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Use of Longbow+Rifle in PvP


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#1 Mistah Eff

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 12:59 AM

The Longbow and Rifle are both ranged weapons, but they both pack a different punch. The longbow is generally a AoE weapon, and the Rifle is a single-target high power weapon, or at least, that's what I've come to understand.

Just thinking about it, I immediately begin to think the Rifle will be more effective in PvP. Real players are smarter than the CPU's and Mobs: We recognize where damage is and can quickly tell the path to avoid it, and usually will follow it, no matter how close we are to the opponent. Basically, fighting computers with AoE will be easier than with live players, especially with DoT AoE. Real players will no where to go to get out of the damage and where to go next to get you but still avoid it.

However, just PvP in general often has runners, and this is where the rifle seems more effective. A Rifle on a Warrior is described by picking off fleeing floes, and that would be great in PvP. Hit hard to down your fleeing opponent.


Thoughts?

#2 Jostedalsosten

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:05 AM

You forget about snaring. Say a guardian throws down a circular ward around an enemy and then a warrior unleashes a powerful AoE attack on that enemy. Each weapon encourages different play styles, so you could say that the longbow encourages team play, while the rifle is for taking out single targets.

Also, as you said, people like to avoid AoE. Why not put one on the cap point where 5 enemies are standing to get them off, at least temporarily.

#3 Naconix

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:05 AM

I think both are awesome weapons, I love all of their skills, and I definitely hope they both have a use in PVP.

#4 Zidijan

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:06 AM

I'm not sure this justifies having an entire thread. But yes, rifles will most likely be better at pvp, just like GW1 air eles were more effective in most pvp forms than fire eles

#5 psycho7005

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:06 AM

I see what you're saying but PvP (especially WvWvW), isn't always going to be 1v1 encounters. More than likely it'll be group encounters. And while you're right about players being more intelligent then AI, can't AoE be another form of control on the battlefield? I dunno...

#6 Mistah Eff

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:08 AM

@Jos

Yes but in massive WvW PvP there won't be a guardian buddied up with every Warrior. I think all the professions should be dependent not on others, but they can use the boosts from the others.

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AoE can be a great form of control but you can't really expect it to do what it needs to all by itself.

Like Fire Rain or w/e, players can just get out of it, unless snared or something, which is a variable, that won't always happen. Variables could be getting downed and the AoE right on you, getting Guardian shields, etc., but in the big picture, I think Rifle will be better for PvP because it's easier to pick off fleeing opponents and do big damage on single targets.

#7 Jostedalsosten

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:23 AM

Mistah Eff said:

@Jos

Yes but in massive WvW PvP there won't be a guardian buddied up with every Warrior. I think all the professions should be dependent not on others, but they can use the boosts from the others.

The Guardian was just an example taken from the top of my head. You would have the same effect with a Ranger with traps, Elementalist with that round static wall, Necromancer with fear, Thief with crippling skills, engineer with glue shot...The point is that all professions have some form of snare and that a warrior can take advantage of that in battle. If it's a viable PvP tactic for PUGs...we'll see. It's definitely is in experienced groups.

#8 Mistah Eff

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:27 AM

Yes, for experienced players. I didn't mention I meant like low level or nooby players, my bad.


Low  levels though (rather, just generally less skillfull players) probably WON'T know how to work together, and I imagine the Rifle will be far more effective.

#9 On_Slaught

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:39 AM

I can't see myself going Longbow/Rifle in any pvp except keep defense. If I am in any normal combat against smaller groups/solo then I'd use the rifle over the longbow 100% of the time for the massive burst so they would be redundant in use to me. At least in keep defense you can AOE the zerg.

Having said that i'm sure it will still do good dmg if you just use the rifle mainly and just switch to longbow to blow the CDs and switch back. Dual shot hits very hard at least. Also, the longbow burst may work better for your style so you could benefit from that as well.

#10 Asterai

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:32 AM

Area control is very important in some maps, and PvE elements enter some maps.  A prime example of this is the Jade Quarry in GW1; at least one very common and effective build brings a strong AoE spell to nuke the $%^* out of stationary, clustered, non-healing NPC base defenders.  Similar uses will arise in conquest maps with small "capture areas"; nuke the spot, and give enemies a choice between swift death and holding the base a few seconds, or moving and letting you get a jump on capturing that spot.

I'm not saying longbow is better, but it sure has its uses.  You will need to examine each situation as you encounter it.

#11 capitalrawr

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 03:23 AM

I think the people who watch the Warrior thread might have better answers for this specific question: http://www.guildwars...pons-t8948.html

try there

#12 Ben-A-BoO

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 06:37 AM

Zidijan said:

...just like GW1 air eles were more effective in most pvp forms than fire eles
True to a certain extent (or as Asterai said, just in other words):
I wouldn't advise to think in absolutes here, but situational. An important factor to take into account is map/ objective design. Take GW1's King of the Hill or Capture Points in Heroes' Ascents as another example. Fire Elementalists rocked there, because A) people had to ball up to fulfill the objective and/or B) Moving out of Area of Effect would be against the objective.

