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#1 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 04:35 AM

Would cloak be so terrible if it worked off perception? Not sure if this has been suggested before, but I'm on a horrible PC and searching would most likely be extremely frustrating due to disconnects and the like. If it's been suggested before, my apologies. I see a drastic amount of Assassin threads...but I don't think I seen anything quite like this unless I had missed something?

Basically speaking, the ability to see someone who's cloaked would revolve around the direction in which their character faced in accordance to the assassin.

-If said assassin happens to be behind the individual, they're rendered completely invisible to the target, radar and visually speaking.
-If said assassin happens to be within one's peripheral vision...they show up in a transparent visage that's moderately difficult to notice...and maybe a very difficult to see dot on the radar as well.
-If the assassin happens to be within the direct view of the target, they're pretty visible and their dot shows on the radar.

This gives the Assassin a blind spot to strive and keep himself within to capitalize upon while giving individuals a true chance at catching an Assassin before they make their move. Distance should also play a factor, of course, and with the transparency still being present even within a direct facing stance between Assassin and target...if they're far enough away then that should still render them "invisible" and cater to said distance...but they're going to have to get in close if they want to attack, and they better be behind the individual in order to do so...otherwise they'll look pretty damn silly creeping up while the target just cocks their head to the side and then rails them.

Personally, I adore the cloaked until first hit concepts myself...but I always play an Assassin, so I realize that this prospective is pretty bias. This cloak concept, I think, would be relatively fair...because it permits the enemy a chance to catch the Assassin without utilizing any abilities other than, literally, turning around to check their behind. It does, however, give Assassins a chance to do what they do best...stalk, sneak up on, and assassinate a target...so long as they're skilled enough to approach from the blind and semi-blindspots.

Stalking has always been my favorite aspect of being an Assassin, and in my eyes...it was more the thrill of sneaking up on someone and getting that first hit in that sent them into a panic that tickled me pink. I never cared for damage bonuses for those first hits...just the ability to stalk about unseen and be able to paranoia someone into being reckless with their attacks. Thus, I make no statement to suggest damage bonuses while within stealth...simply a pseudo cloak that works based off one's ability to perceive their surroundings and, slight, shrouding magic on the part of the Assassin.

Because we all know they don't carry bushes along with them to hide behind... Anyway, thoughts, ideas, flames, problems I'm not seeing?

Feel free.

#2 captainnl

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 08:19 AM

/notsigned  
Cloak -> gank rogue
GW combo skills + shadowstep > assassin

That is how I see it and how I'd like it to stay.
I loved playing with the GW1 sins, what you are talking about being is invisible so you can gank people form behind with huge crits. In GW sins didn't even have a backstab skill so cloak is pretty useless if they don't have one in GW2 either.

Also even if sins could be easily seen if not coming from behind than the system is either underpowered or there is a speed up skill that works when invisible in which case invisibility would be overpowered since you would get way too fast at your target.

#3 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 03:55 PM

captainnl said:

/notsigned  
Cloak -> gank rogue
GW combo skills + shadowstep > assassin

That is how I see it and how I'd like it to stay.
I loved playing with the GW1 sins, what you are talking about being is invisible so you can gank people form behind with huge crits. In GW sins didn't even have a backstab skill so cloak is pretty useless if they don't have one in GW2 either.

Also even if sins could be easily seen if not coming from behind than the system is either underpowered or there is a speed up skill that works when invisible in which case invisibility would be overpowered since you would get way too fast at your target.

Care to read before you post?

I stated that I did not care about any bonus to hit while stealthed. Hell, the attack while stealthed could be restricted to the weakest hit the Sin holds for all I care. The panic in the individual you just surprised FAR outweighs any bonus damage from "stealth attacks".

As for your latter point, the ability to render one's self invisible always comes in handy to one who learns how best to utilize the ability...despite how slow you are.

As for Shadowstep...I love the ability, but it hardly contributes to the "suprise paranoia" factor I'm speaking about because they see you coming. However, a simplistic Shadow Step from cloak would be delicious. Keep in mind that any action breaks stealth in any game...and so Shadow Step would break the ability before ever hitting...resulting in absolutely no bonus damage or damage at all while invisible. Infact...I'd be quite smitten if Shadow Step and Cloak were FORCED into one ability...right there would solve your fear of burst damage bonuses upon cloak hits.

In regards to ganking...I'm a sadist, my WoW Assassin used garrot as it's opening attack while stealthed...and every follow up attack after was a bleed, or poison, dot. I took time picking apart my enemy while relying on my ability to dodge...so I assure you, ganking is not my desire. Otherwise I'd be opting for "Steath Attacks" that do massive damage...like you assumed I meant before reading.

Edited by XxxTenebraexxX, 31 October 2009 - 04:02 PM.


