[Duran]

I've noticed that many of the places that are mysteriously described as being a source of great power are usually places that are close to an elder dragon. ex: central transfer chamber, etc, etc. Well, if Zhaitan is from Orr, I think its possible that he was there before the 6 gods even were. If the world was created with elder dragons sewn into the seams, and those seams were areas with high magical power spikes, maybe the 6 gods were simply individuals that managed to harness that power before anyone else? If thats the case, then all the power of the gods comes from the dragons and if all our character's divine or magical power is handed down through the gods, then our character's are all using this derived draconic power, too. It seems like too much dragon power corrupts, but maybe trace amounts are the source of our characters' magical abilities.

Sorry if that was a little convoluted, just an idea I had. Does this theory make sense / what could we add to it / does anything outright disprove it?

tldr; Dragons > Gods > Player Characters

[captainnl]

The dragon's power isn't the source of our magic, that are the bloodstones.

The cause of these places with a source of great power on which Orr for example was build are the dragons, because they were sleeping close to it.
(Which was mentioned by ANET)

[Duran]

http://guildwars.wik...wiki/Bloodstone

***Slight Spoilers*** (according to the guildwiki)

Guild wiki says that the gods put their magic to the races of the world until it was abused and then they gathered it all back up and sealed it in the blood stone which they then split into pieces and hid them in the volcano in Abaddon's Mouth in the Ring of Fire Islands. (then it errupted and spewed the stone fragments back into Tyria conveniently after the gods had left the mortal world).

***End Slight Spoilers***

So what I'm saying is, where did the power that the gods were wielding come from? I think it could have come from the Elder Dragons. clarification: Not that the Elder Dragons had a say in the matter. I'm treating the Elder Dragons as magical/supernatural forces of nature. The gods could have siphoned or harnessed the power of the sleeping Elder Dragons.

Edited by Duran, 29 September 2009 - 06:31 PM.
clarification

[Mordakai]

It's confirmed that Orr was built where it was because there was power there. The power turned out to be Zhaitan.

" The City of the Gods was built on top of a dragon, the central transfer chamber that the [Asura] used in Eye of the North was built on top of a dragon...they're just literally magical reactors to a great degree. "

http://www.zam.com/s...tml?story=19860

We have "Facets of Power" that are said to reflect the Dragons power: http://www.killtenra...rs-2-interview/

Kill Ten Rats: "Kerrsh’s quest line in Eye of the North (ending with the quest The Path to Revelations) is a hotly debated topic on the lore forums. Why are the facets of the human gods depicted as dragons? Can the gods’ cryptic message be explained in terms of Guild Wars 2?

Jeff Grubb: "Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.

It is possible that the cryptic message refers to the Dragons – “a land unwaking” could be the risen kingdom of Orr, and answers to the origin of the dragons do lie there."

This is what Jeff is referring to: http://wiki.guildwar..._to_Revelations

"An offering to those who seek"
"Beyond the mists beyond the dreams"
"On distant shores of a land unwaking"
"Answers there lie in waiting"



I believe the god harnessed the Dragon's power and shaped them into the 4 schools magic:

"Four of which represented the four schools of magic (each represents aggression, destruction, preservation, and denial), and the final piece, the Keystone, was needed to reassemble the Bloodstone."

Jeff Grubb: "Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed."

Edited by Mordakai, 29 September 2009 - 08:38 PM.
clarification

[captainnl]

Personally I don't believe there is a connection between the dragons and the bloodstones. You could make everything a connection to the dragons without any evidence imo.

Your thoughts are understandable, but I don't think the dragons are the source of magic itself from which a slight piece was later stored in the bloodstones by the gods.

[Mordakai]

captainnl said:

Personally I don't believe there is a connection between the dragons and the bloodstones. You could make everything a connection to the dragons without any evidence imo.

Your thoughts are understandable, but I don't think the dragons are the source of magic itself from which a slight piece was later stored in the bloodstones by the gods.

There is evidence the gods power came from the dragons: We have the Facets, which are represented by shapes of dragons, and this quote from Jeff Grubb:

"Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed."

So, there is a connection to the Bloodstones (which are given by the gods to the races of Tyria) and the Dragons (from which the gods harnessed their power).

