[Courage]

Good day to you fellow Guild Wars and Lore fans !

For a while now I have been pondering the events from Guild Wars: Prophecies up untill and including The Eye of the North Expansion.
I've come to the following theory:

Abaddon, from the Realm of Torment, whispered the Flameseeker Prophecies to Glint 800 years ago.
The Prophecies led to the events in the Original Guild Wars; The Searing and The Cataclysm.

200 Years Prior to Present Day Guild Wars, Shiro Tagashi empowered by Abaddon, let the Jade Wind sweep through Cantha.

In Nightfall see the following turn of events; Abaddon had planned that the Lich Lord with the Titans / Charr would conquer the continent of Tyria while Shiro and his Afflicted would conquesr Cantha. Varesh Ossa and the Margonites would cover Elona.
Thus the three major mortal continents would be secured.

Abaddon himself would work from inside the Realm of Torment aided by Menzies in the Fissure of Woe and Dhuum from the Underworld.

We learn that the death of the Great Destroyer pushed back the reawekening of Primordus by 2 generations.
We also learn that Svanir was corrupted by Jormag.
We also learn that the Dwarves knew about the Great Destroyer and Zhaitan, I assume Abaddon would too.


This lead me to think of the following;
Abaddon caused The Cataclysm to push back the reawakening of Zhaitan. One powerfull advisary less to worry about for a while. Now for the next one:
I believe the Deep Sea Dragon to reside in side the JAde Sea somewhere, possible near the Forest and the Sea entrance.
Why?
The Wind Froze everything! Would push back any Dragons reawakening by quite a while. The dragons corruption and evil thoguhts could very well have been what spawned Kanaxai from the Deep as well as drive Urgoz mad with corruption incombination with the loss of life through the Jade Wind in his Forest.

The death of a general pushed back Primordus' reawkening by 2 generations, think about what the Cataclysm and the Jade Wind would've done.


Your thoughts?

Edited by Courage, 28 December 2009 - 09:18 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Courage said:

Abaddon, from the Realm of Torment, whispered the Flameseeker Prophecies to Glint 800 years ago.

This is an interesting thought I have not seen on the forums - it has always been that Glint was tricking us like everyone else in Prophecies, or that she prophesized them herself and didn't foresee the Titans being so destructive (as her Vision of Glint states during the Titan Quests).

Courage said:

I believe the Deep Sea Dragon to reside in side the Jade Sea somewhere, possible near the Forest and the Sea entrance.
Why?
The Wind Froze everything! Would push back any Dragons reawakening by quite a while. The dragons corruption and evil thoguhts could very well have been what spawned Kanaxai from the Deep as well as drive Urgoz mad with corruption incombination with the loss of life through the Jade Wind in his Forest.

All the Elder Dragons are hinted to be in Tyria. The Deep Sea Dragon - where ever it is - woke up after Zhaitan, thus passage to Cantha would be removed and if the Deep Sea Dragon was in Cantha - or even the Unending Ocean - we would not know of it.

From what we see, thoughts themselves by the dragon does nothing - it is the magic itself, which in the case of Jormag (which would be a similar case for the Deep Sea Dragon if you were right), corruption would only take place if the source was tapped on purpose. And we know what droze Urgoz insane - it was the Jade Wind itself. Kanaxai's origin is unknown, but I believe him to be a demon through and through.

Courage said:

The death of a general pushed back Primordus' reawkening by 2 generations, think about what the Cataclysm and the Jade Wind would've done.

It wasn't the death of the general which pushed back Primordus' awakening. The Great Destroyer was "preparing the way" for Primordus and is called his "alarm clock" - this means that the Great Destroyer was trying to wake Primordus up, but we killed it before Primordus did wake up.

Courage said:

Abaddon caused The Cataclysm to push back the reawakening of Zhaitan. One powerfull advisary less to worry about for a while.

This would actually push the dragons' awakening foreward. All the destructive actions around the dragons (Searing, Jade Wind, Nightfall) and none targeting the dragons themselves would only to nug them more and more and lead to their awakening. It is because of this I believe Abaddon had no idea of the elder dragons - or at least didn't think they would wake up.

It is funny, in one light things could be used to argue for Abaddon knowing of the dragons and trying to prevent their awakening, but in another light it shows Abaddon's ignorance and supports what we know of Abaddon: He just wanted to break free (queue Queen's "I Want To Break Free" song).

I think that Abaddon's reason for wishing to leave the Realm of Torment (thus why he influenced the Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, and Nightfall) is unaffected by the introduction of the elder dragons in the devs' mind, and that Abaddon's actions are in fact what led to wake up the elder dragons - not the other way around.

I mean, if you're a heavy sleeper, and a gun goes off in or just outside your house, you're gonna wake up, not sleep longer (unless the bullet hits you, and in the analogy, this is not the case as the dragons were not killed :p).

[Whisper]

Konig Des Todes said:

I think that Abaddon's reason for wishing to leave the Realm of Torment (thus why he influenced the Jade Wind, Cataclysm, Searing, and Nightfall) is unaffected by the introduction of the elder dragons in the devs' mind, and that Abaddon's actions are in fact what led to wake up the elder dragons - not the other way around.

I mean, if you're a heavy sleeper, and a gun goes off in or just outside your house, you're gonna wake up, not sleep longer (unless the bullet hits you, and in the analogy, this is not the case as the dragons were not killed :p).

Not sure about that ....Personaly i could sleep through the cataclysm/ any kind of major apocalyptic event (deep sleeper).

I agree with you that it was the actions of Abbadon that triggered this awakening (indirectly)... Not sure about Glint manipulating us though (i didn't feel too comfortable about her). But it sure could be a possibility... Wasen't it mentioned that Glint would play the good guy role in Guild Wars 2?...Or was the only speculation?

[nilzardo]

So it could be possible that Abaddon is actually the "misunderstood good guy" and that he caused some bad things for the greater good? As you said, he caused the cataclysm to stop Zhaitan from awakening. :P
I think I'm just going crazy here.

[Konig Des Todes]

Whisper said:

Not sure about that ....Personaly i could sleep through the cataclysm/ any kind of major apocalyptic event (deep sleeper).

For Zhaitan, the cataclysm would pretty much be the same as your roof collapsing. For Primordus, the Searing would pretty much be the same as a car driving into your house. You can sleep through those?

Nightfall might be possible to sleep through, but those two events would be rather hard to. And there is the possibility that Primordus awakening woke up the other four dragons as well.

Well, apparently Zhaitan slept through the Cataclysm, as he woke over 150 years later (though for a dragon who is over 11,000 years old, that might not seem very long). But these events might have nugged the dragons and woke up the Great Destroyer, who gave a few more nugges to Primordus who's awakening possibly gave the final nugges to the other four dragons.

Whisper said:

Wasen't it mentioned that Glint would play the good guy role in Guild Wars 2?

I think it was only stated that she wasn't the same as the elder dragons. No mention on good guy/bad guy.

nilzardo said:

So it could be possible that Abaddon is actually the "misunderstood good guy" and that he caused some bad things for the greater good? As you said, he caused the cataclysm to stop Zhaitan from awakening. :P

Do keep in mind that the OP's statements are mostly speculation (only facts there is Abaddon being beind the Cataclysm, Searing, and Jade Wind - no reason behind to those is known aside from bringing forth Nightfall and his release).

Besides, based on the lore on Abaddon's background, the closest to a "good guy" Abaddon can be is a poor judging guy in need of massive anger management.

[Whisper]

Konig Des Todes said:

For Zhaitan, the cataclysm would pretty much be the same as your roof collapsing. For Primordus, the Searing would pretty much be the same as a car driving into your house. You can sleep through those?

Nightfall might be possible to sleep through, but those two events would be rather hard to. And there is the possibility that Primordus awakening woke up the other four dragons as well.

Well, apparently Zhaitan slept through the Cataclysm, as he woke over 150 years later (though for a dragon who is over 11,000 years old, that might not seem very long). But these events might have nugged the dragons and woke up the Great Destroyer, who gave a few more nugges to Primordus who's awakening possibly gave the final nugges to the other four dragons.

I think it was only stated that she wasn't the same as the elder dragons. No mention on good guy/bad guy.

Do keep in mind that the OP's statements are mostly speculation (only facts there is Abaddon being beind the Cataclysm, Searing, and Jade Wind - no reason behind to those is known aside from bringing forth Nightfall and his release).

I have 3 alarm clocks ringing at the same time to get me in a somewhat awake state..... So it might be able to wake me up....Just maybe ^^.

About Glint....I do think she will be playing a major role in linking the story together..

[Thalador]

Welcome to the Lore forum, Courage!

Courage said:

Abaddon, from the Realm of Torment, whispered the Flameseeker Prophecies to Glint 800 years ago.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You see, she did that in the year of 272 AE, in other words: approximately 272 years after Abaddon's defeat at the hands of the "true gods". That's an eyeblink for an eternal(?) entity like Abaddon, though I think he was still rather weak and had other things to take care of first. Such as taking over the Realm of Torment, rallying/creating more demons, finding allies like Menzies and Dhuum, etc.

In my opinion, Glint either got the information from another source (from a vision, but who could've sent that vision? - poetic question), saw what the Mists held for Tyria, or did it willingly, to set things in motion. I think the likeliest possibilites are the first and the third. We've been told by Jeff Grubb that Glint told the story of her creation as it fitted for her goals, thus maybe she lied. Perhaps the whole Flameseeker Prophecies was the "oil" for the "fire" to start the re-awakening of the Elder Dragons. After all, she's the oldest, known living creature on Tyria (after the Dragons). Not to mention that she's a dragon, so it wouldn't be surprising if she's their offspring (more precisely, Primordus').

And there's the fact that she's held in a tiny crystal shard, in a pocket dimension. However, why? She was protected(?) by armies of Forgotten, Enchanted Armors, Elementals and facets of the Elder Dragons' power. This brings up the interesting idea that perhaps she was a prisoner as well.

The only thing that goes against this idea that the Destroyers attacked her baby, but I'll leave this for my later posts.

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You see, she did that in the year of 272 AE, in other words: approximately 272 years after Abaddon's defeat at the hands of the "true gods". That's an eyeblink for an eternal(?) entity like Abaddon, though I think he was still rather weak and had other things to take care of first. Such as taking over the Realm of Torment, rallying/creating more demons, finding allies like Menzies and Dhuum, etc.

Continuing on this: The first show of Abaddon's power in history after his imprisonment was 200 years before Prophecies. There is nothing to imply that he was able to act before then, and even 200 years before Prophecies, all he did was send 2 (maybe 3) of his servants to Tyria, and possibly influence Odran (if not influence Odran, a good chance that Abaddon used Odran's portals - the timeframe is too much of a coincidence for that to be honest).

And on the comment of "taking over the Realm of Torment" - dialogues indicate that this was a fairly recent event during the time of the PCs entering the Realm of Torment, so for the 1,000 years of imprisonment, there wouldn't have been much, if any, control of Abaddon's here.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

And there's the fact that she's held in a tiny crystal shard, in a pocket dimension. However, why? She was protected(?) by armies of Forgotten, Enchanted Armors, Elementals and facets of the Elder Dragons' power. This brings up the interesting idea that perhaps she was a prisoner as well.

@ the bolded: This is not true. You are mixing up the gods' facets with Glint's facets. The facets we see in the Dragon's Lair is her own defense and is unrelated to the other six facets which are fought in the quest chain.

The question which needs to be kept in mind when regarding the 12 facets: Are the EN ones to be taken for detail (that is, that they look just like glint), or their general shape (that is, that they are draconic). If it is the former, then the "source of power" which the facets resemble may in fact be Glint and not the elder dragons, but if it is the later, then the source of power could be either Glint, an unknown draconic source, or the elder dragons.

As to "why is she in a pocket dimension" - it may not be for defense, but instead a "hide and seek" game to prevent visitors, the first of many challenges is to find and enter that grain of sand, the other is to best her defenses (after all, if you had the gift of foresight, wouldn't you set up ways to keep visitors out so that you don't have every single joe smoe asking you where they left their keys?). Besides, those Forgotten armies, Elementals, and her six facets are not that powerful it would seem.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

This is an interesting thought I have not seen on the forums - it has always been that Glint was tricking us like everyone else in Prophecies, or that she prophesized them herself and didn't foresee the Titans being so destructive (as her Vision of Glint states during the Titan Quests).

You haven't? Perhaps I'm mixing my own thoughts with memories of discussions on GWO, but I seem to recall having seen it somewhere on there before. I know I've certainly contemplated it, since Abaddon seems connected with the entire foresight ability what with the dreamers in Elona and the Fortune Teller in Cantha. I'll look around for the threads there, as I know Quintus had his suspicions regarding Glint for quite some time that he espoused.

Konig Des Todes said:

It wasn't the death of the general which pushed back Primordus' awakening. The Great Destroyer was "preparing the way" for Primordus and is called his "alarm clock" - this means that the Great Destroyer was trying to wake Primordus up, but we killed it before Primordus did wake up.

It's essentially the same thing, though. In killing the Great Destroyer, we prevented it from doing its job, which in turn led to Primordus waking up two generations later. In short, it did push back its reawakening, in a roundabout manner.

Edit: Found the threads I was thinking of: A Summary of the Abaddon-gate Conspiracy and Glint, Friend or Villain in Dragon's Clothing?

[draxynnic]

Konig Des Todes said:

As to "why is she in a pocket dimension" - it may not be for defense, but instead a "hide and seek" game to prevent visitors, the first of many challenges is to find and enter that grain of sand, the other is to best her defenses (after all, if you had the gift of foresight, wouldn't you set up ways to keep visitors out so that you don't have every single joe smoe asking you where they left their keys?). Besides, those Forgotten armies, Elementals, and her six facets are not that powerful it would seem.

Indeed. In fact, it's mentioned - by a Forgotten - that these "defenses" are not to protect Glint (after all, defeating her once you got to her used to be the most difficult battle in Prophecies, while the rest of the mission is relatively simple in comparison), but to screen out unwanted visitors. Unless Glint has actually suborned the Forgotten, it seems likely that the Gatekeeper would be telling the truth.

Another issue with the theory that Glint is a prisoner (apart from that she can probably break through the defenses with ease if she so chose) is that she can open portals from her lair directly to Droknar's Forge. Now, it's possible that there's some additional layer of protection to stop her from leaving via either route, but everything we can see seems to indicate that she could leave whenever she darn well pleases.

[Konig Des Todes]

Gmr Leon said:

It's essentially the same thing, though. In killing the Great Destroyer, we prevented it from doing its job, which in turn led to Primordus waking up two generations later. In short, it did push back its reawakening, in a roundabout manner.

But the manner in which he brought it up is as if it wasn't the act of killing the Great Destroyer, but the act of its death. That is, the energy released from its death is what woke up Primordus, not us killing it before it can wake up Primordus. The comparison to the Cataclysm and the Jade Wind did not help.

Gmr Leon said:

Edit: Found the threads I was thinking of: A Summary of the Abaddon-gate Conspiracy and Glint, Friend or Villain in Dragon's Clothing?

As said, I do recall people saying Glint is evil, or connected to the elder dragons in her being evil. And I did read (some of) that thread, but clearly not all of it. :p

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

Continuing on this: The first show of Abaddon's power in history after his imprisonment was 200 years before Prophecies. There is nothing to imply that he was able to act before then, and even 200 years before Prophecies, all he did was send 2 (maybe 3) of his servants to Tyria, and possibly influence Odran (if not influence Odran, a good chance that Abaddon used Odran's portals - the timeframe is too much of a coincidence for that to be honest).

And on the comment of "taking over the Realm of Torment" - dialogues indicate that this was a fairly recent event during the time of the PCs entering the Realm of Torment, so for the 1,000 years of imprisonment, there wouldn't have been much, if any, control of Abaddon's here.

