1005 replies to this topic

[tijo]

Actually, the G73 takes it's air from under the screen so you can't see the intakes but they are on top instead of the bottom, only laptop with that design which is a shame if you ask me. The holes under it are for the RAM and HDDs.

[Craywulf]

I didn't know that. thanks for heads up.

[Elder III]

A clean household and no pets are a laptops best friends.  Nothing worse than wad's of dust 'n cat hair clogging up your laptop's vents. :p

[tijo]

Elder III said:

A clean household and no pets are a laptops best friends.  Nothing worse than wad's of dust 'n cat hair clogging up your laptop's vents. :p

If you smoke, be prepared for lots of dust too. A good way to know if you are having heat problems is to check for bugs roasting wieners near the fan exhaust :p.

EDIT: When asked if i would update the thread regularly, i said the updates would be fewer (as in nothing more to add right now), but i will check the thread regularly and if i see anything needs doing then i'll act accordingly.

Edited by tijo, 06 May 2011 - 05:48 PM.

[Lux et Veritas]

I noticed that when i tried to customize one of the sager laptops for dual GTX 485 , it went up to 3.5k xD

What are your thoughts on the Clevo P170HM3 ? Looks very good (i think) . Can't seem to find the price though .

But yeah , i'll probably wait until GW2 specs are out before choosing my laptop .

I also noticed when I went on the sony website that there isn't any more z series ? the business series . Those were really expensive (I currently have one of their older models) . Sadly the F series (multimedia) has only a GT 540M graphics card . Not that good I suppose ?

Edited by Lux et Veritas, 12 May 2011 - 08:53 AM.

[tijo]

The sager np8170 (clevo P170HM chassis) comes around $1600-1700 with a 6970m or aorund $1800-1900 with a GT485m, that's for north america of course, basic config and OS included. I don't see a need to go SLI or crossfire in a laptop anyways. If i for some reason decide to get a new laptop instead of a desktop when GW2 comes out it will probably be a P170HM or it's successor unless Asus wows me like they did with the G73JH, the G74 looks like it'll a bit disappointing in the GPU department (no 6972m or 470m).

Edited by tijo, 12 May 2011 - 12:53 PM.

[Lux et Veritas]

I don't get it . What's the difference between sager and clevo ? Why do you say sager / clevo when they seem to be 2 different companies ?

Also , I don't understand what SLI or crossfire is .

And what's the difference between P170HM and P170HM3 ?

[tijo]

Clevo makes the laptops, sager buys the barebone laptops from clevo and puts the sager logo on them. If you buy a sager, you're essentially buying a clevo under a different brand name. Puget, Kobalt (UK) and others are all clevos with another brand name. Hope that clears thing up a bit. SLI is nVidia's way of connecting 2 or more GPUs so if i say GTX485m SLI, it means there are two GTX485m in the laptop. Crossfire is the same thing for AMD GPUs.

From a quick look, P170HM3 = P170HM with 3D.

EDIT: I know the clevo rebranding thing can get very confusing, it confused me at first too.

[Lux et Veritas]

Clevo's smart . Lol .

What's wrong with SLIs / Crossfires ? Insane power consumption for a laptop ? It's probably overkill lol .

This may be a little off topic but what are your thoughts on 3D ? Glasses free (Autostereoscopic) 3D to be specific .

Edited by Lux et Veritas, 13 May 2011 - 12:41 AM.

[Dawn Quickblade]

<3 my ASUS, fast and can run all my games on the highest graphical settings

[tijo]

@Lux: Dual GPUs have insane power consumption like you said, that's about it. Battery vampire twins!! Personally, i find 3D to be a gimmick at this point, no matter what the type. The good thing with clevo is that you can shop around different boutiques for a better price. Falcon Northwest is insanely expensive, puget is expensive and sager isn't so bad to name a few available in the US. Some even go as far as offering extra hardware that isn't provided by clevo like eurocom which offers quadro (the nVidia CAD oriented GPUs) options. Clevo is as upgradeable as a laptop is gonna get.

@Dawn, let me guess: asus G73 JH/JW/SW or G53JW/SW.

[T-D-C]

Loving my new ASUS G73SW. Best laptop I have ever owned for Gaming. Can get almost 3 hours on battery mode.

The screen on it is amazing and I am pumping heaps of games through it without a hitch.

[Dawn Quickblade]

@Tijo Actually its a K61 an older model i bought it right before they stopped making it, had it over a year without any issues

[Lux et Veritas]

You make clevo sound so good >.>

I guess your point on 3D makes sense . I'm gonna see how expensive a glasses free 3D monitor is compared to a normal LED HD w/e one . If it's a more than few hundred more expensive then I'm not getting it .