#4 Karuro

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 04:52 PM

However, GW uses a dualclass system.

Invisibility + longrange professions..
Rangers, gunslingers, mages..
Cripple/Freeze and nuke/barrage away, without the enemy seeing you.

It'd be pretty unbalanced that way.
Unless you can see the attacker when you get hit.

#5 Besath

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 05:07 PM

TF2 style spy? You can't hit anyone while cloaked and cloak has a time limit.

#6 Nevin

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 05:13 PM

I don't think your idea although very thoroughly thought out, will work in GW2. In order to balance invisibility there must be a shortcoming that critically effects the combat mechanic of the "Assassin" class. Your perception idea is novel but it falls short of truly balancing invisibility.

Skills capable of making the user 100% invisible in Guild Wars would lead to perma-invisibility. So instead semi-indivisibility should be the standard, so no one could ever truly be 100% invisible. This is more balanced, but to further balance semi-invisibility it must be conditional.

From my Thief & Engineer thread I'll pull two skills which demonstrate how I believe cloaking should be balanced.

Cloak - (Attribute: Concealment). For X seconds while not moving the Thief will become semi-invisible to other players visually by 50....85%, and become completely invisible on the radar. Attacking or moving will end the Thief's cloaked stance. (Can be ended by reveal skills)

Blurred Movement - (Attribute: Concealment). For X seconds suffer -1 energy degeneration, while moving the Thief will be semi-invisible to other players by 40....60%, and be semi-invisible on the radar by 50....70%. If moving faster then normal speed the Thief experiences an additional 10...20% invisibility. Attacking or standing still for more then X seconds will end the Thief's stance. (Can be ended by reveal skills)

Disguise - (Attribute: Concealment). Impersonate target foe for X amount of seconds stealing that foe's physical appearance visually and gaining semi-invisible by 50....75% on the radar to the enemy. The Thief's true team identity (red or blue) becomes visible if targeted by an enemy. Attacking will end the Thief's disguised stance. (Can be ended by reveal skills)

http://www.guildwars...-new-t1610.html

For cloak the Assassin must remain stationary in order to obtain semi-invisibility from enemies, and complete invisibility on the radar from enemies. If the Assassin attacks he ends his stance.

Blurred movement works in the same way cloak does, but instead allows movement at the sacrifice of not being able to remain stationary.

For disguise the Assassin much like the TF2 spy can impersonate an enemy profession from the other team. Changing the physical appearance of the character so that the assassin may easily blend in behind enemy lines. This skill can be used while mobile, and on radar the Assassin's true team color would appear as a very faint dot. The only way to undo the Assassin's disguise other then the Assassin attacking is for an enemy to identify him by targeting him.

In addition I also provided a counter. "reveal skills" which would be spells, and skills that other professions could use to uncloak Assassins in the area.

Edited by Nevin, 31 October 2009 - 05:34 PM.


#7 Remnant

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 05:15 PM

hmmm i smell invisible spys :O

#8 Trandoshanjake

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 08:03 PM

If you really want a stealth mechanic (which I do) you should put it on the ranger and make it more like a LOTRO hunter, with more survivability/utility but less obscene burst damage.  Comouflage, the equivalent skill, makes the character invisible, both optically and on radar, as long as he remains still.  It has an infinite duration, but can be seen through if an enemy gets close enough or the character does something that affects someone other than himself, directly (such as attacking).

Edited by Trandoshanjake, 31 October 2009 - 11:27 PM.
hurr grammar


#9 Corpsesarefun

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 10:18 PM

One problem with your "target breaks disguise" thing is healers or buffers, what if they target the disguised assassin to try to heal or buff him :L.

#10 captainnl

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 10:23 PM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

Care to read before you post?

I stated that I did not care about any bonus to hit while stealthed. Hell, the attack while stealthed could be restricted to the weakest hit the Sin holds for all I care. The panic in the individual you just surprised FAR outweighs any bonus damage from "stealth attacks".

As for your latter point, the ability to render one's self invisible always comes in handy to one who learns how best to utilize the ability...despite how slow you are.

As for Shadowstep...I love the ability, but it hardly contributes to the "suprise paranoia" factor I'm speaking about because they see you coming. However, a simplistic Shadow Step from cloak would be delicious. Keep in mind that any action breaks stealth in any game...and so Shadow Step would break the ability before ever hitting...resulting in absolutely no bonus damage or damage at all while invisible. Infact...I'd be quite smitten if Shadow Step and Cloak were FORCED into one ability...right there would solve your fear of burst damage bonuses upon cloak hits.

In regards to ganking...I'm a sadist, my WoW Assassin used garrot as it's opening attack while stealthed...and every follow up attack after was a bleed, or poison, dot. I took time picking apart my enemy while relying on my ability to dodge...so I assure you, ganking is not my desire. Otherwise I'd be opting for "Steath Attacks" that do massive damage...like you assumed I meant before reading.

