[Rivenheart]

Legion got me thinking on this a bit. Do we really know how mortality works in the world of Tyria? How does a res exactly work, does the body have to be in any number of pieces before the skill fails? Has there ever been a monk who looked down at the pulp of a comrade and that thought to themselves, "I just can't fix that."

Also brings up the point of Necromancer minions. Would it require more work to res someone after they've had a minion or two pulled from their corpse? Should it?

[Tzu Qui Jinn]

I've said "I just can't fix that" quite a number of times usually because the player was so bad, it was morally wrong to res the guy. :p

Then I discovered Vengeance. Then I found it moral to do so, after all, our necromancer needed a body from time to time.

[Revi]

I think it'll always be a grey area. It's not something that exactly needs to be explained.

[tmakinen]

I think that I touched this topic somewhere already but can't find it at the moment. Anyway ...

My theory is that (at least) those who can be resurrected have more than meets the eye. Actually, the entire physical body is just a shell or even avatar that happens to conform to the shape of the real person which is really part of the mists. This is more or less the opposite of how ghosts are usually described as spiritual energy that retains some of the properties of its original physical form.

If the 'ghost' is the real self and the physical manifestation just a sort of suit that the ghost appropriates to interact with the physical world, then the state of the physical body is rather inconsequential to the resurrection as long as the one who resurrects can still gain the proper kind of contact to forge the ghost into material form again. The new body doesn't have to consist of the same bits and pieces as before if it is made to measure for the ghost that retained all the essential qualities while disembodied. Thus, a necromancer recycling the old body into minions wouldn't really matter.

[Legion]

Aaaahh...the classic question of what the lifebar or HP truly represent. A long time ago I wonder the same and how realistic this abstract representation of how damage is your character in videogames, tabletop games and roleplaying...and I found the answer:



Your Lifebar don’t really represent your health.



Dungeons & Dragons 1 edition, original user of this system, explains the Hit Point system mainly as a combination of luck, skill and faith AK your character Plot Armor. It is an abstract representation of your char ability to continue to fight until they receive the deadly strike. Now, I admit that many game developers maybe don’t know that since they are just using the same system adopted by their predecessors.

Notice that your abilities are never affected by your lifebar, you are equally deadly no matter how many hit points you have. Hit points is nothing more than a gameplay mechanic designed to avoid the complexity that a real damage system will suppose. Gameplay has always centered first in the fun factor and second the story. In videogames the gameplay mechanics and story plots rarely work together. And when comes to the plot vs gameplay, the plot always win.

Example: Many games have some kind of ability that allows you to resurrect your dead companions but when someone dies outside of your party dies you can resurrect her...why? Probably the most famous of this case is Aeris death in Final Fantasy VII.



Second problem: The Rule of Cool.

Many spells are really flashy and apparently incredible destructive yet they hardly produce as much damage ingame or even in story as one would expect. If they were that powerful as the visuals represent then we will have:

A: Mages are zealous controlled by the Tyran government's due the danger they represent.
B: Mages are high-class citizens and rare individuals.
C: Magocracy instead of monarchies.

Remember, this individuals could burn a house or even a town with their mind alone. So, my conclusion is that magic abilities are just exaggerated for fun.

Edited by Legion, 26 November 2009 - 06:00 PM.

[draxynnic]

Actually, it's pretty much the first. Both hit points and, to a lesser extent, AL (do you really think the +30 versus elemental of Ranger leathers is inherent to the armour and not to the Ranger's ability to dodge and survive such dangers?) represent the character's stamina and ability to defend themselves at least as much as it represents the ability to sustain injury. A character who appears to have taken a direct hit from a dirty great big lightning bolt according to the graphics probably didn't actually take a direct hit - he or she actually dodged to one side, tiring themself in the process and possibly suffering some minor burns in the near-miss (unless they were killed by the hit, of course, in which case this represents them having grown too tired to get out of the way). Likewise for Decapitate - a character who survives that obviously hasn't actually had their head chopped off, but this may have been at the expense of taking some other significant injury.

This is also why things like regular attacks always hit, but do a lot less damage than you would expect them to - the game mechanics are largely averaging out between arrows and blows that go wide, near-misses that may have required some effort to dodge, desperate parries and blocks that tire the target, the odd flesh wound and the occasional fatal blow to a vital area.

[Konig Des Todes]

Rivenheart said:

Legion got me thinking on this a bit. Do we really know how mortality works in the world of Tyria? How does a res exactly work, does the body have to be in any number of pieces before the skill fails? Has there ever been a monk who looked down at the pulp of a comrade and that thought to themselves, "I just can't fix that."

Also brings up the point of Necromancer minions. Would it require more work to res someone after they've had a minion or two pulled from their corpse? Should it?

Resurrection and Minions make a fine cross into game mechanics. For instance, minions take body parts, so it shouldn't be possible to resurrect someone after making a minion out of them.

Honestly, we know next to nothing on resurrection except for one thing that is shared with undead:

Grenth is the reason it exists. He allows resurrection to occur.

But I would have to have a list of suspected requirements (in a pure lore context):

• The soul could not have moved on yet.
  
• The body must be in a decent state (i.e., without healing, the body can sustain life).
  
• Rigor Mortis cannot have set in (I say this, because there should be a time limit to when someone can be resurrected - only reasoning is used though).

If these are not fulfilled, then the body turns into an undead - or something along those lines.

As for the life bar, I'd agree with drax fully.

[Biz]

Suppose that you can and do materialize Mana (energy) into Flesh (matter) while healing, this would be what magic is, thinking stuff into existence, so Even if you are missing most of your bones, muscles and blood when some one made a minion out of you, you are still able to be resurrected because caster who brought you back to life used up energy witch replaced what ever you are missing by thinking it into existence when resurrection spell was cast.

And there problems with resurrection are gone because we added Magic into equation.

Should magic of healing/resurrection be limited? - No, why should it be? It is hard enough to keep some one alive to be around to resurrect you. It is not their worry to pick the least mangled body to resurrect when they choose who is best suited for them to waste their one and only resurrection on.

[Gmr Leon]

I think the Grenth part, in regards to "allowing" the undead, is complete and utter Godly BS propaganda. This is simply due to several reasons that may drive a separation into its own thread, but one, Abaddon used the undead factor far too easily in the Flameseeker Prophecies. Two, Zhaitan uses undead in his army.

In at least one case, it poses a threat to the Gods to permit it to proceed as it did. If Grenth controlled undead-authorization or what have you, he should have been able to shut that down right off the bat. This indicates at least two implications, one, he can't do so without stripping his followers of their abilities and causing all sorts of negative repercussions, and two, he simply can't disallow it on a small (in this case) scale.

In the latter case, it might be a completely different sort of magic we're dealing with, so it may not be under his domain.

Either way we look at it, Grenth's "permitting" undead has very interesting implications, and suggests to me that it is far from completely true, as we have seen with information about the Gods since the beginning. Especially considering this places a possible restriction to when Zoldark came into being, and when his civilization (assuming the ruins he inhabits are of his civilization) existed.

Edit: Biz, you have one issue. Resurrection Signet. It doesn't use any mana, so your explanation doesn't fit with it. Otherwise it doesn't sound entirely bad in the area of healing magic.

[Biz]

Gmr Leon said:

...
Edit: Biz, you have one issue. Resurrection Signet. It doesn't use any mana, so your explanation doesn't fit with it. Otherwise it doesn't sound entirely bad in the area of healing magic.

Well... that falls into game play mechanic, if all res would require energy, then you can kill all resurrecting with energy denial, stuff like that. Suppose using signets still takes time+effort or energy, but it is not reflected in the mana pool for game mechanic reasons? =)
Still Signets are "Magic" and you are still wishing stuff into existence, it is just not fueled by your mana pool, but trough some other means, like say... Adrenaline skills.

[Konig Des Todes]

Biz said:

Suppose that you can and do materialize Mana (energy) into Flesh (matter) while healing, this would be what magic is, thinking stuff into existence

I highly disagree. Things cannot just be created out of nothing. And I doubt that magic - which can easily just be a way to use energy outside of one's body - will bend the laws of physics. As I discussed here, all uses of magic can be explained in a way that it doesn't create out of nothing. In essence, healing magic would just be changing molecules from something like air into flesh and blood.

Biz said:

Should magic of healing/resurrection be limited? - No, why should it be? It is hard enough to keep some one alive to be around to resurrect you. It is not their worry to pick the least mangled body to resurrect when they choose who is best suited for them to waste their one and only resurrection on.

Well, seeing how magic is (via bloodstones) limited, so too would resurrection, one would think. Besides, you cannot bring a person back to life if they're unwilling and/or their spirit cannot enter the body (whether due to distance, or something else). You will just be healing a corpse in that case.

Gmr Leon said:

I think the Grenth part, in regards to "allowing" the undead, is complete and utter Godly BS propaganda. This is simply due to several reasons that may drive a separation into its own thread, but one, Abaddon used the undead factor far too easily in the Flameseeker Prophecies. Two, Zhaitan uses undead in his army.

