[Legion]

Greetings!

Since people seems to forget that in Guild Wars 2 we will be in the early/medium renaissance era, I would like to discuss the 250 years of military evolution in Guild Wars universe and how it has affected Guild Wars 2 professions development.

How existent professions in Guild Wars have adapted to new times and how they perceptions, abilities, form and nature has changed. What kind of attires and armour will worn and what weapons and magic they will use.

What kind progress infantry, cavalry, siege technology has experimented in 250 years and how it changes the military warfare strategies and tactics. Advances such the introduction of the gunpowder into the military machine thanks to the Charr technological revolution. How the use of Asuran magical devices such the Asuran Gates has affected logistics and other warfare fields etc.

The end of the traditional castles thanks to the adoption of the cannons and bombards which replaced the old siege weaponry and maybe the adoption Star forts and the use of the defense in depth instead or elastic defense instead of the static one.

And finally, what kind of social effect could have this technological revolution seen that in Real Life, the adoption of crossbows and later gunpowder meant that even the common man could easily kill any highly trained feudal knight.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

As of right now the common man can kill a feudal knight with or without guns through the use of hexes, life stealing, and conditions. My Mesmer can kill any Warrior outright before that warrior could draw his weapon. An assassin could also kill my Mesmer outright before he could cast his second spell. My Necromancer could kill my Assassin before that assassin could shadow step, My Elementalist could kill my necromancer, and my Dervish could kill my Elementalist, my Warrior can kill my Dervish, and my monk and ritualist can kill anything that attacks them directly, While my Ranger can kill my Monk or Ritualist, etc... GUNS are not the big equalizer where there is magic, however where there are creatures that may be immune to magic guns and cannons can be a great equalizer.

With the advent of magic in the world defense structures will change little as most are designed to keep monsters out, and for use of Art Deco, not bombards and cannon fire. Most area's in the game use natural geography more than stone brick and mortar, for natural defenses. Cannons however would be highly effective vs. BIG THINGS, like dragons using heavy concussion force, whereas the Dragons or Large creatures may have some immunities to magic, like Mallyx. I wish we had a large cannon for Mallyx that would be a good use for one.

[Qyark]

Quote

Since people seems to forget that in Guild Wars 2 we will be in the early/medium renaissance era, I would like to discuss the 250 years of military evolution in Guild Wars universe and how it has affected Guild Wars 2 professions development

This is in an entirely different universe they didn't have a renaissance like ours, It probably happened when they discovered magic.

[Legion]

The problem o magic. Magic only come to a few lucky individuals or require years of training? I should also mention that magic don’t seems so widespread as we could think (This could be a case of gameplay and story segregation). People still use technology and conventional medicine. Also a Elementalist is definitely not a common man. Probably magic powers demand years and years of study to be an effective tool and even then magic has its limits.

Guns on the other hand can be used by any person and with some weeks of training to be already deadly. Obviously it would still require high training and experience to use them skillfully. Not to mention that guns are not the only new element of warfare but also explosives. For example classes like the Assassin could had become sabotage experts. I should note that early guns were not much more effective than other projectile weapons like the bow (which both are actually far more deadly than people think). However weapons like bows require far, far more training "If you wish to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather" and heavy bows required great skill and significant strength and stamina. The great advantage of guns have is the training requirements.

On the other hand, I am also curious about how the classes has evolved over time. For example the Dervish could have adapted and developed new formations. For example the dervishes/warriors could had invented the Swiss pike (which in Real Life became the end of the armored cavalry knights) using a more diverse of polearms being able to charge with them any foe and compensating the probable lost of divine powers (they will probably still have other magics) due the mysterious absence of the gods and would allow any non-believer races to adopt their new tactics.

There are mentions of new schools of magics and undoubtedly the Asura must influence it. Even when the Asura could be somewhat reserved there is not doubt that many of their inventions has influenced warfare (Golems, Asuran Gates...). I’m also curious about the current perception over necromantic magic after 250 years of devastation caused by undead armies.

About the question of fortifications, I’m sure that the Ebon Vanguard must have fight against the Iron Legion devices and has been forced to adapt otherwise they will be defeated by now. Ebonhawke fort could be designed to resist Iron Legions sieges. And thanks to the Asuran Gate in the area they can maintain unlimited supplies.

Qyark said:

This is in an entirely different universe they didn't have a renaissance like ours, It probably happened when they discovered magic.

While this is true, I was talking about the development that Tyria has suffered in the last 250 specially the impact that the development of gunpowder technology by the Charr, not to mention Asura devices like Asuran Gates, should have affected significantly social structures and warfare. Also it seems that the devs has been focused into a more renaissance feel for Guild Wars 2.