Yup. He didn't show any signs until 872 AE. And it was still an indirect action, because only the Titans emerged from the Jaws of Oblivion at that time.

Konig Des Todes said:

@ the bolded: This is not true. You are mixing up the gods' facets with Glint's facets. The facets we see in the Dragon's Lair is her own defense and is unrelated to the other six facets which are fought in the quest chain.

What you say is not true as well. Yeah, I thought that all the facets in the mission share their names with the one in the Path to Revelations quest series. However, 5 of those facets resemble to the GW:EN ones in power. I wouldn't be so hasty to say that those "dragons" were there to test us. Remember: Glint told the things in the way she saw it fitting, thus maybe it was another trick.

Konig Des Todes said:

The question which needs to be kept in mind when regarding the 12 facets: Are the EN ones to be taken for detail (that is, that they look just like glint), or their general shape (that is, that they are draconic). If it is the former, then the "source of power" which the facets resemble may in fact be Glint and not the elder dragons, but if it is the later, then the source of power could be either Glint, an unknown draconic source, or the elder dragons.

I suppose you only say that, because you still think that Glint is the sixth and most powerful Elder Dragon and she divided her power and gave it to the gods. :p

Though your doubt is right. It could be ture, although very unlikely. Jeff was quite straight about this.

Gmr Leon said:

You haven't? Perhaps I'm mixing my own thoughts with memories of discussions on GWO, but I seem to recall having seen it somewhere on there before. I know I've certainly contemplated it, since Abaddon seems connected with the entire foresight ability what with the dreamers in Elona and the Fortune Teller in Cantha. I'll look around for the threads there, as I know Quintus had his suspicions regarding Glint for quite some time that he espoused.

And there was another in this forum, though Konig locked it because it was another thread about the Elder Dragons. We (you and I) had a lengthy discussion about the connection of Glint, the Elder Dragons and the gods. I don't know where do the locked threads go but I hope they don't get deleted. You also brought up Quintus' conspiracy theory there.

@ Konig, if you don't mind please find that thread and merge it with The Powerful Dragons of Tyria thread. Any other solution - like putting it into the archives - is appreciated.

draxynnic said:

Konig Des Todes said:

As to "why is she in a pocket dimension" - it may not be for defense, but instead a "hide and seek" game to prevent visitors, the first of many challenges is to find and enter that grain of sand, the other is to best her defenses (after all, if you had the gift of foresight, wouldn't you set up ways to keep visitors out so that you don't have every single joe smoe asking you where they left their keys?). Besides, those Forgotten armies, Elementals, and her six facets are not that powerful it would seem.

Indeed. In fact, it's mentioned - by a Forgotten - that these "defenses" are not to protect Glint (after all, defeating her once you got to her used to be the most difficult battle in Prophecies, while the rest of the mission is relatively simple in comparison), but to screen out unwanted visitors. Unless Glint has actually suborned the Forgotten, it seems likely that the Gatekeeper would be telling the truth.

Okay, so I read the Forgotten Gate Keeper's dialogue. I'll post here everything just to make quoting faster.

Forgotten Gate Keeper said:

Do not fear me, human. I will bring you no harm here on the threshold of the Dragon's Lair.

What is it you desire of me?

Yes, yes. She is an oracle. A powerful master of many things she is. She has seen many things, knows of your arrival here, knows that only those who overcome great adversity can accomplish great things. Only the Ascendants who make it through her defenses can speak with her face-to-face.

No. No. The great dragon has little to fear from intruders. Little indeed. Her defenses are not to protect her. They are to test those who wish to gain her audience. The task she has foreseen in your future is not one for the weak. Oh no. She wants to be sure, sure that only those strong enough to complete this important task reach her.

It is very hard to find. Very hard. Glint keeps herself tucked away inside a pocket dimension, inside a single grain of crystalline sand. You could search for a million lifetimes and then a million more and still never find her.

The only way into the grain of sand is through this portal. Step through to the other side, and you will begin the last leg of your journey.

Simply find your way to the great dragon. Survive the tests inside, and you will prove yourself worth of meeting with Glint.

Glint does not often accept visitors. If you wish to meet her, you must make your way through the defenses of her lair.

Defeat the six facets of the great dragon prophet, and you shall be granted an audience. Step through this portal to begin your journey.

First, he seems a little bit creepy/loony. Like someone who's luring you into a trap, or lying to you.

But the most important thing of all: Dont you find it weird, that he's the only Forgotten in the mission who's not hostile towards you? His brothers are going to be slain - many of them - yet he just opens the way to them and to Glint.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole mission was just another trick to get rid of Glint's prisoners.

What's more, what you said, Drax, could be quite the case. After all, we know one Forgotten who was suborned and thus tainted by the foul magic of the gemstones, and there's another forgotten who was corrupted by Dhuum. Also, we have Thenemi who would gladly betray you if that would save him from death. There are many traitorous, corrupted or coward Forgotten, why would be it surprise for us if the Gate Keeper is one of them?

And I still haven't mentioned that Glint easily kept contact with the outside (see Brotherhood of the Dragon). It seems possibly that she could get in touch with the Gate Keeper, and turn him - if he wasn't corrupted by then.

In my opinion, it seems highly probable that the facets were put there by the gods. 5 representing their main domains (War, Life, Death, Nature, Illusion) and the Facet of Elements combining their elements (Fire, Air, Ice, Earth, Energy) - only lorewise, as the Facet of Elements was Earth, Air and Energy attuned.

Of course, this does not rule out the possibility that Glint is a "good guy", however, it strengthens the possibility that she was a "convict" and she wanted us to get rid of her prisoners.

In Leon's motto: "We must doubt everything" (that is uncertain). And trust me, this is.

(Oh, remember Jeff's quote on Glint.) :)

draxynnic said:

Another issue with the theory that Glint is a prisoner (apart from that she can probably break through the defenses with ease if she so chose) is that she can open portals from her lair directly to Droknar's Forge. Now, it's possible that there's some additional layer of protection to stop her from leaving via either route, but everything we can see seems to indicate that she could leave whenever she darn well pleases.

Almost forgot this. She only opened it after we had taken care of the Forgotten and the facets. And it seems she was satisfied with her lair because she could hatch her babies in safety - though why did she send the Dragon Baby elsewhere is "beyond my comprehension" (not true, though I can't think of any good ideas at the moment) - and because it's a great place to hide from anyone *coughElderDragonscough*.

ADDENDUM:

@ Underlined part: have you ever looked up in the mission? Did you see the center where Glint is/was? I always thought that it's an energy beam that serves as the cage/wall to keep Glint inside/to make the journey to her much more harder (so you couldn't just fly/shadowsetep in). Either way, I think that stuff does it's function quite well.

Edited by Thalador, 29 December 2009 - 01:30 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

What you say is not true as well. Yeah, I thought that all the facets in the mission share their names with the one in the Path to Revelations quest series. However, 5 of those facets resemble to the GW:EN ones in power. I wouldn't be so hasty to say that those "dragons" were there to test us. Remember: Glint told the things in the way she saw it fitting, thus maybe it was another trick.

I suppose you only say that, because you still think that Glint is the sixth and most powerful Elder Dragon and she divided her power and gave it to the gods. :p

Though your doubt is right. It could be ture, although very unlikely. Jeff was quite straight about this.

I have no definitive opinion on what Glint is. But Jeff never brings up the elder dragons in correlation to the facets (he answered two questions - one was on the elder dragons, the other was on the facets, so don't combine the two). He merely states that the facets in EN take a draconic shape because of the gods' power. What makes it a forced fact that the gods' power is from the elder dragons? Nothing. The gods' power could be from Glint, it could be from Rotscale, it could even be from an unknown draconic source. We cannot tell at this time, so just because we know Glint could be lying and just because "the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed" does not mean the power of the gods come from the elder dragons. There are many possibilities.

My previous random thought on Glint and the gods' origin (which also included the Celestials and Kuunavang) is just as possible as the common unproven conception of the gods' power coming from the elder dragons.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

And there was another in this forum, though Konig locked it because it was another thread about the Elder Dragons. We (you and I) had a lengthy discussion about the connection of Glint, the Elder Dragons and the gods. I don't know where do the locked threads go but I hope they don't get deleted. You also brought up Quintus' conspiracy theory there.

@ Konig, if you don't mind please find that thread and merge it with The Powerful Dragons of Tyria thread. Any other solution - like putting it into the archives - is appreciated.

Locked threads don't move at all unless moved by a moderator, which was not done. I didn't merge the threads because it would mess up the discussions' order. I'll look through the locked threads to see if any are archive worthy (or maybe just move single discussions if they don't conflict with posts in Free Runner's thread).

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Okay, so I read the Forgotten Gate Keeper's dialogue. I'll post here everything just to make quoting faster.

First, he seems a little bit creepy/loony. Like someone who's luring you into a trap, or lying to you.

But the most important thing of all: Don't you find it weird, that he's the only Forgotten in the mission who's not hostile towards you? His brothers are going to be slain - many of them - yet he just opens the way to them and to Glint.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole mission was just another trick to get rid of Glint's prisoners.

Firstly, on the loony bit - why not have some people act a little loony? If you were guarding a place for centuries, wouldn't you become bored and start acting loony? I probably would just to get laughs out of others' expressions... just a little fun.

As for the hostility, that is because he is answering your questions, while the others are the trial. And who's to say they won't get resurrected?

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

What's more, what you said, Drax, could be quite the case. After all, we know one Forgotten who was suborned and thus tainted by the foul magic of the gemstones, and there's another forgotten who was corrupted by Dhuum. Also, we have Thenemi who would gladly betray you if that would save him from death. There are many traitorous, corrupted or coward Forgotten, why would be it surprise for us if the Gate Keeper is one of them?

You speak as if the Forgotten are viewed to be a benevolent and perfect race on a whole. They are as fallible as humans and any other race, how does this help or harm your case?

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Of course, this does not rule out the possibility that Glint is a "good guy", however, it strengthens the possibility that she was a "convict" and she wanted us to get rid of her prisoners.

Though the Forgotten are guarding her (even from the Charr's view this is the case - see: The Ecology of the Charr), if anything, Glint is the prisoner. Which clearly isn't the case.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

In Leon's motto: "We must doubt everything" (that is uncertain). And trust me, this is.

Glint's origin and intention is, however, the fact that the Forgotten guard her, and the Forgotten are allied with the gods, is rather solid. For now.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Have you ever looked up in the mission? Did you see the center where Glint is/was? I always thought that it's an energy beam that serves as the cage/wall to keep Glint inside/to make the journey to her much more harder (so you couldn't just fly/shadowsetep in). Either way, I think that stuff does it's function quite well.

Just to note: The thing which is above Glint's room is a series of rings (6 to be exact) around a giant crystal which light up one by one as the Facets are killed. This, however, does not help Thalador's belief as this fits perfectly with what the Forgotten (not Glint, thus not likely a lie by Jeff's statement!) said - the facets are the defenses to get to Glint, not the defenses to keep Glint in there.


Thalador, to be honest, nothing really supports your idea. All you did was "this Forgotten is lying/corrupted!" which twists the whole mission into your view, but is there any support for the Forgotten to lie or it being corrupted? Just because he acts a tad off the sane side doesn't mean he isn't sane. He acts the same way as quite a few Reapers to be honest... Going to call them corrupted and lying now? :p

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

I have no definitive opinion on what Glint is. But Jeff never brings up the elder dragons in correlation to the facets (he answered two questions - one was on the elder dragons, the other was on the facets, so don't combine the two). He merely states that the facets in EN take a draconic shape because of the gods' power. What makes it a forced fact that the gods' power is from the elder dragons? Nothing. The gods' power could be from Glint, it could be from Rotscale, it could even be from an unknown draconic source. We cannot tell at this time, so just because we know Glint could be lying and just because "the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed" does not mean the power of the gods come from the elder dragons. There are many possibilities.

No comment.

Kill Ten Rats interview said:

Kerrsh’s quest line in Eye of the North (ending with the quest The Path to Revelations) is a hotly debated topic on the lore forums. Why are the facets of the human gods depicted as dragons? Can the gods’ cryptic message be explained in terms of Guild Wars 2?

Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.

(Just try to put these things together.)

Konig Des Todes said:

Locked threads don't move at all unless moved by a moderator, which was not done. I didn't merge the threads because it would mess up the discussions' order. I'll look through the locked threads to see if any are archive worthy (or maybe just move single discussions if they don't conflict with posts in Free Runner's thread).

Thank you very much.

Konig Des Todes said:

Firstly, on the loony bit - why not have some people act a little loony? If you were guarding a place for centuries, wouldn't you become bored and start acting loony? I probably would just to get laughs out of others' expressions... just a little fun.

True, however, these guys did not become loony and they have guarded Abaddon (+ they were in the Realm of Torment, where everyone can easily become maddened) and his allies for nearly a millenia (and there are still many more).

Konig Des Todes said:

As for the hostility, that is because he is answering your questions, while the others are the trial. And who's to say they won't get resurrected?

If you think of it, they ran out of the time when resurrection could be still possible (even lorewise) and we never see the Forgotten Gate Keeper enter the portal just to resurrect the fallen.

Konig Des Todes said:

You speak as if the Forgotten are viewed to be a benevolent and perfect race on a whole. They are as fallible as humans and any other race, how does this help or harm your case?

*Sigh* Quite the opposite. I've just shown you that they are easily corrupted/bribed just like humans. Which helps my case in the way that the Forgotten Gate Keeper could've been easily corrupted/bribed.

Konig Des Todes said:

Though the Forgotten are guarding her (even from the Charr's view this is the case - see: The Ecology of the Charr), if anything, Glint is the prisoner. Which clearly isn't the case.

And who the hell says that it was Glint who called them back to duty? It could've been the "gods" - as that time was before Exodus - as well. Why? To sheperd the humans or any other creatures as their main task was that during those times.

Quote

Glint's origin and intention is, however, the fact that the Forgotten guard her, and the Forgotten are allied with the gods, is rather solid. For now.

I was speaking of only one Forgotten here. Namely, the Forgotten Gate Keeper.

Konig Des Todes said:

Just to note: The thing which is above Glint's room is a series of rings (6 to be exact) around a giant crystal which light up one by one as the Facets are killed. This, however, does not help Thalador's belief as this fits perfectly with what the Forgotten (not Glint, thus not likely a lie by Jeff's statement!) said - the facets are the defenses to get to Glint, not the defenses to keep Glint in there.

Just to note: I'm here, so you don't have to speak of me in third person. :p

And couldn't the Gate Keeper tell you what to do in order to get to Glint and take the facets (the locks in this theory) out of the picture?

And to make the theory better, 'prison' is not the operative word here. She might be in a house arrest, where they watch her every move. (Think of the Scepter of Orr as she took(?) it in Hell's Precipice. She might've not done that if the Forgotten and the facets were still alive.)

Konig Des Todes said:

Thalador, to be honest, nothing really supports your idea. All you did was "this Forgotten is lying/corrupted!" which twists the whole mission into your view, but is there any support for the Forgotten to lie or it being corrupted? Just because he acts a tad off the sane side doesn't mean he isn't sane. He acts the same way as quite a few Reapers to be honest... Going to call them corrupted and lying now?

Do I really need that? Of course not! I'm not here to make my theory perfect. I'm here to hone my English, debate and lore skills. And of course to provide as much doubt as I can, so the community won't love you and make you another Quintus. Man, someone called you a loremaster yesterday, and you're really getting closer to become the next "Quintus Antonius" - though I don't know how terrible his reign was, I've just heard those stories. (He didn't seem that bad though. I think he spoke in the manner which mesmerized people and made them accept his theories without a question.

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

No comment.

(Just try to put these things together.)