I did read it, just skipped a few lines in which you stated you didn't want addition backstab skills I see now.

As for a thrill by landing the first hit WITHOUT any kind of hit bonus.. good for you but if it doesn't add anything it is pretty useless.
As you stated it could make some people panic I guess... but if it is just a general hit maybe I panic the first time but the 2nd time I'm like.. pfft there is a WoW ro... oh wait an assassin.

Hmm I don't quite so how stealth and shadowstep can be combined either, since you said you wouldn't mind if shadowstep breakes the stealth.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked or anything, but I just really dislike stealth/cloak.

#11 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 04:27 AM

My apologies everyone, I would have gotten to this much sooner had my Internet not died on me... As stated, very poor connectivity and equipment that I currently find myself working with...so bare with me. Regardless...here we go.

Karuro said:

However, GW uses a dualclass system.

Invisibility + longrange professions..
Rangers, gunslingers, mages..
Cripple/Freeze and nuke/barrage away, without the enemy seeing you.

It'd be pretty unbalanced that way.
Unless you can see the attacker when you get hit.

A rather good point that I hadn't taken into consideration, most likely due to how long it's been since I played. However, in most Sin cloak concepts any action breaks stealth...thus the individual would find themselves perfectly visible upon the moment they began to charge their spell.

That's still potentially overpowered seeing as how it converts what's meant to be a melee ability into a potential invisible nuke from afar...even if the individual becomes visible upon the moment they start the spell. If they found this to be balanced within gameplay...I'd say whatever, but even I'm weary about the ability to utilize stealth with distance spells.

This may be even more reason to combine Shadow Step and Cloak into a single ability. If the two were combined...the end result of cloak would be a Shadow Step to the enemies location...or you would automatically de-cloak before any attack even started. It would still give ranged individuals a step up with the ability to lurk about unseen...but wouldn't give them a surprise attack from afar.

Sound good?

Besath said:

TF2 style spy? You can't hit anyone while cloaked and cloak has a time limit.

Like I said in the above post, I'd greatly prefer stealth to end with a Shadow Step now that I think about it further... That way, Assassins can not deal damage at all while cloaked because the end result is nothing more than a teleportation to the enemies' location...resulting in stealth breaking.

I wouldn't mind a TF2 Style cloak, it does not have as much flare as a cloak combined with Shadow Step...but it gets the job done just the same for what I desire it for. I was never a fan of time limits though, I always believed the reduction in speed was more than enough punishment since you typically needed to take your time to utilize stealth effectively...

If it was needed to balance the ability out though...far be it for me to complain...so long as I still get what I desire.

Nevin said:

Post not included to ensure my post isn't gargantuan.

Actually, the idea was barely thought out and done on the fly without any real consideration...or I'd have actually included the idea of merging Shadow Step and Cloak into one ability in the first place. The more I think about that...the more I feel it would work since it would ensure that no Assassin, despite class combination, can attack while in cloak...thus no damage will EVER be received while someone is "invisible". I think I'll actually be updating the OP with this, and wish I would have thought of it sooner...though I guess it'll be preferable to wait and gage everyone's opinions on the change before doing so.

Skills capable of refreshing the ability could easily not include stealth as an exception...thus not permitting 100% stealth indefinitely.

I like your idea of including the Disguise ability because it deviates considerably from typical cloak, but your two variations of cloak are simply unnecessary in my eyes. I would greatly prefer a single balanced out variant of cloak than two specified variations that are only partially effective. As an Assassin, you need the ability to move and stop while cloaked to utilize it effectively. I can't remember how many times I found myself sitting perfectly still for several minutes while stalking an enemy because I either had to wait for his comrades to venture off...or simply plan my attack perfectly.

I would, however, like to see Disguise added as well. I vaguely remember playing TF2 and using this ability...If I remember correctly it did come in handy.

Remnant said:

hmmm i smell invisible spys :O

Which wasn't that bad...if I remember TFC.

Without the ability to attack while stealthed...most people tend not to complain about the ability so much.

Trandoshanjake said:

If you really want a stealth mechanic (which I do) you should put it on the ranger and make it more like a LOTRO hunter, with more survivability/utility but less obscene burst damage.  Comouflage, the equivalent skill, makes the character invisible, both optically and on radar, as long as he remains still.  It has an infinite duration, but can be seen through if an enemy gets close enough or the character does something that affects someone other than himself, directly (such as attacking).