For example, Kryta government now has a senate instead of an aristocratic or religious system and even now the Queen authority is in conflict with the senate. Obviously the presence of a significant Elonian, Canthan and Ascalon populations would also have an impact (Triads, Tongs) on Kryta goverment. Also humanity territorial and populations could have changed human mentality significantly.

The most prominent example of the civilization development is without doubt the Charr whose engineering and technology has advanced incredibly in Only 250 years. After rejecting all gods the charr has turned to their past and embraced technology and now they are the most military advanced and perhaps technological advanced race.

The Asura has been seen forced to adapt to the surface prospered. Spreading their magical devices. Still they don't seem to have any kind of centralized government and they resemble more a society of artisans and craftsmen being very careful to be neutral with all races.

The only two races that don’t seams to be in a cultural or technological revolution are the Norn, whose furious individualism prevented the formation of any kind of goverment, but even then they control a significant portion of what it was the heart of the Dwarven territory, and the Sylvari, who are simple to young (25 years of existence).

Edited by Legion, 15 November 2009 - 11:45 PM.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

10 people with guns vs. 1 Ritualist = 10 dead people and 1 alive Ritualist.

Training

20 hours of gun training for 10 people (200 total hours) vs. 200 hours of Ritualist.

My money is still on the Ritualist for cost effectiveness, or even a monk. All these two classes need to know are 2 skills each to defeat the 10 people with guns.

[Legion]

Tzu Qui Jinn said:

10 people with guns vs. 1 Ritualist = 10 dead people and 1 alive Ritualist.

Training

20 hours of gun training for 10 people (200 total hours) vs. 200 hours of Ritualist.

My money is still on the Ritualist for cost effectiveness, or even a monk. All these two classes need to know are 2 skills each to defeat the 10 people with guns.

That depends on how much effort magics requires to be useful. It could need years or even decades to achieve to be useful in the battlefield just like knights and bowmen required years of training in order to be useful. Also due the inaccurate nature of the first guns, firearms formations shooted at the same time for maximum physical and physiological damage. From the gameplay perspective, a skillful gunner should be as effective as a ranger.

Besides the renaissance era also saw the early introduction of combined arms tactics which meaned that artillery, cavalry and the different infantry units must work as one. The spanish Tercio for example was a combined-arms force consisten on arquebusiers protected by piquemen. Funny, that also means that ritualist passive buff along with the paragon will be more useful for large armies than the monk.

In the end, all this changes meaned that wealth and manufacturing ability of the different countries of the renaissance era where more significant to achieve victory than just individual training.

[draxynnic]

Legion said:

For example, Kryta government now has a senate instead of an aristocratic or religious system and even now the Queen authority is in conflict with the senate. Obviously the presence of a significant Elonian, Canthan and Ascalon populations would also have an impact (Triads, Tongs) on Kryta goverment. Also humanity territorial and populations could have changed human mentality significantly.

The Senate was originally based on the system of government for the refugee camps or something like that, so I'm willing to bet that the different ethnicities have at least close to equal representation.

Tzu Qui Jinn said:

10 people with guns vs. 1 Ritualist = 10 dead people and 1 alive Ritualist.

Training

20 hours of gun training for 10 people (200 total hours) vs. 200 hours of Ritualist.

My money is still on the Ritualist for cost effectiveness, or even a monk. All these two classes need to know are 2 skills each to defeat the 10 people with guns.

In most settings with magic, magical training typically takes at least a year or so of concerted effort. Including direct training, helping the teacher with experiments, and doing one's own study when the master is busy with something they don't want the apprentice involved in, an 8-hour day might be a conservative estimate - and that's going to reach 200 hours in a month. We don't know how much "pretraining" our characters - spellcasters or physicals - have had before they become playable.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

Think of it in terms of modern day United States special forces. The total training takes some years however, one member of the U.S. Navy Seals or Spetsnaz could handle 10 normal infantry with guns with ease. This is why the United States has changed how they train their standing army. We now put more focus into fewer individuals and more emphasis on training over time. The British, Soviets, Germans, and Australian's are beginning to follow suit.

I will admit that not everyone has the aptitude to train as a Ritualist or Monk or Necromancer etc... and almost anyone can use a gun, but that does not change how effective flintlock guns would be on a larger scale where magic is involved. Using what we know of these guns your rate of fire alone might get you killed unless there was a way to modify how fast you could reload. The moment your gun bearing infantry got in a firing line you could have just a few Bonded E/A's shadow step in, Drop a barrage of SF's then shadow step back out.

