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Misc Karma used as an anti-botting tactic.


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#1 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:03 PM

Maybe a light amount of karma could be consumed during trades.  The ratio would have to be adjusted, but using hypothetically 1 per 10:

If a player gets traded 100 gold, then the player getting gold loses 10 karma.

What this would do is make players that need some gold still able to trade for gold, but players trying to get 500,000,000,000 gold would have to have played the game enough to have at least that much karma for the trade (most gold buyers are doing it just to skip playing the game, after all).


This could also work with items assuming "real" in-game gold values could be found for the them.  Though I realize most games find this difficult because the actual gold cost of the item on the AH is usually much different than what the vendor thinks.

Edited by OGF, 03 April 2011 - 02:31 PM.


#2 Sagelikeone

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:08 PM

I like the idea. It presents a lot of issues with people with alts and so on, but I think the idea is not bad at all.

#3 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:16 PM

Karma is event currency. What you are basically suggesting, is to make trading dependent on dynamic events - that kills free market, because dynamic events aren't only way to play the game, many dungeon or PvP players will want to trade, too. Karma is meant to be independent from gold currency, leave it that way.

#4 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:25 PM

They could always start giving Karma or some other character-only currency for dungeons as well.  That doesn't seem like it would be that hard to fix.


Edit: Also, take note that this only occurs in trade between players.  NPCs that use gold as currency would stay the same.

Edited by OGF, 03 April 2011 - 02:30 PM.


#5 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:36 PM

So you are suggesting either major karma overhaul or new currency to solve botting problem? It seems to me you are overdoing it. You should be looking at controlling gold income, instead of resorting to such invasive and radical methods. It's like fighting weeds with nuclear weapons.

#6 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:40 PM

How is "maybe put Karma in dungeons too" a "major Karma overhaul"?

#7 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:42 PM

OGF said:

How is "maybe put Karma in dungeons too" a "major Karma overhaul"?

And PvP? WvW? Are those players not allowed to trade?

#8 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:43 PM

Maybe put Karma in WvW and PvP?

The point is that using just a bit the character-only currency in trades will make it more difficult to bot.  I don't see why Karma has to only be DEs.

#9 Di-Dorval

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:46 PM

I don't see why a level one could not be given 10 billion gold if his friend wants to do so...

I really don't understand the need to restrict people that way.

#10 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:47 PM

He could also just be given 100 gold after he does a DE and it would all be the same to him.  I doubt items for lvl 1s cost 10 billion gold.

Gold selling, on the other hand...

#11 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:47 PM

OGF said:

Maybe put Karma in WvW and PvP?

Yeah, and that's not major overhaul? Setting reward values to all possible modes, changing PvE currency to PvE/PvP currency, giving purpose to karma in PvP besides only allowing you to trade (because it's kind of meh to introduce it there just to fight botting), and multitude of changes that are direct results of such actions. Major overhaul.

#12 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:51 PM

I don't see how just making Karma more available and making some of it consumed in trades is a "major overhaul."

They could probably code it in under a week, probably far less.  And it would definitely be a whole lot easier than trying to find bots manually.

#13 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:55 PM

Or you could come up with something that doesn't require total system redesign. It's not a week of work, implications of such changes are far more resource consuming and longer reaching.

And true, finding bots manually would take longer. Thing is, it's not only alternative. There is plethora of ways to fight botting (including famous anti farm mechanic from GW) that are less invasive.

Instead of dealing with symptoms (players trading large amounts of gold), fight underlying causes (players obtaining large amounts of gold/precious items doing repetitive, bottable actions).

Edited by cdkcp, 03 April 2011 - 03:00 PM.


#14 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 02:58 PM

Quote

including famous anti farm mechanic from GW

Anti-farm from GW1?

I will shamefully admit that I have not played GW1 in quite a while, but when I left there were a lot of bots.  Did they fix this somehow?


Edit:  Also, honestly, tacking Karma onto everything is one of the least invasive suggestions I have heard for removing bots.

#15 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:05 PM

Not saying it solved it completely, but it made it harder, without doubt. And much less effective. Of course, it could be made better, and that's where I'd put my anti-bot hopes, not in karma redesign.

As for tacking Karma onto everything, the fact that you have to introduce it to PvP which doesn't normally suffer from gold bots proves you are doing something wrong.

