. Let me make this clear, the Charr DO NOT question the existence of gods or higher powers they simply believe that they do not need them and belief in such entities is perhaps one of the greatest weakness of the other races. That makes the possibility of a Charr guardian seem even less likely to me, short of being an outcast I don‘t see how it is possible.

This all leads to one of my biggest complains with GW lore; by stripping the Charr of the ability to believe in a higher power they have severely pigeonholed the race and the culture.

#2 Huginn

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:06 AM

Anet have said multiply times that the Guardian isn't connected to any faith...

#3 Arson

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:08 AM

Huginn said:

Anet have said multiply times that the Guardian isn't connected to any faith...

The terms and useage of the skill sets say otherwise.

#4 Duran

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:10 AM

No one said that charr aren't team players.  Also there were charr monks in gw1, albeit by other names.  And the guardian sounds like a very pragmatic caster.  The charr are all about pragmatism!

#5 On_Slaught

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:11 AM

Arson said:

The terms and useage of the skill sets say otherwise.

Say that all you want but the fact of the matter is they aren't tied to any religion. They protect people. Simple as that.

Also, I don't see how the skills imply that at all. Seems like a huge stretch.

#6 Archaes

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:14 AM

They are their own gods, each and everyone one. They deem those worthy of their protection. :p
But really, it sounds like you're over thinking this. Here would have been a better argument. The charr don't have a concept of honor.

Pyre Fierceshot: "Honor be damned, only a fool throws away his best weapons." (Or something to that effect).

Honor is an important aspect to the concept of the guardian. So unless the charr HAVE changed over the past 250 years, in terms of personal ethnics and values. Yeah, then I could where that'd be an issue lore wise.

#7 Krazzar

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:16 AM

It's simply a different use of magic. Are you saying Charr should be able to conjure fire from nothing, yet can't create a magical hammer?

#8 Arson

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:18 AM

On_Slaught said:

Say that all you want but the fact of the matter is they aren't tied to any religion. They protect people. Simple as that.

Also, I don't see how the skills imply that at all. Seems like a huge stretch.

Look up the terms, they are all connected with faith in someway.

If they were just to "protect people"

Why can't "symbol" just be "sign"

The terms have very heavy religious meanings attached to them and I'm not even going to mention SPIRIT weapon, that alone carries very heavy, very definite ideas with it.

#9 Shriketalon

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:18 AM

Faith in the gods is weakness.  Faith in an eternal equation is idiocy.  Faith in an old fool's philosophies is naivety.  Faith in uncaring spirits is lunacy.  There is only one thing you can have faith in, and that is the sword in your hand, the companions at your side, and the iron will to overcome all that stands before you.

Do not believe a higher power will save you, believe that your friend's shield will ward off the arrow that seeks your life.  Do not believe that everything will balance out somehow, believe that the might of your ally will emblazon your efforts with zealous wrath.  Do not believe that peace will overcome all obstacles, believe that the rage of your bound brothers will cleave all that stands before us.  Do not believe that the world cares for our plight, believe that we will change the world with our own hands.

Have faith in your Guardian, and he will have faith in you.

#10 Krazzar

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:20 AM

Arson said:

Look up the terms, they are all connected with faith in someway.

If they were just to "protect people"

Why can't "symbol" just be "sign"

The terms have very heavy religious meanings attached to them and I'm not even going to mention SPIRIT weapon, that alone carried very heavy, very definite ideas with it.

Those terms are outside the lore of Guild Wars and to boot you are looking up the English definition. Different cultures and languages will hold different definitions of the "same" word, but the clincher is this is a different culture operating in a different world with a different history.

#11 Huginn

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:22 AM

Arson said:

Look up the terms, they are all connected with faith in someway.

If they were just to "protect people"

Why can't "symbol" just be "sign"

The terms have very heavy religious meanings attached to them and I'm not even going to mention SPIRIT weapon, that alone carried very heavy, very definite ideas with it.

Oh shit you're right, norn are the most religious race in gw and they follow the spirits of the wild!

#12 vani

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:23 AM

Arson said:

The terms and useage of the skill sets say otherwise.