For now , I'll keep my eyes open on new upcoming laptops ! :D I noticed that you said laptops running GTX 560M may come out this summer ? How good is that compared to the GTX 485M ?

edit : did some googling on GTX 560M laptops . The MSI GT780R / MSI GT683R (this looks like a very nice one cause it's only 15'6 inch so it won't be that heavy and it's much cheaper , at least according to this site http://www.notebookc...ng.51967.0.html)

Then there's the .. Toshiba Qosmio X770/00X PSBY5A-00X01D ?

I'm really interested in that GT683R

Already available at gentech and excaliberpc

http://1toppc.com/Me...uct_Code=GT780R
http://1toppc.com/Me...uct_Code=GT683R

http://www.excaliber...g-notebook.html

edit : what is optimus ? I saw some guys at notebookreview talking about optimus with 460m?

Edited by Lux et Veritas, 13 May 2011 - 03:22 AM.

[tijo]

Asus' upcoming G74 will probably sport the 560m too (I'm actually disappointed at Asus because of this, GTX470/HD6970m would have been the way to go). Optimus is nVidia's way of switching between the intel graphic processor on the CPU and the nVidia GPU. If you are not doing something graphically intensive, optimus will switch to the intel IGP thus increasing battery life by a good margin and switch to the battery vampire when gaming ;).

The 485m will be running circles around that 560m. Can't be entirely sure until we have real life test results but if it goes like previous generation GPUs that's how it's going to be. If you want 15", there is also the Clevo P150HM or np8150 under the sager brand. You can get a 485m or 6970m for hat one too. Oh and you should be able to get a matte screen for the clevos if you like those.

[Lux et Veritas]

I don't get the names . How does a GTX 460 , 470 , 485 , 560 rank in terms of power ? And power consumption ? (If it's possible , make 2 different lists) . Even though I've never used an ATI graphics card before , the numbers in Nvidia is as confusing as it is I certainly don't need more to make it worse >.>

Unless of course you'd be an awesome guy to explain the numbers to me :D

@the optimus thiny , why can't you do it yourself ? On the sony laptop that I have , I have both a stamina and speed button . Switching to Stamina will switch to that really lousy one i have in this laptop while having it on speed keeps it with the really lousy 9300m gs . xD But yeah , isn't it just like optimized and powersaver mode ?

Quote

The 485m will be running circles around that 560m.

I did not understand what you meant by that .

What kind of real life test results ?

I do not definitely need a 15' . I just want something that isn't that heavy and will max out guild wars 2 (I'll be waiting for the specs to come out before determining the lightest laptop I can get that can max out GW 2)

Having lights and everythinng is a plus :D

Not specifically talking about Alienware but yeah >.>

Difference between matte and glossy ? Pardon my ignorance :)

[dhatcher1]

Here is the most complete site I know of for notebook graphics card information:
http://www.notebookc...ards.130.0.html

Edited by dhatcher1, 13 May 2011 - 10:38 PM.

[tijo]

I meant the 485m will give better performance than the 560m. When i say real life results, i mean that while specs on paper are good and synthetic benchmarks (3Dmark etc.) show a noticeable difference, sometimes in games the difference is negligible but after looking at the specs on paper, the GAP is too wide between the designs (clock speeds/ #of pipelines etc.) of the 560m and the 485m for the 560 to ever have a chance of beating the 485m. The 560m will still be rather powerful for a laptop GPU though.

Oops, accidentally deleted my paragraph in GPU models. So here it is again. First #: generation Second and third (and fourth for AMD)#: performance indicator. Also for nVidia GTX > GTS > GT. From best performance to lowest performance: GTX 485m > GTX470m > GTX560m > GTX460m. The HD6970m sits between the 485 and 470, close the the 485 and the 5870m will probably be between the 560 and 460m. Oh and comparison with a desktop GPU: the GTX460m is roughly equivalent to a GT450 desktop GPU. Given the specs used gamescon demo, you should be expecting high settings without AA at 1080p.

dhatcher1 said:

Here is the most complete site I know of for notebook graphics card information:
http://www.notebookc...ards.130.0.html

Already linked twice in the main post :p. Yes, it is the best comparison available right now.

Anyways here's more info on optimus, some of which you probably knew but i'll start from the basics. Optimus is nVidia's was of implementing switchable graphics. For that, you need to have two graphics processors. For the current generation of hardware, it's the intel integrated graphics processor (IGP) on the core i3/5/7 CPU and a nVidia GPU. Even if you are on high performance power settings if you aren't doing anything that doesn't need the extra power from the nVidia GPU, optimus will "shut it down" and use the intel IGP instead to conserve power. If you launch a game, optimus will automatically switch to the nVidia GPU without you having to tell it to. The idea is NOT to have the user need to do the switch. Of course, you can still force it to use the GPU if you want to.