I just believe it is a indirect connection, as opposed to direct. I don't think Zhaitan represents Destruction, or Jormag represents Denial, for example. One problem is we run out of Stones. Second problem: which Dragon represents Preservation?

But I do believe Dwayna harnessed the Dragon's power, and made it into the Preservation school of magic.

[captainnl]

I guess I'll have to agree to that, altough like you I think it is indirect.
Maybe the gods got their powers from the Dragons but that doesn't make a direct connection between the dragons and the Stones.

We also don't know if the Elder Dragons were the founders or just the first wielders of magic/power. Magic might have always existed in a form the humanoid races couldn't wield it and only the Elder dragons could. Which would mean the Stones were a sort of emplifier to change this raw magic/power into a form the humanoid races could wield it.

[Mordakai]

captainnl said:

I guess I'll have to agree to that, altough like you I think it is indirect.
Maybe the gods got their powers from the Dragons but that doesn't make a direct connection between the dragons and the Stones.

We also don't know if the Elder Dragons were the founders or just the first wielders of magic/power. Magic might have always existed in a form the humanoid races couldn't wield it and only the Elder dragons could. Which would mean the Stones were a sort of emplifier to change this raw magic/power into a form the humanoid races could wield it.

Well, it's been stated many times "The Dragons have always been here."

Now, you can take that the way I do (literally), and assume the Dragons are as old as the Universe. The existed first, and Tyria was created around them...

Or, you could take it to mean they have only existed as long as sentient life existed (ie, the Dragons have existed for as long as we know).

Depending on what view you take: The Dragons are the source of all magic, or they were just the first to harness it.

[ShadowedSin]

captainnl said:

I guess I'll have to agree to that, altough like you I think it is indirect.
Maybe the gods got their powers from the Dragons but that doesn't make a direct connection between the dragons and the Stones.

We also don't know if the Elder Dragons were the founders or just the first wielders of magic/power. Magic might have always existed in a form the humanoid races couldn't wield it and only the Elder dragons could. Which would mean the Stones were a sort of emplifier to change this raw magic/power into a form the humanoid races could wield it.

Magic itself could also merely be using the power of the mists. The dragons the themselves are power elemental forces and exude power just by being.

[captainnl]

ShadowedSin said:

Magic itself could also merely be using the power of the mists. The dragons the themselves are power elemental forces and exude power just by being.

Didn't take the mists in consideration yet.
The Gods might have used the power of the mist to create the Stones which in turn changed the raw magic/power to a form usable to humanoids.

[Konig Des Todes]

ShadowedSin said:

Magic itself could also merely be using the power of the mists. The dragons the themselves are power elemental forces and exude power just by being.

I think it is either this, or the concept of psi powers. In my belief, which would actually coincide with reality as well, the idea of magic and psi powers (such as telekinesis and telepathy) are more or less the same thing, and the ability to use such would be a slight mutation in one's mind (a more modern day idea would be X-Men), where the change in one's mind allows that person to control external energy, not just internal - that is, external energy is energy that exists outside the body. In Guild Wars' terms, those people would be the Chosen. The "source" of magic such as the Bloodstones, gods, reflective surfaces (so it seems at least, such as water and crystals), or the Elder Dragons are just beings or objects which contain mass amounts of energy.

The beings which contain mass amounts of energy (the gods and Elder Dragons) would have more energy to use for spells, thus, if they can control the external energy, would be able to cast much stronger magic. Objects which contain mass amounts of energy (bloodstones, Cauldron of Cataclysm, Forbidden Scrolls, Sohothin, Scepter of Orr, etc. etc.) would just need to be "tapped" in order for the energy to be used - thus an inexperienced and weak mancer (choose whatever term you want, wizard, mage, etc.) would be multiple times stronger by tapping such an object.

In short, there is no "real" source of magic aside from the energy which exists in the universe, and energy cannot be created or destroyed - just changed - so there is an endless "source" of magic. It just depends on the users to determine how much is used.

The Bloodstones, I believe, work not as a container of magic, but an absorber of magic. That is, because of the bloodstones' existence, magic that people would use, cannot be used, because before they use it, it gets partially absorbed by the bloodstone (which is then leaked into the surrounding area).

