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#1 Ambitious

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 06:56 PM

This is a discussion about "Jormag" (previously known as "Drakkar") his territory, and his possible intentions. I took a 3D image of Jormag to get different shots of him, different than we have seen before possibly.

*Update*

Stéphane Lo Presti said:

The dragon burried beneath the ice of Drakkar Lake is actually not Jormag. He's to Jormag what the Shatterer is to Kralkatorrik, something akin to lieutenant.
So this guy that I went and took 3D pictures of a few years back isn't actually Jormag.
Updated with bigger pictures.

Imposter's Head
Posted Image


Imposter's Neck-Abdomen Region

Posted Image


Imposter's Body

Posted Image

Imposter's "Flipper"
Posted Image

*Update*
This is Jormag's tooth in Hoelbrak, as seen in the PAX East 2011 demo:
Posted Image
As you can see by the tiny norn figures surrounding it, the tooth is huge.

Well, obviously, Jormag has no wings whatsoever. I'm inclined to think that he may use his pincer appendages to claw his way around the ice. What do you guys think?

A map of his possible territory would be great if anyone can provide one.

Edited by Ambitious, 16 March 2011 - 10:39 PM.


#2 Huginn

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 06:59 PM

The ice makes illusions, it looks much biger/dragonlike if you blow up the ice ;)

No srsly, i dunno right now xD

edit: a thing that is bugging me is why he's so much smaller than primodus, Kralkatorrik and zhaitan (it seems like it anyways)

Edited by Huginn, 10 October 2009 - 07:05 PM.


#3 Ambitious

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 07:15 PM

Huginn said:

The ice makes illusions, it looks much biger/dragonlike if you blow up the ice ;)

No srsly, i dunno right now xD

edit: a thing that is bugging me is why he's so much smaller than primodus, Kralkatorrik and zhaitan (it seems like it anyways)

Kralkatorrik is quite mammoth, so he dwarfs them all. Jormag is about the size of Zhaitan, only a tad smaller I think. I'm still pondering what Jormag's main weapon is. Possibly the way he corrupts creatures?

#4 Huginn

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 07:23 PM

Ambitious said:

Kralkatorrik is quite mammoth, so he dwarfs them all. Jormag is about the size of Zhaitan, only a tad smaller I think. I'm still pondering what Jormag's main weapon is. Possibly the way he corrupts creatures?

I do think this is in some way the power of all dragons, zhaitan got the undead anyways :P

primordus get destroyers, deep sea get octopus tentacles and Kralkatorrik... get desert hydras? :surprised:

#5 Calvar Draveir

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 07:52 PM

Huginn said:

The ice makes illusions, it looks much biger/dragonlike if you blow up the ice ;)

No srsly, i dunno right now xD

edit: a thing that is bugging me is why he's so much smaller than primodus, Kralkatorrik and zhaitan (it seems like it anyways)

Mybe being in stasis and not having acess to his power made him temporarily shrink.  Or maybe they will just retcon him bigger, on account of them not having enough resources to make a big enough model in GW1.

#6 Huginn

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 07:58 PM

Calvar Draveir said:

Mybe being in stasis and not having acess to his power made him temporarily shrink.  Or maybe they will just retcon him bigger, on account of them not having enough resources to make a big enough model in GW1.

well... they did make primordus and Kralkatorrik in gw1 :P

don't think it was because they couldn't make a bigger one ;)

#7 damkel

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 08:05 PM

Nice pics!!! Never seen that much detail before.

Like Calvar said, expect a retcon. Cos right now he doesn't look too menacing with his pincers or flippers. He might be a fish out of water on land ;)

#8 Karuro

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 08:35 PM

I think the Jormag model might not be 100% complete/true size.
They're trying to show he's frozen inside the ice from above.
And if you look down in a pond for example, and try to reach your hand into it, the bottom is further than it looks.

Also explains why he looks kinda flat.

#9 Arghore

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 09:02 PM

The thing that strikes me most is that he doesnt look much like a land creature at all ... asif the was sleeping at the bottom of the sea, then got pushed up by tectonic plates of kryta & charr land colliding then still sleeping froze in said pond ... but ofcourse he might have just been sleeping at the bottom of a valley that created a lake around him which then froze over ...