Now as a defensive measure of combined arms I could see lines of gun militia combined with Mesmer's to counter large AoE bomb droppers. However this would just enforce the theory that Your better off with lines of pike men mixed with Long bowmen and Mesmer's because of cost.

All wars are wars of economics's, If I can make a weapon better and more cost effective than my opponent Then I have a better chance to win. This is why we make bombs and why it was better to make armies with guns in the late 1600's. However that said, those armies never had to contend with magic.

Legion I am not diminishing your assessment of the early firearms period and how that diminished the individual in combat through use of combined arms. Fact is when there are aspects written into the game such as damage mitigation all bets are now off.

Yes in real life guns had the historical impact as you suggest, you are correct in every way historically. However Magic plays a trump card that would make guns in many ways obsolete in skirmishes. As far as large combat goes you might have an advantage, just keep in mind a little guerrilla warfare goes a long way. Opponent tactics such as the butter knife brigades of the U.S. revolutionary war deplete an army of weapons without the additional training to fight even if unarmed. One theory is that you can allow occupation then withdraw, then counter attack at weak points for psychological damage, or insurgency. For this reason alone a better trained army is better than a large army with little training. The first and second Gulf War proved this. The United States was out numbered 4 to 1 but we still won with better training, better equipment, and better psychological conditioning then a large standing army with guns.

(NOTE: A Butter knife Brigade was a brigade armed with butter knives. They could go out at night and kill British with these knives, "trade up" at the cost of one British soldier and arm themselves for the next fight or sell the guns for profit. It came about when the British began seizing powder and guns from the colonists during the war of independence.)

Edited by Tzu Qui Jinn, 16 November 2009 - 04:55 PM.

[Legion]

Take in mind that the current change of mentality of the military and the focus into more trained troops is due the need to fight in more and more asymmetrical wars and the lower chance of any kind of direct war between the nuclear powers makes the use of professional forces more useful for foreign wars than using conscripts. For example, South Korea maintains a significant conscript army due to his strategical situation with North Korea. The threat that represent North Korea to South Korea is very real and any kind of war could permanently damage the economy in the region. So they need to maintain a larger army than one will expect for a country of their size.

Back on the topic. While I agree with the simple fact that magic will undoubtedly influence battlefield developments of the new era, I don’t agree with your opinion about the “obsolescence” of firearms against magic. While in terms of accuracy and faster rate of fire the longbow was superior to early guns, the longbow requiered an insane and constant amount of training and was not as powerful or easy to use as a gun. Also, since firearms are much easy to carry than bow it could mean a very valuable extra punch for many units. Light infantry classes like the Assassin, especially when stealth is not an option, could use carbines or pistols. Even caster classes could use guns like pistols for defensive purposes.

Ammunition is also more easy to carry and is far more easy to mass-produce than arrows. Plus you can use different types of munitions and even being able to even use the firearm as a shotgun. Firearms are also less affected by the wind (although are vulnerable to rainstorms). Still, I think that bows will be more useful for raiding operations where stealth and infiltration is more important. Even then, those ranger units could carry explosives for sabotage and assassin-gunners with them.

On the issue of magic i think that is very likely that field artillery will never appear on the battlefield due the already destructive power of the Elementalist since they are just far more versatile although large cannons still will have their role, specially for sieges operations. The rest of the offensive casters classes like the necromancer or mesmer is more difficult to say since they depends more on the subtle changes on the magic development and how they adapt to the new weapons and fighting styles.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

Alright lets assume for a moment you could make magic guns that shoot magic bullets. Then both of our theories are true.

1) You would have a large militia with an armament that is easy to train and use.

2) You would still need individuals with specialties to both aid and protect your militia.

Passive effects would become more of a necessity such as Shouts, spells such as Aegis, and Summoned Spirits like Union and Shelter.

Formations might end up being lines of 12-24-36 militia men and 1 to 4 stronger units like a Shouting Warrior or Paragon, Ritualist, Protection Monk, Minion Master and even an Earth warder would do well in the field. You would still need strategic strike teams of Mesmer's, Ranger and Assassins, with suicidal Landsknecht (think of the uses of weapons such as the Zweihänder) such as the Dervish to wade into enemy lines of gun using Militia using enchantments to mitigate damage.

Point is in order for the Militia to survive in the field of battle you MUST have stronger units in the field for support both offense and defense at the ground level. Guns in themselves would still not dissuade the lone heroic unit but rather give rise to them because of magic.