I never cared for Hunters, Rangers, Archers, or any class equivalents...nor am I looking for burst damage. If the Assassin can't utalize any burst damage attacks while steathed...that fixes the situation too...without having to give the ability to a class I don't play. :P

As for Camouflage, as I said above...an Assassin needs the ability to move around to make stealth effective. We're not Trap Door Spiders with all the time in the world here...an ability like Comouflage would be practically worthless since you would have to get to a high traffic area and then use the ability...most likely being seen while moving to the location and using the ability resulting in counter measures while you sit there like an rtard giggling impishly at thinking you're doing anything other than playing Battleship without any missiles and torpedo's of your own.

Corpsesarefun said:

One problem with your "target breaks disguise" thing is healers or buffers, what if they target the disguised assassin to try to heal or buff him :L.

All depends upon balance, which I'm sure they would establish themselves while testing the ability before implementing it. I can see that being balanced...or extremely over powered. I can't, without knowing everything they're doing now, make an assessment either way at this time.

That's a very good question though...I assume it would break stealth though, it would most likely be way too overpowered otherwise.

captainnl said:

I did read it, just skipped a few lines in which you stated you didn't want addition backstab skills I see now.

As for a thrill by landing the first hit WITHOUT any kind of hit bonus.. good for you but if it doesn't add anything it is pretty useless.
As you stated it could make some people panic I guess... but if it is just a general hit maybe I panic the first time but the 2nd time I'm like.. pfft there is a WoW ro... oh wait an assassin.

Hmm I don't quite so how stealth and shadowstep can be combined either, since you said you wouldn't mind if shadowstep breakes the stealth.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked or anything, but I just really dislike stealth/cloak.

Read, don't skim next time...otherwise you miss vital information. ;P

What may seem worthless to you, isn't to another... Most of my WoW battles were won by the sheer fact that people panicked because I was a rogue and suddenly popped out of nowhere...even when they realized I was not a stun lock rogue. The few individuals, such as yourself according to you, who were able to stave off their panic soon realized that I wasn't like most rogues...

I still remember the Warrior who thought he had me...only to realize I used all bleeds and poison dots that had him at a quarter health before ever even realizing. I loathed how cheap stun locks were in that game...so I made myself effective outside of being cheap.

Regardless, adding Shadow Step as a combination to the Stealth ability would work in the same "shock value" manner. You would see absolutely nothing around you...and suddenly an Assassin would mysteriously teleport to your location with a nifty little shadowy-like effect and make you go "Ah JESUS..." in which case the individual either panics because they hadn't been expecting a melee attack at that particular point in time...or staves their emotions and then it all reverts to how good the Assassin is at what he does...........killing.

I'm willing to bank on the fact that most freak when something comes at them out of nowhere...no matter how many times it happens. ;)

#12 Falthron

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 04:42 AM

If this becomes true then whirling defense will be one of my main four skills XD.

But for stealth I don't suggest a skill but a dynamic radar. if a player or monser is behind say a wall, then you won't be able to knowthat they are there by radar but if you were looking at te wall in a certain angle you would be able to see them visibly. Hide behind a tree or maybe a rock and wait till you see someone coming and then you cna shaowstep. In the case of like a party in WvW you could be escorting the stone transports when sudden;y  the other teams shoots out of the trees with warriors and rangers and takes you down. It just depends on what the situation is and it wouldn't be limited to one class.

#13 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 05:08 AM

Falthron said:

If this becomes true then whirling defense will be one of my main four skills XD.

But for stealth I don't suggest a skill but a dynamic radar. if a player or monser is behind say a wall, then you won't be able to knowthat they are there by radar but if you were looking at te wall in a certain angle you would be able to see them visibly. Hide behind a tree or maybe a rock and wait till you see someone coming and then you cna shaowstep. In the case of like a party in WvW you could be escorting the stone transports when sudden;y  the other teams shoots out of the trees with warriors and rangers and takes you down. It just depends on what the situation is and it wouldn't be limited to one class.

Well,

The radar being effected by perception is something that I can see being implimented regardless of cloak for Assassins. I always loathed the concept of a radar as is...more so in Halo. Would love to see a more dynamic radar system for everyone that reflected one's ability to, for example, hide behind a tree.

#14 captainnl

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 08:37 AM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

Read, don't skim next time...otherwise you miss vital information. ;P

What may seem worthless to you, isn't to another... Most of my WoW battles were won by the sheer fact that people panicked because I was a rogue and suddenly popped out of nowhere...even when they realized I was not a stun lock rogue. The few individuals, such as yourself according to you, who were able to stave off their panic soon realized that I wasn't like most rogues...

I still remember the Warrior who thought he had me...only to realize I used all bleeds and poison dots that had him at a quarter health before ever even realizing. I loathed how cheap stun locks were in that game...so I made myself effective outside of being cheap.

Regardless, adding Shadow Step as a combination to the Stealth ability would work in the same "shock value" manner. You would see absolutely nothing around you...and suddenly an Assassin would mysteriously teleport to your location with a nifty little shadowy-like effect and make you go "Ah JESUS..." in which case the individual either panics because they hadn't been expecting a melee attack at that particular point in time...or staves their emotions and then it all reverts to how good the Assassin is at what he does...........killing.