On another note, even if you don't have switchable graphics, a dedicated GPU will downclock itself when you don't need a lot of graphical power. For example, i'm typing this on my older laptop with a 9650m GT right now. The clocks when gaming are 550/400/1375 in MHz (core/memory/shader, you don't have to know what that means for this example though), right now they are at 275/250/550 since i don't need the GPU at full performance for internet browsing. Obviously, i get better battery life this way, but i still get less than if i had switchable graphics. That stamina button might do just that: downclock the CPU and GPU to conserve battery life.

If you want something that can max GW2 at 1080p, sorry but you'll have to carry 8-10 pounds of laptop, there's no avoiding it. You can get away with a less heavy laptop if you sacrifice resolution and size since you will need less powerful hardware to run the game at lower resolutions.

The only way to buy Alienware without getting ripped off too much is to talk to representative over the phone and haggle over the price.

Edited by tijo, 13 May 2011 - 11:21 PM.

[Lux et Veritas]

Right I see .. why is 485 better than 560 though ? Numerically , it doesn't make sense lol .

Well ... i guess 8-10 lbs is okay . Anything higher than that is >.>

Why do people want to run on higher resolution ? I run GW on 1600 by 900 but it simply makes the icons smaller and kind of increased the size of my view of the field ? I don't know ...

[tijo]

Yes it does make sense (you can't go with the 560 is higher than 485 logic, you have to split the numbers in two 4/85 and 5/60, it's always been this way because there's a need to differentiate the various GPU models of the same generation). Like i said: first number: GPU generation, numbers that come after are indicative of performance. 85 is over 60 hence better performance (as in more shaders, texture units etc.), one generation isn't enough for the refinements in the GPU architecture/design to tip the balance in favor of the 560m, it will probably take the 760m to outclass the 485m.

Heck, the GTX460m and GTX285m are still close in performance (we're talking equivalent framerate in crysis and starcraft 2 at the same resolution/settings and the 285m is running on older GDDR3 memory). The only important difference is that the 460m is DX11 and the 285m isn't (not that it makes much of a difference in games, the 460m is still too weak for DX11). When nVidia launches a 580 or 585 you can be sure it'll outperform the 485m.

EDIT: Don't worry about first thinking higher number automatically equals better, we all had that question in mind at some point. Anyways when it comes to the 560m vs 485m, the 560m still has enough juice for 1080p gaming with almost maxed out settings, it's not at the point of GT540m vs GTX460m where the 540m is simply not a option for 1080p unless you can make due with low-med settings.

EDIT2: Also keep in mind that sometimes there are changes in CPU/GPU architecture that cause a major performance increase compared to the previous generation so you may sometimes see a significant gap from one generation to another (don't know if this happened with GPUs, but there was one between the intel pentium 4 and core architectures). This isn't the case for the GeForce 400 and 500 generations though.

Edited by tijo, 14 May 2011 - 02:08 AM.

[Lux et Veritas]

How is 485 > 560 in plain numbers ? 100 is bigger than 50 so 560 should be bigger than 485 but that's not the case . That's what I meant , simply math . Maybe I went a little off topic xD

Quote

first number: GPU generation, numbers that come after are indicative of performance.

Oh ! That's what it meant . xD I actually did not understand it but thanks for explaining it again :D

So what matters the most is those numbers that indicate performance rather than GPU generation ? Is there something like x99 ? Where x represents the generation and 99 represents performance thingy ? Lol . What does it mean though ? 85/100 ? 85% overall something ?

So GTX > GTS > GT and higher the last few numbers the better ? But sometimes , the next generation can ...

Quote

cause a major performance increase compared to the previous generation so you may sometimes see a significant gap from one generation to another

That makes it so much easier now ! What about the case of ATI graphics cards ?

[tijo]

There's no 99 cards, for laptops nVidia usually goes as far as x80 or x85. ATI follows the same number rule as nVidia so a 5870m is better than a 6770m for example. However, they changed the numbers indicative of performance. Before it was x870 for highest end, now it's x970 as in 6970m. Every "tier" got an increment in numbers so the successor to a 5650 would be a 6750.

Both numbers are important, however if the gap is only one generation, the numbers indicative of performance will matter more in most cases. I would still check the notebookcheck charts for both graphic cards just to make sure. But you can use it as a rule of thumb to narrow down your options.

Edited by tijo, 14 May 2011 - 04:55 AM.

[Lux et Veritas]

Oh right . Okay (:

You can be extra helpful today by telling me what I should look at when looking at notebookcheck charts ! :D

They have ... Pixel Shaders, Vertex Shaders, Core Speed, Shader Speed, Memory Speed, Memory Bus, DirectX, Process (nm), 3DMark01, 3DMark03, 3DMark05, 3DMark06 and 3DM Vant. P GPU

edit : oh and , seeing how the GTX 485M came out a while ago , do you think something better will come out soon ? Should I wait for that instead ? Seeing how GW2 isn't out yet .

Edited by Lux et Veritas, 14 May 2011 - 09:47 AM.