[Sha Noran]

Tzu Qui Jinn said:

We now put more focus into fewer individuals and more emphasis on training over time. The British, Soviets, Germans, and Australian's are beginning to follow suit.

lol wut

The British and Australian special forces are two of the greatest elite fighting units in the world, and they have been for some time. They easily rival the United States special forces in skill, if not always in number.

You're silly if you think the Russians don't have ridiculous killing machines, too. And you didn't even say China, heh...

[Briar]

I don't army's using guns as prominently in GW as they were on earth, The magic is just too powerful. And even the early gun strategy is working against them (Firing squads) they all like up and then bam an Elementalist uses blinding flash and a Mesmer uses epidemic.

You have now rendered 10-20 people useless with two people. And don't you think it would be a reasonable assumption that unlinked magic spells (like epidemic) would be easier to learn than linked spells...



Also we have this story of how a single Mesmer could rend an army of gunmen completely useless

[quote name='http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kitah']"Three hundred years ago, when the thriving Canthan port of Dinfang was invaded by the people then known only as "naitahlen" or "pirates," the Canthan Army sent a small force stationed at nearby Fort Fu to put down what they saw as nothing more than a pack of rabid dogs. When young Kitah arrived with her troops, she discovered that an organized invasion was underway, led by the naitahlen admiral, Appollonia. Severely outnumbered and out-gunned, the Mesmer created a cloud of illusion that made her squadron appear to double in size, then redouble, then redouble again until her force appeared a great army. As she ordered the charge, the naitahlen scattered in terror, many running into the sea and drowning themselves. In the midst of the chaos, Kitah found Appollonia, a Warrior, and the two fought until both fell down dead on the battlefield. Dinfang was ultimately saved, and Kitah inducted into Tahnnakai Temple."[/quote]

Magic in guild wars is obscenely powerful. I don't see gunpowder effecting much.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

Sha Noran...

HUH?

If anything I was complimenting the Military forces with my comment. If you take a look at the training regiments for the armed forces of the countries I mentioned you will see more emphasis on training then in previous years. This calls for more quality and less quantity even if the reduction is evident from cold war era numbers. The % ratio's are coming in line with the United States compared to previous years. I have nothing but the utmost respect for special forces from the British and my comments in no way reflect the quality British special forces receive. They have excellent training but the ratio (not quality) of infantry to special forces, is not the same as the United States but it is getting there.

This has nothing to do with quality but number ratio's of special forces to standard infantry.

[Muffins And Pie]

I'm guessing magic casters and skilled warriors will be like the jedis of Guild Wars then.

[Calvar Draveir]

I think that since all the training you need for a gun is aiming (and learning how to reload quickly) that guns will be supplementary to magic (ele, monk, necro,mesmer, ect) and physical (ranger, warr, asassin, ect.) classes. So, An elementalist gets trained in the arts of the elements AND using guns. Same goes for any other profession.

Those who were unable to get any training may then be able to use them, depending on the amount of resources used up by the wars on the various fronts that all the species face.

Cause seriously, Jedi don't JUST train with the force and lightsaber, and eschew all of the more common forms of combat. So why should an elementalist not take a few hours out of their free time to go to a firing range, just in case they're ever out of energy from casting a big spell, or something.

[Legion]

Tzu Qui Jinn said:

Alright lets assume for a moment you could make magic guns that shoot magic bullets. Then both of our theories are true.

1) You would have a large militia with an armament that is easy to train and use.

2) You would still need individuals with specialties to both aid and protect your militia.

Passive effects would become more of a necessity such as Shouts, spells such as Aegis, and Summoned Spirits like Union and Shelter.

Formations might end up being lines of 12-24-36 militia men and 1 to 4 stronger units like a Shouting Warrior or Paragon, Ritualist, Protection Monk, Minion Master and even an Earth warder would do well in the field. You would still need strategic strike teams of Mesmer's, Ranger and Assassins, with suicidal Landsknecht (think of the uses of weapons such as the Zweihänder) such as the Dervish to wade into enemy lines of gun using Militia using enchantments to mitigate damage.

Point is in order for the Militia to survive in the field of battle you MUST have stronger units in the field for support both offense and defense at the ground level. Guns in themselves would still not dissuade the lone heroic unit but rather give rise to them because of magic.

I never said that other, more professional, units will not used. In fact for a time, there were armors capable of resisting bullets for distances of 100 yards (arrows to). I think that Militia units will have warriors/dervishes as bodyguards although that depends if the bayonet has been invented. On the other hand hero/strike teams equiped with support professional gunners will bee useful as additional firepower for the unit + explosives.

I’m also interested in the possible impact that may have on the battlefield cavalry beasts such as the Armored Saurus especially if Charr armies such as the Blood Legion decide to give them armor.