I'm willing to bank on the fact that most freak when something comes at them out of nowhere...no matter how many times it happens. ;)

I don't feel much for another MMO that gives rogues stealth, but I did like shadowstep. So maybe your idea to combine it could work, however I still don't see what the difference is with normal shadowstep as you explained it.

Besides generally in group pvp, like the GW1 Alliance Battles, you don't notice the assassin either, until he suddenly pops up behind you and KD's you while doing his deadly combo. (I generally don't like the rogue's style but the GW assassins were great imo :D)

#15 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:09 AM

captainnl said:

I don't feel much for another MMO that gives rogues stealth, but I did like shadowstep. So maybe your idea to combine it could work, however I still don't see what the difference is with normal shadowstep as you explained it.

Besides generally in group pvp, like the GW1 Alliance Battles, you don't notice the assassin either, until he suddenly pops up behind you and KD's you while doing his deadly combo. (I generally don't like the rogue's style but the GW assassins were great imo :D)

Well, with normal shadow step...you can often assume the possibility of it the moment you set your eyes upon the Assassin and ready yourself before it's performed...or at least steady yourself.

Now imagine you never set eyes upon the Assassin because he's invisible...and while you target someone else, that Assassin suddenly Shadow Steps to your location.

It's all about the shock value, the element of surprise...stalking your prey until the perfect moment.

#16 captainnl

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:26 AM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

Well, with normal shadow step...you can often assume the possibility of it the moment you set your eyes upon the Assassin and ready yourself before it's performed...or at least steady yourself.

Now imagine you never set eyes upon the Assassin because he's invisible...and while you target someone else, that Assassin suddenly Shadow Steps to your location.

It's all about the shock value, the element of surprise...stalking your prey until the perfect moment.

Doesn't that mean that it are still 2 skills?
1 to turn on stealth and 1 to shadowstep behind your opponent.
Or when you used "Stealth/shadowstep" there could be like a buff and after a few seconds the buff dissapears and you shadowstep behind your target.

#17 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:49 AM

captainnl said:

Doesn't that mean that it are still 2 skills?
1 to turn on stealth and 1 to shadowstep behind your opponent.
Or when you used "Stealth/shadowstep" there could be like a buff and after a few seconds the buff dissapears and you shadowstep behind your target.

Well, I was actually considering something more along the lines of single button that activates both. You click it for stealth...and then click it once again to shadow step to the targets location...but if you're not in range...clicking that will decloak you.

If there's a time limit to use stealth though, I can see a buff with the end result of a shadow step being most preferable.

I'm not sure which mechanic would be best/balanced...

#18 Trandoshanjake

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 05:52 PM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

I never cared for Hunters, Rangers, Archers, or any class equivalents...nor am I looking for burst damage. If the Assassin can't utalize any burst damage attacks while steathed...that fixes the situation too...without having to give the ability to a class I don't play. :P

As for Camouflage, as I said above...an Assassin needs the ability to move around to make stealth effective. We're not Trap Door Spiders with all the time in the world here...an ability like Comouflage would be practically worthless since you would have to get to a high traffic area and then use the ability...most likely being seen while moving to the location and using the ability resulting in counter measures while you sit there like an rtard giggling impishly at thinking you're doing anything other than playing Battleship without any missiles and torpedo's of your own.

Squishy burst damage melee fighters should not be implemented, in any way, shape, or form.  It is impossible to balance them.  The aforementioned character would either be:

a.) Completely overpowered, being able to pick a target and kill it, without any chance of survival for the target or skill for the player.  This is an assassin with a stealth/shadowstep mechanic.

b.) Absolute garbage, because of its lack of defence.  The assassin would be CC'd and FF'd into the ground, rendering it utterly useless.  This assassin has no stealth/shadowstep mitigation ability.

Therefore, stealth should be given to ranger-type characters, because it is possible to make a ranged character with stealth balanced, without becoming horrendously OP.

#19 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 06:10 PM

Trandoshanjake said:

Squishy burst damage melee fighters should not be implemented, in any way, shape, or form.  It is impossible to balance them.  The aforementioned character would either be:

a.) Completely overpowered, being able to pick a target and kill it, without any chance of survival for the target or skill for the player.  This is an assassin with a stealth/shadowstep mechanic.

b.) Absolute garbage, because of its lack of defence.  The assassin would be CC'd and FF'd into the ground, rendering it utterly useless.  This assassin has no stealth/shadowstep mitigation ability.

Therefore, stealth should be given to ranger-type characters, because it is possible to make a ranged character with stealth balanced, without becoming horrendously OP.