Honestly, it would be much easier to make gold transfer limits dependent on time you spend in game, or gained exp, or whatever. It would be just as effective - meaning not very effective, because it doesn't solve problem at it's roots.

Edited by cdkcp, 03 April 2011 - 03:20 PM.


#16 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:09 PM

Yes, but what was the anti-farm mechanic you speak of?

And would it work on basic foreign farmers that are not necessarily bots but are just there to get gold to sell it?

I don't see how using a Karma system could possibly hurt this other system.  Why not just use both then?  I have yet to hear anything negative about consuming karma during trades save "it will overhaul the system," which is pretty vague as it is.

#17 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:15 PM

http://wiki.guildwar.../Anti-farm_code

It prevents any farm, not just botting. And that's good, because farming = grind =/= fun.

As for why not put both? Because your change is costly in terms of development (redesign), and has multiple unforeseen consequences - including players not being able to trade their money to mules or friends, redundant complexity affecting PvP, reduced freedom of trade (finite limits), karma rewards balancing and multiple others...

#18 FoxBat

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:25 PM

Anti-farm has slowed down the amount of cash farmers and bots alike can inject into the economy, thereby causing inflation in their favor, etc. It hasn't actually eliminated the bots at all, as the most recent topk ecto farm adjustment should tell you.

My understanding was that karma would be an account-wide thing, so you need to rethink how this could be implemented. If any material (e.g. rare crafting material) is valuable enough then it can also be used as buyable currency in place of gold, and will be very hard to police.

#19 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:31 PM

FoxBat said:

Anti-farm has slowed down the amount of cash farmers and bots alike can inject into the economy, thereby causing inflation in their favor, etc. It hasn't actually eliminated the bots at all, as the most recent topk ecto farm adjustment should tell you.

My understanding was that karma would be an account-wide thing, so you need to rethink how this could be implemented. If any material (e.g. rare crafting material) is valuable enough then it can also be used as buyable currency in place of gold, and will be very hard to police.


I'm not sure this would change it much.

Yes, I noted this as a possible problem in my OP, and I do consider it a fairly large hole.  Any suggestions are welcome if you want to help. :)


********************


General note to everyone:  I never stated that all the details in this little idea were perfect, I was just putting forward the concept.  If anyone wants to help patch holes rather than taking out magnifying glasses looking for pin-pricks, I'm all ears.  Thank you.

Edited by OGF, 03 April 2011 - 03:43 PM.


#20 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:33 PM

OGF said:

No offense, but I think you are nitpicking just to nitpick at this point.  It should also be noted that none of the problems that you have listed, even in extreme cases, are nearly as bad as "****WTS GW2 GOLD, only $20 for 50k!  SAFE, NO KEYLOG PST*****  PS: HOW U MINE FISH?"

Again, your system doesn't solve that either. Players will just accumulate karma to gain gold, the end. All your system prevents is new players buying more gold than they could potentially ever gain, and that can be achieved by limiting gold trade based on character age, experience, or whatever, too.

Your suggested currency changes have multiple consequences that may not seem serious, but they become so when you realize that you don't need to redesign karma to get exact same effect. And again, your idea isn't only alternative, so it's not "either we'll have major karma overhaul or we will see gold farmers".

Edited by cdkcp, 03 April 2011 - 03:36 PM.


#21 OGF

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 03:39 PM

cdkcp said:

Again, your system doesn't solve that either. Players will just accumulate karma to gain gold, the end. All your system prevents is new players buying more gold than they could potentially ever gain, and that can be achieved by limiting gold trade based on character age, experience, or whatever, too.

Your suggested currency changes have multiple consequences that may not seem serious, but they become so when you realize that you don't need to overhaul karma to get exact same effect. And again, your idea isn't only alternative, so it's not "either we'll have major karma overhaul or we will see gold farmers".

Yes, they will play the game to get gold rather than just buying it right off the bat.  As for basing it on character age, etc., there are ways to cheese that even easier than the ways to cheese Karma (could be).  I specifically tried to find an attribute that did not seem as easy to cheese as most.

Also, I already said my idea wasn't the only alternative.  I more than welcome any other ideas as well; I simply believe those ideas are not mutually exclusive with my own.