On Zhaitan, he only animates unanimated bodies - it would be the same exact thing as animating the floor or buildings into creatures. Just as Jormag twists living beings, Zhaitan is twisting dead beings and just as Primordus is creating the Destroyer's flesh and blood and life, Zhaitan gives life to these corpses. In reality, it seems to me that Zhaitan isn't really controlling undead, but instead he just makes mindless minions out of bodies.

For the term allowing - King Frozenwind says "tolerate" - which to me means that undead were createable, but Dhuum would send his fury on them. That is, if they could of been created when Dhuum ruled.

Gmr Leon said:

In at least one case, it poses a threat to the Gods to permit it to proceed as it did. If Grenth controlled undead-authorization or what have you, he should have been able to shut that down right off the bat. This indicates at least two implications, one, he can't do so without stripping his followers of their abilities and causing all sorts of negative repercussions, and two, he simply can't disallow it on a small (in this case) scale.

Or, three, he can prevent the creation, but didn't realize/notice the creation. For instance, since he allows undead, and since he is supposedly on another planet, he wouldn't have noticed Khilbron's rise. Same can go with every other undead. It seems he leaves things of Tyria to the Envoys and his Avatar (like he left things of the Underworld to the Reapers).

Gmr Leon said:

Either way we look at it, Grenth's "permitting" undead has very interesting implications, and suggests to me that it is far from completely true, as we have seen with information about the Gods since the beginning. Especially considering this places a possible restriction to when Zoldark came into being, and when his civilization (assuming the ruins he inhabits are of his civilization) existed.

I don't really see the issue here, to be honest. The Depths predate humanity - the (current, at least) gods predate humanity, but not by much - so Zoldark could have been one of the first liches under Grenth's reign. Which would explain why he is different from the other two - far older.

That is, if he was entombed in that structure for at least 3,000 years.

Gmr Leon said:

Edit: Biz, you have one issue. Resurrection Signet. It doesn't use any mana, so your explanation doesn't fit with it. Otherwise it doesn't sound entirely bad in the area of healing magic.

There is also Sunspear Rebirth Signet and Signet of Return, but same issue.

Biz said:

Well... that falls into game play mechanic, if all res would require energy, then you can kill all resurrecting with energy denial, stuff like that. Suppose using signets still takes time+effort or energy, but it is not reflected in the mana pool for game mechanic reasons? =)
Still Signets are "Magic" and you are still wishing stuff into existence, it is just not fueled by your mana pool, but trough some other means, like say... Adrenaline skills.

Signets, in essence of definition, are magical rings and symbols. They don't use energy because they were given it already for later use. And Adrenaline is not magic... at all.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

I highly disagree. Things cannot just be created out of nothing. And I doubt that magic - which can easily just be a way to use energy outside of one's body - will bend the laws of physics. As I discussed here, all uses of magic can be explained in a way that it doesn't create out of nothing. In essence, healing magic would just be changing molecules from something like air into flesh and blood.

Or, you're completely off, and it is made of out of a sort-of nothing. The protomatter of the Mists, all the magic is doing is turning it into something tangible. :p Technically, that's still a something, but it's in between being a nothing and a something.

Konig Des Todes said:

Well, seeing how magic is (via bloodstones) limited, so too would resurrection, one would think. Besides, you cannot bring a person back to life if they're unwilling and/or their spirit cannot enter the body (whether due to distance, or something else). You will just be healing a corpse in that case.

Actually, we've never seen any examples of a person being incapable of resurrection due to being unwilling, as far as I know, so we can't say that. However, it's possible, I suppose. The spirit part we haven't exactly seen any examples of either, again, that I can think of, but I think that's more of a given than the former case.

Konig Des Todes said:

On Zhaitan, he only animates unanimated bodies - it would be the same exact thing as animating the floor or buildings into creatures. Just as Jormag twists living beings, Zhaitan is twisting dead beings and just as Primordus is creating the Destroyer's flesh and blood and life, Zhaitan gives life to these corpses. In reality, it seems to me that Zhaitan isn't really controlling undead, but instead he just makes mindless minions out of bodies.

...I fail to see how an "unanimated body" is any different from a corpse, personally. Alongside this how is giving life to the corpses any different from reanimating them as undead? I suppose the difference you're attempting to make here is in relation to the Undead's possible autonomy? That's never shown in any of the interviews or the Movement of the World, from what I'm aware, thus making them controlled by him. Although this also raises the question of, where's the difference between controlling the undead, and their being mindless minions? If they're mindless, they have to be controlled, as they can't act on their own, unless of course Zhaitan creates a hive-mind general to manage them as Primordus did.

In short, I'm not seeing where or how you're making the discrepancy between Zhaitan's forces and ordinary undead.

Konig Des Todes said:

For the term allowing - King Frozenwind says "tolerate" - which to me means that undead were createable, but Dhuum would send his fury on them. That is, if they could of been created when Dhuum ruled.

Possibly, and with the usage of that term it seems highly probable. It also suggests that the only reason the undead would cease to exist would be due to Dhuum's intolerance and an after-the-rise genocide of sorts.

Konig Des Todes said:

Or, three, he can prevent the creation, but didn't realize/notice the creation. For instance, since he allows undead, and since he is supposedly on another planet, he wouldn't have noticed Khilbron's rise. Same can go with every other undead. It seems he leaves things of Tyria to the Envoys and his Avatar (like he left things of the Underworld to the Reapers).

Or just lacking a form with which to interact with the world due to transcending the physical and integrating to a certain degree into the Mists. :p Nevertheless though, if someone prayed to him to save them from some undead threat (as in the army attacking Kryta) you'd think he'd take notice, or, at the very least an avatar would, and send notice to him. I mean, let's be honest here, if Dwayna's avatar can take a soul as easily as it seems to be indicated by the quest dialogue in Attack on Jalis's Camp, surely Grenth could use his avatars to protect the villages that prayed to him. Imagine, an avatar just sitting there and the undead falling to pieces as they approached.

That would be quite amusing.

Konig Des Todes said:

I don't really see the issue here, to be honest. The Depths predate humanity - the (current, at least) gods predate humanity, but not by much - so Zoldark could have been one of the first liches under Grenth's reign. Which would explain why he is different from the other two - far older.

That is, if he was entombed in that structure for at least 3,000 years.

The only issue I was posing was that of the age of Zoldark, this gives us some idea of it and possibly the structures he inhabits. Nothing truly major.

[Konig Des Todes]

Gmr Leon said:

Technically, that's still a something, but it's in between being a nothing and a something.

... There is no in between. Nothing is the absence of anything. If there is anything, then there is something. Nothing cannot be described and nothing cannot be seen. Your protomatter of the Mists is still something.

Gmr Leon said:

Actually, we've never seen any examples of a person being incapable of resurrection due to being unwilling, as far as I know, so we can't say that. However, it's possible, I suppose. The spirit part we haven't exactly seen any examples of either, again, that I can think of, but I think that's more of a given than the former case.

On the spirit part, we do see a case where it is impossible to resurrect due to the spirit being unable to return to the body - soul batteries. As for the willing part, well I guess it depends on what occurs for resurrection - is the soul forced into the body (assuming nothing prevents the souls' traversal), or is it just allowing a reconnection between the soul and body? If the later, the soul needs to be nearby, and by logic we can say the soul has to be willing. If the former, the soul just cannot be prevented - and doing a resurrection on a body which would die upon resurrection would, most likely, result in a simple undead (that, or an immediate death after resurrection).

Gmr Leon said:

...I fail to see how an "unanimated body" is any different from a corpse, personally. Alongside this how is giving life to the corpses any different from reanimating them as undead? I suppose the difference you're attempting to make here is in relation to the Undead's possible autonomy?

Undead still have souls, these abombinations created by the dragons do not (supposedly). If they do, they can be considered like undead - but not quite, as they would be creatures created from bodies, instead of resurrected dead bodies.

So it isn't so much undeath, as it is life from death.

Gmr Leon said:

Although this also raises the question of, where's the difference between controlling the undead, and their being mindless minions?

The undead can leave. ;) Unless they are minions (that is, common necromancy skill minions with health degeneration instead of a deadly resurrection).

Gmr Leon said:

I mean, let's be honest here, if Dwayna's avatar can take a soul as easily as it seems to be indicated by the quest dialogue in Attack on Jalis's Camp, surely Grenth could use his avatars to protect the villages that prayed to him. Imagine, an avatar just sitting there and the undead falling to pieces as they approached.

That would be quite amusing.

Sending a soul to another realm and decimating an army are two completely different things. I'd assume the avatars don't have as much power as a god (I'd think that is a good assumption myself), and though we know of at least one reaper having power over spirits, nothing is shown for Grenth granting one of his servants power over just undead. Envoys seem to have power over mortals, and Reaper(s/Avatars?) over spirits. What would be his undead caretakers? Thus far, we have none.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

... There is no in between. Nothing is the absence of anything. If there is anything, then there is something. Nothing cannot be described and nothing cannot be seen. Your protomatter of the Mists is still something.