There is absolutely no difference between the current Sin and one with a Stealth/Shadow Step mechanic other than a suprise factor and ability to stalk. Shadow Step would break cloak and the first attack would have to be performed while visible.

That's no different than an Assassin engaging in a normal attack save for the change of catching the opponent off guard. I'm not presenting any form of stealth bonus attack, or even an attack while stealthed at all.

Giving cloak to a ranged class is...well...I have no idea why you would claim that giving an Assassin a cloak, without the ability to attack while cloaked,overpowered if you want to give a ranged class cloak.

I've only seen stealth factors in two ranged classes:

-Night Elf Hunters who use Shadowmeld and attack with their pet leaving you with absolutely no target. You have to run because if you attack the pet, you find yourself weakened to the point that the Hunter can just slip out of Shadow Meld and off you without the slightest effort. Not sure if that's fixed now or not...but Hunters destroyed my Rogue with this method constantly when I used to play.

-Delta Force: Land Warrior Snipers, they don't truly have stealth...but you couldn't see them if they were far enough away...leaving you with absolutely no idea where the gunfire was coming from. They implimented a little black dot in future Delta Force games...but even with the dot, I was always able to land 50 kills to 3 deaths as a Sniper.

It was point, click, giggle, repeat. I played a Delta Force Sniper to annoy the hell out of people, because after every shot I'd say "Love" or "Poke"...or simply be randomly typing song lyrics as my kill count skyrocketed. This is a FPS of course, and the distance a sniper could kill from is significantly greater in such...but it's the only other "stealth ranged" example I have.

I have never even fathomed giving a ranged class stealth abilities... Even with a stationary cloak that renders them unable to attack, a ranged class can pop in and out with minimal effort using this to nearly completely avoid any damage through a combination of maintaining distance and utalizing this stealth ability.

Edited by XxxTenebraexxX, 01 November 2009 - 06:14 PM.


#20 Trandoshanjake

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 06:49 PM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

I have never even fathomed giving a ranged class stealth abilities... Even with a stationary cloak that renders them unable to attack, a ranged class can pop in and out with minimal effort using this to nearly completely avoid any damage through a combination of maintaining distance and utalizing this stealth ability.

Except that it should be given a ~20-30 second CD.  Also, it isn't that hard to see where arrows are coming from, unless you are playing in first-person (lol).  The reason I say that stealth works better on ranged characters is because they can be viable without obscene burst damage.  This lack of burst takes a lot of the "cheapness" out of stealth, because it gives the target a chance to retaliate, unlike the 1-2-3-4-5-/rank shitspikes that are so prevalent in GW PvP.

#21 Biz

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 07:52 PM

This could be fun as one, max two PvE only solo missions, but this would not work well with GW as general game mechanic. In Gw idea is that you are never hindered by "Not seeing" your enemy, but more of, not getting to or away from him in time.

Concept of cloak would be fun for assassins and annoying to everyone else, much how it is in other games that implement the system in nearly identical way of what you describe. If you have to spin around or look behind your back to see if there is someone there with a dagger will more then likely lead to twitch play of infamous grind-o-rama that shall remain unnamed.

Idea of being outside agro range, until you decide to strike is sufficiently well executed with shadow stepping, as many posters pointed out, there is little or no need to add one more dimension to annoyance assassins pose.

P.S. Here is food for thought: Imagine 8vs8 battle with 16 assassins, and everyone is cloaked, running around popping in and out of cloak only when they need to take down some npc or spike some one they cant see yet.

#22 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:05 PM

Trandoshanjake said:

Except that it should be given a ~20-30 second CD.  Also, it isn't that hard to see where arrows are coming from, unless you are playing in first-person (lol).  The reason I say that stealth works better on ranged characters is because they can be viable without obscene burst damage.  This lack of burst takes a lot of the "cheapness" out of stealth, because it gives the target a chance to retaliate, unlike the 1-2-3-4-5-/rank shitspikes that are so prevalent in GW PvP.

I honestly don't think it'll be nearly as bad as you think. Most despise cloak because of stun locking abilities and massive burst damage attacks while cloaked. That's where most, if not all, of the "stealth hate" originates from...that first cheap attack that they get from an invisible stance.

None of it applies in a Cloak/Shadow Step merger.

Personally...I loathe stun attacks completely...as stated, I was a melee Warlock on WoW XD

Bleeds and Posion dots.

Regardless, as stated...I really don't believe it would be as bad as you think...and I'm sure that if they tested it out, people wouldn't complain that much in beta. If it did reveal itself to be too powerful...it could always be made an elite ability.

Biz said:

This could be fun as one, max two PvE only solo missions, but this would not work well with GW as general game mechanic. In Gw idea is that you are never hindered by "Not seeing" your enemy, but more of, not getting to or away from him in time.