Of course, this is just a hypothesis, and a scientific attempt to explain magic and how it is used (this is actually a portion of the second theory of the "magic is still limited to physics" statement from GWG).

[Duran]

captainnl said:

The Gods might have used the power of the mist to create the Stones which in turn changed the raw magic/power to a form usable to humanoids.

It seems like kind of the opposite. While the stones are now a source of magic they are described here as:

"When the Gods of Tyria created the world of Tyria, they presented the races of Tyria with the gift of magic. This gift was misused by the races of Tyria, and eventually King Doric made a plea to the Gods in the city of Arah that they intervene.
The Gods gathered all the magic from all the races into one tall stone and smashed it into five parts."

It goes on to say that the king's blood was used to seal the stones so that his dynasty would be able to protect the stones.

This is assuming that the people that wrote the article on the wiki are correct/accurate (which they usually are).

So the races were originally created with the ability to use magic. (except the charr... who were around before the human gods... i think... that might be a whole new thread in and of itself)

Konig Des Todes said:

Of course, this is just a hypothesis, and a scientific attempt to explain magic and how it is used (this is actually a portion of the second theory of the "magic is still limited to physics" statement from GWG).

Very well put, Konig. Also, very interesting!

Edited by Duran, 29 September 2009 - 11:17 PM.
to avoid double posting

[Mordakai]

Duran said:

It seems like kind of the opposite. While the stones are now a source of magic they are described here as:

"When the Gods of Tyria created the world of Tyria, they presented the races of Tyria with the gift of magic. This gift was misused by the races of Tyria, and eventually King Doric made a plea to the Gods in the city of Arah that they intervene.
The Gods gathered all the magic from all the races into one tall stone and smashed it into five parts."

It goes on to say that the king's blood was used to seal the stones so that his dynasty would be able to protect the stones.

This is assuming that the people that wrote the article on the wiki are correct/accurate (which they usually are).

It's from the Guild Wars Manuscripts which was in Prophecy game. Now, keep in mind, this info could change. I believe this was written from the human point of view, and other races have their own history of how magic was introduced...

Duran said:

So the races were originally created with the ability to use magic. (except the charr... who were around before the human gods... i think... that might be a whole new thread in and of itself)

Which brings us to Ecology of the Charr. http://www.guildwars...hives-t326.html

"Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history. The humans worshiped and revered these gods, and in return were given magic the likes of which the Charr had never before. This upstart race spread like a plague across the continent, and the Charr soon faced the true challenge to their dominance–the threat of humanity."

This contradicts the Manuscripts. It's because of this "magic inequality" that causes the Flame Legion to find the Titans, and discover their own magic and the Cauldron of Cataclysm.

[pumpkin pie]

Duran said:

tldr; Dragons > Gods > Player Characters

^^ that is actually wrong, Players Characters > Gods > Dragons

you can't compare players character in lore because we will always win, no matter what.

more like this: Dragons > Gods > NPCs

[Mordakai]

pumpkin pie said:

more like this: Dragons > Gods > NPCs

Unless your NPC becomes a god...

(Looking at you, Kormir!) :devil:

[pumpkin pie]

GRRRR. Grawls @ Komir!

[Konig Des Todes]

Mordakai said:

Which brings us to Ecology of the Charr. http://www.guildwars...hives-t326.html

"Then, the humans came, an infestation caused by beings called gods that had been enemies to the Charr since the beginnings of history. The humans worshiped and revered these gods, and in return were given magic the likes of which the Charr had never before. This upstart race spread like a plague across the continent, and the Charr soon faced the true challenge to their dominance–the threat of humanity."

This contradicts the Manuscripts. It's because of this "magic inequality" that causes the Flame Legion to find the Titans, and discover their own magic and the Cauldron of Cataclysm.

I'd like to point out two things:

• "magic the likes of which the Charr had never before." - This implies the Charr had magic before the gods gave it, implying that there was a way to use magic prior to Abaddon's works.
  
• It is possible the Charr didn't know how to use the magic, but was still able to. It is also possible they did, but they covered it up as propaganda.

[draxynnic]

pumpkin pie said:

GRRRR. Grawls @ Komir!