Briar said:

I don't army's using guns as prominently in GW as they were on earth, The magic is just too powerful. And even the early gun strategy is working against them (Firing squads) they all like up and then bam an Elementalist uses blinding flash and a Mesmer uses epidemic.

You have now rendered 10-20 people useless with two people. And don't you think it would be a reasonable assumption that unlinked magic spells (like epidemic) would be easier to learn than linked spells...

Also we have this story of how a single Mesmer could rend an army of gunmen completely useless

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kitah said:

"Three hundred years ago, when the thriving Canthan port of Dinfang was invaded by the people then known only as "naitahlen" or "pirates," the Canthan Army sent a small force stationed at nearby Fort Fu to put down what they saw as nothing more than a pack of rabid dogs. When young Kitah arrived with her troops, she discovered that an organized invasion was underway, led by the naitahlen admiral, Appollonia. Severely outnumbered and out-gunned, the Mesmer created a cloud of illusion that made her squadron appear to double in size, then redouble, then redouble again until her force appeared a great army. As she ordered the charge, the naitahlen scattered in terror, many running into the sea and drowning themselves. In the midst of the chaos, Kitah found Appollonia, a Warrior, and the two fought until both fell down dead on the battlefield. Dinfang was ultimately saved, and Kitah inducted into Tahnnakai Temple."

Magic in guild wars is obscenely powerful. I don't see gunpowder effecting much.

I’m not sure if we could interpret “out-gunned” as a prove of the existence of guns before the Charr invented them, I think that who wrote that story was referring to rangers or it could simple mean that the pirates had artillery, something that we have already seen in the hands of the Luxons. Also that would mean that personal primitive guns existed in Cantha 300 years ago. Also, to be unfair, hero stories are always exaggerated.

Bear in mind that guns in Tyria were invented by the Iron Legion a steampunk Charr faction known for his technological zealous which will mean that guns in Guild Wars 2 could be more precise and more easy to reload than Real Life weapons of the same era. Even assuming that guns will have no impact on infantry, the use of gunpowder for artillery will be revolutionary replacing catapults and other mechanic systems of siege warfare.

Edited by Legion, 17 November 2009 - 02:17 AM.

[Nevin]

Cannons instead of Trebuchets? We can guess this.

Ancient Howitzers instead of Catapults? Hmm...

[draxynnic]

Tzu Qui Jinn said:

Sha Noran...

HUH?

If anything I was complimenting the Military forces with my comment. If you take a look at the training regiments for the armed forces of the countries I mentioned you will see more emphasis on training then in previous years. This calls for more quality and less quantity even if the reduction is evident from cold war era numbers. The % ratio's are coming in line with the United States compared to previous years. I have nothing but the utmost respect for special forces from the British and my comments in no way reflect the quality British special forces receive. They have excellent training but the ratio (not quality) of infantry to special forces, is not the same as the United States but it is getting there.

This has nothing to do with quality but number ratio's of special forces to standard infantry.

It's the "following suit" that raised eyebrows - I don't know about the English so much, but the Australian military has always leaned more towards quality than quantity than the US when compared to the resources each country can employ. One example I had pointed out to me half a decade or so was in ammunition quality - since bullet moulds degrade as they are used, the US army at the time gave the first thousand bullets made from a given mould to snipers and special forces, then another sixteen thousand for the regular infantry before the mould is discarded. Australia, on the other hand, replaced the mould after that first thousand, meaning that the entire army had what would, for the US, be sniper-quality ammunition.

The trend towards special forces is a natural result of the changing way that wars involving first-world nations are fought. We're not fighting each other with conventional armies any more - instead of the special forces basically supporting the conventional armies as the main offensive arm, the special forces have largely become the main offensive arm while the conventional military has slipped into more of a garrison role. It's natural that in these circumstances more focus is going to go towards the special forces.

It certainly isn't an American-led trend, though - it was actually the Kiwis that set it. Their military has basically been special forces, peacekeeping, and emergency humanitarian relief for most of the decade.

Legion said:

I’m not sure if we could interpret “out-gunned” as a proof of the existence of guns before the Charr invented them, I think that who wrote that story was referring to rangers or it could simple mean that the pirates had artillery, something that we have already seen in the hands of the Luxons. Also that would mean that personal primitive guns existed in Cantha 300 years ago. Also, to be unfair, hero stories are always exaggerated.

Bear in mind that guns in Tyria were invented by the Iron Legion a steampunk Charr faction known for his technological zealous which will mean that guns in Guild Wars 2 could be more precise and more easy to reload than Real Life weapons of the same era. Even assuming that guns will have no impact on infantry, the use of gunpowder for artillery will be revolutionary replacing catapults and other mechanic systems of siege warfare.