We could get into the philosophical aspects of this, but I am content to disagree on this. As far as we can tell so far, the Mists is rather intangible, and is quite unlike anything we can claim to have encountered in our own universe. At least, if there's anything like it, I'm not entirely familiar with it.

Konig Des Todes said:

On the spirit part, we do see a case where it is impossible to resurrect due to the spirit being unable to return to the body - soul batteries.

It's not necessarily impossible, I think. We release Leah Stone from a Soul Battery, but her body is not nearby, if it even still exists in a livable state, so we cannot be certain that she could not be resurrected. This is the same for all souls released from the Soul Batteries, thus this is not a valid argument in the area of testable evidence. Unless there is some dialogue to back it up that I am unaware of, this is not a proper example of that case.

Konig Des Todes said:

Undead still have souls, these abombinations created by the dragons do not (supposedly). If they do, they can be considered like undead - but not quite, as they would be creatures created from bodies, instead of resurrected dead bodies.

So it isn't so much undeath, as it is life from death.

Undead do not always have souls. Minions raised by Necromancers are still undead, and this can be easily tested through the Monks' Smiting Prayers line of skills, as I recall. The Orrian Undead, while showing characteristics that seem suggestive of having a soul, I would daresay, haven't souls, otherwise I propose they would be similar in nature to the Undead encountered in the Desolation. This is one of the fundamental differences between the Orrian Undead and the Desolate Undead.

And I more or less entirely disagree with your ideas on the Undead, if this is how you're adapting them to the situation with Zhaitan.

After all, it goes in the face of the Movement of the World:

Quote

Many of the corsairs who inhabited the island chain before the peninsula rose again were subsumed by the dragon's power, twisted by its breath, and enslaved to its will. Ships with black sails, built from seized corsair vessels, sail along the Strait of Malchor, west of Orr. These vessels surround the Fire Islands, manned by undead minions of the dragon that fear neither fire nor sea.

This undead armada has cut off all human contact with Cantha, and the dragon’s undead army wages war even now along the northern Elonian border, preventing all in Tyria from departing for other lands...for now.

This isn't like the issue with the Crystal Desert and Desolation being one with the Desolation as a subsection, this is quite clear cut. Basically, you're using your own observations in this area to distinguish the two, when the fact is, they're undead. Undead needn't have souls, that's simply it.

Konig Des Todes said:

The undead can leave. ;) Unless they are minions (that is, common necromancy skill minions with health degeneration instead of a deadly resurrection).

So why, then, do the Orrian Undead not show some indication of individuality amongst themselves? And don't even begin to throw the examples of the ones encountered that don't attack, or the transformed NPCs during Halloween that talk to you. I mean those that are entirely independent, doing their own thing or have their own interests, more or less, and will talk to us.

Konig Des Todes said:

Sending a soul to another realm and decimating an army are two completely different things. I'd assume the avatars don't have as much power as a god (I'd think that is a good assumption myself), and though we know of at least one reaper having power over spirits, nothing is shown for Grenth granting one of his servants power over just undead. Envoys seem to have power over mortals, and Reaper(s/Avatars?) over spirits. What would be his undead caretakers? Thus far, we have none.

I never said the avatar was decimating the army. It's just sitting there, the Undead approaching it are decimating themselves, but that's a technicality. The point is, I think that the avatars can be used to channel the Gods' energy or power. Thus I think that in the cases we see of them taking in souls, that's the Gods' power being channeled that permits them to do that. However, that's quite uncertain, but I think it's suggested by the avatars' ability to take us to the realms of the Gods as well.

[Konig Des Todes]

Gmr Leon said:

We could get into the philosophical aspects of this, but I am content to disagree on this. As far as we can tell so far, the Mists is rather intangible, and is quite unlike anything we can claim to have encountered in our own universe. At least, if there's anything like it, I'm not entirely familiar with it.

But it is simple to understand that if there is not nothing, then there is something. The Mists themselves is something, something cannot produce nothing, and nothing cannot produce something.

Even an atom, or .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 of an atom is something. Ectoplasm, incorporeal objects, etc. are still something.

Gmr Leon said:

It's not necessarily impossible, I think. We release Leah Stone from a Soul Battery, but her body is not nearby, if it even still exists in a livable state, so we cannot be certain that she could not be resurrected. This is the same for all souls released from the Soul Batteries, thus this is not a valid argument in the area of testable evidence. Unless there is some dialogue to back it up that I am unaware of, this is not a proper example of that case.

While the spirits are within the soul batteries, they cannot be resurrected - we know this via the bloodstone, which channel the souls to the soul batteries. The soul batteries/bloodstone connection is strong enough to prevent a Lich's resurrection even.

After the souls are released, however, is more questionable.

Gmr Leon said:

Undead do not always have souls. Minions raised by Necromancers are still undead, and this can be easily tested through the Monks' Smiting Prayers line of skills, as I recall. The Orrian Undead, while showing characteristics that seem suggestive of having a soul, I would daresay, haven't souls, otherwise I propose they would be similar in nature to the Undead encountered in the Desolation. This is one of the fundamental differences between the Orrian Undead and the Desolate Undead.

On the minion and undead thing - the difference is that a soul is not used, but a necromancer's energy - not is a whole body. On the Orrian/Desolation undead thing, I don't think that is very valid, as with all things Prophecies, there are only five races which even speak: Humans, Dwarves, Centaurs, Forgotten, and Seers. Even the Charr, which we know to be a very cultured race, was shown to be pretty much as primitive as the Grawl. In Eye of the North, the undead which seem to be the remnants of Orrian Undead do show more intelligence than in Prophecies, and thus are not mindless, which usually means they have their own will - and thus, a soul.

Gmr Leon said:

And I more or less entirely disagree with your ideas on the Undead, if this is how you're adapting them to the situation with Zhaitan.

After all, it goes in the face of the Movement of the World:

This isn't like the issue with the Crystal Desert and Desolation being one with the Desolation as a subsection, this is quite clear cut. Basically, you're using your own observations in this area to distinguish the two, when the fact is, they're undead. Undead needn't have souls, that's simply it.

I am not adapting undead to Zhaitan. But you need to remember, the Movement of the World is two things: pre-beta lore (thus changable, and we have seen things changed already, such as Jormag's and Zhaitan's time of rise), and human point of view. To an average human who does not know the difference between a soulless husk of a moving body, and a soul-filled undead, Zhaitan's minions - and in fact any dragon which raises dead bodies as its minions - will seem like the typical undead.

But everything we so far know of the dragons and their abilities counteracts this. Assuming that Zhaitan raises his minions in the same way Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus - at least - do.

Gmr Leon said:

So why, then, do the Orrian Undead not show some indication of individuality amongst themselves? And don't even begin to throw the examples of the ones encountered that don't attack, or the transformed NPCs during Halloween that talk to you. I mean those that are entirely independent, doing their own thing or have their own interests, more or less, and will talk to us.

Firstly, as per above, Prophecies had poor "rival development", so to speak, as nearly no other race had their own structures, or any showing of speaking the "common" language.

And I wasn't going to throw in the Halloween NPCs. However, I will bring up the suspected Orrian undead remnants in Eye of the North. First, there is Jacado the Putrid, then there is Nifling the Chained, and there are the undead seen in Beneath Lion's Arch. All three cases, though few in numbers, all have three things in common:

• They only have the Orrian Undead models.
  
• They act similarly to the Desolation Undead (going under the strongest undead - i.e., forming a series of small groups) - this excludes those right under Kryta.
  
• Finally, their builds mirror the Prophecies undead.

As said, these undead seem to act like the Desolation Undead from what we can tell - wildly roaming (those in Beneath Lion's Arch), or grouping under a stronger undead. Which seem to show more intelligence. If these undead have souls, that would explain why we only see 7 or so souls from Orr in the Realm of Torment. Surely 7 is not an entire nation.

Gmr Leon said:

The point is, I think that the avatars can be used to channel the Gods' energy or power. Thus I think that in the cases we see of them taking in souls, that's the Gods' power being channeled that permits them to do that. However, that's quite uncertain, but I think it's suggested by the avatars' ability to take us to the realms of the Gods.

That power seems to just be the same as that of an Envoy. Like the Envoys and the Reaper(s?), I think the Avatars are just "granted" power. How I think it occurs is, for Grenth specifically, the Reapers are given control over spirits, King Frozenwind is given control over Ice, the Envoys over Resurrection/Mortals/moving souls (not sure what to call their domain over to be honest, it could be that it is the Envoys who deem who is and who isn't resurrected), and the Avatars having domain over all of the domains of the others - but on a slightly smaller scale (i.e., Envoys can do mass resurrection or guiding of souls, Avatars can only do smaller groups). Due to the nature of the Afflicted hinting at a form of undeath, it could be that Envoys have control over that as well - so in essence, a specific control over the soul (Resurrection, undeath, and guiding *and via guiding, movement, as shown by Shiro in Nahpui Quarter end cinematic*).