...what are you doing with those grawls, exactly? Pulling a Vael? Chucking them into a catapult basket and flinging them? :p

[Shru]

Mordakai said:

One problem is we run out of Stones.

4 bloodstones+1 keystones=5 dragons?
Or, you could observe that on all the bloodstones, and symbols related to them, are hexagonal patterns, which could represent 6 dragons (I know, and I'll get to that in a second), 6 gods, 6 facets of divided power. And although the bloodstone may have 4 named divisions itself, we'll ignore that for insanity's sake.

Mordakai said:

Second problem: which Dragon represents Preservation?

If we go by the second of my previous conjectures, it's obviously Glint, the caretaker of Tyria. :D

/end bs speculation

[Konig Des Todes]

draxynnic said:

...what are you doing with those grawls, exactly? Pulling a Vael? Chucking them into a catapult basket and flinging them? :p

Thank you for the humorous image.

Shru said:

4 bloodstones+1 keystones=5 dragons?

The Keystone doesn't hold a kind of magic. It''s just there to prevent connecting the bloodstones.

And since Shru's post led me backwards to a post I skipped before.

Mordakai said:

There is evidence the gods power came from the dragons: We have the Facets, which are represented by shapes of dragons, and this quote from Jeff Grubb:

"Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed."

So, there is a connection to the Bloodstones (which are given by the gods to the races of Tyria) and the Dragons (from which the gods harnessed their power).

I think that what Jeff said shouldn't be taken at face value. We don't know if, in lore, the facets looked different, or if Glint's facets were used for simplicity's sake. For all we know, the gods harnessed their power from Glint, or it could have been from a sixth, now dead, Elder Dragon. Or some of the Giganticus Lupicus could have in fact been draconic like some (such as myself) believe, and they have been the source of the gods' power. Or it could just be that, while the gods lived in Arah, they absorbed Zhaitan's (and only Zhaitan's) magic and was able to resist any twisting.

We don't know enough to say certainties.

Mordakai said:

I just believe it is a indirect connection, as opposed to direct. I don't think Zhaitan represents Destruction, or Jormag represents Denial, for example. One problem is we run out of Stones. Second problem: which Dragon represents Preservation?

But I do believe Dwayna harnessed the Dragon's power, and made it into the Preservation school of magic.

Well, if there is a connection - which to be honest, I doubt - it would be that magic was gained via the dragons and then the gods shaped it into their own will. The Dragon's magic is simply a kind of corruption - which can be seen as a fifth school of magic - while the bloodstones are not like this at all.

Mordakai said:

Well, it's been stated many times "The Dragons have always been here."

Now, you can take that the way I do (literally), and assume the Dragons are as old as the Universe. The existed first, and Tyria was created around them...

Or, you could take it to mean they have only existed as long as sentient life existed (ie, the Dragons have existed for as long as we know).

Depending on what view you take: The Dragons are the source of all magic, or they were just the first to harness it.

There is a third way to take it. The Dragons have always been here... in their lifetime. They were born in Tyria, before history was recorded *before the death of the Giganticus Lupicus*, and still live. Doesn't mean they must have been here since the creation of life, nor does it mean they are the source of magic. If my opinion of magic is wrong, then it is the Mists which is the origin of magic, seeing how the Mists is the origin of all things, and that creatures which reside in the Rift, which is at the center of the Mists, seems to be more magically adapt than those on Tyria. How could creatures further away from the "source of magic" aka Elder Dragons be able to use magic better? (Source for the non-Tyrian creatures being more magically adept is that those in the Rift/Realms of the Gods are always far more stronger than those on Tyria)

But I still hold my opinions on magic and how one uses it. That is, magic is simply the manipulation of energy outside the body, and how one uses it is via what many would call a mutation in the brain and mind, which only appears in those called the Chosen (explanation for magic given to all the races was that Abaddon didn't do anything to the magic, but instead did something to cause a wide-spread mutation, which was reverted on most by the gods, then the bloodstones made to limit magic usage of those extremely powerful via absorbing the energy before it being cast).

[Joiry]

Konig Des Todes said:

I'd like to point out two things:

• "magic the likes of which the Charr had never before." - This implies the Charr had magic before the gods gave it, implying that there was a way to use magic prior to Abaddon's works.