Concept of cloak would be fun for assassins and annoying to everyone else, much how it is in other games that implement the system in nearly identical way of what you describe. If you have to spin around or look behind your back to see if there is someone there with a dagger will more then likely lead to twitch play of infamous grind-o-rama that shall remain unnamed.

Idea of being outside agro range, until you decide to strike is sufficiently well executed with shadow stepping, as many posters pointed out, there is little or no need to add one more dimension to annoyance assassins pose.

P.S. Here is food for thought: Imagine 8vs8 battle with 16 assassins, and everyone is cloaked, running around popping in and out of cloak only when they need to take down some npc or spike some one they cant see yet.

1: There is no world PVP in GW2 is there? I'm not making this as a point, though it kind of is if there is no WPVP, but I'm not sure... The Twich factor you're talking about wouldn't be so bad in a PVP group where AOE spells are going off within the pile...which would, undobtadly, break stealth as it always does in most every game. The Assassin getting that steath port really would rely a lot on timing and knowing when to strike...especially in PVP.

2: Yes, I understand people keep pointing out the effectivness of Shadow Step without cloak, but a cloaked shadow step is considerably better for the suprise value alone. With my WoW Rogue, I typically targeted players 5-10 levels higher than myself...relying upon a combination of suprise and the fact that I used a VERY unorthadox build.

My prime targets were Warriers and Paladins...because all my attacks were Bleeds and Posion dots. Them panicing was a prime factor in my win...they freaked out upon my sudden appearence 90% of the time. The single time I can remember someone NOT panicing was a warrior...who didn't realize that I wasn't a noob till he was at 25% health despite being about 10 levels higher than myself. Heh, bleeds and posion went through armor.

3: The food for thought question has me rather amused...though I would imagine that the ability would have a cool down, not be able to be used unless you were out of sight, and prolly an elite ability IF it shown itself to be overly powerful despite the fact that it's simply little more than a fancy shadow step.

#23 captainnl

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:18 PM

XxxTenebraexxX said:



1: There is no world PVP in GW2 is there? I'm not making this as a point, though it kind of is if there is no WPVP, but I'm not sure... The Twich factor you're talking about wouldn't be so bad in a PVP group where AOE spells are going off within the pile...which would, undobtadly, break stealth as it always does in most every game. The Assassin getting that steath port really would rely a lot on timing and knowing when to strike...especially in PVP.

Please go read some articles.
The Mists!!! It is going to be the best World PvP ever o.O!?!

#24 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 09:43 PM

captainnl said:

Please go read some articles.
The Mists!!! It is going to be the best World PvP ever o.O!?!

Yes, but is that not a large PVP area...it's not PVPPVE correct?

I'll have to take a look...but from what I gathered...it was an epic sized PVP no?

#25 captainnl

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 10:47 PM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

Yes, but is that not a large PVP area...it's not PVPPVE correct?

I'll have to take a look...but from what I gathered...it was an epic sized PVP no?

Yes but what is the difference?
I mean pve players won't be botterd I guess but using stealth in one epic sized PvP map is pretty much the same. Only the main focus is PvP now instead of your targets wanting to do a quest or something.

Besides players don't always have some kind of aoe around them lol..
The worst part about stealth is that you get attacked while you are chatting or something or reading a log. Being attacked by a stealthed "rogue" while you are actively playing is lame aswell aslong as there is a big damage spike.

Your idea of no big damage spike therefore could work, but still it isn't something that really fits into the GW1 system imo and I don't know how much of the GW1 system we can expect to be moved to GW2.

#26 Bryant Again

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 11:00 PM

I don't think I've ever seen a full-on "invisibility" stealth mechanic in an RPG that wasn't obnoxious, broken, or useless.

In an RPG, stealth is a really hard thing to balance. Because you always have graphical awareness of what's around your character, that means you have to implement some rather wonky mechanics - mechanics I'd rather not ever see happen in GW. Shadow-stepping was also an annoying and broken mechanic because it completely bypassed positioning, something that's still rather vital in Guild Wars PvP.

I'd much rather see slight changes that would make a character more "stealthy" instead of full-on invisibility. Not showing up on the radar is a pretty cool one.

#27 Trandoshanjake

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 11:04 PM

XxxTenebraexxX said:

I honestly don't think it'll be nearly as bad as you think. Most despise cloak because of stun locking abilities and massive burst damage attacks while cloaked. That's where most, if not all, of the "stealth hate" originates from...that first cheap attack that they get from an invisible stance.

None of it applies in a Cloak/Shadow Step merger.

Personally...I loathe stun attacks completely...as stated, I was a melee Warlock on WoW XD

Bleeds and Posion dots.

Regardless, as stated...I really don't believe it would be as bad as you think...and I'm sure that if they tested it out, people wouldn't complain that much in beta. If it did reveal itself to be too powerful...it could always be made an elite ability.