Perhaps you should look at the first line. Dragons are power. Not only elder dragons. The second part is on the the cryptic message, in conjunction with the third part which you did not show. Basically that second part you underlined in the response was the premise for the real answer to the second question.

Thus it does not automatically mean the gods got their power from the elder dragons. Just some dragon or dragons.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

True, however, these guys did not become loony and they have guarded Abaddon (+ they were in the Realm of Torment, where everyone can easily become maddened) and his allies for nearly a millenia (and there are still many more).

Not every prison guard is loony, but some can. Every being is different, doesn't mean an unusual case is somehow special.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

If you think of it, they ran out of the time when resurrection could be still possible (even lorewise) and we never see the Forgotten Gate Keeper enter the portal just to resurrect the fallen.

And how would you know that the keeper doesn't follow us? Perhaps he does, but we don't see it. And how would you know the time limit for resurrection? You're speaking as is unknowns are known.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

*Sigh* Quite the opposite. I've just shown you that they are easily corrupted/bribed just like humans. Which helps my case in the way that the Forgotten Gate Keeper could've been easily corrupted/bribed.

But nothing supports that the Keeper was corrupted or influenced. The first part I agreed with, but it in fact doesn't help your argument, just because someone can be corrupted, doesn't mean they are.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

And who the hell says that it was Glint who called them back to duty? It could've been the "gods" - as that time was before Exodus - as well. Why? To sheperd the humans or any other creatures as their main task was that during those times.

There is in fact a discrepency in when the Forgotten moved to the Crystal Desert. The Ecology of the Charr says they went to the Crystal Desert before Ascalon was founded - this is impossible since the Crystal Desert wasn't formed until the Exodus and Ascalon was formed before the Exodus. The Timeline (which I think is the actual date) says the Forgotten left to the desert in 174 AE. So the time was not before the Exodus, but after.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

I was speaking of only one Forgotten here. Namely, the Forgotten Gate Keeper.

However, there is nothing to contradict what is said. Which was my point. I was talking about all Forgotten. And until you have something which actually says the gate keeper was not telling the truth, your speculation contradicts what we know.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Just to note: I'm here, so you don't have to speak of me in third person. :p

And couldn't the Gate Keeper tell you what to do in order to get to Glint and take the facets (the locks in this theory) out of the picture?

And to make the theory better, 'prison' is not the operative word here. She might be in a house arrest, where they watch her every move. (Think of the Scepter of Orr as she took(?) it in Hell's Precipice. She might've not done that if the Forgotten and the facets were still alive.)

Firstly, I was speaking to those that are not you, Thalador, which is far greater than those who are you, which is just one person. :p

The rest, goes with what I said just above this quote.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Do I really need that? Of course not! I'm not here to make my theory perfect. I'm here to hone my English, debate and lore skills. And of course to provide as much doubt as I can, so the community won't love you and make you another Quintus. Man, someone called you a loremaster yesterday, and you're really getting closer to become the next "Quintus Antonius" - though I don't know how terrible his reign was, I've just heard those stories. (He didn't seem that bad though. I think he spoke in the manner which mesmerized people and made them accept his theories without a question.

Except for a few cases like Chthon, it was less of him (the only bad thing I noticed he did was connect everything to the Mursaat), and more of those who believed every word he said and not contradict what he said. I on the other hand try to contradict what others say, even when I agree with them, in order to prevent a single view being made on a subject.

How I view it, I am really the opposite of Quintus - the only similarity is that we write in the same manner (more or less), we just have different focuses, interests, and most importantly, ways of doing things.

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

Perhaps you should look at the first line. Dragons are power. Not only elder dragons. The second part is on the the cryptic message, in conjunction with the third part which you did not show. Basically that second part you underlined in the response was the premise for the real answer to the second question.

Thus it does not automatically mean the gods got their power from the elder dragons. Just some dragon or dragons.

It's time to end this "theory" once and for all.

Let's examine the MotW and Jeff's statement on the dragons:

The Movement of the World said:

These were both caused by the surfacing of ancient powers— true dragons, more dangerous than anything Tyria has ever known before. Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before. These mystic and terrifying creatures rival the gods themselves.

Logic, man, logic! Ree was point-blank-obvious that the Elder Dragons came before Kuunavang and Glint, much more powerful than them and they are the true dragons.

If you can put these together, then you'll get to the conclusion that Glint could not have been "the most powerful Elder Dragon", because of many bloody, obvious reasons (I'll list a few):

- She is young, compared to the Elder ones.
- The Elder Dragons came before them (Glint and Kuunavang) -> thus the most obvious connection between them and the True Dragons is cousinship.
- Ree states that Glint and Kuunavang are lesser powers compared to the True Dragons.

Secondly, they rival the gods themselves (and for the time being it seems that they are even stronger than the gods - and don't play that "Chris isn't in the lore team" card out because that's not worthy from a lorist), so it would make no sense if the gods - if they achieved their power by sapping the power of the Dragons - got their power from a weaker entity. And if you would try to argue, take a look on the MotW again.

Okay, I think this was enough, now to Jeff's statement(s).

Kill Ten Rats Interview said:

Which came first to the world of Tyria, the elder dragons or the human gods (current pantheon or predecessor pantheons)? Do they have any prior relationship, especially since the human gods created Glint, a dragon, to shepherd their creations?

The Dragons, as we said, have always been here. The gods predate the humans, but not by much. Much of what we know about Glint comes from Glint herself. The truth of the matter may be very different, and she has her own reasons for saying what she has said.

Kerrsh’s quest line in Eye of the North (ending with the quest The Path to Revelations) is a hotly debated topic on the lore forums. Why are the facets of the human gods depicted as dragons? Can the gods’ cryptic message be explained in terms of Guild Wars 2?

Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.

It is possible that the cryptic message refers to the Dragons – “a land unwaking” could be the risen kingdom of Orr, and answers to the origin of the dragons do lie there.

First, Glint was mentioned in a rather different question. Then, Ravious didn't even say that the facets in EN share Glint's skin. Why? Because that is the generic shape of the European Dragon. They could've implemented Kuunavang's skin, but that would have been a little bit weird. I think a lot of people are aware that those facets got the skin of Glint because that's the model has the greatest similarity to the Elder Dragons, what's more, if they had created Zhaitan's or Primordus' skin and put those into the game, everyone would have got to the conclusion that the gods got their power from the True Dragons. However, I repeat: if they got their power from the Elder Dragons (though that's the most logical possibility).

Secondly, Jeff says dragons are power. Yes, it could lead to some misunderstandings, but I think everyone would say that he meant: "Elder Dragons are power". (I know, you believe that your brain is much more better than ours, but it's mere logic.) Plus, if you take a close look on the following sentence, you can notice that Jeff used the term 'places of power' right after saying that "Dragons are power". However, the most interesting thing of all is, that under those particular places of power there were/are Elder Dragons. I hope you can now see the connection and acknowledge that the gods' power couldn't have originated from a weaker being than the gods.

Konig Des Todes said:

And how would you know that the keeper doesn't follow us? Perhaps he does, but we don't see it. And how would you know the time limit for resurrection? You're speaking as is unknowns are known.

If you can prove otherwise, just let me know. Until then, the likeliest possibility is, that those poor Forgotten died.

Konig Des Todes said:

But nothing supports that the Keeper was corrupted or influenced. The first part I agreed with, but it in fact doesn't help your argument, just because someone can be corrupted, doesn't mean they are.

Though my reasoning increased the chance - that he was corrupted - a bit. And thus, I just want to show everyone that even the Prophecies could have been another trick from Glint.

Konig Des Todes said:

There is in fact a discrepency in when the Forgotten moved to the Crystal Desert. The Ecology of the Charr says they went to the Crystal Desert before Ascalon was founded - this is impossible since the Crystal Desert wasn't formed until the Exodus and Ascalon was formed before the Exodus. The Timeline (which I think is the actual date) says the Forgotten left to the desert in 174 AE. So the time was not before the Exodus, but after.

Indeed. (This is not over yet.)

Konig Des Todes said:

However, there is nothing to contradict what is said. Which was my point. I was talking about all Forgotten. And until you have something which actually says the gate keeper was not telling the truth, your speculation contradicts what we know.

Oh, so now contradictions of unstable lore are not allowed as well? :surprised:

Okay, I'll watch my tongue, Quintus... sorry, did I call you Quintus? My apology. :p :D :devil:

Konig Des Todes said:

Except for a few cases like Chthon, it was less of him (the only bad thing I noticed he did was connect everything to the Mursaat), and more of those who believed every word he said and not contradict what he said. I on the other hand try to contradict what others say, even when I agree with them, in order to prevent a single view being made on a subject.

How I view it, I am really the opposite of Quintus - the only similarity is that we write in the same manner (more or less), we just have different focuses, interests, and most importantly, ways of doing things.

All I can add to this: From your point of view. Others may see it otherwise.

ADDENDUM:

Happy New Year!

[Courage]

Seems this topic has started quite the debate.
Anyway, some arguements against my theory some still remain for it. We will see in GW2 if there was any truth to it.
Furthermore, gentlemen, keep it civil,please. It is only a mere lore discussion.

Best wishes for 2010.


C

[Gmr Leon]

Courage said:

Furthermore, gentlemen, keep it civil,please. It is only a mere lore discussion.

Best wishes for 2010.


C

Trust me, this is civil for Konig and Thalador thus far. :p

[Konig Des Todes]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

It's time to end this "theory" once and for all.

Impossible, until denied by Anet, though let's see you true.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

The Movement of the World said:

These were both caused by the surfacing of ancient powers— true dragons, more dangerous than anything Tyria has ever known before. Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before. These mystic and terrifying creatures rival the gods themselves.

Logic, man, logic! Ree was point-blank-obvious that the Elder Dragons came before Kuunavang and Glint, much more powerful than them and they are the true dragons.

If you can put these together, then you'll get to the conclusion that Glint could not have been "the most powerful Elder Dragon", because of many bloody, obvious reasons (I'll list a few):

- She is young, compared to the Elder ones.
- The Elder Dragons came before them (Glint and Kuunavang) -> thus the most obvious connection between them and the True Dragons is cousinship.
- Ree states that Glint and Kuunavang are lesser powers compared to the True Dragons.

Secondly, they rival the gods themselves (and for the time being it seems that they are even stronger than the gods - and don't play that "Chris isn't in the lore team" card out because that's not worthy from a lorist), so it would make no sense if the gods - if they achieved their power by sapping the power of the Dragons - got their power from a weaker entity. And if you would try to argue, take a look on the MotW again.

I'll list my responses in bullet points:

• No where in the quote did I say Glint is older or as old as the elder dragons.
  
• What they are, now, is lesser. Of course, even if she isn't as strong now as she was in the past, that doesn't mean the original source of the gods wasn't Glint, and they just grew more powerful.
  
• The "most powerful dragon" was just a flash of a thought, and not the theory which you are trying to debunk. And even if I were to continue on that hypothesis (not a theory), look at the second point. Glint is weaker than the Elder Dragons now.

To expand, I'll put it in two ways, firstly, not counting my old random thought, the second, counting that. Only including the second for the sake of debating.

With the idea that Glint is the origin of the gods' power, she does not have to be older than the elder dragons. Her age is no younger than the around the year 2,000 BE (1,769 BE to be precise - which is when the gods summoned the Forgotten), which is still about 1,000 years before the first known case of humans. If the gods are older, "but not by much," than the humans, then there is still room for Glint to be older than the gods, but younger than the elder dragons. Going on that Glint is weaker than the Elder Dragons, the Movement of the World, and even Jeff, is speaking in a modern tone, not a "they have always been" tone. Meaning Glint, as she is now, is weaker and vastly different from the Elder Dragons. But even going on the concept that she was as powerful as she is now from our oldest knowledge of her (again, 1,769 BE) then there is nothing which states that Glint didn't give the gods their initial power, then the gods didn't gain power elsewhere (such as the Mists, or predecessors - Dhuum/Grenth and Abaddon/unknown predecessor, specifically).

Oh, and on the idea that the gods took power from the elder dragons, unless they took half of the dragons' power - all of the dragons and not just Zhaitan - and the dragons didn't regain that power (the last bit I doubt), then wouldn't there be an issue in that, well, the powers wouldn't be rivaling, but overpowering. But then again, taking the power of a dragon would, in fact, make the dragon weaker, which would put Glint in her current place - and still, the most powerful doesn't have to be the oldest, Glint could be the most powerful and yet the youngest, much like the Archeangel Metatron, the youngest yet strongest and highest of the angels.

What's this? I just contradicted your points there. :D:devil: Logic, right?

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Okay, I think this was enough, now to Jeff's statement(s).

Kill Ten Rats Interview said:

Which came first to the world of Tyria, the elder dragons or the human gods (current pantheon or predecessor pantheons)? Do they have any prior relationship, especially since the human gods created Glint, a dragon, to shepherd their creations?

The Dragons, as we said, have always been here. The gods predate the humans, but not by much. Much of what we know about Glint comes from Glint herself. The truth of the matter may be very different, and she has her own reasons for saying what she has said.

Kerrsh’s quest line in Eye of the North (ending with the quest The Path to Revelations) is a hotly debated topic on the lore forums. Why are the facets of the human gods depicted as dragons? Can the gods’ cryptic message be explained in terms of Guild Wars 2?

Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons.

It is possible that the cryptic message refers to the Dragons – “a land unwaking” could be the risen kingdom of Orr, and answers to the origin of the dragons do lie there.

First, Glint was mentioned in a rather different question. Then, Ravious didn't even say that the facets in EN share Glint's skin. Why? Because that is the generic shape of the European Dragon. They could've implemented Kuunavang's skin, but that would have been a little bit weird. I think a lot of people are aware that those facets got the skin of Glint because that's the model has the greatest similarity to the Elder Dragons, what's more, if they had created Zhaitan's or Primordus' skin and put those into the game, everyone would have got to the conclusion that the gods got their power from the True Dragons. However, I repeat: if they got their power from the Elder Dragons (though that's the most logical possibility).

Secondly, Jeff says dragons are power. Yes, it could lead to some misunderstandings, but I think everyone would say that he meant: "Elder Dragons are power". (I know, you believe that your brain is much more better than ours, but it's mere logic.) Plus, if you take a close look on the following sentence, you can notice that Jeff used the term 'places of power' right after saying that "Dragons are power". However, the most interesting thing of all is, that under those particular places of power there were/are Elder Dragons. I hope you can now see the connection and acknowledge that the gods' power couldn't have originated from a weaker being than the gods.

Again, firstly bullet points:

• Glint didn't, in fact shouldn't, have to be mentioned to be the source of power. Why? Would give it away.
  
• Your reason for Ravious not pointing out Glint's skin may not be right, but it in fact supports me more than you (more later).
  
• Dragons are power, more than just the elder dragons. Glint and Kuunavang show that they are power too, in their own way (more later).
  
• It is only natural that he would say those two places are places of power. But if a being of power is somewhere, that place will naturally be called a place of power. The CTC and Arah are not places of power which drew the elder dragons.

Now to expand:
On the first part, if Jeff wanted to keep some mystery and present some conversations like he said he enjoys reading on the forums, then he would never point blank state things which could present a good debate. Thus, Jeff had succeeded in his purpose of not saying elder or glint.

Continuing onto the actual topic, the model used with it being a typical european model in fact helps me, as I said, and harms you. This is because Anet has said (cannot find where, unfortunately) that they did not want to have the elder dragons look like the typical idea of dragons. This means, that the elder dragons will have something about them (if not just looks) that differenciate them from the typical european dragon. A counter to this, of course, would be the trailer's showing of Zhaitan. That screams typical european dragon in looks. So either it is just Zhaitan which the power comes from (which I said above, would most likely mean that the gods took power from Zhaitan) which should mean Zhaitan should be the weakest dragon - instead, he is the strongest. How can this be? Shouldn't one who is stripped of power be without power? Surely Zhaitan wasn't over twice the power he is now originally. The only way around the design of the facet being european while the source being an elder dragon is solved through the idea that Zhaitan would be impossibly strong when the gods became gods.