Doesn't imply that necessarily. Just says that magic had not been seen before by them. The phrase could equally apply to Charr having "minor" magic and the newer magic was way more powerful, or they had no magic at all.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

(Source for the non-Tyrian creatures being more magically adept is that those in the Rift/Realms of the Gods are always far more stronger than those on Tyria)

Wouldn't that lend itself far too much to game mechanics?

Konig Des Todes said:

But I still hold my opinions on magic and how one uses it. That is, magic is simply the manipulation of energy outside the body, and how one uses it is via what many would call a mutation in the brain and mind, which only appears in those called the Chosen (explanation for magic given to all the races was that Abaddon didn't do anything to the magic, but instead did something to cause a wide-spread mutation, which was reverted on most by the gods, then the bloodstones made to limit magic usage of those extremely powerful via absorbing the energy before it being cast).

...Am I understanding this correctly? What gives you the idea that only the Chosen are capable of using magic? We see plenty of other races and creatures using magic, would you discount all of that?

[Konig Des Todes]

Joiry said:

Doesn't imply that necessarily. Just says that magic had not been seen before by them. The phrase could equally apply to Charr having "minor" magic and the newer magic was way more powerful, or they had no magic at all.

If the phrase meant that the Charr had never seen magic before it would have been "magic the likes of the Charr had never seen before". The lack of seen makes it mean that the Charr have had magic, and used it, but not at such as scale the humans did. If the Charr never had magic, but have seen it, then the phrase should be "and in return were given magic, the likes of which the Charr had never before".

Either it is a grammar mistake, or the Charr had magic before, but weaker magic than the humans (or on a smaller scale of numbers).

Gmr Leon said:

Wouldn't that lend itself far too much to game mechanics?

The strength is in both lore and game mechanics though, I recall mentions of the creatures in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe being worse than those of Tyrian origin.

Gmr Leon said:

...Am I understanding this correctly? What gives you the idea that only the Chosen are capable of using magic? We see plenty of other races and creatures using magic, would you discount all of that?

Dialogue and lore makes the Chosen seem like a small percentage of the people, yet we see in the Divinity's Reach that those who are Chosen are more common than what one would believe - three villages (more or less), and 12 people out of... 30 total (shown, that is)?

The common villagers are all without magic, all they can use is a Healing Signet. Signets, by common lore (as GW lore gives nothing on signets) are magical symbols and objects such as rings which could be used by any sapient being - magical or not. The term "Chosen" is on par with both rarity in idea and commonality of reality that it matches other terms of common fantasy of those who have the ability of using magic, yet do not know how to.

The only GW reference to the Chosen are in accordance with the Flameseeker Prophecies or those chosen by the gods. All of the gods' chosen are magical. And I find it hard to believe the Eye of Janthir base the chosen idea off of some random people able to fulfill one single prophecy.

As for your "We see plenty of other races and creatures using magic" comment: Who says Chosen are only humans?

[draxynnic]

Konig Des Todes said:

Or it could just be that, while the gods lived in Arah, they absorbed Zhaitan's (and only Zhaitan's) magic and was able to resist any twisting.

Or maybe they were twisted, but only physically...

Konig Des Todes said:

Well, if there is a connection - which to be honest, I doubt - it would be that magic was gained via the dragons and then the gods shaped it into their own will. The Dragon's magic is simply a kind of corruption - which can be seen as a fifth school of magic - while the bloodstones are not like this at all.

Although this does present an alternate hypothesis as to what the true purpose of the keystone is - what if the original magic was pretty much directly from the dragons, but the keystone was soaking it up and filtering it into the four schools we know and rebroadcasting it through the other four bloodstones?

Konig Des Todes said:

The common villagers are all without magic, all they can use is a Healing Signet. Signets, by common lore (as GW lore gives nothing on signets) are magical symbols and objects such as rings which could be used by any sapient being - magical or not. The term "Chosen" is on par with both rarity in idea and commonality of reality that it matches other terms of common fantasy of those who have the ability of using magic, yet do not know how to.

Possibly more importantly, Healing Signet is a warrior skill, which is the one profession that doesn't (overtly) have some sort of supernatural ability.