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

While the spirits are within the soul batteries, they cannot be resurrected - we know this via the bloodstone, which channel the souls to the soul batteries. The soul batteries/bloodstone connection is strong enough to prevent a Lich's resurrection even.

After the souls are released, however, is more questionable.

Clearly a misunderstanding in that area, I was thinking prior to absorption into the Soul Batteries, or even after release as per my example.

Konig Des Todes said:

On the minion and undead thing - the difference is that a soul is not used, but a necromancer's energy - not is a whole body. On the Orrian/Desolation undead thing, I don't think that is very valid, as with all things Prophecies, there are only five races which even speak: Humans, Dwarves, Centaurs, Forgotten, and Seers. Even the Charr, which we know to be a very cultured race, was shown to be pretty much as primitive as the Grawl. In Eye of the North, the undead which seem to be the remnants of Orrian Undead do show more intelligence than in Prophecies, and thus are not mindless, which usually means they have their own will - and thus, a soul.

The lack of attacking on sight in certain areas doesn't seem a remarkable sign of intelligence, I think.

Konig Des Todes said:

I am not adapting undead to Zhaitan. But you need to remember, the Movement of the World is two things: pre-beta lore (thus changable, and we have seen things changed already, such as Jormag's and Zhaitan's time of rise), and human point of view. To an average human who does not know the difference between a soulless husk of a moving body, and a soul-filled undead, Zhaitan's minions - and in fact any dragon which raises dead bodies as its minions - will seem like the typical undead.

But everything we so far know of the dragons and their abilities counteracts this. Assuming that Zhaitan raises his minions in the same way Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus - at least - do.

The Prophecies Manuscripts mention souls remaining around Orr, even after it sunk, thus, if we must go to your little soul-injection idea for them to be classified as undead, then who is to say Zhaitan couldn't twist the souls and force them into the bodies? Besides that, what of the Corsairs? Surely they weren't all dead whenever he twisted them into his undead armada, so you can't use your little dead bodies as minions or what have you to go around the possibility, if not fact, of its forces being undead. And since it calls them undead, then I doubt it simply corrupted them, so they were either all dead after its rise, or killed and raised as undead.

Konig Des Todes said:

However, I will bring up the suspected Orrian undead remnants in Eye of the North. First, there is Jacado the Putrid, then there is Nifling the Chained, and there are the undead seen in Beneath Lion's Arch. All three cases, though few in numbers, all have three things in common:

• They only have the Orrian Undead models.
  
• They act similarly to the Desolation Undead (going under the strongest undead - i.e., forming a series of small groups) - this excludes those right under Kryta.
  
• Finally, their builds mirror the Prophecies undead.

As said, these undead seem to act like the Desolation Undead from what we can tell - wildly roaming (those in Beneath Lion's Arch), or grouping under a stronger undead. Which seem to show more intelligence. If these undead have souls, that would explain why we only see 7 or so souls from Orr in the Realm of Torment. Surely 7 is not an entire nation.

We're thinking of two different types of undead here, then. I'm referring to the undead we can actually positively interact with in the Desolation, not the "wild" ones, so to speak. At least in the Desolate Undead's case we could positively interact with the leaders in certain quests.

Konig Des Todes said:

That power seems to just be the same as that of an Envoy. Like the Envoys and the Reaper(s?), I think the Avatars are just "granted" power. How I think it occurs is, for Grenth specifically, the Reapers are given control over spirits, King Frozenwind is given control over Ice, the Envoys over Resurrection/Mortals/moving souls (not sure what to call their domain over to be honest, it could be that it is the Envoys who deem who is and who isn't resurrected), and the Avatars having domain over all of the domains of the others - but on a slightly smaller scale (i.e., Envoys can do mass resurrection or guiding of souls, Avatars can only do smaller groups). Due to the nature of the Afflicted hinting at a form of undeath, it could be that Envoys have control over that as well - so in essence, a specific control over the soul (Resurrection, undeath, and guiding *and via guiding, movement, as shown by Shiro in Nahpui Quarter end cinematic*).

I'm pretty sure the Avatars are just the Gods little plaything to interact with mortals. Hence their usage in the Gate of Madness mission's ending, taking Ural Highstone's soul, and guiding us into the Gods' realms when the Gods need help.

[Konig Des Todes]

Gmr Leon said:

The lack of attacking on sight in certain areas doesn't seem a remarkable sign of intelligence, I think.

Never did I mean those in Bloodstone Cave. There are more Orrian Undead than just there, mind you. Just because you're not interested in the other undead, doesn't mean they are worthless to look into.

Gmr Leon said:

The Prophecies Manuscripts mention souls remaining around Orr, even after it sunk, thus, if we must go to your little soul-injection idea for them to be classified as undead, then who is to say Zhaitan couldn't twist the souls and force them into the bodies? Besides that, what of the Corsairs? Surely they weren't all dead whenever he twisted them into his undead armada, so you can't use your little dead bodies as minions or what have you to go around the possibility, if not fact, of its forces being undead. And since it calls them undead, then I doubt it simply corrupted them, so they were either all dead after its rise, or killed and raised as undead.

On the manuscripts, I always took that as undead:

Kingdom of Orr said:

All that remains of Orr are the wandering dead - those souls unable to rest in the shadow of this great disaster

It seems to me that wandering dead is always a phrased used for undead, not spirits. That line along with:

The Undead said:

Many believe that they are the remnants of Orr, those lost souls who were so disturbed by the destruction of their home in the Cataclysm that they refuse to pass into the next life.

This says souls, but clearly means undead.

For the Corsairs, any of them living would be like Svanir and the Modniir Centaurs we see concept art for. They would be living beings twisted. Not undead.

For Zhaitan twisting a soul, we have nothing which state they can twist incorporeal things.

Gmr Leon said:

We're thinking of two different types of undead here, then. I'm referring to the undead we can actually positively interact with in the Desolation, not the "wild" ones, so to speak. At least in the Desolate Undead's case we could positively interact with the leaders in certain quests.

And in Heart of the Shiverpeaks, the undead don't attack until their leader is aggroed - possibly a strategy to kill as many as possible? This is also seen in Varajar Fells with Nifling the Chained - the undead are peaceful until the boss is aggroed (and pops up), where then the entire undead group would be able to swarm the player. Also, from the Prophecies Manuscripts to defend the intelligence of the undead:

The Undead said:

Except for the obvious differences (lack of skin, hair, a working circulatory system, and so on) the undead army are very much like any living human army. They have military ranks, a chain of command, and a set of marching orders.

To have these things denote intelligence, and one man, no matter how smart, could not control an entire army without it having a hivelike mind. Generals under Khilbron would be needed, just as in reality. And if they had no intelligence, what would be the purpose of military ranks and a chain of command? None that I can think of.

Gmr Leon said:

I'm pretty sure the Avatars are just the Gods little plaything to interact with mortals. Hence their usage in the Gate of Madness mission's ending, taking Ural Highstone's soul, and guiding us into the Gods' realms when the Gods need help.

They do their job, as the others do theirs. ;)

[Thalador]

Well, you have a nice arguement here, and it gave me back the pleasure to write again. Of course, I couldn't resist not expressing my thoughts on this area.

First, I'd like to tell you how do I view the undead. I think everything that have been reanimated from the dead are undead. Be it minion, zombie, skeleton, mummy or ghost. The question is, why do they return as living corpses? After all, this reanimation is similar to ressurection, but with the main difference that the body doesn't show any life sign. I'll quote the most important parts from the manuscripts:

Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts said:

Except for the obvious differences (lack of skin, hair, a working circulatory system, and so on) the undead army are very much like any living human army. They have military ranks, a chain of command, and a set of marching orders. The bulk of the army is made up of once-living humans...

- snip -

Many believe that they are the remnants of Orr, those lost souls who were so disturbed by the destruction of their home in the Cataclysm that they refuse to pass into the next life. Others believe there is a more sinister force motivating these creatures, a malevolent being who has raised the resting dead to do his bidding. Some even say this mysterious leader is a powerful lich lord who rules them all from behind the front lines. ...

I doubt that the main factor would be the damage of the body. Instead I think it is the soul. It looks like that there are two types of death. One, when the soul is willing to return to the mortal body and the holy energies(?) heal the deadly wounds of the body so the soul could return. The second is, when the soul tries to depart for the Underworld. Now, this is the most interesting part. This second type of death could mean two possibilities: these deaths are pre-determined and thus the spirit must leave the mortal life, and/or the way how these creatures were killed. For example, Scout Ahtok was "just" shot by a Kournan bombardment and we couldn't ressurect him (of course, we can't ressurect NPCs, although players can be ressurected after being killed in such way). Why? In my opinion because of Abaddon's taint. (I know that this is weird, but our players don't actually die while we are fighting our way through Elona.) Otherwise, we would've joined Ahtok in the RoT as well.) I'll list the things that can lead to the point from where the creature can not be ressurected:

• Corrupted(?) by a fallen(?) god. (The gods must send these souls to a special place, because if not, then the spirits will work as "catalyzers"/"batteries" - or what you want - for Nightfall. I'm not 100% sure about this, but it would be logical.)
  