So becuase you got given your reason/answer, your just gunna turn round an say "Oh but thats not what it means"!?

Well in this game it does,
America and britain have different meanings for different words.
Football a perfect example, suasages, chips.

In devil may cry dante is said to be a demon, but if anything he acts the complete opposite.

My advice would be to accept the answer and move on.

#13 Arson

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:24 AM

Krazzar said:

It's simply a different use of magic. Are you saying Charr should be able to conjure fire from nothing, yet can't create a magical hammer?

This is getting to my point, by allowing the Charr to have no belief whatsoever in anything other then tech and each other they have very defiantly pigeonholed the entire race and culture to react in only one way to stimuli. Even to summon a fireball would in someway have trust in some form of power that exist outside of the realm of simple physical or mental ability.

Huginn said:

Oh shit you're right, norn are the most religious race in gw and they follow the spirits of the wild!

Yes I would say that the Norn are a highly religous race but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

And beside, I think the humans are the most religous of the lot.

Edited by draxynnic, 02 February 2011 - 07:57 AM.
Doublepost


#14 Huginn

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:29 AM

Arson said:

Yes I would say that the Norn are a highly religous race but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

And beside, I think the humans are the most religous of the lot.

Sarcasm, meaning that norn are one of the least religious races in gw...

#15 Tregarde

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:30 AM

I think Shriketalon just answered how a Charr can be a Guardian, from a Charr's perspective perfectly. I really can't think of anything more that needs to be said.

#16 angelsarc

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:31 AM

Arson said:

This is getting to my point, by allowing the Charr to have no belief whatsoever in anything other then tech and each other they have very defiantly pigeonholed the entire race and culture to react in only one way to stimuli. Even to summon a fireball would in someway have trust in some form of power that exist outside of the realm of simple physical or mental ability.

This is your fundamental mistake.  Magic does not exist in OUR world, but it exists in Tyria.  It is simply another ability that some are able to use.  The charr do not need to believe in it; they know it exists.  It's tangible.  It's been used against them.  They have used it.  Just as swords and guns are wielded as weapons, magic can be used against their enemies.  No faith required.

#17 Aethlin

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:32 AM

Archaes8 said:

Here would have been a better argument. The charr don't have a concept of honor.

Pyre Fierceshot: "Honor be damned, only a fool throws away his best weapons." (Or something to that effect).

Honor is an important aspect to the concept of the guardian. So unless the charr HAVE changed over the past 250 years, in terms of personal ethnics and values. Yeah, then I could where that'd be an issue lore wise.

Which is really not the case, Charr have honor, it's just that not all Charr put the same value to the concept. What you're doing here is basically saying that every Charr is the same, and values the same things. While from many lore sources we have seen that this is NOT the case at all.

take the strife between the different legions Iron, Blood and Ash against Flame, this is because they have different beliefs. And take the enormous differences on a smaller scale, that of individual Charr. Compare Pyre to Rytlock, or even Ember and Almorra, each of them is so different. To me it's almost as if you are trying to push every single Charr into the same (mostly Flame legion inspired IMO) box.

This is just my take on the matter, but it might help you to find a way to reconcile your views with the existence of Charr Guardians.

I also love the way Shriketalon said it. He really nails the point ^^

Edited by Aethlin, 02 February 2011 - 06:37 AM.


#18 Minionman

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:33 AM

Arson said:

Look up the terms, they are all connected with faith in someway.

If they were just to "protect people"

Why can't "symbol" just be "sign"

The terms have very heavy religious meanings attached to them and I'm not even going to mention SPIRIT weapon, that alone carries very heavy, very definite ideas with it.

Since when did the word "symbol" because highly associated with religion?  (I'm asking this mostly sarcastically, Out of all the times I see it, it's never used religiously anymore than most such words, or "sign' for that matter.)


As for the explanation, I'd say that an extension of the "charr have monks" explanation works just fine.  Although magic originally came from the gods, it has been released directly, and as a result anyone can use the powers of magic whether they directly worship the god in question or not.  Charr are quite oriented around group combat, therefore would have a use for a person with guardian type skills  (Not necessarily a "guardian' as such, since the professions are gameplay abstractions to a good extent.), and as a result the profession is sensible for them.