Still, there are weaknesses in the argument that Chosen=magic capability theory. The biggest I can think of offhand is that the White Mantle are loaded with spellcasters and don't automatically assume player spellcasters are Chosen, yet they appear to be indiscriminately killing Chosen rather than giving them the option to convert. A better hypothesis may be that being Chosen is what allows two professions rather than being limited to one, but allowing Stone Summit and Charr to be Chosen kinda kills the theory that Chosen are relatives of King Doric.

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

Or it could just be that, while the gods lived in Arah, they absorbed Zhaitan's (and only Zhaitan's) magic and was able to resist any twisting.

Hmmm... Interesting idea, although, how would you explain the diversity between each god? I mean, they all control different domains (Grenth *for the first known time Dhuum*-> Death and Ice *however I doubt this domain was in the possession of Dhuum during his reign*, Balthazar-> Fire and War, etc.), so if they did absorb only Zhaitan's power (which is Undeath as far as we know) and became the gods we know, how did they achieve the state where they differ from each other? IF the Elder Dragons are elemental (from my viewpoint controlling different domains of power/magic) then all the "gods" would be "attuned" to Death.

Draxynnic said:

Or maybe they were twisted, but only physically...

Interesting idea as well. Looking at Abaddon's face I suppose this idea is right...

Draxynnic said:

Although this does present an alternate hypothesis as to what the true purpose of the keystone is - what if the original magic was pretty much directly from the dragons, but the keystone was soaking it up and filtering it into the four schools we know and rebroadcasting it through the other four bloodstones?

Very good Draxynnic! Perhaps the keystone purifies the corrupt power/magic/energy of the dragons, then it "sends" the "pure/clean" power/magic/energy to the other four bloodstones, so those can safely (more or less) distribute it amongst the mortals.

[Konig Des Todes]

draxynnic said:

Still, there are weaknesses in the argument that Chosen=magic capability theory. The biggest I can think of offhand is that the White Mantle are loaded with spellcasters and don't automatically assume player spellcasters are Chosen, yet they appear to be indiscriminately killing Chosen rather than giving them the option to convert. A better hypothesis may be that being Chosen is what allows two professions rather than being limited to one, but allowing Stone Summit and Charr to be Chosen kinda kills the theory that Chosen are relatives of King Doric.

I personally think the theory that all the Chosen are all relatives of King Doric is foolish, to be honest. Due to the high amount of chosen seen and the fact that the eye does not see us as chosen, I think that they do allow Chosen to join the mantle, however, if they do not do so willingly, they are viewed as enemies (even if they willingly come along for the eye testing). In other words, the white mantle recruit year round, the eye is used to find non-mantle chosen, to prevent the eye from seeing the viewers as chosen, the cleansing is needed.

This idea opens up the idea that the leaders of the White Mantle were not truly puppets of the Mursaat. It could also mean that the Mursaat were not all "kill kill kill all the chosen" but "kill the chosen who do not join us without being shown to have promise". The purpose of recruiting chosen who do not know their own promise while killing those willing to join when given the fact that they are chosen is for the paranoia (the word fits the Mursaat well I think!) that once the chosen who knew they were chosen before joining had what they wanted (enough knowledge as a caster) they then would want to leave or even betray the order - however, those who join not knowing their own ability would have even more faith in the Unseen Ones as it can be said to be a "gift from the gods" that the person "suddenly gains" power of magic.

In short, join the White Mantle willingly without knowing your abilities, you live. Join the White Mantle knowing your abilities, you die on a bloodstone. Only because of paranoia.

True, a bit too far fetched, but rather logical to be honest.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Hmmm... Interesting idea, although, how would you explain the diversity between each god? I mean, they all control different domains (Grenth *for the first known time Dhuum*-> Death and Ice *however I doubt this domain was in the possession of Dhuum during his reign*, Balthazar-> Fire and War, etc.), so if they did absorb only Zhaitan's power (which is Undeath as far as we know) and became the gods we know, how did they achieve the state where they differ from each other? IF the Elder Dragons are elemental (from my viewpoint controlling different domains of power/magic) then all the "gods" would be "attuned" to Death.