As for Glint and Kuunavang being power, in GW1, they are shown to be 2 of the strongest beings to fight - alongside Rotscale and the elite bosses (Urgoz, Kanaxai, Mallyx, Duncan, etc.). Alongside that, they are still dragons, and Kuunavang shows how she could give others power much like the elder dragons (though on a controlled, thus smaller, scale) and unlike any other being in Tyria (skill trainers don't count because the Celestial skills are of a unique and, supposedly in lore, powerful kind), and Glint, if this case wasn't a lie, is the only being with a proven case of foresight. And naturally, the places of power are such due to the elder dragons being there (of course there are other places of power not linked to any dragon, such as the locations of the bloodstones and Hallowed Point). Thus, if there is a dragon, which is power, even one that isn't an elder dragon, it would become a place of power. But should the dragon (elder or not) move, the place of power would no longer be such. I believe somewhere the Harvest Temple is said to have a power, though I cannot seem to find it.

On a final note: I don't say my brain is better than others. But I do know that I am cursed with above average mentality (which in fact leads to headaches...). And I was reminded of this every 6 months of my life. ~_~ I really would give up my above average IQ to just be average, and with that, give up some of my height... I hate being 6'8".

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

If you can prove otherwise, just let me know. Until then, the likeliest possibility is, that those poor Forgotten died.

Both sides are unprovable as of yet. But both sides - that is, one side being that they were resurrected (who resurrected them doesn't matter), or that they all died for good - are equally possible.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Though my reasoning increased the chance - that he was corrupted - a bit. And thus, I just want to show everyone that even the Prophecies could have been another trick from Glint.

It only increased the chance in opinion, not fact. The true chance of it being the case is unaffected.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Oh, so now contradictions of unstable lore are not allowed as well? :surprised:

It isn't so much that they are not allowed, it is that they hold less sway and that they should not be the basis of a hypothesis.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Okay, I'll watch my tongue, Quintus... sorry, did I call you Quintus? My apology. :p :D :devil:

All I can add to this: From your point of view. Others may see it otherwise.

I've already said "How I view it" which is the same as "from my point of view" - of course others will disagree with me, this is bound to happen, not because I am wrong or right, but because I'm a figure of authority, which has a natural disliking feature (there are many people who liked me before I was a mod who suddenly went "RAWR MOD GET HIM!" at me, both in game and on GW1Guru). I think it is the mentality of "the man oppressing us" - even when such is incorrect.

Also, I suggest you look into what Quintus' reign actually was, since you don't seem to know. :p Of course, not even I know the full story of it.

Gmr Leon said:

Trust me, this is civil for Konig and Thalador thus far. :p

At least I am keeping my cool in the debates. :D

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

* No where in the quote did I say Glint is older or as old as the elder dragons.
* What they are, now, is lesser. Of course, even if she isn't as strong now as she was in the past, that doesn't mean the original source of the gods wasn't Glint, and they just grew more powerful.
* The "most powerful dragon" was just a flash of a thought, and not the theory which you are trying to debunk. And even if I were to continue on that hypothesis (not a theory), look at the second point. Glint is weaker than the Elder Dragons now.

With the idea that Glint is the origin of the gods' power, she does not have to be older than the elder dragons. Her age is no younger than the around the year 2,000 BE (1,769 BE to be precise - which is when the gods summoned the Forgotten), which is still about 1,000 years before the first known case of humans. If the gods are older, "but not by much," than the humans, then there is still room for Glint to be older than the gods, but younger than the elder dragons. Going on that Glint is weaker than the Elder Dragons, the Movement of the World, and even Jeff, is speaking in a modern tone, not a "they have always been" tone. Meaning Glint, as she is now, is weaker and vastly different from the Elder Dragons. But even going on the concept that she was as powerful as she is now from our oldest knowledge of her (again, 1,769 BE) then there is nothing which states that Glint didn't give the gods their initial power, then the gods didn't gain power elsewhere (such as the Mists, or predecessors - Dhuum/Grenth and Abaddon/unknown predecessor, specifically).

However, what we know about the Elder Dragons is, that they are one of the largest creatures on Tyria (that we know of). The differences in size - between the True Dragons and Glint (and of course Kuunavang) - is considerable. Unfortunately, you've just admitted that Glint and Kuunavang are younger. Then - please be serious - how could they even exist? You see the problem here I suppose. We know nothing of their creation (we know about Glint's, but that information (and the source of the information ;) )) has lost much of its credibility with Jeff's statement. Thus, there had to be dragons before them - with those genetic templates - who could give birth to them (although, Glint could "give birth" to a Dragon Baby without any known male dragon interfering). I think even you would agree that the most obvious dragons who could have done that are the Elder Dragons (Primordus for Glint).

Okay, at least you agreed that they are younger. Though this made your hypothesis suffer an irreparable damage. If you follow logic, then you'll see that it is rather hard to imagine (and a religious reference means nothing) that they are younger yet stronger (it could be possible, if both Elder Dragon parents' power were given for the baby as an "inborn talent", however, this is unlikely as well, as the dragons are fighting even each other, so the chances are high that they fought during their last wakefulness -> why would they mate?). So, the most possible event is, that the Elder Dragon could've "given birth" for Glint without the interference of another dragon (perhaps the dragons are hermaphrodites), like she may've done it in the time of GW1. However, then Glint could've only inherited one Dragon's power -> she would never become more powerful than her parent('s', but then there's a slight chance that she could).

They are younger and weaker, and there's no reference/source to what you keep posting: there's no 'now' neither in the MotW nor in Jeff's dialogue.

In summary:

• Considerable differences in size and power
  
  
• They are younger -> chances are that the only connection between them and the True Dragons is be cousinship
  
  
• No reference or source that their power status was different in the past
  
  
• Lack of corruptive ability*
  
  
• They do not bleed magic*
  
  
• There's almost no eveidence that they've created gods or Celestials.

*Though Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders could be minions.

And where did I say that she's not older than the gods? I never denied that, what's more it seems that it's a fact.

And here's this:

Ghostly Hero said:

Yes. She was the first of all creatures on Tyria, created by the gods to be the caretaker, but it became clear that she needed help. That is when they summoned the creatures known now only as the Forgotten.

She needed help, thus she was still that weak before 1769 BE. And tell me, how's that, that she didn't control the gods? If she did give them their power then why didn't she "plant" some part of her self into those "shards" and "take over" the gods.

Konig Des Todes said:

Oh, and on the idea that the gods took power from the elder dragons, unless they took half of the dragons' power - all of the dragons and not just Zhaitan - and the dragons didn't regain that power (the last bit I doubt), then wouldn't there be an issue in that, well, the powers wouldn't be rivaling, but overpowering. But then again, taking the power of a dragon would, in fact, make the dragon weaker, which would put Glint in her current place - and still, the most powerful doesn't have to be the oldest, Glint could be the most powerful and yet the youngest, much like the Archeangel Metatron, the youngest yet strongest and highest of the angels.

First, no need for religious nonsense.

And you've already answered the question. It would seem that the "gods" just harnessed enough power/energy to become much more powerful. They've not stripped the dragons' power nor half of it. If you drain someone's energy (if you could) then the person would regain that power in a matter of time. And I still haven't mentioned the hypothesis on a link between the dragons and the Mists, that the dragons could draw more power from a limitless energy source to "fuel" themslves.

Konig Des Todes said:

What's this? I just contradicted your points there. Logic, right?

I laughed hard on this. :D

No, you didn't. You just brought your usual points and used your cryptic way and tried to disprove mine. I tell you this: it failed utterly. :cool:

Konig Des Todes said:

Again, firstly bullet points:

* Glint didn't, in fact shouldn't, have to be mentioned to be the source of power. Why? Would give it away.
* Your reason for Ravious not pointing out Glint's skin may not be right, but it in fact supports me more than you (more later).
* Dragons are power, more than just the elder dragons. Glint and Kuunavang show that they are power too, in their own way (more later).
* It is only natural that he would say those two places are places of power. But if a being of power is somewhere, that place will naturally be called a place of power. The CTC and Arah are not places of power which drew the elder dragons.

Now to expand:
On the first part, if Jeff wanted to keep some mystery and present some conversations like he said he enjoys reading on the forums, then he would never point blank state things which could present a good debate. Thus, Jeff had succeeded in his purpose of not saying elder or glint.

Continuing onto the actual topic, the model used with it being a typical european model in fact helps me, as I said, and harms you. This is because Anet has said (cannot find where, unfortunately) that they did not want to have the elder dragons look like the typical idea of dragons. This means, that the elder dragons will have something about them (if not just looks) that differenciate them from the typical european dragon. A counter to this, of course, would be the trailer's showing of Zhaitan. That screams typical european dragon in looks. So either it is just Zhaitan which the power comes from (which I said above, would most likely mean that the gods took power from Zhaitan) which should mean Zhaitan should be the weakest dragon - instead, he is the strongest. How can this be? Shouldn't one who is stripped of power be without power? Surely Zhaitan wasn't over twice the power he is now originally. The only way around the design of the facet being european while the source being an elder dragon is solved through the idea that Zhaitan would be impossibly strong when the gods became gods.

As for Glint and Kuunavang being power, in GW1, they are shown to be 2 of the strongest beings to fight - alongside Rotscale and the elite bosses (Urgoz, Kanaxai, Mallyx, Duncan, etc.). Alongside that, they are still dragons, and Kuunavang shows how she could give others power much like the elder dragons (though on a controlled, thus smaller, scale) and unlike any other being in Tyria (skill trainers don't count because the Celestial skills are of a unique and, supposedly in lore, powerful kind), and Glint, if this case wasn't a lie, is the only being with a proven case of foresight. And naturally, the places of power are such due to the elder dragons being there (of course there are other places of power not linked to any dragon, such as the locations of the bloodstones and Hallowed Point). Thus, if there is a dragon, which is power, even one that isn't an elder dragon, it would become a place of power. But should the dragon (elder or not) move, the place of power would no longer be such. I believe somewhere the Harvest Temple is said to have a power, though I cannot seem to find it.

You just think that it harms me. In fact, it left me unaffected. And I think the source is the Art of Guild Wars 2 (though I still haven't got it, a blog on a fansite which is ran by my countrymen listed several points from the book - only a few points as it was allowed by Regina) and there tehy said that they gave the dragons a more serpentine look.

Now that I think of it, it didn't even help you (maybe it left you unaffected as well) as they could still have European Dragon skins (with a few exceptions like Jormag) but have some serpentine features. :p

On the Zhaitan topic, please revisit the above part of the post.

Indeed, although if you look at the MotW, you can see that Ree says "lesser powers". Thus, you're right - I didn't deny it, I think - but that phrase has a purpose. To show that Glint and Kuunavang differ from the Elder Dragons in many ways, but to imply a connection between them and the True Dragons *coughcousinshipcough*.

I have just said they are power, but much lesser. "Even" a pocket dimenison is such a place of power - as it is quite a remarkable feat. However, with power, Jeff was referring to places where Elder Dragons are/were. There's a large difference in Glint's/Kuunavang's power and the Elder Dragons' power, thus the whole phrase about power was meant for the True Dragons' power.

Konig Des Todes said:

On a final note: I don't say my brain is better than others. But I do know that I am cursed with above average mentality (which in fact leads to headaches...). And I was reminded of this every 6 months of my life. ~_~ I really would give up my above average IQ to just be average, and with that, give up some of my height... I hate being 6'8".

I think you just need to get rid of your above the avarage ego and you wouldn't get headaches.

Konig Des Todes said:

Both sides are unprovable as of yet. But both sides - that is, one side being that they were resurrected (who resurrected them doesn't matter), or that they all died for good - are equally possible.

Not equally, but close to equal. Would you say that those Forgotten in the Crystal Desert were resurrected as well?

Konig Des Todes said:

I've already said "How I view it" which is the same as "from my point of view" - of course others will disagree with me, this is bound to happen, not because I am wrong or right, but because I'm a figure of authority, which has a natural disliking feature (there are many people who liked me before I was a mod who suddenly went "RAWR MOD GET HIM!" at me, both in game and on GW1Guru). I think it is the mentality of "the man oppressing us" - even when such is incorrect.

Also, I suggest you look into what Quintus' reign actually was, since you don't seem to know. Of course, not even I know the full story of it.

I don't know when did you became a mod, but trust me, I don't hate you because of it. I think I didn't even debate with you until you attacked me in GW1Guru. You should decrease your ego and you would do well. That's all.

Gmr Leon said:

Trust me, this is civil for Konig and Thalador thus far.

:D

Konig Des Todes said:

At least I am keeping my cool in the debates.

LOL. :D

[Konig Des Todes]

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']However, what we know about the Elder Dragons is, that they are one of the largest creatures on Tyria (that we know of). The differences in size - between the True Dragons and Glint (and of course Kuunavang) - is considerable.[/QUOTE]And Jormag is considerably smaller than Kralkatorrik. What is to say that there couldn't be smaller beings from that time period? Again, size is not everything.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Unfortunately, you've just admitted that Glint and Kuunavang are younger. Then - please be serious - how could they even exist? You see the problem here I suppose. We know nothing of their creation (we know about Glint's, but that information (and the source of the information ;) ) has lost much of its credibility with Jeff's statement). Thus, there had to be dragons before them - with those genetic templates - who could give birth to them (although, Glint could "give birth" to a Dragon Baby without any known male dragon interfering). I think even you would agree that the most obvious dragons who could have done that are the Elder Dragons (Primordus for Glint).[/QUOTE]In this aspect, there had to be dragons before the Elder Dragons. And there is no issue I see, to be honest. They are younger, okay? Doesn't mean they are related, but it doesn't mean they cannot be related either. It doesn't harm, nor help, either side, to be honest.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Though this made your hypothesis suffer an irreparable damage.[/QUOTE]I repeat again [U]it was a random thought, not a hypothesis, not a theory, just a random thought I stated, that Glint was a (former) elder dragon.[/U]

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']If you follow logic, then you'll see that it is rather hard to imagine (and a religious reference means nothing) that they are younger yet stronger (it could be possible, if both Elder Dragon parents' power were given for the baby as an "inborn talent", however, this is unlikely as well, as the dragons are fighting even each other, so the chances are high that they fought during their last wakefulness -> why would they mate?).[/QUOTE]religious references do mean something. It means that it has been thought up before. A son may be stronger than his dad, if the son works out more than his father. Magic has not shown itself to be a purely natural and unchanging power within a being. This is in fact shown to be the opposite - as the PCs, and even henchmen, travel they grow stronger, magically and physically. Why can this not be the same with Glint? Why couldn't she have "worked out" (whatever it would be that she would do) to end up stronger than the other dragons?

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']So, the most possible event is, that the Elder Dragon could've "given birth" for Glint without the interference of another dragon (perhaps the dragons are [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodites"]hermaphrodites[/URL]), like she may've done it in the time of GW1. However, then Glint could've only inherited one Dragon's power -> she would never become more powerful than her parent('s', but then there's a slight chance that she could).[/QUOTE]You mean asexual. Hermaphordite means inbetween male and female - neither one nor the other (example: having boobs but also the male genetals). Asexual means being able to reproduce alone.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']They are younger and weaker, and there's no reference/source to what you keep posting: there's no 'now' neither in the MotW nor in Jeff's dialogue.[/QUOTE]But there is no "ever" either, thus giving leeway and allowing other views. Your view is not confirmed nor infallible. Neither is mine, but mine is just as possible.