Interestingly enough the concept of key and control points in GW2's conquest mode puts a lot of strategic emphasis on objectives that require one to stay in the area, as hinted in the player vs. player overview and Jonathan Sharps Blog post about the Battle of Kyhlo.

So I wouldn't jump the gun yet making statements about which one in general would be better.

Edited by Ben-A-BoO, 18 August 2011 - 06:41 AM.


#13 Hypernia

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 07:33 AM

In structured, rifle for sure but in WvWvW I'm taking the longbow for the AOE, especially keep sieges, which are all about chokepoints. Which makes it primetime for AOE attacks.

#14 Jobrjo

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 01:25 PM

Yes, that would be an interesting and could be an effective build. I once thought about it myself. Both give you high damage (especially the Rifle), you can use AoE and single target, and your at a range.I know that that would be a powerful Warrior build.

Edited by Jobrjo, 19 August 2011 - 03:47 PM.


#15 Pwns Froggles

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:56 PM

I don't think it will be viable at all, it just doesn't have any medium to close range defense, and you will get killed anytime any close combat profession gets near you.

#16 Cydox

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 01:56 PM

For all we know there's a trait that makes rifles act diffrently, or one that adds burning to bow shots instead of explosions.

#17 Shinimas

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:21 PM

Pwns Froggles said:

I don't think it will be viable at all, it just doesn't have any medium to close range defense, and you will get killed anytime any close combat profession gets near you.

You have U-skills for that. And Rifle has a knockback. If all esle fails you can just shoot them point-blank.

#18 ensoriki

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:36 PM

AOE is one of your best tools against stealth, and to put pressure on a capture point.
While DOT aoe may not work ideally all the time, single burst AOE can be harder to avoid then single target damage.

#19 mrbig

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

The longbow is just more strategical: basically, you have to put yourself on some good position ( over a roof or similar) and take advantage of its incredible wide range ( the long bow is the weapon with the wider range). Moreover, it has some good control skill like Pin Down.

You have to understand the if you want to play as a ranged warrior, you'll have to kite as much as you can, since his ranged weapons are medium-long range.

So, if you want to maximize survivability, you have to build your war on control.

Like this

http://medias.luna-atra.fr/gw2/skill_tool/generator.php?lang=en&code=301bdb02b630ad2f276c5;32238f5310fd382a7dd7c78d64&switch=35d4685

Throw bolas and Kick will help you to keep the proper distance, Pin down and Rifle butt will do the same. Both long bow and rifle are quite good on damaging: if you're on medium range, rifle is your choice; if you're able to stay on long range unnoticed, longbow is far better.

#20 Dyne2Alex

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 03:27 PM

In structured, I'd probably prefer rifle, simply because if I want AOE, I could just use that elite that makes all attacks AOE.  Since all of the rifle's attacks are single target, you can easily gauge when the use of your elite is necessary.  I imagine a rifle+aoeelite warrior would be quite deadly when used right.  

I'm sure people will play longbow warrior pretty well too, especially as people noted, when combined with snares/cripples/immob, can destroy entire groups.  I'd especially want to use bows in WvWvW, as if you team up with a longbow ranger, barrage + aoe fire shots can easily decimate zergy groups, since barrage cripples groups, preventing dodges by anyone caught by it.

Edited by Dyne2Alex, 25 January 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#21 Hoolee

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 04:41 PM

Rifle for 5 vs 5

Long bow for WvWvW

Dont think it needs more explanation...=P

#22 Epic_Bear_Guy

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:23 PM

Rifle with sword/warhorn, mark my words this will be an beastly combo. The longbow will be good in clusters.

#23 Palmtree

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 05:51 AM

I think it's worth mentioning that the longbow has a lot more potential in terms of CPC's here - it has its fair share of both initiators and finishers (although rifle volley will be a superb finisher).

Longshot warrior will definitely be an interesting build. I'm definitely going to try it. The longbow is much better at AoE and slow/immob, whereas the rifle is much better for control and burst.

If done well, I think a longshot warrior has some serious potential... although I'd agree with Epic_Bear_Guy above me that using a sword/warhorn with one of the ranged options would probably be a better choice (at least at this point).

#24 Agroman

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:39 PM

mrbig said:

the long bow is the weapon with the wider range
Nope, as far as we know, the Longbow and the Rifle have the same range. Propably the Ranger's spammable Longbow skill has an increased range, though, but that's not sure to say.

mrbig said:

Both long bow and rifle are quite good on damaging: if you're on medium range, rifle is your choice; if you're able to stay on long range unnoticed, longbow is far better.
Uhm, no. Actually, it's the exact opposite.
The Longbow has the exact same range of the Rifle, like mentioned above. Also, it's arrows fly rather slow (in comparison to the Rifle bullets or a Ranger's arrow), however they make that up with the AoE. Any way you put it, skills like Fan of Fire or Arcing Arrow are far more reliable at medium range, at long range they are easily detected and can be dodged.
In comparison, the Rifle is almost purely for powerful long-ranged singletarget damage (with the exception of Rifle Butt), much like the Ranger's Longbow.