Power!=domain. That is all.

Though I suppose I should explain. If I am wrong in the essence of magic (that is, magic is just simply energy that exists outside the body and the only thing which makes it magic is the ability to manipulate external energy), then the gods could have taken the power from Zhaitan, not the undead domain (as for all we know, that occurred during the Cataclysm), but the raw magic of the dragon, somehow was able to resist mental twisting, and turned the raw magic to work in their own ways. One way was healing, another was animating the dead, another was creating and manipulating fire, etc. etc. This led to the six original gods' powers (which I believe the Great Dwarf, Arachnia, and Dhuum to have once been a part of, along with 3 others who are unknown) and then their supplanting led to the current gods.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

draxynnic said:

Or maybe they were twisted, but only physically...

Interesting idea as well. Looking at Abaddon's face I suppose this idea is right...

Abaddon had a known predecessor. It would be his predecessor who was twisted if twisted physically. However, thinking of the predecessor purpose, it is possible they were twisted. Dhuum was an unjust and sadistic god, and Arachnia (if the unknown predecessor of Abaddon) was evil as well.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

draxynnic said:

Although this does present an alternate hypothesis as to what the true purpose of the keystone is - what if the original magic was pretty much directly from the dragons, but the keystone was soaking it up and filtering it into the four schools we know and rebroadcasting it through the other four bloodstones?

Very good Draxynnic! Perhaps the keystone purifies the corrupt power/magic/energy of the dragons, then it "sends" the "pure/clean" power/magic/energy to the other four bloodstones, so those can safely (more or less) distribute it amongst the mortals.

Eh, I somehow doubt this to be the case, but that's most likely because of my own idea that magic doesn't have a real source and is just the manipulation of external energy. It is, however, possible.

But then this opens the question: If the dragons are the source of magic, what will happen when we kill them? We'll lose magical abilities. So if this is the case, then GW3 will have no magic.

Also, since this whole thread is about magic and not so much about the gods and the dragons, I'm changing the thread title.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

I personally think the theory that all the Chosen are all relatives of King Doric is foolish, to be honest. Due to the high amount of chosen seen and the fact that the eye does not see us as chosen, I think that they do allow Chosen to join the mantle, however, if they do not do so willingly, they are viewed as enemies (even if they willingly come along for the eye testing). In other words, the white mantle recruit year round, the eye is used to find non-mantle chosen, to prevent the eye from seeing the viewers as chosen, the cleansing is needed.

This idea opens up the idea that the leaders of the White Mantle were not truly puppets of the Mursaat. It could also mean that the Mursaat were not all "kill kill kill all the chosen" but "kill the chosen who do not join us without being shown to have promise". The purpose of recruiting chosen who do not know their own promise while killing those willing to join when given the fact that they are chosen is for the paranoia (the word fits the Mursaat well I think!) that once the chosen who knew they were chosen before joining had what they wanted (enough knowledge as a caster) they then would want to leave or even betray the order - however, those who join not knowing their own ability would have even more faith in the Unseen Ones as it can be said to be a "gift from the gods" that the person "suddenly gains" power of magic.

In short, join the White Mantle willingly without knowing your abilities, you live. Join the White Mantle knowing your abilities, you die on a bloodstone. Only because of paranoia.

True, a bit too far fetched, but rather logical to be honest.

While it does make sense, and it is in line with King Doric's descendants safeguarding the Bloodstones, it does seem a bit too far fetched. Albeit I doubt you had the safeguarding the Bloodstones part in mind. Really, I'm beginning to think the Eye of Janthir was nothing more than a facade by the White Mantle and the Mursaat to procure sacrifices, perhaps the Mantle in the lower ranks being taught that the sacrifices gave them power or something. Although I only say that due to Hablion's dialogue as he slaughters the Chosen, however, thinking about that a bit, one would think he would be of a higher rank in the Mantle, as if I recall properly he was amongst the witnesses of the Mursaat's slaughter of their men prior to Saul's abduction.

Konig Des Todes said:

Eh, I somehow doubt this to be the case, but that's most likely because of my own idea that magic doesn't have a real source and is just the manipulation of external energy. It is, however, possible.