As for powers, well that is the weird thing, and seeing my linking Elemental powers to the dragons was not well received i will not try this again ... mostlikely he will twist and corrupt the creatures in the shiverpeaks in a similar way Kralkatorrik does so in the ascalon region, remember the 4armed Charr like thing, i think that is what could happen with a Charr when Kralkatorrik flies over (i have seen some concept art in the book, that looks to be Kralkatorrik, and tbh, he looks like he will be very much capable of causing such a thing to happen to a Charr ..

So, i would expect a similar thing for the Creatures in the shiverpeaks only under the influence of Jormag, and i would assume him being the dragon of snow and ice, this to play a part in the transformation these creatures might goto, upon contact with Jormag...

#10 Hyper Cutter

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 01:22 AM

I have to assume the djinn are connected with Jormag in some way, given how many of them there are patrolling that lake (with a boss sitting pretty much on top of him)

#11 TedTheShred

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 01:36 AM

A long time ago, back during the trial prior to the game's first release, a thread opened up on GWG titled "There's something scary beneath Drakkar Lake."

I suggested that the creature was analogous to Jörmungandr, the World Serpent from Norse Mythology, and was largely dismissed. The name "Jormag" leads me to think I was on the right track.

Some assumptions can be made if this is indeed the basis for Jormag's lore. Giants are likely to play a heavy role in Jormag's story, most probably as minions like the Destroyers.  Another possible connection is that Jörmungandr's story regards it's conflict with a God: Thor. More importantly, the result of this conflict is that Jörmungandr and Thor destroy each other during Ragnarök translated as "Doom of the Gods."

The allusion to a Dragon that will kill a God during an event titled "Doom of the Gods" is possibly heralding an event not only concerning Jormag's lore, but the rest of the Gods of Tyria.

#12 Arkhan

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 01:59 AM

Hyper Cutter said:

I have to assume the djinn are connected with Jormag in some way, given how many of them there are patrolling that lake (with a boss sitting pretty much on top of him)

Well Djinns can be bound to places and objects it seems if we go by Nightfall so I wouldn't say that they are directly linked to the Ancient Dragons. They might have been placed there to keep anyone from waking up the dragon.

#13 Ambitious

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:04 AM

TedTheShred said:

A long time ago, back during the trial prior to the game's first release, a thread opened up on GWG titled "There's something scary beneath Drakkar Lake."

I suggested that the creature was analogous to Jörmungandr, the World Serpent from Norse Mythology, and was largely dismissed. The name "Jormag" leads me to think I was on the right track.

Some assumptions can be made if this is indeed the basis for Jormag's lore. Giants are likely to play a heavy role in Jormag's story, most probably as minions like the Destroyers.  Another possible connection is that Jörmungandr's story regards it's conflict with a God: Thor. More importantly, the result of this conflict is that Jörmungandr and Thor destroy each other during Ragnarök translated as "Doom of the Gods."

The allusion to a Dragon that will kill a God during an event titled "Doom of the Gods" is possibly heralding an event not only concerning Jormag's lore, but the rest of the Gods of Tyria.

Interesting. Jormag's location (close to the Norn) is most likely a reference to this Jörmungandr, if what you say is true. Do you know anything more about this myth? It may be more important than we realize.

#14 Arkhan

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:17 AM

Jörmungandr is the offspring of a Norse deity known as Loki that is the god of mischief and pretty much act as the Devil or Norse mythology. He also had other offspring such as Hel the goddess of the kingdom of the dead and Fenrir a mighty wolf that will kill the king of the gods during Ragnarök (the final battle and kinda the end of the world).

But I guess that it is just a name they are using to associate the dragons with apocalyptic beings.

#15 TedTheShred

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:39 AM

Ambitious said:

Interesting. Jormag's location (close to the Norn) is most likely a reference to this Jörmungandr, if what you say is true. Do you know anything more about this myth? It may be more important than we realize.

Well, Jörmungandr is the middle child of the God Loki and the Giantess Angrboða. Loki's dad, Odin, banished all of Loki's children.From wikipedia:

Quote

He tossed Jörmungandr into the great ocean that encircles Midgard. The serpent grew so big that he was able to surround the Earth and grasp his own tail. When he lets go the world will end.

Jörmungandr appears in three stories that include Thor, his nemesis. In the first, it turns into a giant cat, then Thor attempts to lift it off the ground but only manages to get one foot off. In the second, it is caught by Thor, who is fishing with a Giant, and before he has a chance to kill it with his hammer the Giant cuts the line. In the third Jörmungandr comes out of the ocean to poison the sky, but is killed by Thor. Thor, however is poisoned himself and after nine paces falls to the ground, dead.