  
  
• The soul is taken by a god or by the god's avatar. See the case of poor Ural Highstone.
  
  
  
• The death of the creature was pre-determined.
  
  
  
• The creature was killed in a special way. I can think of special way here, such as being killed by undead or by a very unique magic (Spectral Agony, perhaps).
  
  
  
• The soul has lost the will to live again, or the opposite: he/she can't be ressurected. Pre-determination (in this case the spirit wants to live so much that it won't leave the mortal realms/worlds, however, ressurection would still not work) or the lack of ressurection -> the time elapses within he/she could've returned to the mortal life.

If the deceased (the corpse, mainly) fits any of the above requirements, then - I think - it can only return to "life" in one way: reanimation into an undead being.

Now, I'm not sure if the spirit can reanimate his/her own corpse into an undead (+ the soul re-enters the body). Perhaps, if it was so powerful. However, let's focus on the more common way: a Necromancer, Lich (or Elder Dragon) reanimates the corpse. If the spirit has already passed on to the afterlife (or taken by a god's avatar), then the Necromancer (I'll just call the "reanimator" that for the sake of simplicity) can either do two things:

• Summoning an (evil(?)) spirit and forcing it into the corpse. Cases: 1. , 2. , 3. , 5. (first part only) --- Or in case 4. and 5. (second part only) the Necromancer can use the soul of the body for the reanimation. Either turning only the spirit into a ghost (more precisely into a phantom or spectre) or forcing back the soul into the body.
  
  
  
• In the case of minions and Zhaitan's undeads (they are special, and I mostly agree with Konig on this) the Necromancer doesn't even use souls. It uses only its power to reanimate the corpse and bind to its will. Minions are strange, though. They are undead but still degenerate to a second death. And the most interesting is, that they are created by magic as well which could protect them from such end. (I hate those horror films and books where a virus reanimates the dead. It makes no sense, because the corpse would rot to the point from where it can't move, i.e. lost its muscles, sinew and joints, because there's no circulatory system -> no blood being pumped -> no oxygen for the body -> the anaerobic bacterias would consume it in a matter of time. Pathetic...)

And the Orrian Undead do have souls. They didn't fall apart (in both meanings) after the Lich Lord had died. Konig has already pointed out this. What's more, the Desolation Undead (only those who are loyal to Joko) interact with us because we are allies of their master, not his enemies. The other Desolation Undeads attack us because they perceive us as enemies (rightfully). The same applies to the Orrian Undead.

The other interesting beings are Zhaitan's undead. They fit the requirements but they don't have souls, and yet they seem to act willingly/or as a single creature ;). Again, I think Konig is right about the idea that there's another „hive-mind creature” similar to the Great Destoryer but this time it's Zhaitan's.

Phew... this was long. I'm sure I forgot something but I hope this is enough for now.

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

I think everything that have been reanimated from the dead are undead. Be it minion, zombie, skeleton, mummy or ghost.

Ghosts are just dead, they are not reanimated, and if they are undead, then there is no dead. Ghosts=Souls=Spirits; all the same, just different looks.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

I'll list the things that can lead to the point from where the creature can not be ressurected:

• Corrupted(?) by a fallen(?) god. (The gods must send these souls to a special place, because if not, then the spirits will work as "catalyzers"/"batteries" - or what you want - for Nightfall. I'm not 100% sure about this, but it would be logical.)
  
• The soul is taken by a god or by the god's avatar. See the case of poor Ural Highstone.
  
• The death of the creature was pre-determined.
  
• The creature was killed in a special way. I can think of special way here, such as being killed by undead or by a very unique magic (Spectral Agony, perhaps).
  
• The soul has lost the will to live again, or the opposite: he/she can't be ressurected. Pre-determination (in this case the spirit wants to live so much that it won't leave the mortal realms/worlds, however, ressurection would still not work) or the lack of ressurection -> the time elapses within he/she could've returned to the mortal life.

Can you explain how pre-determination would affect the soul? As far as we know in GW, there is no such thing, but how would the fact that one is fated to die prevent it? Usually in the cases of pre-determination, it is an event which must happen. In other words, pre-determination is never a direct cause, but an explanation for why it is inevitable.

And you forgot the prevention of the soul being able to re-enter the body. Such cases would be at least the soul batteries, and possibly entering another realm (which you had), and being devoured (by demons or something else which eats souls like Kehphet).

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Minions are strange, though. They are undead but still degenerate to a second death. And the most interesting is, that they are created by magic as well which could protect them from such end.

Minions are just shambles of flesh and bone, so after creation they'd be falling apart - this could explain the degeneration (which would be a game mechanic, while the lore is it falling apart). I also don't think they have souls, but are animated through a portion of the summoner's energy. That energy would start to decapitate as well, thus meaning the minion would run out of energy to move and "live". Also the minions go rampant - much like the destroyers are claimed to - after the summoner's death, which further supports those being mindless.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Again, I think Konig is right about the idea that there's another „hive-mind creature” similar to the Great Destoryer but this time it's Zhaitan's.

There may be a general of Zhaitan as well, which he creates to be a "sub-hive-mind" so to speak. What I think is the case with the dragons and their minions is that the grunts are controlled by the next higher up rank, which is controlled by the next higher up, and so on until the dragon. Take out the dragon, the second to highest rank takes control. Some of the highest ranks have their own personality (perhaps?), such as the Great Destroyer, but the lower down the chain one goes, the less of a personality and a mind they have.

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

Ghosts are just dead, they are not reanimated, and if they are undead, then there is no dead. Ghosts=Souls=Spirits; all the same, just different looks.

Not exactly. The ghosts I was speaking about are phantoms and wraiths. Many Orrian turned into a phantom or wraith and still considered part of the Orrian (Undead) Army. See Gaiza Deadeye, for example. I think they were strong enough to materialize somehow, but due to one of the requirements, it could only return as an "undead" ghost.

The ghosts we see and are friendly (Lady Althea, for example) are chained to this realm/world because they have some unfinished business there.

Konig Des Todes said:

Minions are just shambles of flesh and bone, so after creation they'd be falling apart - this could explain the degeneration (which would be a game mechanic, while the lore is it falling apart). I also don't think they have souls, but are animated through a portion of the summoner's energy. That energy would start to decapitate as well, thus meaning the minion would run out of energy to move and "live". Also the minions go rampant - much like the destroyers are claimed to - after the summoner's death, which further supports those being mindless.

I said almost the same thing:

Me said:

In the case of minions and Zhaitan's undeads (they are special, and I mostly agree with Konig on this) the Necromancer doesn't even use souls. It uses only its power to reanimate the corpse and bind to its will. Minions are strange, though.

But thanks for explaining why do minions "die".

Konig Des Todes said:

Can you explain how pre-determination would affect the soul? As far as we know in GW, there is no such thing, but how would the fact that one is fated to die prevent it? Usually in the cases of pre-determination, it is an event which must happen. In other words, pre-determination is never a direct cause, but an explanation for why it is inevitable.

So, someone dies in the battle. The person's soul would want to return via ressurection to fight and live on, but due to the flow of the Mists/Universe* - which already determined the person's fate - he/she must pass on and enter his/her state in the afterlife. Thus, it can not return to the mortal life. (Much like the bloodstone prevents wielding all four schools of magic at the same time, something or someone prevents the return of the soul.)

I love this. While I'm writing more and more ideas come to my mind.

It is said that Dhuum didn't tolerate the undead and the ressurection. You've already brought up two possibilities for the undead during those times. Either reanimation wasn't available, or Dhuum hunted down and utterly destroyed the undead and the Necromancer who had reanimated the dead. But what about the ressurection? What if Dhuum didn't allow and "made it unavailable"? After all, if the soul returned to its body and it was living again, then he couldn't just go there and kill it personally. Last time an Envoy was toying with spirits, the Universe was nearly tipped out of its balance. Of course, perhaps it's one of the reasons why he was overthrown, but the dilemma still stands: perhaps ressurection wasn't allowed/disabled -> the spirit couldn't return even if it wanted -> a weaker version of pre-determination.

Back to pre-determination. Why not? There are six gods and such thing comes along with god-like beings. And if it isn't the gods, then it is the Mists (this idea seems to fit much better). Why?

The Mists said:

They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future.

*Following this logic it could be highly possible that the Mists can prevent the ressurection of the creature, as they had other plans for its soul. Or in another form: the future holds something else than to let it being ressurected.

Konig Des Todes said:

And you forgot the prevention of the soul being able to re-enter the body. Such cases would be at least the soul batteries, and possibly entering another realm (which you had), and being devoured (by demons or something else which eats souls like Kehphet).

True, although I didn't forget it because you've already discussed it. In a better interpretation: I made the mistake that I haven't implemented it. :p

And if such thing happens, then the Necromancer has three choice:

1.) Frees the spirit and force it back to the body even if wants to pass on.

2.) Summons another spirit and forces it into the body.

3.) Creates a minion from the corpse.

(Another choice could be - if it works - that the Necromancer frees the soul and turns it into a wraith/phantom.)