But then this opens the question: If the dragons are the source of magic, what will happen when we kill them? We'll lose magical abilities. So if this is the case, then GW3 will have no magic.

Also, since this whole thread is about magic and not so much about the gods and the dragons, I'm changing the thread title.

Since I don't think I've precisely given my own views on the Elder Dragons and magic and the like, at least in the case of their being a "source" of magic, I disagree with the idea as well. Not only does it seem like an absurd idea, but I mean, honestly, aren't we stretching the tiny bit of information we have just a bit too far? So the Gods built Arah atop Zhaitan, the Asura built the Central Transfer Chamber near Primordus, and the Eye of the North is next door to Jormag, so what?

Humans built windmills to harness the wind to help turn grain into flour. We built watermills to harness the water to do the same. Even now, we use dams, permitting some water to flow through them for technical reasons, but also to flow downward, spinning a turbine, which I could go into detail over but won't, producing electricity.

This does not mean that they are the origin of magic, no more than the water going through our dams is the origin of electricity, or the wind blowing the sails on a windmill is the source of flour.

[Konig Des Todes]

Gmr Leon said:

While it does make sense, and it is in line with King Doric's descendants safeguarding the Bloodstones, it does seem a bit too far fetched. Albeit I doubt you had the safeguarding the Bloodstones part in mind. Really, I'm beginning to think the Eye of Janthir was nothing more than a facade by the White Mantle and the Mursaat to procure sacrifices, perhaps the Mantle in the lower ranks being taught that the sacrifices gave them power or something. Although I only say that due to Hablion's dialogue as he slaughters the Chosen, however, thinking about that a bit, one would think he would be of a higher rank in the Mantle, as if I recall properly he was amongst the witnesses of the Mursaat's slaughter of their men prior to Saul's abduction.

I still fail to see where it is mentioned that Doric's descendants are all Chosen or that the safeguarding descendants are even still alive (we see none at the Ring of Fire or Bloodstone Caves, unless you think Mursaat and undead are Doric's descendants).

And Hablion did see to be a high ranking member, maybe in the Inner Council, maybe not, because why would he be the focus of the White Mantle's wrath if he wasn't important in some manner? As for his manner of speaking, there are those near him, I doubt they know why exactly they are killing the Chosen.

Then again, does Dorian, the leader, even know why they were killing Chosen?

Gmr Leon said:

Since I don't think I've precisely given my own views on the Elder Dragons and magic and the like, at least in the case of their being a "source" of magic, I disagree with the idea as well. Not only does it seem like an absurd idea, but I mean, honestly, aren't we stretching the tiny bit of information we have just a bit too far? So the Gods built Arah atop Zhaitan, the Asura built the Central Transfer Chamber near Primordus, and the Eye of the North is next door to Jormag, so what?

Humans built windmills to harness the wind to help turn grain into flour. We built watermills to harness the water to do the same. Even now, we use dams, permitting some water to flow through them for technical reasons, but also to flow downward, spinning a turbine, which I could go into detail over but won't, producing electricity.

This does not mean that they are the origin of magic, no more than the water going through our dams is the origin of electricity, or the wind blowing the sails on a windmill is the source of flour.

I'll skip the bit where you are basically saying the Elder Dragons are living versions of the Bloodstones and go to the fact where you did give your opinion on the source of magic (to a degree) - here and here.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

I'll skip the bit where you are basically saying the Elder Dragons are living versions of the Bloodstones and go to the fact where you did give your opinion on the source of magic (to a degree) - here and here.

Er..I think you're mistakenly connecting the mentioning of a dam in my post to the example I posed in the threads you linked to, which isn't in any way intended. Also, those threads you linked to are the wrong ones, albeit there probably is some mentioning of my views on the Elder Dragons in them, whereas the more comprehensive view should be in the newer thread I've written involving them.

[Konig Des Todes]

Actually, the point of linking is only in saying you have stated you think magic is the manipulation (and thus originated from) the Mists. Me saying that you were basically saying the Elder Dragons are living versions of the Bloodstones because it seems that the Bloodstones act similar to dams - controlling the flow of magic. And you were saying that the dragons are not the origin of magic much like how a dam isn't the origin of water.

Two different thoughts.