If anything, I'd find Norn guardians to make the least sense, since Norn are all about single combat and proving themselves with little or no outside help.  (Although this doesn't prevent me from planning to make one if i get the game.  :)  )

#19 Huginn

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:37 AM

Minionman said:

If anything, I'd find Norn guardians to make the least sense, since Norn are all about single combat and proving themselves with little or no outside help.  (Although this doesn't prevent me from planning to make one if i get the game.  :)  )


*cough* Egil*cough*

;)

#20 riplox

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:37 AM

You need to remember, regardless of the sentient race, they were all granted the gift of magic from Abbadon, then most of the magic power was sealed away by the other 5 gods via the Bloodstones. However, the magic could not be completely sealed and some power remains; thus, the sentient races can use magic. It has nothing to do with belief in the human gods or whatever. One of the Bloodstones seals preservation magic, which is curative and protective magic, and the others are aggression, destruction, and denial.

Edited by riplox, 02 February 2011 - 07:08 AM.


#21 Arson

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:37 AM

Krazzar said:

Those terms are outside the lore of Guild Wars and to boot you are looking up the English definition. Different cultures and languages will hold different definitions of the "same" word, but the clincher is this is a different culture operating in a different world with a different history.

I understand what you're saying and I've considered this Krazzar but for some reason if we were talking about a human guardian we wouldn't have this problem.

The problem is more to the point of the charr and not in the terms or the guardian profession itself. They've created the charr to act in a certain way and in acting that way they're cut the race and the culture off from a very large chunk of the gaming world reality.

I can protect you because I read a really good self-help book and I understand that the power comes from inside me so excuse me as I summon spirit weapons and smite things.

#22 Guideborn

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:45 AM

Arson said:

Look up the terms.


Why should we look them up? Who cares what Google or Wikipedia says? Maybe ArenaNet has a different interpretation for the words for the Guild Wars universe. I'd say you are looking way too far into this, but apparently that's the standard on these forums.

#23 Krazzar

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:45 AM

Arson said:

I understand what you're saying and I've considered this Krazzar but for some reason if we were talking about a human guardian we wouldn't have this problem.

The problem is more to the point of the charr and not in the terms or the guardian profession itself. They've created the charr to act in a certain way and in acting that way they're cut the race and the culture off from a very large chunk of the gaming world reality.

I can protect you because I read a really good self-help book and I understand that the power comes from inside me so excuse me as I summon spirit weapons and smite things.

Yes, we would. It's a different culture in a different world. As said already magic is a part of the world, it is a plain fact. I would point you to our own histories, especially that of Christians. Do you think everyone was religious pre-enlightenment simply because they were stupid or it was popular? No, there was no other way to think about the world than through religion. The concept of secular didn't even exist before the enlightenment because there was no alternate way to think.

In the same way there is no alternate way to think about the world of Guild Wars without magic.

Edited by Krazzar, 02 February 2011 - 06:48 AM.


#24 Shriketalon

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:46 AM

Arson said:

Even to summon a fireball would in someway have trust in some form of power that exist outside of the realm of simple physical or mental ability.

That's like saying that firing a gun requires having faith in the explosive properties of gunpowder to propel the bullet.

Tyrian Magic is codified and reliable.  The Bloodstones of Destruction, Aggression, Denial, and Preservation allow magic-wielding individuals to channel energy in ways relevant to their particular stone.  An Elementalist can summon the forces of destruction via elemental might to burn, bash, boil, and break everything in their path.  A Necromancer can call the power of aggression to incite the blood, enrage the bone, drive mad the soul.  A Mesmer can manipulate Denial to defeat their opponent's spells, decimate their enemy's energies, and dance their way into the minds of their foes to string them up like puppets.  And Guardians can call upon Preservation to protect, defend, and shield their companions.