Let's look at it this way:

If sins, as they are now, got a cloak ability, of any sort, they would be completely broken.  You are talking about giving a class that can kill someone in ~2 seconds the ability to avoid detection, at least until it is too late to stop them.

Rangers, on the other hand wouldn't need stealth to survive.  It would be a fluffy addition at heart, but would still give them another tool to play with.  Also, since rangers currently have very little in the way of damage (aside from BA and Rspike) there is much less possibility of abuse.

#28 XxxTenebraexxX

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 04:21 AM

captainnl said:

Yes but what is the difference?
I mean pve players won't be botterd I guess but using stealth in one epic sized PvP map is pretty much the same. Only the main focus is PvP now instead of your targets wanting to do a quest or something.

Besides players don't always have some kind of aoe around them lol..
The worst part about stealth is that you get attacked while you are chatting or something or reading a log. Being attacked by a stealthed "rogue" while you are actively playing is lame aswell aslong as there is a big damage spike.

Your idea of no big damage spike therefore could work, but still it isn't something that really fits into the GW1 system imo and I don't know how much of the GW1 system we can expect to be moved to GW2.

Well,

The difference between the two is pretty simplistic, the surprise factor in a PVP situation is reduced because people are expecting PVP situations. In PVPPVE, you typically have people focused on either one or the other...rarely both, they loose track while performing a quest...or you can catch them stalking others...like I often did.

In a true MMO environment, like they're planning to do, you also have people who are alone...instead of traveling within a pack. Guildwars has mercs and heroes...but those are computer AI and not as intelligent as a pack of human players.

GW has no PVPPVE environment...so people will still be on guard in comparison to the element of surprised gained in a PVPPVE situation. That was what I meant by a difference between the two. Again, sadly, the only reference I have here is WoW... When playing as a rogue...you'll notice that people freak a lot less and are more prone to composing themselves after a stealthed attack when they're in a PVP match. When they're in PVPPVE...they typically crap themselves and don't know what to do for a good while.

Bryant Again said:

I don't think I've ever seen a full-on "invisibility" stealth mechanic in an RPG that wasn't obnoxious, broken, or useless.

In an RPG, stealth is a really hard thing to balance. Because you always have graphical awareness of what's around your character, that means you have to implement some rather wonky mechanics - mechanics I'd rather not ever see happen in GW. Shadow-stepping was also an annoying and broken mechanic because it completely bypassed positioning, something that's still rather vital in Guild Wars PvP.

I'd much rather see slight changes that would make a character more "stealthy" instead of full-on invisibility. Not showing up on the radar is a pretty cool one.

Like another said previously, I really think that the ability to "hide" yourself from the radar should be an ability that can be performed by anyone simply by being out of the targets cone of view (which would reflect true sight)

Be that meaning you were behind them, hiding behind a tree, or whatever.

Trandoshanjake said:

Let's look at it this way:

If sins, as they are now, got a cloak ability, of any sort, they would be completely broken.  You are talking about giving a class that can kill someone in ~2 seconds the ability to avoid detection, at least until it is too late to stop them.

Rangers, on the other hand wouldn't need stealth to survive.  It would be a fluffy addition at heart, but would still give them another tool to play with.  Also, since rangers currently have very little in the way of damage (aside from BA and Rspike) there is much less possibility of abuse.

That's the point...they don't need it to survive.
I revert back to NE Hunters and DFLW Snipers.

They didn't need it to survive either...which is why I always had about 50 kills to 3 deaths with my 50.cal :3 ...and why I think I've only seen 10 NE Hunters throughout my time playing unless from afar...yet was killed by prolly 60+ NE Hunter pets who's owners were mysteriously MIA throughout the duration...or till the last moment to shoot me once in the head and put me out of my misery.

I'm starting to miss that game...

Regardless, I'm obviously bias since I play an Assassin...but what I'm saying is if they tossed the concept in and no one seemed to complain during beta...it'd be nice to have since it's a classic rogue/assassin ability that's never been successfully balanced before. If GW was the first to do it...they'd finally have figured out what everyone else failed at.

Friggan WoW stealth became worthless near the end of my playing because they nurfed it so damn much.

Edited by XxxTenebraexxX, 02 November 2009 - 04:25 AM.


#29 Trandoshanjake

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 02:37 PM

Building a class around a singular mechanic is BAD

Adding mechanics to make already working classes more interesting is GOOD

Also, high damage, low survivability melee classes are BAD

#30 Feathermoore

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 03:51 PM

Trandoshanjake said:

Building a class around a singular mechanic is BAD

Adding mechanics to make already working classes more interesting is GOOD

Also, high damage, low survivability melee classes are BAD

QFT 100%

These should be laws.