[Sirius]

It's kind of strange how the concept of "if a character dies during a normal battle they can be resurrected, otherwise they're just dead Jim" is so prevalent in computer RPGs that people kind of expect it now. I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or not.

Then there's the NPC thing. Logically it just seems strange that the same spell that works for mending Alesia's fatal wounds doesn't work on Prince Rurik - thankfully EotN did away with that (sort of, anyway).

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Not exactly. The ghosts I was speaking about are phantoms and wraiths. Many Orrian turned into a phantom or wraith and still considered part of the Orrian (Undead) Army. See Gaiza Deadeye, for example. I think they were strong enough to materialize somehow, but due to one of the requirements, it could only return as an "undead" ghost.

The ghosts we see and are friendly (Lady Althea, for example) are chained to this realm/world because they have some unfinished business there.

All spirits, good or bad, that are in our realm are "chained" in one way or another. Those in the Crystal Desert, for instance, deal with Turai not reaching Ascension and/or losing loved ones that they wish to see again.

And I think this is enough to say your ghosts are spirits - though I do believe there are other locations in which ghosts and spirits are interchangeable (that is, dialogue says one, name says another). The terms phantoms and wraiths are usually used for "evil spirits", while ghosts is used for spirits which haunt a place. But in reality, they are all just spirits (and thus not dead). These fellows are only different things in term of game mechanics.

There shouldn't be any special thing needed to create a phantom or wraith. It seems to me that spirits can change their shape, to create things such as the "Formless Spirits" seen in various places - such as the River of Souls or coming out of the open Door of Komalie. Changing to look like a reaper or something else shouldn't be a big deal if one can change into a form that allows them to easily float, go through nearly everything (the mursaat bridges seem to be an exception), and prevent being targeted - I think this "formless" kind of spirit would be the "shadow form" which is mentioned in the Odran entry in the Prophecies Manuscripts.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

I said almost the same thing:

But thanks for explaining why do minions "die".

I was just explaining in full context to avoid confusion (as when I don't, that seems to bring questions by others).

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

So, someone dies in the battle. The person's soul would want to return via ressurection to fight and live on, but due to the flow of the Mists/Universe* - which already determined the person's fate - he/she must pass on and enter his/her state in the afterlife. Thus, it can not return to the mortal life. (Much like the bloodstone prevents wielding all four schools of magic at the same time, something or someone prevents the return of the soul.)

...

Why not? There are six gods and such thing comes along with god-like beings. And if it isn't the gods, then it is the Mists (this idea seems to fit much better). Why?

Following this logic it could be highly possible that the Mists can prevent the ressurection of the creature, as they had other plans for its soul. Or in another form: the future holds something else than to let it being ressurected.

You speak of the Mists as though it is sentient. But how would the spirit be prevented. "It just is" doesn't cut it in logic, there needs to be a reason. If we just go by "it just is" then I can say that resurrection is even possible because "it just is" with no reason for it.

Might as well say "it is magic anything is possible" or "its a game, anything can be done". That would make for very boring lore, and illogical lore at that.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

It is said that Dhuum didn't tolerate the undead and the ressurection. You've already brought up two possibilities for the undead during those times. Either reanimation wasn't available, or Dhuum hunted down and utterly destroyed the undead and the Necromancer who had reanimated the dead. But what about the ressurection? What if Dhuum didn't allow and "made it unavailable"? After all, if the soul returned to its body and it was living again, then he couldn't just go there and kill it personally. Last time an Envoy was toying with spirits, the Universe was nearly tipped out of its balance. Of course, perhaps it's one of the reasons why he was overthrown, but the dilemma still stands: perhaps ressurection wasn't allowed/disabled -> the spirit couldn't return even if it wanted -> a weaker version of pre-determination.

What case did I say in which there are undead in Dhuum's reign? I said none. Zoldark is the closest possibility (we don't know of Zhaitan was undead prior to the Cataclysm - if he is undead now and not just called such due to his minions looking like undead), but it isn't known if he existed prior to Grenth.

And by your "weaker version of pre-determination", that is even the case now in the game, and in reality. Everything must die eventually.

But what is interesting about Dhuum, is his elite minions.

[Biz]

There were some points inhere that should be addressed, that is "something out of nothing"...

Basicly idea is that Energy = Mass * C² , just ignore the fact that you need insane amount of energy to to create tiniest amount of matter, you would need far less to just rearrange something that is already there, make a new heart out lobbed off head nearby for instance... so

"Nothing" is not nothing, it is energy/mana/adrenaline/Signet power? =P, or source of power Changed into something.

As far as Laws of phycics are concerned making new stuff out of other stuff is completely OK, and its not just making Flesh out of Flesh, you can make flesh out of Rock/dust/water/Air what ever if you had enough energy to waste on it, it would be Magical and very impractical but it wont be against laws of physics.

[Konig Des Todes]

I assume that is pointed at me when I said you cannot make something out of nothing? In which case, what your saying is what I said in the thread I linked. :P You'd just be changing the molecules and re-arranging the atoms to turn something like air into flesh. Which apparently doing that creates a blue glow (according to the beta stories).

In short, I concur.

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

You speak of the Mists as though it is sentient. But how would the spirit be prevented. "It just is" doesn't cut it in logic, there needs to be a reason. If we just go by "it just is" then I can say that resurrection is even possible because "it just is" with no reason for it.

And who says that it's not sentient? You don't see it, my friend. The Mists bind everything together. It would seem that it "knows" the future. We had a similar discussion about fate, where I quoted from Stargate: "The future is pre-determined by the characters who shape it." By "knowing" the characters it can "know" the future. And if that particular soul is needed for a much larger equation or plan, then it is "able to stop" that creature's resurrection.

However, I have another idea. If it "knows" the characters, then it "knows" what decisions they'll make, even after their death. Whether they will pass on or stay there either to be resurrected or to complete their unfinished business/matter/problem, but the Mists "know" all these things. What if the pre-determination part is an illusion, so that the insistent spirit will stay there, and in a fit of rage it might materialize and a wraith/phantom/ghost would be born, which will have a hand in forming the future. This way, it's not pre-determination, but instead manipulation, so to speak.

A man who doesn't accept and believe in the infinity - like you - should not bother with solving it's mysteries...

Konig Des Todes said:

What case did I say in which there are undead in Dhuum's reign? I said none. Zoldark is the closest possibility (we don't know of Zhaitan was undead prior to the Cataclysm - if he is undead now and not just called such due to his minions looking like undead), but it isn't known if he existed prior to Grenth.

And by your "weaker version of pre-determination", that is even the case now in the game, and in reality. Everything must die eventually.

But what is interesting about Dhuum, is his elite minions.

You should redesign that poetic question, because it is rather incomprehensible. Though, I won't check it now, but please quote that part in your next post where you said that.

Er... you can't know that. No one knows that. It was a very bold statement. We know too little about GW's and our universe to say that "everything dies once.

Regarding the Skeletons. I think their form is only to mock the undead. In my opinion they are constructs (spirits and/or demons forced into the remnants of (pure speculation comes here) Dhuum's former enemies, although, those bones could be the remains of random dead).

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

And who says that it's not sentient? You don't see it, my friend. The Mists bind everything together. It would seem that it "knows" the future.

Nothing says it is, and isn't sentient. It doesn't need to be sentient to act. And nothing says it knows the future - just it binds the future to the past and present. But this can be said for one's memories as well, even time or just one's own existence can bind the past present and future together. I don't think that line can be meant literally, but figuratively - that is, it keeps order in the universe. And if literally, I take it as the Mists prevents exact events from re-occuring, i.e., a kingdom falls, then the "same" kingdom rises and goes through the same history - or to be more specific: half of the theory in this thread. In short: If literal, that line seems to me to symbolize that the Mists prevents existence from being a cycle.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

We had a similar discussion about fate, where I quoted from Stargate: "The future is pre-determined by the characters who shape it." By "knowing" the characters it can "know" the future. And if that particular soul is needed for a much larger equation or plan, then it is "able to stop" that creature's resurrection.

Then the Mists must have an IQ of over 9,000 (had to put in that reference, dunno why, just had to) because to be able to know every being in existence to the point of knowing what exact choices the creatures will take is one hell of a feat. Near impossible, if not so.

Plus, you didn't answer my question: how does the Mists prevent the resurrection?

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

However, I have another idea. If it "knows" the characters, then it "knows" what decisions they'll make, even after their death. Whether they will pass on or stay there either to be resurrected or to complete their unfinished business/matter/problem, but the Mists "know" all these things. What if the pre-determination part is an illusion, so that the insistent spirit will stay there, and in a fit of rage it might materialize and a wraith/phantom/ghost would be born, which will have a hand in forming the future. This way, it's not pre-determination, but instead manipulation, so to speak.

But in this case... what is the Mists even doing aside from observing?

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

A man who doesn't accept and believe in the infinity - like you - should not bother with solving it's mysteries...