And to prevent confusion that you refuse to drop because of one random thought: My view is that Glint, in some way, is the source of the gods' power.

This doesn't mean she is an elder dragon, this doesn't mean she was once far more powerful than she is now, this doesn't mean anything except that the looks of the facets in EN can be taken literally as can the similarities between those 6 facets and the Dragon's Lair's facets. While with your view, that the gods' power originates from one or more of the elder dragons, those can not be taken for granted yet.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] In summary:

• Considerable differences in size and power
  
• They are younger -> chances are that the only connection between them and the True Dragons is be cousinship
  
• No reference or source that their power status was different in the past
  
• Lack of corruptive ability*
  
• They do not bleed magic*
  
• There's almost no eveidence that they've created gods or Celestials.

*Though Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders could be minions.[/QUOTE]To summarize the above:

• Size means nothing. Power is something, but for my real view, not the one you're forcing on me, power is uneffective in the immediate stance.
  
• Younger means nothing, they could be younger, but lived during the same timeframe (for isntance, they could be younger by 100 years, but Glint/Kuuna/Rotscale lived during the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and the elder dragons).
  
• If one is evil, they corrupt, if one is good, they don't. Kuunavang and Glint show signs of being good, and one does show signs of a controlled "corruption" (though not physical) - in the form of celestial skills. Along with that, if my real hypothesis is remotely correct, then Glint could of "corrupted" the gods, and possibly even Kuunavang "corrupted" the Celestials.
  
• The elder dragons are only known to "bleed magic" when in hibernation. We don't know if they do when awake. Also, the lack of bleeding magic could be due to being weaker.
  
• That could be due to it being a "omgwtfspoilerz!" that Anet doesn't want to reveil, but there obviously is enough evidence to support a hypothesis - just not enough to support a theory.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']And where did I say that she's not older than the gods? I never denied that, what's more it seems that it's a fact.[/QUOTE]You didn't, I was bringing it up as support for my defense.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']And here's this:

She needed help, thus she was still that weak before 1769 BE. And tell me, how's that, that she didn't control the gods? If she did give them their power then why didn't she "plant" some part of her self into those "shards" and "take over" the gods.[/QUOTE]"All we know of glint comes from her."

Honestly, you use that line to deframe her, yet it can also be used in the known negative aspects as well. :p

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']First, no need for religious nonsense.[/QUOTE]Examples are examples no matter the source. If it has been thought up before, then it is possible to be thought up again.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] And you've already answered the question.[/QUOTE]That is because it was a rhetorical question.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I laughed hard on this. :D

No, you didn't. You just brought your usual points and used your cryptic way and tried to disprove mine. I tell you this: it failed utterly. :cool:[/QUOTE]Actually, I did counter your points, but you refuse to acknowledge them because you still believe I hold to the random thought (the whole connection to the elder dragons), and not my real thought.

This is not a rehash of Abaddon here. It isn't "the elder dragons did/caused it!" on everything that is done. I didn't try to disprove your points, I just pointed out how in a couple cases you were wrong (european dragon idea, still cannot find the interview where that was said though :/), and I defended mine.

Oh, and how is stating my defense in a simple bullet-point manner cryptic? I mean, how much more point blank can you get than how I put my points? My expansion might have been "cryptic," but not the actual points...

Your lack of saying that I did disprove your points (even if you rebacked them up) is proof of your stubborness. And you insult me with such petty things. You make me laugh.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You just think that it harms me. In fact, it left me unaffected. And I think the source is the Art of Guild Wars 2 (though I still haven't got it, a blog on a fansite which is ran by my countrymen listed several points from the book - only a few points as it was allowed by Regina) and there tehy said that they gave the dragons a more serpentine look.

Now that I think of it, it didn't even help you (maybe it left you unaffected as well) as they could still have European Dragon skins (with a few exceptions like Jormag) but have some serpentine features. :p[/QUOTE]It certainly doesn't harm me, like you were trying to do. And that is all I needed.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Indeed, although if you look at the MotW, you can see that Ree says "lesser powers". Thus, you're right - I didn't deny it, I think - but that phrase has a purpose. To show that Glint and Kuunavang differ from the Elder Dragons in many ways, but to imply a connection between them and the True Dragons *coughcousinshipcough*.

I have just said they are power, but much lesser. "Even" a pocket dimenison is such a place of power - as it is quite a remarkable feat. However, with power, Jeff was referring to places where Elder Dragons are/were. There's a large difference in Glint's/Kuunavang's power and the Elder Dragons' power, thus the whole phrase about power was meant for the True Dragons' power.[/QUOTE]Firstly, I doubt any biological connection between any of the elder "dragons." Secondly, you are not Jeff, how can you know what he meant? He could of meant either case, or one we have yet to think of! Stop assuming you know the minds of the devs. And yes, Glint and kuunavang are far less powerful than the elder dragons. I do not deny this, as I stated in my last post. However, they are still powerful beings. And as such, can one be certain, without doubt and without a counter, that the line only means the elder dragons? No! You may think it is certain, but my very argument proves otherwise! Even if I end up being wrong, you still cannot be certain and without doubt of it. Which is, in fact, all I'm trying to show (because you're repeating Quintus' acts, just focusing on the elder dragons instead of the mursaat - something Leon has called "dragonitist").

Also, why do you call them true dragons, when they are never called such and cannot really be called that since, well, they aren't really dragons, just draconic.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I think you just need to get rid of your above the avarage ego and you wouldn't get headaches.[/QUOTE]I think you need to get rid of it more than me, as I only bring such things up when people insult me about it, like you did.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Not equally, but close to equal. Would you say that those Forgotten in the Crystal Desert were resurrected as well?[/QUOTE]Possible, but again, both sides are likely. I really don't see why Forgotten would help the murderers of their brethering, and I am not just talking about the allied one in Dragon's Lair. But the 2 quest Forgotten in the Crystal Desert, and the one in the Desolation, and the many in the Realm of Torment.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I don't know when did you became a mod, but trust me, I don't hate you because of it. I think I didn't even debate with you until you attacked me in GW1Guru. You should decrease your ego and you would do well. That's all.[/QUOTE]You need to do the same. You are more like me than you want to admit. And that may be why we don't get along. Of course, my ego only gets in the way when I have to defend my personal self. Attack my theories and I'll defend them cool headedly like I have been. Attack me, and my ego and pride step in, even if I know the argument is futile due to it being "over the interwebz" - and there are chances I loose my cool, such as the time you repeatedly insulted me for not giving sway to my theories and not listening to others when I already point blankedly showed you times when I did just that.

[Thalador]

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']And Jormag is considerably smaller than Kralkatorrik. What is to say that there couldn't be smaller beings from that time period? Again, size is not everything.[/QUOTE]

With creatures as big and dangerous as Zhaitan I doubt, but possible. Although, you clearly miss the words "youths" and "ancients" in the MotW. What's my point with that? It implies that there's a larger difference in age between the two "Dragon factions". Plus, we don't know the real size of Jormag (I suppose he'll be retconed "utterly"). And again: we can't see Kralkatorrik in full, that spiked stuff could be a shell around his body which he can drop off when he awakes.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']In this aspect, there had to be dragons before the Elder Dragons. And there is no issue I see, to be honest. They are younger, okay? Doesn't mean they are related, but it doesn't mean they cannot be related either. It doesn't harm, nor help, either side, to be honest.[/QUOTE]

True, but I doubt that the case would be something like this. Not that it's impossible, though creatures who are older than 11,000 years and possess incredible magical abilities that rival the gods' power is the end of the line, I think. (Also, the word 'Primordus' means first of series, or something along those lines - unfortunately I've forgotten it - so it could imply that they are the very firsts ;) ).

And would you mind expressing your thoughts on how on Earth could Glint and Kuunavang exist? Because, there is an issue, whether you see it or not.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']religious references do mean something. It means that it has been thought up before. A son may be stronger than his dad, if the son works out more than his father. Magic has not shown itself to be a purely natural and unchanging power within a being. This is in fact shown to be the opposite - as the PCs, and even henchmen, travel they grow stronger, magically and physically. Why can this not be the same with Glint? Why couldn't she have "worked out" (whatever it would be that she would do) to end up stronger than the other dragons?[/QUOTE]

And how? You made me curious.

However, you forgot that "little" bit that it is power, what matters. Magical power is not the same as muscle or how trained you are. Even the PCs were born with some form of that inner power (that's why they became the Chosen). It is something like an "inborn talent", that's how I see it. Putting this together, it seems highly improbable that Glint could've ever become more powerful than the True Dragons.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']You mean asexual. Hermaphordite means inbetween male and female - neither one nor the other (example: having boobs but also the male genetals). Asexual means being able to reproduce alone.[/QUOTE]

:surprised:

I think you should take a closer look on the matter again.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality"]Asexuality[/URL]

[quote name='Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia']Asexuality (also known as nonsexuality) in its broadest sense, describes lack of sexual attraction, or interest in or desire for sex. Sometimes, it is considered a lack of a sexual orientation. One commonly cited study placed the incidence rate of asexuality at 1%.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite"]Hermaphrodite[/URL]

In a biological context, a hermaphrodite is an animal or plant that has both male and female reproductive organs.[1]

[quote name='Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia']Many taxonomic groups of animals (mostly invertebrates), do not have separate sexes. In these groups, hermaphroditism is a normal condition, enabling a form of sexual reproduction in which both partners can act as the "male" or "female". For example, the great majority of pulmonate and opisthobranch snails and slugs are hermaphrodites. Hermaphroditism is also found in some fish, and to a lesser degree in other vertebrates.[/QUOTE]

In summary:

Asexuality is a sexual orientation. It means that the person has no interest in sex/mating.

Hermaphrodite means that the person/animal can reproduce without the interference of another person/animal.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']But there is no "ever" either, thus giving leeway and allowing other views. Your view is not confirmed nor infallible. Neither is mine, but mine is just as possible.

And to prevent confusion that you refuse to drop because of one random thought: My view is that Glint, in some way, is the source of the gods' power.

This doesn't mean she is an elder dragon, this doesn't mean she was once far more powerful than she is now, this doesn't mean anything except that the looks of the facets in EN can be taken literally as can the similarities between those 6 facets and the Dragon's Lair's facets. While with your view, that the gods' power originates from one or more of the elder dragons, those can not be taken for granted yet.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, but at least admit the chances. Ree was point-blank obvious, though Jeff twisted the things a little bit. Just think of it, please. For the time being my view is more possible.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']To summarize the above:

* Size means nothing. Power is something, but for my real view, not the one you're forcing on me, power is uneffective in the immediate stance.
* Younger means nothing, they could be younger, but lived during the same timeframe (for isntance, they could be younger by 100 years, but Glint/Kuuna/Rotscale lived during the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and the elder dragons).
* If one is evil, they corrupt, if one is good, they don't. Kuunavang and Glint show signs of being good, and one does show signs of a controlled "corruption" (though not physical) - in the form of celestial skills. Along with that, if my real hypothesis is remotely correct, then Glint could of "corrupted" the gods, and possibly even Kuunavang "corrupted" the Celestials.
* The elder dragons are only known to "bleed magic" when in hibernation. We don't know if they do when awake. Also, the lack of bleeding magic could be due to being weaker.
* That could be due to it being a "omgwtfspoilerz!" that Anet doesn't want to reveil, but there obviously is enough evidence to support a hypothesis - just not enough to support a theory.[/QUOTE]

I hope you know that you're close to border of twisting and contradicting what Ree said/known lore. That extremely little leeway they (Ree and Jeff) gave is far from the state to safely support your view.

Size means something here. Even Jormag is larger than those dragons. It seems power comes with size, though this is a little bit weak excuse. Though, have you every seen bones that resembles to Glint's or Kuunavang's bone structure (by that, I mean size)? Of course not! Because they are a way much younger than the Giganticus Lupicus and the Elder Dragons.

You know what? Please tell me this: almost every living being from those ancient times are dead, except the Elder Dragons, though perhaps they would've died out as well, if they hadn't entered the state of hibernation. It would make no sense if Glint and Kuunavang could've survived without entering a similar hibernation.

Please, be reasonable. 100 years makes the least of difference in age. You've contradicted what Ree said. Remember: they are 'youths' compared to the 'ancients' (hmm... in our terms Glint and Kuunavang are "teenagers", and the Elder Dragons are 80-100 years-old-"men").

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You see, if I'm holding a highly radioactive element while walking (though I'm protected) I can "infect" people and cause mutations. However, I was just trying to get rid of it because if left untouched, it would "infect" the groundwater and the earth as well (or I'm simply good :devil: ). I wanted to do good and I was good, yet I "corrupted" others.

I doubt ArenaNet would tell so much. I'm starting to think that we are both wrong. You see, even if they thought that we wouldn't figure it out, but we did, they could just come here, read our ideas, and then dump the old story.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']"All we know of glint comes from her."

Honestly, you use that line to deframe her, yet it can also be used in the known negative aspects as well.[/QUOTE]

Hmm... true. But then tell me: then why did they summon the Forgotten? :p

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Actually, I did counter your points, but you refuse to acknowledge them because you still believe I hold to the random thought (the whole connection to the elder dragons), and not my real thought.

This is not a rehash of Abaddon here. It isn't "the elder dragons did/caused it!" on everything that is done. I didn't try to disprove your points, I just pointed out how in a couple cases you were wrong (european dragon idea, still cannot find the interview where that was said though :/), and I defended mine.

Oh, and how is stating my defense in a simple bullet-point manner cryptic? I mean, how much more point blank can you get than how I put my points? My expansion might have been "cryptic," but not the actual points...

Your lack of saying that I did disprove your points (even if you rebacked them up) is proof of your stubborness. And you insult me with such petty things. You make me laugh.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you just grabbed every little leeway and put it together. I could do the same but that would make no sense either. It wasn't that hard to counter my points with those leeways.

Sorry, how did I insult you? I called you Quintus because I think you are. And I'm pretty sure that you should back off when saying "My IQ is higher than yours, people" (<- not with these words, but I think everyone got it). I didn't not insult you, but I think saying such thing is outrageous and unashamed.

Indeed, I'm stubborn, but it's because you throw every little bit that comes to your mind at me, thus I have had to search for other options. And take it easy man, this is a lore discussion, not our in-game debates. :D

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']It certainly doesn't harm me, like you were trying to do. And that is all I needed.[/QUOTE]

And it doesn't harm my case either.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Firstly, I doubt any biological connection between any of the elder "dragons." Secondly, you are not Jeff, how can you know what he meant? He could of meant either case, or one we have yet to think of! Stop assuming you know the minds of the devs. And yes, Glint and kuunavang are far less powerful than the elder dragons. I do not deny this, as I stated in my last post. However, they are still powerful beings. And as such, can one be certain, without doubt and without a counter, that the line only means the elder dragons? No! You may think it is certain, but my very argument proves otherwise! Even if I end up being wrong, you still cannot be certain and without doubt of it. Which is, in fact, all I'm trying to show (because you're repeating Quintus' acts, just focusing on the elder dragons instead of the mursaat - something Leon has called "dragonitist").

Also, why do you call them true dragons, when they are never called such and cannot really be called that since, well, they aren't really dragons, just draconic.[/QUOTE]

I give up. I can't express what I want to say better than I tried to. One last try:

Dragons are power. -> True, Glint and Kuunavang are powerful entities as well, so it's possible that Jeff meant them.

Facets reflect the nature of the power (damn! I missed this, later, in one of my future posts) that the human gods have harnessed -> Chances of Glint and Kuunavang are decreasing, but again: later.

Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons. -> Jeff clearly mentions that the two major locations are above of places of power, and those [U]powers[/U] are Elder Dragons, however Ravious didn't even mention those locations.