This is not an act of faith.  An elementalist does not pray to the earth, she calls it and it answers.  A necromancer does not worship the darkness of the human heart, he embraces it and unleashes its fury.  A mesmer does not venerate chaos, she just finds it so damn fun that she might as well inflict it upon some foolish sods, because that's hilarious.  And a guardian is not gaining his power through devotion, he is wielding a mystical source like any other.

"Honor be damned, only a fool throws away his best weapons."

Magic is one hell of a weapon.  And only a fool would deny the power of Preservation.

#25 Arson

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:48 AM

Shriketalon said:

Faith in the gods is weakness.  Faith in an eternal equation is idiocy.  Faith in an old fool's philosophies is naivety.  Faith in uncaring spirits is lunacy.  There is only one thing you can have faith in, and that is the sword in your hand, the companions at your side, and the iron will to overcome all that stands before you.

Do not believe a higher power will save you, believe that your friend's shield will ward off the arrow that seeks your life.  Do not believe that everything will balance out somehow, believe that the might of your ally will emblazon your efforts with zealous wrath.  Do not believe that peace will overcome all obstacles, believe that the rage of your bound brothers will cleave all that stands before us.  Do not believe that the world cares for our plight, believe that we will change the world with our own hands.

Have faith in your Guardian, and he will have faith in you.

Human warrior: Hold on,wait a min. Are you telling me to drop my beliefs in my gods and follow you. That my faith is my weakness and that you are more powerful than my gods. Yeah, I think I'll sit this one out.

Might sound good to a pack of charr but in mixed company, not so much.

#26 tawainai daemon

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:51 AM

Arson said:

Human warrior: Hold on,wait a min. Are you telling me to drop my beliefs in my gods and follow you. That my faith is my weakness and that you are more powerful than my gods. Yeah, I think I'll sit this one out.

Might sound good to a pack of charr but in mixed company, not so much.

People do not need to have the same spiritual believes to work together.

#27 Jimmeh1993

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:53 AM

If a Charr started using the racial skill "Prayer to Kormir" as a Guardian skill..then I'd think your arguement made sense. However, using magic to build barriers and shields isn't any different from conjuring a fireball..other than which Bloodstone is being used. Even the Charr believe in the Mists, and so spiritual powers aren't "faith" for them. Believe in a higher deity that dserves your worship and all is what they reject. They refuse to believe that any higher power rules over them.

The Guardian is not religious. If it was, it'd be called the Cleric or Priest. It would have Prayers instead of Virtues, Holy weapons instead of spirit weapons, divine symbols instead of magical ones, etc. You are just too limited in your thinking due to years of this archetype being pigeonholded (using your term) into a religious follower of divine power.

#28 deadatzero

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 06:53 AM

Quote

Is there a story behind the Guardian on the lore end of things? Do you have any thoughts on how it came to be?

Jeff Grubb: With the turmoil in Elona and the spread of the Order of Whispers into other lands, more Paragon teaching showed elsewhere in Tyria. These teachings melded with other traditions, and over time, the Guardians and their abilities can be found throughout the world and among all the races. They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity's defensive nature and the Charr's desire to rule the battlefield.

from
http://massively.joy...-massivelys-in/

#29 Tokarn

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:22 AM

On_Slaught said:

Say that all you want but the fact of the matter is they aren't tied to any religion. They protect people. Simple as that.

Also, I don't see how the skills imply that at all. Seems like a huge stretch.

This is true, and it's been 250 years. There have been Charr Shamans/Monks before. If the profession requires some amount of faith in magic or something else, I think a charr can mange that.

#30 E.Danika

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 07:32 AM

The thing is, even if we know that Abaddon gave magic to the world, the Charr don't necessarily have to.

A lot of people in our world believe their Gods created the Earth, heavens, etc, etc. In fact, most people believed in their Gods having a direct involvement in the world long before Science evolved into what it was.

As someone mentioned previously, Magic in the world of GW is just there. The Charr, as far as we know, have not experienced a world without it. They could put what creates it and what doesn't down to what they like.

As for the names of skills, those are what are given to players to easily distinguish a skill from another. Those are not necessarily what the people of GW would even call them. I'd be very surprised if they did, in fact, considering how racially diverse it is.