#22 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 04:07 PM

You see, that's the part I don't get. You are expanding karma so much that it's guaranteed that you'll create loopholes for fast karma gain. You could base it on experience and it would be just as cheese proof as if you'd use karma.

Karma is not currently used in PvP/Dungeons, so there's no reason to bring it there, because they are balanced around their own rewards. Adding more rewards (karma) requires removing inherent dungeon/pvp rewards coming from loot or chests, otherwise they'll be more profitable than events to do.

My predictions about this solution are:
-massive amounts of reworking and rebalancing to make karma fit seamlessly into PvP and dungeons
-farmers switching to alternative currency, virtually nullifying any benefits.
-players annoyed by not being able to move their money freely.

Edited by cdkcp, 03 April 2011 - 04:16 PM.


#23 Corsair

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:16 PM

What happens if karma already is handed out for PvP and dungeons? We don't know all the details, what we do know is that it's an alternate currency that is at least handed out as a reward for dynamic events. At the very least I would find it odd with ArenaNet's philosophy to reward one playstyle with a currency but not another.

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#24 Infinite

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:39 PM

It would be better if not Karma, but time is the anti-botting tactic. A new account gets a timer of in-game time that determines the max amount of gold that can be traded. A guildy can still gift you some starting items, but not gold. Yet Karma is unaffected and gameplay itself determines whether you should be making such generous gold trades.

#25 cdkcp

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 08:12 PM

Corsair said:

What happens if karma already is handed out for PvP and dungeons? We don't know all the details, what we do know is that it's an alternate currency that is at least handed out as a reward for dynamic events. At the very least I would find it odd with ArenaNet's philosophy to reward one playstyle with a currency but not another.

Doubt it. Notice how main source of top loot in dungeons is said to be some sort of tokens - which is essentially dungeon currency, obtained only there (isn't that against Anet's philosophy?). It makes perfect sense that events offer something equally specific. It would be unfair if you could buy both event and dungeon rewards for doing only dungeons, whereas you could get only the former when focusing on DE's. Same goes for PvP.

I think that best method to verify player's commitment to account would be combination of obscure, random and dynamic factors, impossible to determine by empirical testing. For example, you could use such factors as experience, account age, number of friends, Hall of Monuments rewards, amount of microtransactions, number of characters, time spend playing, and achievements. The harder they are to grind/bot/buy, the better.

Edited by cdkcp, 03 April 2011 - 08:27 PM.


#26 LastDay

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 08:47 PM

The only real fix to botting is active GMs.
If the botters have to pay 50€ for new accounts all the time they'll go elsewhere.

They are probably almost impossible to hunt down in GW1 due to how GW1 hosts every group an instance of their own.

#27 Leyana

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 10:55 PM

I think Karma may be handed out in WvWvW as well. Since there is some limited information of there being DEs within WvWvW as objectives to be completed.

Karma could technically be given out as quest rewards for the Personal Story which is tied to Dungeons as well.

As for the OP's system.... Karma is intended as an anti-botting tactic, but not in the way you envision. ANet intends to stop botting by making Karma a valuable yet untradeable currency. I wouldn't be surprised if rewards purchased using Karma were untradeable as well so people can't abuse the system. Now while they do say some Karma rewards can be purchased with gold as well, I'm not expecting all of the rewards to be and those that are Karma only I suspect would be the better stuff.

So now you have a currency with more value, but only to the person holding it. Can't be traded or converted to gold so even if botters bot, they can't give or provide the valued items/currency that players want.

#28 Isoviel

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 04:51 AM

If the concern is about people selling gold for real money, why not just flag accounts that have multiple large-scale transactions? After say, 10 unusually large transactions the account gets flagged to have a GM keep an eye on it.

(Unusually large transactions could be statistical outliers when looking at the size of the majority of gold-based player to player transactions.)

#29 Eragon Zarroc

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 06:07 AM

no thanx.  this will prevent players from being able to power trade, effectively limiting people who enjoy trading to make profits.  definitely not a fair system to implement.

#30 Leyana

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 06:20 AM

There are other games out there that encourage power trading as a valid gameplay mechanic (EVE comes to mind). Unless a large majority of players in GW2 really really like to powertrade and/or are vocal enough about it, I don't see why systems to prevent RMT abuse that affect them should not be considered. The benefits far outwiegh the costs after all.

Still don't support this system though. :p