I'm not the Quintus here. I'd like you to accept and admit the chances of the possibilities. Nothing else. Also, you've just lost your cool.

As to why I call them true dragons? *Sigh*

Because of this:

[quote name='Movement of the World']...- true dragons, more dangerous than anything Tyria has ever known before.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']I think you need to get rid of it more than me, as I only bring such things up when people insult me about it, like you did.[/QUOTE]

I'm aware of my own problems as well. But again: saying you are better than the avarage people in a public way is outrageous.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']You need to do the same. You are more like me than you want to admit. And that may be why we don't get along. Of course, my ego only gets in the way when I have to defend my personal self. Attack my theories and I'll defend them cool headedly like I have been. Attack me, and my ego and pride step in, even if I know the argument is futile due to it being "over the interwebz" - and there are chances I loose my cool, such as the time you repeatedly insulted me for not giving sway to my theories and not listening to others when I already point blankedly showed you times when I did just that.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to insult you if you'll stop implying (in-game) that you're better than me or anyone else...

[Konig Des Todes]

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']With creatures as big and dangerous as Zhaitan I doubt, but possible. Although, you clearly miss the words "youths" and "ancients" in the MotW. What's my point with that? It implies that there's a larger difference in age between the two "Dragon factions". Plus, we don't know the real size of Jormag (I suppose he'll be retconed "utterly"). And again: we can't see Kralkatorrik in full, that spiked stuff could be a shell around his body which he can drop off when he awakes.[/QUOTE]Firstly, on the Zhaitan comment, I doubt you'd see a T-Rex go after a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoraptor"]Eoraptor[/URL] - a large predator requires larger food, thus if Glint lived even near the end of the GL's time, the elder dragons would go after the Giganticus Lupicus over Glint.

Secondly, the age of Glint is not important, as long as she is older than the gods.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']True, but I doubt that the case would be something like this. Not that it's impossible, though creatures who are older than 11,000 years and possess incredible magical abilities that rival the gods' power is the end of the line, I think. (Also, the word 'Primordus' means first of series, or something along those lines - unfortunately I've forgotten it - so it could imply that they are the very firsts ;) ).[/QUOTE]Primordus could simply be named such because he was the first to awaken. He could be the oldest of his race/group. Doesn't mean he is the oldest thing on Tyria.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] And would you mind expressing your thoughts on how on Earth could Glint and Kuunavang exist? Because, there is an issue, whether you see it or not.[/QUOTE]You mean how on Tyria. :p Kidding, of course (kind of). How would you explain the existence of the Elder Dragons? Forgotten? Humans? Charr? Anything, really. This is an entirely different topic and in the debate which I am focusing on (since you're focusing on an [U]old and pointless[/U] thought of mine which is [U]no longer a thought of mine[/U]), it is irrelevant to the initial cause.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] And how? You made me curious.

However, you forgot that "little" bit that it is power, what matters. Magical power is not the same as muscle or how trained you are. Even the PCs were born with some form of that inner power (that's why they became the Chosen). It is something like an "inborn talent", that's how I see it. Putting this together, it seems highly improbable that Glint could've ever become more powerful than the True Dragons.[/QUOTE]Firstly, they didn't become Chosen, they were always Chosen. But again, I am not saying Glint was more powerful than the elder dragons.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']:surprised:

I think you should take a closer look on the matter again.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality"]Asexuality[/URL]

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite"]Hermaphrodite[/URL]

In a biological context, a hermaphrodite is an animal or plant that has both male and female reproductive organs.[1]

In summary:

Asexuality is a sexual orientation. It means that the person has no interest in sex/mating.

Hermaphrodite means that the person/animal can reproduce without the interference of another person/animal.[/QUOTE]*sigh* [quote name='Dictionary.com']a·sex·u·al (ā-sěk'shōō-əl)
adj.
1. Having no evident sex or sex organs; sexless.
2. Relating to, produced by, or involving reproduction that occurs without the union of male and female gametes, as in binary fission or budding.[/quote]asexual means to reproduce without a mate, or to be genderless. Hence the entire confusion that is [URL="http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/why-arent-sylvari-asexuali-t243.html"]this thread[/URL].

[quote name='Dictionary.com']her⋅maph⋅ro⋅dite /hɜrˈmæfrəˌdaɪt/ –noun
1. an individual in which reproductive organs of both sexes are present. Compare pseudohermaphrodite.
2. Biology. an organism, as an earthworm or plant, having normally both the male and female organs of generation.
3. a person or thing in which two opposite qualities are combined.
–adjective
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a hermaphrodite.
5. combining two opposite qualities.
6. Botany. monoclinous. [/quote]No reproduction stated here.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Indeed, but at least admit the chances. Ree was point-blank obvious, though Jeff twisted the things a little bit. Just think of it, please. For the time being my view is more possible.[/QUOTE]I remember an old argument, regarding Rotscale. What was it? Oh yes, pre-beta lore cannot be taken for granted! Hmm, what are you doing, oh little Thalador? Oh yes, taking pre-beta lore for granted!

Things will change, things have already changed in fact, between the Movement and the release of GW2. This could easily be one thing. If the Movement is point blank about something, yet Jeff hints at a different scenario, then the answer will not be point blank.

***However! I must say, once more, perhaps many times more until you get it, [U]we are not talking about the old random thought. Glint's age, Glint's power in comparison to the elder dragons, in fact, ANY comparison to the elder dragons is IRRELEVANT to this discussion.[/U] Why? Because the discussion is not if Glint is as strong as an elder dragon, it is not if Glint is as old as an elder dragon, nor is it if Glint is an elder dragon herself. No, it is [U]if the gods' power comes from Glint or the elder dragons[/U], nothing more.***

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I hope you know that you're close to border of twisting and contradicting what Ree said/known lore. That extremely little leeway they (Ree and Jeff) gave is far from the state to safely support your view.[/QUOTE]Seeing how what I said has no impact on the Movement of the World, and Jeff's words is what allows this to take place, this is entirely incorrect.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']It seems power comes with size, though this is a little bit weak excuse.[/QUOTE]Your right, it is a weak excuse, and I think there are dwarves and asura who'd disagree with you and say they are stronger than some humans, even the snowbeasts and dolyaks.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Though, have you every seen bones that resembles to Glint's or Kuunavang's bone structure (by that, I mean size)? Of course not! Because they are a way much younger than the Giganticus Lupicus and the Elder Dragons.[/QUOTE]***

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You know what? Please tell me this: almost every living being from those ancient times are dead, except the Elder Dragons, though perhaps they would've died out as well, if they hadn't entered the state of hibernation. It would make no sense if Glint and Kuunavang could've survived without entering a similar hibernation.

Please, be reasonable. 100 years makes the least of difference in age. You've contradicted what Ree said. Remember: they are 'youths' compared to the 'ancients' (hmm... in our terms Glint and Kuunavang are "teenagers", and the Elder Dragons are 80-100 years-old-"men").[/QUOTE]I haven't contradicted her. ***

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I wouldn't be so sure about that. You see, if I'm holding a highly radioactive element while walking (though I'm protected) I can "infect" people and cause mutations. However, I was just trying to get rid of it because if left untouched, it would "infect" the groundwater and the earth as well (or I'm simply good :devil: ). I wanted to do good and I was good, yet I "corrupted" others.[/QUOTE]The source of power is not good, what moved it was. Difference scenario.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I doubt ArenaNet would tell so much. I'm starting to think that we are both wrong. You see, even if they thought that we wouldn't figure it out, but we did, they could just come here, read our ideas, and then dump the old story.[/QUOTE]Seeing how they've said they use ideas to [U]help create[/U] stories, I doubt this.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Hmm... true. But then tell me: then why did they summon the Forgotten? :p[/QUOTE]Didn't trust Glint? Didn't want her to be the only one to watch Tyria? Maybe they didn't? That knowledge does come from Glint as well, it would seem.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Actually, you just grabbed every little leeway and put it together. I could do the same but that would make no sense either. It wasn't that hard to counter my points with those leeways.[/QUOTE]Hmmm, actually, you kind of are, because you're going immensly off topic thinking I still, or ever, hold sway over one of the hundreds of insignificant thoughts. That one, I just felt like sharing. I never said I believe that to be the case, ever.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Indeed, I'm stubborn, but it's because you throw every little bit that comes to your mind at me, thus I have had to search for other options. And take it easy man, this is a lore discussion, not our in-game debates. :D[/QUOTE]I always view that lore discussions should be more focused on than in-game debates because the lore discussions are automatically saved while in-game debates are not, and thus to me is the time to brainstorm, not show real arguments.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']And it doesn't harm my case either.[/QUOTE]A bit egotistical if you think it was meant to harm your case. Not everything needs to be a counter, things can just be a defense.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Facets reflect the nature of the power (damn! I missed this, later, in one of my future posts) that the human gods have harnessed -> Chances of Glint and Kuunavang are decreasing, but again: later.

Both the Asuran Central Transfer Chamber and the City of Arah were built on places of power, which turned out to be directly over Elder Dragons. -> Jeff clearly mentions that the two major locations are above of places of power, and those [U]powers[/U] are Elder Dragons, however Ravious didn't even mention those locations.[/QUOTE]Firstly, where's the later part? Elder Dragons are powers, I admit this, as I cannot deny it, but that does not mean that Glint and Kuunavang are not powers. In fact, all it says about places of powers, is that they are such [U]because[/U] of the Elder dragons!

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I'd like you to accept and admit the chances of the possibilities. Nothing else. Also, you've just lost your cool.[/QUOTE]I've lost my cool in this post, not the last. And I know the possibilities, I've admitted them multiple times.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Sorry, how did I insult you? I called you Quintus because I think you are. And I'm pretty sure that you should back off when saying "My IQ is higher than yours, people" (<- not with these words, but I think everyone got it). I didn't not insult you, but I think saying such thing is outrageous and unashamed.[/QUOTE]Explained this in game.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I'm aware of my own problems as well. But again: saying you are better than the avarage people in a public way is outrageous.[/QUOTE]Again, I am not saying I am better than the average person. If I am saying that I am better than anyone, then I am only saying such about you, and only that I control my ego a bit more in that I only let it show when people insult me directly. And I doubt truth that doesn't point anyone out is outrageous. I am not saying I am better than anyone. I have mentioned one thing: My IQ, for all I know, the "average" has in fact changed in the idea that people are averaging above the supposed average (which is 100). That is, that the average for the IQ testing is out of date. I do not know if this is the case, thus I cannot say that my IQ is above the average person, no! I say that it is above the average that the testing lables! In other words, I only said that my IQ is above 100 - nothing more!

So I will be smarter than some, I will be dumber than others. This is the case for every living being. I have said nothing outrageous.

[Thalador]

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Firstly, on the Zhaitan comment, I doubt you'd see a T-Rex go after a Eoraptor - a large predator requires larger food, thus if Glint lived even near the end of the GL's time, the elder dragons would go after the Giganticus Lupicus over Glint.

Secondly, the age of Glint is not important, as long as she is older than the gods.[/QUOTE]

The most important thing here is, that Glint's age does count!

And secondly: that's far from the truth. Glint is a predator, so if she would've entered Zhaitan's territory she had been killed in no time. What does a predator do with other preadators who cross paths with it? It kills them.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Primordus could simply be named such because he was the first to awaken. He could be the oldest of his race/group. Doesn't mean he is the oldest thing on Tyria.[/QUOTE]

True, but the possibility still stands.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']You mean how on Tyria. Kidding, of course (kind of). How would you explain the existence of the Elder Dragons? Forgotten? Humans? Charr? Anything, really. This is an entirely different topic and in the debate which I am focusing on (since you're focusing on an old and pointless thought of mine which is no longer a thought of mine), it is irrelevant to the initial cause.[/QUOTE]

Hmm... I think it's another pleasant topic that we can discuss. I'm not throwing it away, so let's just keep it. (Also, look at the title of the thread.)

Oh, and poor Konig hasn't got the slightest idea (by that, I mean hypothesis) how Glint was created. Poor guy.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Firstly, they didn't become Chosen, they were always Chosen. But again, I am not saying Glint was more powerful than the elder dragons.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, a little mistake. So now you at least admit it. But tell me: how can you even hope to explain this: then how on Jupiter did the human gods become more powerful than her when she's weaker than the True Dragons and the human gods rival the dragons in power? :p

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']*sigh*

asexual means to reproduce without a mate, or to be genderless. Hence the entire confusion that is this thread.

No reproduction stated here.[/QUOTE]

*Sigh* :p

Words are changing constantly. And Wikipedia is a more reliable source. Not that it's perfect, but it contains much knowledge and it is oversaw by professional people.

Again, asexuality is a sexual orientation. But true, it is used as a synonim for hermaphorditism as well - just checked every dictionary - though the official term is hermaphrodite to describe creatures that don't need a "partner" to reproduce.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']I remember an old argument, regarding Rotscale. What was it? Oh yes, pre-beta lore cannot be taken for granted! Hmm, what are you doing, oh little Thalador? Oh yes, taking pre-beta lore for granted![/QUOTE]

You're so "cute" (change the word for something more fitting, but I didn't want to insult you :p ) when you try to harm my case. :D

Little Konig, you could've checked that Rotscale was in the beta, and not pre-beta, but... never my mind.

Also, The Movement of the World is the "spine" of GW2 lore. Without it, we would have murky stuff that couldn't be called lore. Yes, some informations have changed and it will still change, but a large percentage what is written there can be taken for granted. :)

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']***However! I must say, once more, perhaps many times more until you get it, we are not talking about the old random thought. Glint's age, Glint's power in comparison to the elder dragons, in fact, ANY comparison to the elder dragons is IRRELEVANT to this discussion. Why? Because the discussion is not if Glint is as strong as an elder dragon, it is not if Glint is as old as an elder dragon, nor is it if Glint is an elder dragon herself. No, it is if the gods' power comes from Glint or the elder dragons, nothing more.***[/QUOTE]

I'm starting to pity you. And I hope you know that you've failed. You've lost your cool/head in general discussion. :)

I think we should discuss this topic as well.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Seeing how what I said has no impact on the Movement of the World, and Jeff's words is what allows this to take place, this is entirely incorrect.[/QUOTE]

:zzz:

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']but lived during the same timeframe (for isntance, they could be younger by 100 years, but Glint/Kuuna/Rotscale lived during the time of the Giganticus Lupicus and the elder dragons).[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Your right, it is a weak excuse, and I think there are dwarves and asura who'd disagree with you and say they are stronger than some humans, even the snowbeasts and dolyaks.[/QUOTE]

You keep mixing strength and power continuously. I put it in a better way: that size is concomitant of such power (I hope it was understandable, but if not, see Abaddon, Dhuum, the gods on the picture which depicts Doric's plea, and the Elder Dragons).

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']I haven't contradicted her.[/QUOTE]

Oh, you had, you had. If yout think that seriously then you had.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Didn't trust Glint? Didn't want her to be the only one to watch Tyria? Maybe they didn't? That knowledge does come from Glint as well, it would seem.[/QUOTE]

Erm... I don't know but the Ghostly Hero doesn't seem too draconic for me. Now if he was told by Glint, that's what you wanted to say. However, what if he was told by the Forgotten when he was a spirit? Though, who the hell told him about Glint?

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Hmmm, actually, you kind of are, because you're going immensly off topic thinking I still, or ever, hold sway over one of the hundreds of insignificant thoughts. That one, I just felt like sharing. I never said I believe that to be the case, ever.[/QUOTE]

So now you say you don't. Well, it's not off topic from my point of view (look at the title again), so you were just wildly throwing back what I said.... :zzz:

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Firstly, where's the later part? Elder Dragons are powers, I admit this, as I cannot deny it, but that does not mean that Glint and Kuunavang are not powers. In fact, all it says about places of powers, is that they are such because of the Elder dragons![/QUOTE]

Erm... seriously, are you all right?