So what are those things on the backs of Siege Turtles, then? Chemical-propelled ballistae?

The Charr may have invented handguns, but cannons certainly existed in GW1.

[Konig Des Todes]

When talking about siege weaponry, do not forget the magical defense of the Citadel of Dzagonur - that, in my opinion, is the most interesting siege weaponry in Guild Wars - as it is purely magical in weaponry and can easily be considered the most advance siege weaponry of Guild Wars 1 - and is even called such in game, if I am correct.

[draxynnic]

Aye. I was considering citing that myself, until I realised it wasn't really clear exactly what they were - I think they're described as 'cannons' in the game at one point, but they seem to behave more like an advanced, multi-use mine than anything.

The use of the word "bombard" implies a cannon, since etymogically bombards were early cannons, but the fact the Kournan versions look more like catapults or trebuchets suggests that may not be good evidence. The armanent of a Siege Turtle, on the other hand, definitely IS a gunpoweder weapon (or, if not, one using a similar principle).

[Legion]

I forgot that Luxons were sea people back then when the Jade Sea was still made of water, so it is possible that these pirates were Luxon (by the way, where is located Dinfang?). Maybe the Luxons discovered how to make cannons 300 years ago before Factions if that is true then it is possible that the gunpowder development was stopped by the Jade Wind 100 years later. However the original formula has survived, as evidenced by the siege turtles, possible they have guarded the formula in secret among few families/clan which would explain why they are the only users in Cantha.

Konig Des Todes said:

When talking about siege weaponry, do not forget the magical defense of the Citadel of Dzagonur - that, in my opinion, is the most interesting siege weaponry in Guild Wars - as it is purely magical in weaponry and can easily be considered the most advance siege weaponry of Guild Wars 1 - and is even called such in game, if I am correct.

On the issue of magic artillery I recall two examples: Citadel of Dzagonur and the Fort Aspenwood. Both pieces of magic artillery seems to be rather static thought. It is possible that magic artillery and magic devices are rather expensive in comparison to mechanical systems (Fort Aspenwood needs ambar for example) and conventional armies prefers more cheaper and easier to produce and maintain devices for their siege weapons.

Kourna siege weaponry posses the most developed “non-magical” conventional artillery so far. They have flamethrowers and advanced long range catapults. Both devices can be seen in action in Gandara, the Moon Fortress during Consulate Docks mission and during the Venta Cementery mission. Again, this could be a proof that magic artillery is far to expensive.

Things could change with the introduction of the Asura though due their advanced magical knowledge. And remember that the Charr focus on technological research and gunpowder was essentially an attempt to found a practical substitute for magic and they succeeded.

Edited by Legion, 17 November 2009 - 03:05 PM.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

Quote

posted by draxynnic
It's the "following suit" that raised eyebrows - I don't know about the English so much, but the Australian military has always leaned more towards quality than quantity than the US when compared to the resources each country can employ. One example I had pointed out to me half a decade or so was in ammunition quality - since bullet moulds degrade as they are used, the US army at the time gave the first thousand bullets made from a given mould to snipers and special forces, then another sixteen thousand for the regular infantry before the mould is discarded. Australia, on the other hand, replaced the mould after that first thousand, meaning that the entire army had what would, for the US, be sniper-quality ammunition.

The trend towards special forces is a natural result of the changing way that wars involving first-world nations are fought. We're not fighting each other with conventional armies any more - instead of the special forces basically supporting the conventional armies as the main offensive arm, the special forces have largely become the main offensive arm while the conventional military has slipped into more of a garrison role. It's natural that in these circumstances more focus is going to go towards the special forces.

It certainly isn't an American-led trend, though - it was actually the Kiwis that set it. Their military has basically been special forces, peacekeeping, and emergency humanitarian relief for most of the decade.

Australia
Total Military Force Australia flag
Active: 53,650
Reserves: 20,300

Army (26,600)
LAND COMMAND
1 Land Command HQ
1 Deployable Foint Force HQ
3 Brigade HQs
3 Combat Service Support Regiment
1 Joint Support Regiment
1 Electronic Warfare Regiment
1 Armed Regiment
2 Recon Regiments
6 Infantry Battalions
1 Independant APC Squad
1 Medium Artillery Regiment
2 Field Artillery Regiments
1 Air Defense Regiment
3 Combat Engineering Regiments
3 Regional Units
1 Aviation Brigade HQ
2 Aviation Regiments
1 Aviation Squadron
1 Logistic Support Force HQ
3 Combat Service Support Battalion
3 Force Support Battalions

SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND
1 Special Operations HQ
1 Special Forces Regiment
2 Commando Battalion
1 Incidental Response Regiment

Navy (12,850)
Bases: Sydney (Maritime Command HQ), Stirling, Cairns, Darwin, Flinders, Jervis Bay, Noura

Air Force (14,200)
161 Combat Aircraft
0 Armed Helicopters

Forces Abroad and Foreign Forces
Independent
Advisers in: Fiji, Indonesia, Vanuatu, Tonga, West Samoa, Kiribati, Thailand
Malaysia: 115
Papua New Guinea: 38 training unit
Iraq: 1,000

UN
UNAMA (Afghanistan): 1 observer
UNMISET (East Timor): 824 including 11 observers
MFO (Egypt): 25
UNMEE (Ethiopia/Eritrea): 2
UNTSO (Middle East): 11 observers
ANODE (Solomon Islands): 1,500

The following forces are currently stationed else ware:
US: 110
New Zealand: 9
Singapore: 230

In summery your getting there. With a population of 21.4 million it would make sense for the number of special forces you have, but I stand by my claim.

I just happened to have the Armed forces totals for Australia handy today.

As for Trend setting I can trace our special forces back to the revolutionary war of Independence. With United States Marine Sniper units on the Masts of our ships that could kill a red coat at 1000 meters (the Germans of WW1 called them Devil Dogs because of the technique, but the technique originated in 1792, how to shot longer than the range of your rifle accurately) and the Ranger units pre independence, that originated from Rogers Ranger of the British Crown during the French and Indian War. many countries have made special units on the Military throughout history, also including the Praetorian Guard of the Roman Empire and the Temple Guard of the Israelite (books written at the time by the Temple Guard gave influence over the modern day Green Brets of the U.S. Army) So no country can truly claim credit for their use. My point is the quality of the Special Forces ratio compared to Standard Military Forces ratio.

Edited by Tzu Qui Jinn, 17 November 2009 - 04:45 PM.

[4thVariety]

The most important military technology in GW2 is not gunpowder, it is Asura gatetravel. It creates a supply line and fundamentally changes the way wars can be fought.

For all of the middle ages, armies had to loot as they went along. It limits the size, restricts the speed at which they can advance and causes problems with civilians.

Even as late as early 19th century, supply lines were rudimentary at best. Napoleon raised an army of 1.000.000 French and German troops to send against Russia. Food was very hard to supply and most of the time Napoleon had to count on looting food as his troops advanced. It took YEARS to raise this number of soldiers and the results on the economy of German states was devastating. Even when the troops were just being conscripted, food productivity became a problem. Once the troops left for war, the states recovered, but those who had the troops march through them suffered even more. According to new research, lice were the key problem on Napoleon's campaign. He had plenty of equipment in Germany to deal with that, but no way to supply his troops in enemy territory. As a result his men kept being sick and the war was lost.

By 1870 Germany had a railroad system. When Germany decided to wage war on France, it only took DAYS to deploy almost 500.000 at the French border. The war was very short not because of the technological advancements in guns and artillery, but because of the ability to re-supply any amount of resources and soldiers within days. Hence the Germans were able to push a small advantage all the way to total victory. 30 years earlier, they would not have been able to do that.

By WW1, both sides had the ability to supply troops endlessly by train. Hence it turned into a war of attrition which ended the second in which the government ended. Lenin's revolution ended the war on the eastern front and the collapse of the German monarchy ended the war in the west. 100 years before both armies would have retreated due to lack of food and regrouped elsewhere. But being able to deliver supply was now essential in the war effort. Outside pressure did not suffice, the states had to collapse in order for the war to be won. Which is why you see U.S. troops still going after the heads of their enemies today.

Speaking in GW2 terms, whoever controls the Asura gates has a huge advantage. If you can connect all your resources to the gate system, you can bring all your potential power to the table. A city with an active gate is impossible to besiege since they can resupply resources and troops. Asura gates also destroy the concept of a front line. If the connection between two gates is fixed, then you still have a chance to mount a frontline defense. As soon as somebody invents a gate that can dial all other gates the war will scatter into guerrilla war.

Which is exactly what we see on Earth with drones and special forces able to be deployed around the world quickly. Instant travel destroys the need for big armies. The problem shifts from defeating an army, to being able to govern the invaded country.

Edited by 4thVariety, 17 November 2009 - 05:24 PM.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

@4thVariety

ok you win the thread... :D

[Kendil]

Legion said:

There are mentions of new schools of magics and undoubtedly the Asura must influence it. Even when the Asura could be somewhat reserved there is not doubt that many of their inventions has influenced warfare (Golems, Asuran Gates...).