I don't believe in the infinity of space. There is a fine line between infinite space and other kinds of "infnities" - such as infinite time. In this case, your actually not speaking in an infinite (that I can see), but instead all knowledge - which is impossible as knowledge is infinite, and having such would be impossible, though nearly possible. The closest one can get is all knowledge of the past and present, and all possibilities of the future - which is what your saying.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

You should redesign that poetic question, because it is rather incomprehensible. Though, I won't check it now, but please quote that part in your next post where you said that.

The question was "Where did I bring up undead that existed during Dhuum's reign?" I think I was a little out of it for a tiny bit when I wrote the question. As for Zoldark:

Konig Des Todes said:

Gmr Leon said:

Either way we look at it, Grenth's "permitting" undead has very interesting implications, and suggests to me that it is far from completely true, as we have seen with information about the Gods since the beginning. Especially considering this places a possible restriction to when Zoldark came into being, and when his civilization (assuming the ruins he inhabits are of his civilization) existed.

I don't really see the issue here, to be honest. The Depths predate humanity - the (current, at least) gods predate humanity, but not by much - so Zoldark could have been one of the first liches under Grenth's reign. Which would explain why he is different from the other two - far older.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Er... you can't know that. No one knows that. It was a very bold statement. We know too little about GW's and our universe to say that "everything dies once.

I didn't say everything dies once, I said everything dies. Even the gods die. The only thing(s) that cannot die are not even beings: Time and Existence. The Mists might be the one thing which is a being (we don't even know if it is a being!) that cannot die.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Regarding the Skeletons. I think their form is only to mock the undead. In my opinion they are constructs (spirits and/or demons forced into the remnants of (pure speculation comes here) Dhuum's former enemies, although, those bones could be the remains of random dead).

Wouldn't a construct who inhabits a dead body be the same as an undead though? And wouldn't a construct - if speaking in the term of Shiro's constructs and not in the real definition - technically be the same as undead, just not in a body, thus Dhuum should be equally hateful towards them as well?

There are two things I can think of: They are not really undead, just mimicing the dead (but they were never alive?), or Dhuum is hypocritical and hates all undead but his own.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

Never did I mean those in Bloodstone Cave. There are more Orrian Undead than just there, mind you. Just because you're not interested in the other undead, doesn't mean they are worthless to look into.

It's not a lack of interest, it's the same behavior in each case that defeats the purpose of looking into it, as I wasn't just considering those in the Bloodstone Caves, I was very much so considering the other undead that you would bring up. Their behavior is all very much alike. Remain friendly until you get into a certain range of a particular spot or leader, and they attack. It's a very basic ambush tactic, and even spiders and raptors show these abilities. We don't even really know why they're doing that. If it's for the traditional man-eating zombie idea in modern society, then they're no better than the aforementioned spiders in intelligence.

Previously, the Orrian Undead were being driven by the Lich, and we were seen as part of the normal Krytan village-populous and later White Mantle populous, thus we were attacked with reason. After this, why would they continue attacking us? If they're anything like the Desolate Undead, I would think they'd have some memory of our working with them in the past. Why then, after the Lich's death, do they resume an aggressive nature towards us? Towards everything else, it makes sense, I suppose, but towards those of us who worked alongside their leader? Given, I want to say the majority of them appear friendly until you get within a certain distance, but this still begs the question of why, and what their new purpose is, and if there is a purpose.

Konig Des Todes said:

For the Corsairs, any of them living would be like Svanir and the Modniir Centaurs we see concept art for. They would be living beings twisted. Not undead.

For Zhaitan twisting a soul, we have nothing which state they can twist incorporeal things.

It says they're undead in the Movement of the World, and until we can disprove this, they are undead. There is no legitimate argument here. They are undead, just because they are likely similar in nature to the undead controlled by Zoldark does not make them any less undead. Not only that, but, if we kill Zhaitan, or Zhaitan's general, whichever, and they remain, then they are of a similar nature to the Orrian Undead.

Although in the case of killing Zhaitan, we never killed Primordus, so killing the actual source may result in a different conclusion. Sort of like what may be the case if we..Now that's an interesting thought I'll reserve for later. :surprised:

As to Zhaitan twisting a soul, we have no evidence to the contrary either, and, in the case of Svanir, we may have a positive example of Jormag affecting a soul. If this is the case, due to the Elder Dragon's remarkable similarity with one another, it may be a capability they all share. Not to mention if Zhaitan holds some dominion over death, as seems highly suggested.

Konig Des Todes said:

To have these things denote intelligence, and one man, no matter how smart, could not control an entire army without it having a hivelike mind. Generals under Khilbron would be needed, just as in reality. And if they had no intelligence, what would be the purpose of military ranks and a chain of command? None that I can think of.

But he wasn't exactly a man anymore, now was he? :p Khilbron pushed the entire army, sure, he had generals, but he pushed them all in one direction. I see it as entirely possible that he held a divided hive-mind. That is to say, he selected generals, connected their minds to his, commanded them, and they commanded the others. If it wasn't for my certainty that killing the leaders that when approached cause the entire group to attack you makes the rest die, I'd say the leaders themselves hold a sort of mini-hive-mind for their group/troop/whathaveyou.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

And the Orrian Undead do have souls. They didn't fall apart (in both meanings) after the Lich Lord had died. Konig has already pointed out this. What's more, the Desolation Undead (only those who are loyal to Joko) interact with us because we are allies of their master, not his enemies. The other Desolation Undeads attack us because they perceive us as enemies (rightfully). The same applies to the Orrian Undead.

So the Undead raised by Oberan way back in Old Ascalon had souls too? I simply do not see having a soul as being the only possibility for the Undead to not fall apart.

Why, if this is the case, are we attacked by the Undead in the Catacombs of Ascalon? We don't see any particular master or driving force, and I have no real idea, aside from grave robbing or intrusion, for them to perceive us as being enemies. In fact, these should consider us allies, as we're training to defend their homeland, and if Oberan is behind them, and he is an ally, they should be our allies as well.

Now, you could say that this fellow is the one managing them, but the question remains, if he is an Ascalonian, possibly a soldier, then why would he not recognize trainees of his fellow countrymen?

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

The other interesting beings are Zhaitan's undead. They fit the requirements but they don't have souls, and yet they seem to act willingly/or as a single creature ;). Again, I think Konig is right about the idea that there's another "hive-mind creature” similar to the Great Destoryer but this time it's Zhaitan's.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Zhaitan's undead do not have souls. This is an entirely lackluster assumption based off of the Elder Dragons aforementioned striking similarities to one another. Zhaitan is an extremely unique case in comparison, as it awakened in a site of mass death and destruction already, whereas all the other Elder Dragons awakened in sites that weren't destroyed and covered in the dead.

[Konig Des Todes]

Gmr Leon said:

Their behavior is all very much alike. Remain friendly until you get into a certain range of a particular spot or leader, and they attack. It's a very basic ambush tactic, and even spiders and raptors show these abilities. We don't even really know why they're doing that. If it's for the traditional man-eating zombie idea in modern society, then they're no better than the aforementioned spiders in intelligence.

Tactics=minds=souls.

To be more precise, the mind and the soul are constantly listed to be one in the same, and when they are not, both are needed for a truly functional being. If one has tactics, as you point out even, then there must be a mind involved, and if there is a mind involved, the odds are highly likely - if not absolute - that there is a soul as well.

Khilbron had a soul, so why wouldn't the other undead? We see literal souls (Phantoms and Wraiths) in the Orrian army, so why couldn't there be souls within the undead?

Gmr Leon said:

Previously, the Orrian Undead were being driven by the Lich, and we were seen as part of the normal Krytan village-populous and later White Mantle populous, thus we were attacked with reason. After this, why would they continue attacking us? If they're anything like the Desolate Undead, I would think they'd have some memory of our working with them in the past. Why then, after the Lich's death, do they resume an aggressive nature towards us? Towards everything else, it makes sense, I suppose, but towards those of us who worked alongside their leader? Given, I want to say the majority of them appear friendly until you get within a certain distance, but this still begs the question of why, and what their new purpose is, and if there is a purpose.

All undead we fight we kill though (supposedly), and why not? Should they just stay allied the whole time? Then they wouldn't be hostile. Them showing tactics show that they are more than a simple mindless undead.

And they are not connected to the Lich, obviously, as a minion who is known to be soulless is to a Necromancer, thus no hive-like mind. Unless your meaning "Khilbron over-rided their minds". But that would go against your argument.

Oh, and we didn't work alongside their leader, we were manipulated by their leader - we were always their enemies. And usually enemies fight each other.

Gmr Leon said:

It says they're undead in the Movement of the World, and until we can disprove this, they are undead. There is no legitimate argument here.

The Movement of the World was written from a human's point of view who shows no knowledge of how the Elder Dragons' powers work. Thus, it would be seen as undead instead of simply an animated corpse.

In a way, they would be undead, as they are living corpses. A completely different kind of undead, one not needing souls and one that only an Elder Dragon - any elder dragon - can create.