[quote name='Me']Dragons are power. -> True, Glint and Kuunavang are powerful entities as well, so it's possible that Jeff meant them.[/QUOTE]

Not the exact wording, but still the same.

And I said later, I must work it out. However, it is interesting that Kormir's facet appeared as a dragon as well. Is it a coincidence, or she "inherited" the power of the very first "god" who harnessed the power of a dragon?

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']I've lost my cool in this post, not the last. And I know the possibilities, I've admitted them multiple times.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. You lost your cool in this and in your previous post as well.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

(because you're repeating Quintus' acts, just focusing on the elder dragons instead of the mursaat - something Leon has called "dragonitist").

Still reading over the discussion, but to pop in here, I don't recall ever calling the focus on the Elder Dragons that.

[Konig Des Todes]

[quote name='Gmr Leon']Still reading over the discussion, but to pop in here, I don't recall ever calling the focus on the Elder Dragons that.[/QUOTE]Was my second spirits/undead thread over on GWO. I don't recall the exact wording.

Found it, you said "Ancient Dragon syndrome" - eh.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']The most important thing here is, that Glint's age does count![/QUOTE]In the topic of whether it was Glint or the elder dragons who the gods gained their powers from, beyond whether or not Glint is older than the gods, it does not.

But do tell me, why does it matter? All you've said is how the age is different, never have you stated why you've been stating the difference. That is, except to debunk [U]a hypothesis I don't agree with[/U] while believing I do.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']And secondly: that's far from the truth. Glint is a predator, so if she would've entered Zhaitan's territory she had been killed in no time. What does a predator do with other preadators who cross paths with it? It kills them.[/QUOTE]Who ever said Glint went into Zhaitan's territory though? IF Glint is that old, and IF she was on par to the Elder Dragons in the past, [U]something I have no opinion of[/U], Glint would of been a predator there on her own, and there would of been no elder dragon in the area. Assuming, that is, she was in the spot of where her lair is now (just not in a pocket dimension). If this is so, it might give an explanation to why Kralkatorrik flew south.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']True, but the possibility still stands.[/QUOTE]Never said it wasn't. Though I doubt the elder dragons are the oldest beings.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Also, look at the title of the thread.[/QUOTE]I think the thread has been derailed from the original topic. I might split it into its own thread soon enough. So stop with the "title of the thread" argument (from in game).

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] Oh, and poor Konig hasn't got the slightest idea (by that, I mean hypothesis) how Glint was created. Poor guy.[/QUOTE]In essence, the beginning of everything was created by the Mists. If the being is not from the Mists, their lineage would be traced to the Mists - even if created by something from the Mists. How Glint herself, in this topic that we're currently discussing, not the topic title, is not that relevant.

Now if we were to go back to the original topic...

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Sorry, a little mistake. So now you at least admit it. But tell me: how can you even hope to explain this: then how on Jupiter did the human gods become more powerful than her when she's weaker than the True Dragons and the human gods rival the dragons in power? :p[/QUOTE]Overthrowing other beings, such as Dhuum, or Abaddon's "predecessor" - could it not be that they didn't preceed each other, but instead lower the number of gods? There is also the chance of destroying the random powerful enemy (for instance, the Great Destroyer for the Great Dwarf). There are many explanations, all on the idea of constant power-stealing.

And the explanation for why Dhuum wasn't killed is then showed: Grenth gained energy from so many others, starting with Glint, that he didn't have room for all the power Dhuum held.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']*Sigh* :p

Words are changing constantly. And Wikipedia is a more reliable source. Not that it's perfect, but it contains much knowledge and it is oversaw by professional people.

Again, asexuality is a sexual orientation. But true, it is used as a synonim for hermaphorditism as well - just checked every dictionary - though the official term is hermaphrodite to describe creatures that don't need a "partner" to reproduce.[/QUOTE]"Wikipedia is a more reliable source" - am I the only one who finds this completely humorous? And honestly, I hear asexual being used far more, such as just about every biology class I ever had, for reproduction without a mate.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You're so "cute" (change the word for something more fitting, but I didn't want to insult you :p ) when you try to harm my case. :D

Little Konig, you could've checked that Rotscale was in the beta, and not pre-beta, but... never my mind.

Also, The Movement of the World is the "spine" of GW2 lore. Without it, we would have murky stuff that couldn't be called lore. Yes, some informations have changed and it will still change, but a large percentage what is written there can be taken for granted. :)[/QUOTE]Wouldn't pre-beta be, in fact, a worse case of stable lore than beta? You are, in fact, only harming your own credibility. Though you obviously refuse to see it. You back up on your own statements and use one thing when it works for you, then go on the opposing side when it doesn't.

And I'd say the backbone for GW2 lore (that's the actual term used for the phrase, not spine :p) would be GW1. The Movement would be the molding for GW2's lore (yeah, going away from the bones analogy).

But me? I'm just saying that your starting to contradict yourself in this, not that the Movement is unreliable (I'm actually using this contradiction you've made to bring support from your own words that the GW1 beta lore can be taking with more than just a grain of salt).

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I'm starting to pity you. And I hope you know that you've failed. You've lost your cool/head in general discussion. :)

I think we should discuss this topic as well.[/QUOTE]The original topic has been replaced with what I just said, which is what I've been trying to discuss, while you kept going on about things which, as far as I see, are irrelevant to the immediate discussion. You constantly say they are important and relevant, yet you don't explain why they are. And I did lose my cool, in just the last post, because your repeating the same things, as if repeating the same things will null what I said.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You keep mixing strength and power continuously. I put it in a better way: that size is concomitant of such power (I hope it was understandable, but if not, see Abaddon, Dhuum, the gods on the picture which depicts Doric's plea, and the Elder Dragons).[/QUOTE]Strength is power (but note that not all power is in the form of strength). But you're still not entirely correct. Let's take this: Dhuum is more powerful than Abaddon, yet Abaddon is far larger than Dhuum. Kanaxai is far more powerful than many many beings, yet he is between human and Norn size (if I am correct). Wurms are huge, but yet they are not more powerful than, say, Duncan, or the reapers. Size is not always representative of power.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Oh, you had, you had. If yout think that seriously then you had.[/QUOTE]Howso? If I have, it would be via the age argument, which would be the 100 years comment (which was just a [U]random example[/U]).

However, the Movement of the World is written from a human view. Thus, what may not be an "ancient difference" from the dragons' perspective, it could easily be such from a human - thus the Movement's - perspective.

With both of those facts in mind, I haven't.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Erm... I don't know but the Ghostly Hero doesn't seem too draconic for me. Now if he was told by Glint, that's what you wanted to say. However, what if he was told by the Forgotten when he was a spirit? Though, who the hell told him about Glint?[/QUOTE]Where did I ever say the Ghostly Hero was draconic? I basically was saying that the knowledge that the gods brought the Forgotten (which is pre-human history) is possible to come from Glint or the Forgotten themselves. In fact, that can be said for all pre-human history of the world.

Also, I doubt Turai Ossa (aka the Ghostly Hero) is the only person who knows of Glint. I'm sure he knew of Glint before the Pilgrimage even.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']So now you say you don't. Well, it's not off topic from my point of view (look at the title again), so you were just wildly throwing back what I said.... :zzz:[/QUOTE]When did I ever say that I believe that random thought in the time since I spouted it out?

As for the title of the thread, I've covered that above.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Erm... seriously, are you all right?

Not the exact wording, but still the same.

And I said later, I must work it out. However, it is interesting that Kormir's facet appeared as a dragon as well. Is it a coincidence, or she "inherited" the power of the very first "god" who harnessed the power of a dragon?[/QUOTE]You made the later sound like "later in this post." Oh, and powerful entities does not always mean power.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I beg to differ. You lost your cool in this and in your previous post as well.[/QUOTE]Actually, I didn't lose my cool in the post before my last... Tell me, do you think I lost my cool because I bolded my key points? :p That isn't losing one's cool, that is making sure the key words/phrases/points/sentences (whichever) is seen. Emotion doesn't carry properly through text, so trust me when I say if I lost my cool one time, but not another.

[MartynThompson]

nah i dont think there is a dragon in jade sea and i hope not
could make sense because it says somewhere that its a sea again??
was pretty epich ow waves were frozen solid

[Thalador]

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']In the topic of whether it was Glint or the elder dragons who the gods gained their powers from, beyond whether or not Glint is older than the gods, it does not.

But do tell me, why does it matter? All you've said is how the age is different, never have you stated why you've been stating the difference. That is, except to debunk a hypothesis I don't agree with while believing I do.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, you still don't see my point.

- Glint is younger (age does count, it can easily imply that she is less powerful than the Elder Dragons, if she is one(?) of their offspring*) than the Elder Dragons but older than the gods.

- Even if she isn't an Elder Dragon offspring, she is still weaker and younger than them.

- My point is, to show that the chances of Glint giving the power of the gods are extremely low (though higher than the MPB drop rate ;) ).

-> Because, if she's weaker than the True Dragons, she can't create beings who rival the the Dragons in power.

(But it's possible, though again: the chances are extremely low.)

* You keep misunderstanding me, Glint is a young Elder Dragon in my hypothesis.

What's more, I'd like to discuss Glint's origin, and her possible connection to the Elder Dragons. A hypothesis you haven't presented so far, only in the form of a "brainstorm".

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Who ever said Glint went into Zhaitan's territory though? IF Glint is that old, and IF she was on par to the Elder Dragons in the past, something I have no opinion of, Glint would of been a predator there on her own, and there would of been no elder dragon in the area. Assuming, that is, she was in the spot of where her lair is now (just not in a pocket dimension). If this is so, it might give an explanation to why Kralkatorrik flew south.[/QUOTE]

That's the point: there can be no bones found which resemble Glint's bone structure, thus it is quite sure that there was no other dragon race other than the Elder Dragons. Then, it's quite the contradiction that they lived in the same time.

Though would you explain Kralkatorrik's motive more precisely?

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Never said it wasn't. Though I doubt the elder dragons are the oldest beings.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, probably the first creatures were microorganisms a few billion years ago. ;)

Though I think they are the firsts of the largest, oldest and most powerful beings on Tyria.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']I think the thread has been derailed from the original topic. I might split it into its own thread soon enough. So stop with the "title of the thread" argument (from in game).[/QUOTE]

Who the hell cares that I said that in game? It's still my opinion, and until you create a seperate thread or merge it with the Powerful Dragons of Tyria to continue the discussion on Glint and the Elder Dragons I'll post all of my thoughts on the topic (thread title :) ) even if you commit a suicide. :cool:

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']In essence, the beginning of everything was created by the Mists. If the being is not from the Mists, their lineage would be traced to the Mists - even if created by something from the Mists. How Glint herself, in this topic that we're currently discussing, not the topic title, is not that relevant.[/QUOTE]

-.- I believe you're quite satisfied with yourself now. True, it can be traced back to the Mists, however, I was talking about Glint's "indirect" origin here (how was she born, for example) and not the origin of her material and spirit.

I don't like people who derail from the question - though they know what the question was - and give "witty" answers to detour the thread/discussion in the way they want it.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Overthrowing other beings, such as Dhuum, or Abaddon's "predecessor" - could it not be that they didn't preceed each other, but instead lower the number of gods? There is also the chance of destroying the random powerful enemy (for instance, the Great Destroyer for the Great Dwarf). There are many explanations, all on the idea of constant power-stealing.[/QUOTE]

First, that's still only the power enough for one god and not for six or as many as was. Then this is one of the wildest speculation I've ever seen. Not that it can't be true, but basing it on almost nothing is not the right way of proving your truth.

As my second point, I'd like to note that the Great Dwarf never killed the Great Destroyer, only took and sealed his name and thus stripped his power. He didn't take the Great Destroyer's power, just took what gave him his power.

However, I like this idea much more. Not that she created gods, but she may've helped the god-wannabes in slaying powerful beasts and maybe taught them how to "steal" those "beasts/creatures" power.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']And the explanation for why Dhuum wasn't killed is then showed: Grenth gained energy from so many others, starting with Glint, that he didn't have room for all the power Dhuum held.[/QUOTE]

You make excellent fan fictions, did you know that? Where's the proper backing, though?

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']"Wikipedia is a more reliable source" - am I the only one who finds this completely humorous? And honestly, I hear asexual being used far more, such as just about every biology class I ever had, for reproduction without a mate.[/QUOTE]

In cases such as this, it is. Perhaps you Americans use the word which describes more the sexual orientation than the animal who can reproduce without another animal, but in these regions (and outside my country as well) we use hermaphrodite. And yes, both meanings are accepted.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Wouldn't pre-beta be, in fact, a worse case of stable lore than beta? You are, in fact, only harming your own credibility. Though you obviously refuse to see it. You back up on your own statements and use one thing when it works for you, then go on the opposing side when it doesn't.[/QUOTE]

It's amazing how you miss points. All we have for GW2 is the MotW, interviews, the description of the races and the trailer (perhaps I missed something). Also, the MotW makes up a large percentage of GW2 lore. [U]Until it is proven otherwise by the devs or by the game, it can be taken for granted.[/U]

*I'm not harming my credibility, nor I don't see anything that would contradict me.

The quest, Slay Rotscale was removed, thus only its memory remains. And what did I see in the Scribe? That his lore was modified/altered, it's not the same again. You should give up attempts of destabilizing or destroying my credibility. I tell you something: It doesn't work.

And never I've declared that beta lore is not canon, I just implied, then "retreated" to the point that until proven otherwise, I will be 99% sure that it's not canon.* I remember that I gave you some questions that you should ask from Linsey. Any luck?

Oh, and where's the locked thread you were saying to recover?

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']And I'd say the backbone for GW2 lore (that's the actual term used for the phrase, not spine ) would be GW1. The Movement would be the molding for GW2's lore (yeah, going away from the bones analogy).[/QUOTE]

True, sorry for the bad comparison.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']But me? I'm just saying that your starting to contradict yourself in this, not that the Movement is unreliable (I'm actually using this contradiction you've made to bring support from your own words that the GW1 beta lore can be taking with more than just a grain of salt).[/QUOTE]

-.- :zzz: *

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']The original topic has been replaced with what I just said, which is what I've been trying to discuss, while you kept going on about things which, as far as I see, are irrelevant to the immediate discussion. You constantly say they are important and relevant, yet you don't explain why they are. And I did lose my cool, in just the last post, because your repeating the same things, as if repeating the same things will null what I said.[/QUOTE]

So now you can judge what is relevant or not and what is the actual discussion? Good job, Qui... uhm ... Konig.

And I think I've just told you the answer for the 'why' at the very beginning of this post.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Strength is power (but note that not all power is in the form of strength). But you're still not entirely correct. Let's take this: Dhuum is more powerful than Abaddon, yet Abaddon is far larger than Dhuum. Kanaxai is far more powerful than many many beings, yet he is between human and Norn size (if I am correct). Wurms are huge, but yet they are not more powerful than, say, Duncan, or the reapers. Size is not always representative of power.[/QUOTE]

On the first point, you're definitely incorrect. Abaddon was chained, and we had the gods' blessing on our hides. If you remember, with dancing you disgrace the gods and when they remove it, Abaddon kills you in a matter of seconds. Dhuum was the God of Death, yet he couldn't kill us in a second.

Then, Duncan was strong, but not powerful in the way you want to use it. Certainly, he had a lot of health and influence to keep such strong slaves, but aside from Duncan's Defense he was a dwarf Ritualist "on steroids". Yet, if he had harnessed the Great Destroyer's power, he could've become powerful but what if the power would've caused mutations and he might've become just as big as the Great Destroyer?

Kanaxai is not a god, but a demon. And if I recall it correctly, he is taller than a Norn.