Shouldn't there be one gate in Ebonhawke, and the Charr will probably have access to one. So the Charr could just walk into Ebonhawke if they wanted to.
The only thing in their way would be the asuras, but what can two short gate guards do against an army of Charrs? Even if they have golems. The only thing would be if the Charr was afraid to battle the Asura. But thinking of the nature of Charrs, and their will to destroy the humans, I don't think that's very likely.

[Legion]

4thVariety said:

Speaking in GW2 terms, whoever controls the Asura gates has a huge advantage. If you can connect all your resources to the gate system, you can bring all your potential power to the table. A city with an active gate is impossible to besiege since they can resupply resources and troops. Asura gates also destroy the concept of a front line. If the connection between two gates is fixed, then you still have a chance to mount a frontline defense. As soon as somebody invents a gate that can dial all other gates the war will scatter into guerrilla war.

My guess is that Gates are fixed and even then you can always disconnect the gate, destroy it or closing it the entrance (stargate iris style).

Originally the network power source was the Primordus. The original network was destroyed in the very moment that Primordus awoke. Probably the new gate systems will need a lot more infrastructure to power up the new gates (which are far bigger). So most gates will be located in fortress and important cities with magic generators, in the end that means that destroying these generator will be one of the main objective of any siege. There is also the issue of what is the range of the new gates. Early Gates could traverse continents thank to the dragon magic but now without that power maybe the new gates will have a far limited range.

I guess that invading armies attacking one city/fort with an Asuran Gate will either use shock troops to penetrate the defensive lines in order to sabotage the gates or they will use siege weapons with indirect-fire to disable the Gate ability to bring reinforcements either destroying the gate or preventing enemy troops to come from the gate using suppressive fire.

Kendil said:

Shouldn't there be one gate in Ebonhawke, and the Charr will probably have access to one. So the Charr could just walk into Ebonhawke if they wanted to.
The only thing in their way would be the asuras, but what can two short gate guards do against an army of Charrs? Even if they have golems. The only thing would be if the Charr was afraid to battle the Asura. But thinking of the nature of Charrs, and their will to destroy the humans, I don't think that's very likely.

Ebonhawke is the last fortress of the Ebon Vanguard and yes, it have an Asuran Gate. It is located in the foothill of Blazeridge Mountains near the Crystal Desert.Given the prolonged war with the Charr i think that the most advanced fortifications will be in hands of the human armies by the reason alone that they have experience fighting against Charr war machines. Using structures like the Star Fort they could resist direct-fire of the artillery although than means that you are also more vulnerable to assaults.

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

Quote

posted by Kendil
The only thing in their way would be the asuras, but what can two short gate guards do against an army of Charrs?

Because it only takes one asura to turn off a gate. It takes another to choose NOT to open that portal again.

[4thVariety]

are we sure the gates CAN be turned off. It did not seem to be that way. At one point we destroyed one to keep destroyers from coming through, so why was the gate not turned off then? The concept of a central chamber is also only necessary if gates can't dial; why else would you go to a central place to go anywhere, you would just use them like Stargate does.

Still, such a powerful technology in terms of war and only one race can build them. For their own sake I hope the other races at least learn how to operate them. Else the Asura would control all wars.

[Breakfast Mc Rit]

The gate could have been overrun too swiftly for the Asura to power it down in time.

4thVariety said:

Still, such a powerful technology in terms of war and only one race can build them. For their own sake I hope the other races at least learn how to operate them. Else the Asura would control all wars.

That came to mind when I first read this thread. If the humans are to ever get a high position in the military hierarchy, they're going to have to reverse engineer the gates and possibly make them more mobile, because I can't see the Asurans selling the technology to any race.

[Legion]

Ancient doors were far more simple in design and had unlimited free access to radiated dragon-magic. Maybe the old doors could not be deactivated due being alimented by the network. Without the original source of free energy the new gates probably needs independent energy sources to operate. Also the magic used by the new gates is different, the vortex is far more stable.

Of course there is the possibility that Vekk merely was not an expert in using this Gates or he destroyed it on purpose to prevent more use. If I recall well, during one mission the Destroyer used one Gate for reinforcements. Who knows, maybe the Destroyers were intelligent enough to use the Gate system against the Asura...

PD: There are also Asuran Gates in Cantha and Elona. Although those could be non-operative. Still maybe they can reverse-engineering these inactive gates and use it for themselves.

Edited by Legion, 18 November 2009 - 12:48 AM.