That's about it for Jörmungandr lore.

#16 Whisper

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:41 AM

TedTheShred said:

Some assumptions can be made if this is indeed the basis for Jormag's lore. Giants are likely to play a heavy role in Jormag's story, most probably as minions like the Destroyers
The norn are more likely the ones to be corrupted.

TedTheShred said:

Ragnarök translated as "Doom of the Gods."

Where do you get that from?

Ragna= Gods  
Rökr= Fate

So its Fate of the gods rather than doom of the gods.

TedTheShred said:

Well, Jörmungandr is the middle child of the God Loki and the Giantess Angrboða. Loki's dad, Odin, banished all of Loki's children.From wikipedia:
Odin was never the father of Loki. The two were blood brothers.
Also it should be noticed that Loki had 5 children and not 3, the 3 of them were as stated children of him and Angerboda: Hel,The Midgaards Wurm and Fenrir, those were the ones to be banished. The two others were:  Vale and Narfe those he had with the Aesir Sigyn. The 3 Jotun children were banished, as said before by Odin, what should be taken into account thoug, is that at that time Odin diden't know those were the children of Loki.

Edited by Whisper, 11 October 2009 - 03:03 AM.


#17 Piflo

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:52 AM

Hmmm...underwater battle with Jormag anyone?

I'm beginning to believe that the Norn who have been mentioned as "worshipers" of Jormag may be Nornbears or other corrupted creatures similar to Svanir. That is, those who, upon finding Jormag's power, accepted in the same way Svanir did (rather then reject it like Jora) and went insane/mutated into icy were-creatures.

Since its been stated that Zhaitan is the big baddie in GW2, I wonder how much of Jormag we'll actually be seeing. We might end up waiting for an expansion before we actually get to face him ourselves.

#18 Malchior Devenholm

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:00 AM

Whisper said:

The norn are more likely the ones to be corrupted.

Norn are giants :)

And a comment to the size of Jormag.  The scouts aboard Titanic only saw the tip of the iceberg.  I'm sure we're only seeing the tip of Jormag.

#19 Whisper

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:04 AM

Piflo said:

Hmmm...underwater battle with Jormag anyone?

I'm beginning to believe that the Norn who have been mentioned as "worshipers" of Jormag may be Nornbears or other corrupted creatures similar to Svanir. That is, those who, upon finding Jormag's power, accepted in the same way Svanir did (rather then reject it like Jora) and went insane/mutated into icy were-creatures.

Since its been stated that Zhaitan is the big baddie in GW2, I wonder how much of Jormag we'll actually be seeing. We might end up waiting for an expansion before we actually get to face him ourselves.

It was said (can't remember where will look it up if you want me to :P) that all the Ancient dragons would be included in Guild wars 2.

Malchior Devenholm said:

Norn are giants :)

And a comment to the size of Jormag.  The scouts aboard Titanic only saw the tip of the iceberg.  I'm sure we're only seeing the tip of Jormag.
Norn are half giants :)

#20 Piflo

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:17 AM

Whisper said:

It was said (can't remember where will look it up if you want me to :P) that all the Ancient dragons would be included in Guild wars 2.

They've also said that the primary focus will be on Zhaitan. We can't be sure how large a role the others will play. "Included" might mean we only get to fight their minions and hear the stories about them.

Corrupted half-giants make quite fitting minions, all things considered.:)

#21 TedTheShred

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:23 AM

Quote

Where do you get that from?

Ragna= Gods
Rökr= Fate

So its Fate of the gods rather than doom of the gods.

In stanza 39 of the Poetic Edda poem Lokasenna, and in Snorri's Prose Edda, the form ragnarök(k)r appears, rök(k)r meaning "twilight". From Helgakviða Hundingsbana II stanza 41, regin þrjóta ("end of the gods").

Translations of Old Norse are varied, and I may have taken liberties describing Ragnarök literally as "Doom of the Gods," however the "fate" of the God's is quite clearly indicated as their end.

#22 Arkhan

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:24 AM

Even if we might not get to directly confront them all at first their presence will probably be noticed throughout Tyria.

#23 Ambitious

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:29 AM

Malchior Devenholm said:

And a comment to the size of Jormag.  The scouts aboard Titanic only saw the tip of the iceberg.  I'm sure we're only seeing the tip of Jormag.