Also, saying that both Rifle  and longbow are good at damage is a bit to simple. The Rifle is good for heavy focussed damage, the Longbow only uses its full potential when facing bigger groups of enemies, as it relies a lot on spreading fire rather than direct shots.

#25 white_migraine

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 12:27 AM

@Agroman, if I'm understanding mrbig. using a rifle will get you noticed fast, meaning the enemy is going to go towards you, thus making medium the ideal range to use it. Longbow on the other hand, if you're unnoticed, is especially good for long range, because it's slower but aoe, you can hit multiple foes and then get ready to get out of there before they overwhelm you.
what you're saying is the longbow would be good for medium range and rifle long? if you're in medium range with the longbow, it's probably better to switch to melee, as you could probably only get off one skill before they're in melee range. However, my opinion of rifle is that it's really just good single target damage.

#26 Agroman

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 12:34 AM

white_migraine said:

@Agroman, if I'm understanding mrbig. using a rifle will get you noticed fast, meaning the enemy is going to go towards you, thus making medium the ideal range to use it. Longbow on the other hand, if you're unnoticed, is especially good for long range, because it's slower but aoe, you can hit multiple foes and then get ready to get out of there before they overwhelm you.
The thing is that you are in no way more easily noticed with a Rifle. The *boom* sound of a Rifle in GW2 isn't much louder than that of an arrow being shot. What is easily noticed are flaming arrows, whereas concerning bullets... obsiously less so.
Anyway, 'not being noticed' is really not point, we are talking about a Warrior.

white_migraine said:

what you're saying is the longbow would be good for medium range and rifle long? if you're in medium range with the longbow, it's probably better to switch to melee, as you could probably only get off one skill before they're in melee range. However, my opinion of rifle is that it's really just good single target damage.
In dynamic PvP you will be able to kite melee'ers if you play properly, so I don't see the Longbow excelling at medium range being a bad thing. Also, I didn't say it is bad at long range ;).

#27 white_migraine

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:24 AM

@Agroman. when I was saying that, I wasn't really thinking about combat being visual... had a real derp moment there. I was thinking rifle will do more damage to a single target, that'll get their attention, not even the noise, when a flaming arrow is MUCH more noticeable than anything. sorry about that.
you have some good points.

#28 Agroman

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:37 AM

No need to feel sorry at all. We're all discussing this on a friendly basis after all :).

#29 Bariusdrop

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:59 AM

Hoolee said:

Rifle for 5 vs 5

Long bow for WvWvW

Dont think it needs more explanation...=P

This seems pretty much right. Though there should be something to be said about area denial on the longbow as far as capture points are concerned! I think longbow trumps Rifle for area denial+groups of enemies, but for any kind of dueling or 1v1 type of deal rifle outclasses longbow any day. It is a nice trade off. Currently I am having a tough time because I REALLY like the greatsword and don't necessarily want to have 2 AoE heavy weapons (longbow+greatsword), so am really conflicted!

#30 mrbig

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 02:08 PM

Agroman said:

Nope, as far as we know, the Longbow and the Rifle have the same range. Propably the Ranger's spammable Longbow skill has an increased range, though, but that's not sure to say.


Uhm, no. Actually, it's the exact opposite.
The Longbow has the exact same range of the Rifle, like mentioned above. Also, it's arrows fly rather slow (in comparison to the Rifle bullets or a Ranger's arrow), however they make that up with the AoE. Any way you put it, skills like Fan of Fire or Arcing Arrow are far more reliable at medium range, at long range they are easily detected and can be dodged.
In comparison, the Rifle is almost purely for powerful long-ranged singletarget damage (with the exception of Rifle Butt), much like the Ranger's Longbow.

Also, saying that both Rifle  and longbow are good at damage is a bit to simple. The Rifle is good for heavy focussed damage, the Longbow only uses its full potential when facing bigger groups of enemies, as it relies a lot on spreading fire rather than direct shots.


We have seen longbow Wars shooting arrows from roofs, not so sure about the opposite. The rifle was never used as a "wide range" weapon, but it was used as kiting option. I know it's not much, but from actual gamplay experience, the longbow seems a lot more "ranged" than rifle, that is more like thief/enge pistols.

Moreover, all loongbow skills deal fairly better damage than rifle skills, killshot excepted, that has to rely on Brutal Shot vulnerability, that is already on medium range.

Moreover, the Rifle can count on Aimed Shot cripple ( lasting 6 secs on a 10 sec CD) and a Knockback.

Surely the rifle is better suited fo kiting, making it better on medium range.

Moreover, since longbow arrows are quite low but more damaging, having it on medium range is crazy, you would land 1-2 hits and your enemy would already be under your skirt.

My points still stand :D