Gmr Leon said:

They are undead, just because they are likely similar in nature to the undead controlled by Zoldark does not make them any less undead. Not only that, but, if we kill Zhaitan, or Zhaitan's general, whichever, and they remain, then they are of a similar nature to the Orrian Undead.

I didn't say they were similar to Zoldark's minions. Zoldark's minions are undead, an in between of minions and other undead - tied to Zoldark himself. Zhaitan's minions - whether literal undead or not.

Gmr Leon said:

But he wasn't exactly a man anymore, now was he? :p Khilbron pushed the entire army, sure, he had generals, but he pushed them all in one direction. I see it as entirely possible that he held a divided hive-mind. That is to say, he selected generals, connected their minds to his, commanded them, and they commanded the others. If it wasn't for my certainty that killing the leaders that when approached cause the entire group to attack you makes the rest die, I'd say the leaders themselves hold a sort of mini-hive-mind for their group/troop/whathaveyou.

If this was the case, then the undead would be mindless, and as even you point out, they are not. Why? They use tactics.

Gmr Leon said:

So the Undead raised by Oberan way back in Old Ascalon had souls too? I simply do not see having a soul as being the only possibility for the Undead to not fall apart.

Whose to say those undead created by Oberan don't have souls?

Gmr Leon said:

Why, if this is the case, are we attacked by the Undead in the Catacombs of Ascalon? We don't see any particular master or driving force, and I have no real idea, aside from grave robbing or intrusion, for them to perceive us as being enemies. In fact, these should consider us allies, as we're training to defend their homeland, and if Oberan is behind them, and he is an ally, they should be our allies as well.

Oberan is behind them. In the quest Charr in the Catacombs, he calls those undead his. He himself may be an ally, but he hates people who come from "the light" - i.e., the surface. He has a distaste for people other than himself. So he'd want to try to keep people away.

Gmr Leon said:

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Zhaitan's undead do not have souls. This is an entirely lackluster assumption based off of the Elder Dragons aforementioned striking similarities to one another. Zhaitan is an extremely unique case in comparison, as it awakened in a site of mass death and destruction already, whereas all the other Elder Dragons awakened in sites that weren't destroyed and covered in the dead.

And what do you think would be the case if the other elder dragons, like Kralkatorrik who flies into a desert, is around a bunch of dead bodies? I think it would result in another kind of undead-like creatures.

[Gmr Leon]

Your entire argument is based on the Undead being created via the forcing in of a soul. Necromancer's minions are undead, and as far as we know, souls are not forced into them. Why then, would it be necessary for Zhaitan's forces to not be undead simply because of what we read in the accounts of the other Elder Dragons in the Movement of the World? Not to mention, if we can't rely on the accounts in regards to Zhaitan, why should we rely on them in relation to any of the other Elder Dragons, excepting Primordus due to our own observations?

Besides that, using Vizier Khilbron as an example for the other Undead having souls is invalid as he's a Lich. Liches, by their very nature, would be an exception to the rule, not a representative of the rule. Also, the tactics=minds argument isn't a firm basis to work with, as minds still remain quite unclear. Under this basis, raptors would have had minds, and some modern spiders and other species would have minds. Now, I'm not about to be so arrogant as to say they don't, but you should be able to see what I'm getting at here.

As to the Phantom and Wraith argument, we don't even know how they work, or if, disregarding their drops, whether they aren't just native undead specimens taken control of by Khilbron. Whatever the case, this is the whole point I've been trying to get through your head:

Konig Des Todes said:

In a way, they would be undead, as they are living corpses. A completely different kind of undead, one not needing souls and one that only an Elder Dragon - any elder dragon - can create.

They. Are. Undead. It doesn't matter if they're a different kind, they're still undead. Undead, as far as I'm concerned, are pretty much close to how Thalador described. An animated corpse, or parts of a corpse. That's more or less undead to me. If the soul happens to be trapped within the corpse, to rot away with it, and just happens to be animated, it's undead. If the soul remains somewhat connected to the corpse, and the body cannot be sufficiently restored through basic resurrection, then the "resurrection" would be reanimation.

As long as the soul is contained within, or connected to, the corpse, it is a part of the corpse, as far as I'm concerned. Nevertheless, my view is not invalidated by Zhaitan's method, as even without a soul, they would still be animated corpses.

Essentially, though, I would say that any powerful being could "create" the type of undead you're suggesting, as I'd even say that Necromancer's minions are of the same type. The difference being, the Elder Dragons have enough energy to maintain their forms without degeneration. It's entirely possible that the only reason Necromancers' minions appear as they do, and exist as they do, is due to a lack of sufficient energy to animate the entire corpse. This would be the only reason that a soul would be necessary for a human, Lich or otherwise, to animate a corpse without having to maintain it. In other words, a soul is only a human necessity for animation of undead that do not require maintenance, as any entity powerful enough does not require it whatsoever.

It is only not a human necessity when we see a human capable of animating a corpse completely without it, and without requiring upkeep.

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

Nothing says it is, and isn't sentient. It doesn't need to be sentient to act. And nothing says it knows the future - just it binds the future to the past and present. But this can be said for one's memories as well, even time or just one's own existence can bind the past present and future together. I don't think that line can be meant literally, but figuratively - that is, it keeps order in the universe. And if literally, I take it as the Mists prevents exact events from re-occuring, i.e., a kingdom falls, then the "same" kingdom rises and goes through the same history - or to be more specific: half of the theory in this thread. In short: If literal, that line seems to me to symbolize that the Mists prevents existence from being a cycle.

Konig, it's rather boring now that you always try to force your ideas and resolutions on us. We don't know how the Mists work, or if it is sentient or not, but this was just an idea to explain events. This is a discussion, there's nothing at stake. Of course, you can view those lines in any way you want, but please, don't argue with that. Instead just say "I think that line means this...".

We don't know which will come true, perhaps both of us are wrong, but you shouldn't attack my view when you have only yours against it. Haven't you seen how did I start my first post in this thread? "First, I'd like to tell you how do I view the undead."

Take it easy, man. Tell us how do you think these stuffs work by your opinion, but do not attack ours when you have only your ways of thinking against ours. This doesn't mean that you must let every insane hypothesis/theory to survive here, you can safely "destroy their credibility" IF there are major issues with the known lore, or large mistakes in the construction of the hypothesis.

Konig Des Todes said:

Then the Mists must have an IQ of over 9,000 (had to put in that reference, dunno why, just had to) because to be able to know every being in existence to the point of knowing what exact choices the creatures will take is one hell of a feat. Near impossible, if not so.

Plus, you didn't answer my question: how does the Mists prevent the resurrection?

I hope you read the above paragraph. However, why not? Creation had to start somewhere, and if the Mists was the very first something in the Universe (of GW), then perhaps it is Uber-Uber-God who formed the known Universe from itself(?).

And here's one of the answers for your question (though I gave you a possible answer, it implies you didn't listen to the words of others).

Me said:

Much like the bloodstone prevents wielding all four schools of magic at the same time, something or someone prevents the return of the soul.

*

Now that I think of it, if pre-determination exists in GW, then all those requirements are connected to this one.

So being touched by Abaddon, killed in a special way, taken by a god or by the god's avatar, etc. was determined already. Other examples are the soul-batteries, Bloodstones and/or the caster of the resurrection spell being delayed via disruption, Frozen Soil (for example) or forced to retreat.**

Konig Des Todes said:

But in this case... what is the Mists even doing aside from observing?

* + **

Konig Des Todes said:

I don't believe in the infinity of space. There is a fine line between infinite space and other kinds of "infnities" - such as infinite time. In this case, your actually not speaking in an infinite (that I can see), but instead all knowledge - which is impossible as knowledge is infinite, and having such would be impossible, though nearly possible. The closest one can get is all knowledge of the past and present, and all possibilities of the future - which is what your saying.

And "other kinds of infinities" can exist in a finite space? No. Only infinite time could, but time is an artificial way to count the difference between two states. We can not perceive time, nor the Universe. It just ... goes.

Konig Des Todes said:

I didn't say everything dies once, I said everything dies. Even the gods die. The only thing(s) that cannot die are not even beings: Time and Existence. The Mists might be the one thing which is a being (we don't even know if it is a being!) that cannot die.

You forget energy and the eternal gods (in Guild Wars Universe only, as we know a way too little to say that "everything dies eventually"). And of course, there's the Mists. Do you really think these things are going to "die"? :surprised:

Konig Des Todes said:

Wouldn't a construct who inhabits a dead body be the same as an undead though? And wouldn't a construct - if speaking in the term of Shiro's constructs and not in the real definition - technically be the same as undead, just not in a body, thus Dhuum should be equally hateful towards them as well?

There are two things I can think of: They are not really undead, just mimicing the dead (but they were never alive?), or Dhuum is hypocritical and hates all undead but his own.

Well, yeah. Just to nitpick: "Wouldn't a spirit/demon who inhabits a dead body...

However, then undeads are in the "family" of constructs. Only those undeads who are created via forcing another spirit into the corpse, of course.

And the idea that Dhuum is hypocritical seems to be fair. He's quite mad, actually.