But in some cases you're right.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Howso? If I have, it would be via the age argument, which would be the 100 years comment (which was just a random example).

However, the Movement of the World is written from a human view. Thus, what may not be an "ancient difference" from the dragons' perspective, it could easily be such from a human - thus the Movement's - perspective.

With both of those facts in mind, I haven't.[/QUOTE]

No, not your example, but this:

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']but lived during the same timeframe - snip -[/QUOTE]

You did, with this.

And you're wrong with the "ancient difference". Decimus/Ree clearly said that their awakeining reaches back into the time of the Giganticus Lupicus, which strongly implies that he/she is fully aware that the Dragons are more than 11,000 years old. Thus, it's quite sure that he/she meant the "ancient difference" for such large differences in age/time.

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Where did I ever say the Ghostly Hero was draconic? I basically was saying that the knowledge that the gods brought the Forgotten (which is pre-human history) is possible to come from Glint or the Forgotten themselves. In fact, that can be said for all pre-human history of the world.

Also, I doubt Turai Ossa (aka the Ghostly Hero) is the only person who knows of Glint. I'm sure he knew of Glint before the Pilgrimage even.[/QUOTE]

You misunderstood, Turai isn't Glint, so maybe (just maybe) he knows a different tale. One thing is sure, he believed what the others said about Glint's creation, though the reason for the Forgottens arrival on Tyria could originate from a more reliable source than Glint or the gods.

You made me curious, would you explain how did he know of Glint before the Pilgrimage?

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']You made the later sound like "later in this post." Oh, and powerful entities does not always mean power.[/QUOTE]

Well, I meant that, so it's your bad, not mine. :p

And I didn't make it sound like that:

[quote name='Me']in one of my future posts[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Konig Des Todes']Actually, I didn't lose my cool in the post before my last... Tell me, do you think I lost my cool because I bolded my key points? That isn't losing one's cool, that is making sure the key words/phrases/points/sentences (whichever) is seen. Emotion doesn't carry properly through text, so trust me when I say if I lost my cool one time, but not another.[/QUOTE]

Increased useage of bolding, underlining can mean that you're angry (trust me on that one, as I used it quite often for that purpose :p ), also your style and your sentence structure changed in your last two posts before this one. And if I remember correctly - though perhaps I'm wrong - you made mistakes, which you don't do too often. :p

[Konig Des Todes]

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Unfortunately, you still don't see my point.

- Glint is younger (age does count, it can easily imply that she is less powerful than the Elder Dragons, if she is one(?) of their offspring*) than the Elder Dragons but older than the gods.

- Even if she isn't an Elder Dragon offspring, she is still weaker and younger than them.

- My point is, to show that the chances of Glint giving the power of the gods are extremely low (though higher than the MPB drop rate ;) ).

-> Because, if she's weaker than the True Dragons, she can't create beings who rival the the Dragons in power.

(But it's possible, though again: the chances are extremely low.)

* You keep misunderstanding me, Glint is a young Elder Dragon in my hypothesis.

What's more, I'd like to discuss Glint's origin, and her possible connection to the Elder Dragons. A hypothesis you haven't presented so far, only in the form of a "brainstorm".[/quote]Firstly, I'm only discussing the possibility that Glint is the source of the gods - which doesn't need Glint to be an elder dragon (and wouldn't that rather go against what you've been saying at first? Especially since you said she isn't originally...). Secondly, we don't know how strong she was in the past, however, I already explained how she could be the source of the gods' power without being as powerful as the gods.

There is, of course, also the possibility that the gods are far weaker than we think. Glint is about as powerful as Abaddon and Dhuum. What if those two aren't weakened from just releasing themselves from their personal prison?

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']That's the point: there can be no bones found which resemble Glint's bone structure, thus it is quite sure that there was no other dragon race other than the Elder Dragons. Then, it's quite the contradiction that they lived in the same time.[/quote]We don't have enough bones to make out a full Giganticus Lupicus. We have 2 skulls and 3 spines, one of which is missing a head counterpiece (and is in the Tarnished Coast area). We cannot state anything based on the known bones of the Giganticus Lupicus, simply because when those bones were made, there wasn't the idea of Elder Dragons or Glint being one of a race.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] Though would you explain Kralkatorrik's motive more precisely?[/quote]Assuming Glint lived at some point, even if younger than the other currently living elder dragons, if she was enough of the threat to keep others from her, Kralkatorrik could be seeking Glint (for revenge perhaps). With her weakened (in power is not my point here, I mean in the pocket dimension, it may seem that she is no more, or very weakened, to a recently awakened being).

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Yeah, probably the first creatures were microorganisms a few billion years ago. ;)

Though I think they are the firsts of the largest, oldest and most powerful beings on Tyria.[/quote]Oldest is without a doubt, if you mean oldest living. Most powerful and first of the largest, I doubt.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Who the hell cares that I said that in game? It's still my opinion, and until you create a seperate thread or merge it with the Powerful Dragons of Tyria to continue the discussion on Glint and the Elder Dragons I'll post all of my thoughts on the topic (thread title :) ) even if you commit a suicide. :cool:[/quote]Er, you misunderstood me, I said what I just said (what you quoted minus what was in parentheses) in game. And you can start the discussion between Glint/Elder Dragons there, seeing how this discussion is not only on that.

That is, you're trying to bring it to that, thus derailing the thread even more, while I am trying to keep it on the source of the gods' power, which has more to do with the title of the thread than what you're trying to discuss - just to use your argument against you. :p

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']-.- I believe you're quite satisfied with yourself now. True, it can be traced back to the Mists, however, I was talking about Glint's "indirect" origin here (how was she born, for example) and not the origin of her material and spirit.[/quote]No one knows this, so why word it as if your pitying me but instead taunting me. Observations of Primordus doesn't make him anything like Glint, except for the [U]top[/U] of the neck. Nothing else, really. That is, of what can be told in EN. I'll laugh if he ends up [U]nothing[/U] like Glint.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] I don't like people who derail from the question - though they know what the question was - and give "witty" answers to detour the thread/discussion in the way they want it.[/quote]I didn't derail the question, nor was it witty. I was just simply stating fact, without restating what I already stated.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']First, that's still only the power enough for one god and not for six or as many as was.[/quote]Source? Proof? Who said this? Why must this be? Hmmm? Who even said that the power of a god that we know now isn't greater than the power of a god from thousands of years ago?

Would it not be, in fact, within your views of the gods that they were just greedy power-hungry mortals who worked to gain more and more power (similar to Duncan and his goals), but (going outside your views of the gods) who were still good?

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Then this is one of the wildest speculation I've ever seen.[/quote]Nah, I'd say the idea of the elder dragons being the pure evil counter to the purely good gods and then there are 6 unkillable "elder gods" who do nothing in the universe but watch things progress is far more wild. Or perhaps the one where the bloodstones are the locks to the "cages" of the elder dragons, and that the Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists are really 2 of a set of 6 twin staves, and these staves are keys to the locks. Oh, and there is a missing bloodstone that we don't know about that is the lock for the "desert dragon" (this idea assumes that Kralkatorrik is not the desert dragon). Do note that neither of these are mine, and both are from GWO.

I think both of those are far more wild in terms of speculation.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Not that it can't be true, but basing it on almost nothing is not the right way of proving your truth.

As my second point, I'd like to note that the Great Dwarf never killed the Great Destroyer, only took and sealed his name and thus stripped his power. He didn't take the Great Destroyer's power, just took what gave him his power.

However, I like this idea much more. Not that she created gods, but she may've helped the god-wannabes in slaying powerful beasts and maybe taught them how to "steal" those "beasts/creatures" power.[/quote]It was merely an example to how the gods would gain power through more than just Glint in order to rival beings more powerful than Glint. Also, Glint would of just have been the "starting point" - she would of given power similar, but stronger, than the Celestial skills, I would assume, if this was the case, which I doubt - that is, for it to be the case word for word - I believe Glint was far stronger, or that the power of the elder dragons and gods are overestimated, even in lore statements. Afterall, if the History of Tyria could be wrong (your belief, Thalador), why can't the Movement, which is written from a human view? :P

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You make excellent fan fictions, did you know that? Where's the proper backing, though?[/quote]What your commenting on was just an expansion of the previously commented portion of my post. Much like the comment on Kralkatorrik, it was pretty much a "if this, then that" scenario. Backing? Just that if the first happened, that would (help) explain the presice situation.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']It's amazing how you miss points. All we have for GW2 is the MotW, interviews, the description of the races and the trailer (perhaps I missed something).[/quote]The Ecology of the Charr.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Also, the MotW makes up a large percentage of GW2 lore. [U]Until it is proven otherwise by the devs or by the game, it can be taken for granted.[/U][/quote]Jeff does hint at another scenario. It isn't proven, but it allows speculation which might slightly go against it. :)

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']I'm not harming my credibility, nor I don't see anything that would contradict me.[/quote]So Rotscale's lore is more likely to be canon, since nothing is proven against it? :) If not, well, you're contradicting yourself since MotW is canon since nothing contradicts it yet. *shrugs*

And no, I'm not missing any point, if you're going to say something of the like. I am not saying two different situations. They are the same situations. The only difference is that GW2 is not released yet. But the lore is made (mostly, at least - else they wouldn't announce the lore first or yet :p), so why should the release matter yet? Surely, when the game is release, if lines from the Movement are not contradicted, you'd say it is canon. Rotscale's origin (risen in the Shiverpeaks by the Stone Summit to attack Ascalon) or the Tombs of Drascir, or the events of the stories, would be canon because they are not contradicted. Same situation, one is just progressed more than the other.

Why would this ruin your credibility? Because it counts when you're using it, but when you're against it, it suddenly doesn't count.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']The quest, Slay Rotscale was removed, thus only its memory remains. And what did I see in the Scribe? That his lore was modified/altered, it's not the same again. You should give up attempts of destabilizing or destroying my credibility. I tell you something: It doesn't work.[/quote]The quest to slay him was, the mission to kill him was an alpha-only mission. The quest gave no lore. Rotscale still lives. His lore wasn't modified. He was said that he was first seen in the Shiverpeaks, which is where in he was risen. What was modified is that he wasn't killed in the Shiverpeaks, but instead moved to Kryta. So his lore still stands.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] And never I've declared that beta lore is not canon, I just implied, then "retreated" to the point that until proven otherwise, I will be 99% sure that it's not canon.* I remember that I gave you some questions that you should ask from Linsey. Any luck?[/quote]Haven't gotten a chance to talk with Linsey yet (was only 2 days and I've been busy, and she's out of town for the holidays anyways). And you have declared it uncanon, just as you declared the Scarred Earth map uncanon even though it is still around just because it was removed from HA.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Oh, and where's the locked thread you were saying to recover?[/quote]Been busy.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']So now you can judge what is relevant or not and what is the actual discussion? Good job, Qui... uhm ... Konig.[/quote]Quintus never did that, he let the discussion go whatever which way, which I try not to do. I don't let a discussion on Dhuum's speculated look go into a discussion on Abaddon's role in the exodus.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']On the first point, you're definitely incorrect. Abaddon was chained, and we had the gods' blessing on our hides. If you remember, with dancing you disgrace the gods and when they remove it, Abaddon kills you in a matter of seconds. Dhuum was the God of Death, yet he couldn't kill us in a second.[/quote]This is funny indeed! Seeing how me and drax were the only ones who said this about Abaddon and the blessing. While everyone stated that the blessing did nothing. And now you're telling me I'm wrong. Funny, I wasn't talking about Abaddon's imediate case. If Dhuum and Abaddon were both imprisoned, yet Dhuum was more powerful. Though I really wouldn't put the dancing part as canon lore, just as a possibility to why he can kill us instantly. And remember, we had the Reapers' and the Ice King's help when fighting Dhuum, perhaps there is a reason among those who guide the dead for why we didn't die, or perhaps Dhuum was just overtly arrogant, there are many possibilities.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Then, Duncan was strong, but not powerful in the way you want to use it. Certainly, he had a lot of health and influence to keep such strong slaves, but aside from Duncan's Defense he was a dwarf Ritualist "on steroids". Yet, if he had harnessed the Great Destroyer's power, he could've become powerful but what if the power would've caused mutations and he might've become just as big as the Great Destroyer?[/quote]It really sounds here that you're trying to worm your way out here...

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker'] Kanaxai is not a god, but a demon. And if I recall it correctly, he is taller than a Norn.[/quote]I've never fought him so I don't know his height, but I do know his Shadows and Aspects are about human sized.

There is also the Yeti, Giants, Ettins, Wurms, Abombinations (Bone Pits anyone?), the Four Horsemen (same size as Dhuum, give or take a bit, yet far weaker), Skeletons of Dhuum are rather human sized, yet meant to be Dhuum's "elite" forces, there is the Iron Forgeman, Hydras, Urgoz is about the size of a god (Dhuum), yet he surely isn't as powerful as them. Envoys are powerful, yet are human-sized.

And if I am still confusing strength and power, define the two, show the separation, because honestly, if one is stronger, they have more power.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']And you're wrong with the "ancient difference". Decimus/Ree clearly said that their awakeining reaches back into the time of the Giganticus Lupicus, which strongly implies that he/she is fully aware that the Dragons are more than 11,000 years old. Thus, it's quite sure that he/she meant the "ancient difference" for such large differences in age/time.[/quote]I'm curious how a human would know how old the elder dragons are. And honestly, it just sounds like an educated guess for the age, since he only relates them to the Giganticus Lupicus (which also supports the theory that Elder Dragons are Giganticus Lupicus).


[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You misunderstood, Turai isn't Glint, so maybe (just maybe) he knows a different tale. One thing is sure, he believed what the others said about Glint's creation, though the reason for the Forgottens arrival on Tyria could originate from a more reliable source than Glint or the gods.[/quote]Where are you getting Turai is Glint? And wouldn't everything we, not just us the players, but everyone in the modern time who isn't as old as Glint, be lied to? The only other source would be the Forgotten, who are servants of Glint and the gods, thus would not be entirely trustworthy if that wasn't why they were summoned. Or even they could of been lied to, that Glint didn't need help, but were told such to complete the lie that Glint is a creation of the gods.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']You made me curious, would you explain how did he know of Glint before the Pilgrimage?[/quote]He went to the Crystal Desert because of the Flameseeker Prophecies, he believed he was the chosen of the Prophecies, so he went to ascend and seek Glint. Even if he didn't go to see Glint, if the Flameseeker Prophecies were known 200 years ago, before Turai went into the Crystal Desert, then so too would Glint be known.

[quote name='Thalador Doomspeaker']Increased useage of bolding, underlining can mean that you're angry (trust me on that one, as I used it quite often for that purpose :p ), also your style and your sentence structure changed in your last two posts before this one. And if I remember correctly - though perhaps I'm wrong - you made mistakes, which you don't do too often. :p[/QUOTE]When I'm angry, I use caps, like normal people. :p And it isn't so much I was making mistakes, as either there was miscommunication, or the issue that we're discussing 2 different topics (why are you trying to derail this thread with an only dragon topic, yet using the thread title for defense of the topic?) got in the way.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

Do note that neither of these are mine, and both are from GWO.

Are you sure on that? I was pretty sure the stave as lock idea was on Guru, and I don't recall having ever read the other idea. (At least, not condensed into so few words.)

Konig Des Todes said:

Quintus never did that, he let the discussion go whatever which way, which I try not to do.

Except he didn't want you suggesting the Manuscripts were fallible.

Konig Des Todes said:

While everyone stated that the blessing did nothing. And now you're telling me I'm wrong.

I don't honestly remember putting my say in on that topic.

Konig Des Todes said:

(which also supports the theory that Elder Dragons are Giganticus Lupicus).

Which is, of course, assuming the Giganticus Lupicus weren't a single species.