If you mean that literally, I can assure you that if this creature is in fact Jormag, all he has to him is right here. I searched everywhere in the zone for more of his model but this is all there was.

Unless you mean that this could be merely a different form of Jormag.

#24 Malchior Devenholm

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:36 AM

None of his body extends below the ice?

#25 Whisper

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:39 AM

TedTheShred said:

In stanza 39 of the Poetic Edda poem Lokasenna, and in Snorri's Prose Edda, the form ragnarök(k)r appears, rök(k)r meaning "twilight". From Helgakviða Hundingsbana II stanza 41, regin þrjóta ("end of the gods").

Translations of Old Norse are varied, and I may have taken liberties describing Ragnarök literally as "Doom of the Gods," however the "fate" of the God's is quite clearly indicated as their end.

Indeed but as it isen't the end of the norse gods per say i find the other meaning more fitting :).

#26 Noxixes

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:40 AM

what about this http://guildwars.wik...wiki/Jormungand kinda makes jormag not jormundgandr from the norse mythology cus there already is one, and there is also the fenris wolf too in GW1

#27 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 04:03 AM

Calvar Draveir said:

Mybe being in stasis and not having acess to his power made him temporarily shrink.  Or maybe they will just retcon him bigger, on account of them not having enough resources to make a big enough model in GW1.
I think it is less of a big enough model, and more of a time restraint and the optical illusion of the ice, which is why it is so edgy.

Hyper Cutter said:

I have to assume the djinn are connected with Jormag in some way, given how many of them there are patrolling that lake (with a boss sitting pretty much on top of him)
I wouldn't doubt the elementals (which includes the djinn, even though they are technically spirits) are connected to Jormag. However, it could be that they were attracted to the spot by magic - as it seems elementals are drawn to locations of magic (shown in this quest).

Whisper said:

Norn are half giants :)
Only in description. :)

Noxixes said:

what about this http://guildwars.wik...wiki/Jormungand kinda makes jormag not jormundgandr from the norse mythology cus there already is one, and there is also the fenris wolf too in GW1
There could be two, technically, though Jormag doesn't fit the idea of a world serpent while the wurm does.

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#28 Ambitious

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 04:31 AM

Malchior Devenholm said:

None of his body extends below the ice?

No, it doesn't. His body consists of a head, a neck, a turtle-like body, four appendages and a long tail.

It may also be of note that his skin is extremely similar to a sea turtle's up close.

EDIT: Konig, is there a way to make the pictures bigger? I'm using Imageshack but I don't remember how to make them larger without having to navigate away from the thread. Thanks.

#29 TedTheShred

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 04:54 AM

Quote

Originally Posted by Noxixes  
what about this http://guildwars.wik...wiki/Jormungand kinda makes jormag not jormundgandr from the norse mythology cus there already is one, and there is also the fenris wolf too in GW1

Interesting. I would also note that a Ritualist existed before the profession, and that Kodan appeared before The Kodan. It is entirely possible that the team wanted to make reference to Norse lore in Eye of the North without yet having pinned down all the lore surrounding the monster under Drakkar Lake.

Quote

There could be two, technically, though Jormag doesn't fit the idea of a world serpent while the wurm does.

I would disagree, here. Though Jormungand the wurm does fit the word serpent better than a dragon, I think that Jörmungandr's importance in it's own story (Kills a God, Poisons the Sky, and would end the world if it ever let go) compares more to Jormag's importance in Guild Wars Lore than a random Wurm Boss with no lore associated.

#30 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 05:00 AM

Ambitious said:

Konig, is there a way to make the pictures bigger? I'm using Imageshack but I don't remember how to make them larger without having to navigate away from the thread. Thanks.
I don't know how to use imageshack - I use photobucket.

TedTheShred said:

It is entirely possible that the team wanted to make reference to Norse lore in Eye of the North without yet having pinned down all the lore surrounding the monster under Drakkar Lake.
Or they just wanted to keep the Norse Mythos references with the Norn and the things which deal with the Norn. Much like they are following Irish Mythos for the Sylvari.

TedTheShred said:

I would disagree, here. Though Jormungand the wurm does fit the word serpent better than a dragon, I think that Jörmungandr's importance in it's own story (Kills a God, Poisons the Sky, and would end the world if it ever let go) compares more to Jormag's importance in Guild Wars Lore than a random Wurm Boss with no lore associated.
Appearance, the wurm wins, purpose, we don't know. :)

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