[The Comfy Chair]

Lux et Veritas said:

Oh right . Okay (:

You can be extra helpful today by telling me what I should look at when looking at notebookcheck charts ! :D

They have ... Pixel Shaders, Vertex Shaders, Core Speed, Shader Speed, Memory Speed, Memory Bus, DirectX, Process (nm), 3DMark01, 3DMark03, 3DMark05, 3DMark06 and 3DM Vant. P GPU

edit : oh and , seeing how the GTX 485M came out a while ago , do you think something better will come out soon ? Should I wait for that instead ? Seeing how GW2 isn't out yet .

Look at the benchmarks :) 3dmark06 is usually the easiest one to go by. Although it's synthetic it is reliable as a comparison between cards.

[tijo]

Actually, you should go with 3Dmark vantage for DX10, 3Dmark 06 is dx9. Also scroll down and check the framerate obtained in actual games. If you click on the number you'll have a summary of the system they used to bench. Very useful for comparing since in some games, the CPU can make a good difference too.

EDIT: There was a time when i knew what all those terms meant but it's been a while so i forgot some of those things. Anyways here's a few explained.

Process (nm), is the manufacturing process, the nm is the distance in nanometers between each transistor on the silicon chip. The smaller, the distance, the better.

3D mark is a synthetic benchmark used to compare video card performance. The program will run a series of tests and give you a score at the end. The numbers/names are the versions 3Dmark 06 is a dirext 9 benchmark, vantage is a directx 10 benchmark and 3D mark 11 is well you guessed it a directx 11 bnchmark.

Direct X is an API that allows game developers to code their games so they will work on any directx compatible video card (which is all of them). Before the days of direct x, developers had to optimize their code for each video card model out there in order for the game to work properly on the card (we're talking a while back and there weren't that many video cards on the market at that time).

The memory bus is the interface that connects the video card's memory to it's core, the more bits it has, the faster the core and memory can communicate (essential for high resolutions and high settings 128-bit with GDDR5 is enough but more is always better).

Edited by tijo, 14 May 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[seanyo_82]

Im considering buying a laptop now for when i start uni in september, is it worth waiting until july/august to buy it, i mean is there any new range of laptops coming out soon?

[tijo]

I would say to wait, even if there is no a lot of new laptop hardware coming out, prices will probably go down a little and not every manufacturer is finished with the sandy bridge refresh.

MSI and Asus are in the process of refreshing their G series for example. The asus N series isn't completely refreshed either, the N43S wasn't available in the US last time i checked, the same goes for some of the other manufacturers, not all of their models come with sandy bridge CPU yet. Oh and in case i hadn't metionned that in my main post, you want sandy bridge. The i7-2630qm is almost on par with the older i7-920xm if you exclude the fact that the 920xm has unlocked multipliers for overclocking and the SB i7s also have the intel IGP so you can get an optimus notebook with an i7 if it's a sandy bridge.

What i would really like to see is AMD gaining some ground in the mobile CPU department. It'll be better for prices if Intel loose the crushing lead it has over AMD in mobile CPUs.

Edited by tijo, 14 May 2011 - 05:18 PM.
typos, typos, typos...

[Vencoris]

tijo said:

Process (nm), is the manufacturing process, the nm is the distance in nanometers between each transistor on the silicon chip. The smaller, the distance, the better.

This one actually gets kind of messy.  It's generally taken to be the size of a critical dimension or gate length, not the separation between them.

This post is old, but goes over some of the conflicting definitions

I'm eagerly anticipating TSMC finally getting their 28nm half-node process working, as that seems to be gating significant GPU advancement at the moment, especially in the mobile sector.

[tijo]

Vencoris said:

This one actually gets kind of messy.  It's generally taken to be the size of a critical dimension or gate length, not the separation between them.

Oops you're right :p. Well i'm in chemical engineering and had a friend in electrical explain it to me but he wasn't with me today so i had to go from memory, i even forgot what the limit for the shrinks was, only that it's at 0.something nm :p.

[Lux et Veritas]

1 more question , that GTX 590 is a tiny bit insane . Really makes me want to get a desktop instead xD

I am currently looking at this .. http://www.notebookc...5M.42883.0.html and http://www.notebookc...ds.13849.0.html

I'll add on as I move along the charts .

What's with metro 2033 ? So many high end mobile graphics card can't run it properly lol .

I'd love to be able to play L4D on high at 122 FPS .

Why does the GTX 485m get a lower FPS on crysis than on crysis 2 ?

edit : how come when I go to websites that builds custom laptops , whenever I click on one that says gtx485m , it shows me 460m on the standard and if i want a 485m , i have to pay 500 more ?

edit 2 : I see alienware has a new 18inch laptop .. interesting ..

Edited by Lux et Veritas, 14 May 2011 - 10:54 PM.