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#61 Elan

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:16 PM

A little late, but behold:

The Catapult

Posted Image

Posted Image




Also, given the details they've given on Electronic Warfare and Electronic Counter Warfare, plus how the radar systems work, I'm itching for an old favorite of mine.  The Hellbringer Prime should be pretty damned useful given the LOS only radar in this game, with its ability to jam enemy data networking with its Guardian ECM and supply tons of tactical information to the team via its Beagle Active Probe.  Oh so good!

http://www.sarna.net...lbringer_(Loki)
http://www.sarna.net...44/Loki3050.JPG
http://media.moddb.c...an_movement.jpg

Edited by Elan, 13 January 2012 - 10:24 PM.


#62 dhatcher1

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:37 PM

I am enjoying World of Tanks and almost getting far enough I could join a clan that does the territory conquest metagame.  I cant wait to do the same thing in Battlemechs.  My big question is if I going to be able to eventually pilot a Vulture, and if we are going to be able to swap things like LRMs for more heavy lasers and heatsinks.  Love the Vulture with 6 heavy pulse lasers and enough heatsinks to run them non-stop.

I do hope they make ECM and probes useful so light mechs arent effectively useless when they get into battles with mediums and heavies.

Edited by dhatcher1, 13 January 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#63 ilr

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:37 PM

*drools*  Hell yeah, I LOVE missile boats.  ...the tryhards can keep their AC spamming and even LBX gats... I hate Urban zones anyway.  Give me a big hill to rain fire from and I'm a happy camper the whole day through.  Stealth Schmealth... as long as I put enough sensors on it, atleast 1 of them missiles is gonna land in a cockpit.

Edited by ilr, 13 January 2012 - 11:22 PM.


#64 Elan

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:49 PM

What they're doing is incredible.  It is absolutely making lights and scouting important.

A. Radar contacts degrade quickly once they leave your Line of Sight.

B. The Battlefield Commander can only see on the Battlegrid what info they're being fed by their team mates.

C. Equipment such as C3 allow one person's radar to send data to an ally also equipped with C3, in effect adding an extra pair of eyes for LOS.  Or more, depending on how many mechs are networked on the C3 system.

D. Deploy-able UAVs will act as temporary sensor posts to act as radar pickets.

E. Active probes allow for specific sensor modes, such as magneto, thermal, or sonic.  Thus, even if you cannot SEE an enemy mech on radar or with your mark 0 model 1's (eyeballs!), you can "see," using the special extra sensors, increased metal densities, or heat signatures, or detect footfalls or reactor sounds

Now to mess with all this?

Electronic Counter Measures!  Jams a C3 equipped mech's ability to receive or send data to allies, effectively blinding them.  Messes with active probes, as well.  Also screws with missile guidance systems something fierce.

Also supposedly some models can be used to jam other people's ECMs. CECM so to speak.

And guess which mechs tend to have one or both of these?  You guessed it!  Lights and mediums.  The scouts.  Effectively fulfilling a support role of scout and spotter perfectly.  Frankly, I think it's a beautiful thing!

#65 dhatcher1

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 10:42 AM

Elan said:

Also supposedly some models can be used to jam other people's ECMs. CECM so to speak.
Its called ECCM - Electronic Counter Counter-Measures.  Its a pretty big part of modern air warfare.

#66 Elan

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Posted 15 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

Ah. Thanks. I knew there was a second counter in there. Wasn't sure where though. XD

#67 Sirius

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:18 AM

Elan said:

The Hellbringer Prime should be pretty damned useful

Now that's what I call an accomplishment.

#68 Elan

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:27 AM

Whaaaat?  The mech has always had an insanely over the top load out for its tonnage.  Its weakness was that it only has 8 and a half tons of armor.  No game ever really made the ECM on any mech all that useful, outside of MW4, and even then it only was useful for the mech it was equipped on.  Same goes for an active probe.

#69 Coren

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 03:06 PM

OH yes :) Looks like it's shaping up quite nicely. The one 'Mech I always loved piloting was the Catapult. It stays at the back with its 2 LRM15s and can still deliver some punch close up with its 4 Medium lasers.

Does anyone know if they are bringing in a Zeus?

#70 Leyana

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 09:35 PM

Since the Zeus is pre-Clan War I'd expect so. Though since this is F2P, I'd expect *some* 'mechs to be cash shop mechs. Though if they really do pull off a 'skill is king' game design, then it shouldn't be much different from LoL putting heroes in the Cash shop.

#71 Elan

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:38 PM

In theory it should work like LoL. Except if you put two equally skilled pilots in two vastly different tonnage brackets and short of being extraordinarily lucky, the heavier machine usually wins. A superior light or medium should stand a chance against a less skilled heavy or assault, however.

Then again, I would never expect a Flea to win a fight with an Atlas no matter the conditions.

I'm sure mechs are going to be purchasable as will paint schemes and boosts for xp, but I'd also place heavier bets that most machines will be earned via pilot skill tiers and cold hard in game currency acquired through combat alone.  Like tier three Electronics Warfare as a perquisite skill for certain mechs that have a tier of ECM, plus the cost of the machine in any form, whether it's honor points, c-bills, or notoriety points.


Of course this is all speculation, but it makes more sense to me from a balance perspective if the latter is the case.

#72 Leyana

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 01:12 AM

True... all the mobility in the world isn't going to help your paper thin armour stop a shot. Since the heavier 'mech needs just one good hit. All this talk about how 'mechs and equipment are acquired leaves me wondering if there will be a salvage system in MWO. Highly likely that it'll probably be along the lines of 'MMO loot tables'.

I had forgotten about pilot skills till you brought it up again. That would be a good way to limit certain players to certain 'mechs if there were skill prerequisites.

#73 Coren

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 08:10 AM

True, you never see Victor Steiner Davion piloting anything else than his Dire Wolf/Daishi. He knows that, no matter what, a half competent MechWarrior can demolish virtually anything if put inside a killer 'Mech :)

Story and board game wise, it's true that you'd never put a novice pilot in a heavy or assault 'Mech because he'll never be able to bring it back on its feet if he fell over, so I do hope something in implemented that takes piloting skills into account.

#74 Elan

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:39 AM

Honestly, as a die hard clanner, I am itching to see how they will enforce the idea of honorable combat in the minds of clan pilots.  I would love it if "honor points" could be accrued as the clan equivalent to Riot's Influence Points.  I have always preferred a more honorable fighting style in Mechwarrior, but it was never supported or enforced in any way shape or form.

However, if, like I suggested on the MWO forums, it detected damage sources on individual mechs over a certain sample time (say, 5 second sample times), it could determine if the clan machines are sticking to individual, non-overlapping targets  to get a MASSIVE increase in the Honor Points they earn, or if the individual clan machines are being attacked by multiple hostiles at once, allowing the clan pilot to wave Zellbrigen and still get full Honor Points for the fight.

Nothing irritates me more in multiplayer Mechwarrior when you have a good duel going on, and some dezgra charges in from out of no where and either takes your hard earned kill, or simply shoots you in the back.  Of course, winning 2v1 odds should be rewarded heavily, but the odds of surviving a 2v1 or worse are often slim.

#75 ilr

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 04:41 AM

Elan said:

In theory it should work like LoL. Except if you put two equally skilled pilots in two vastly different tonnage brackets and short of being extraordinarily lucky, the heavier machine usually wins. A superior light or medium should stand a chance against a less skilled heavy or assault, however.

Then again, I would never expect a Flea to win a fight with an Atlas no matter the conditions.

I'm sure mechs are going to be purchasable as will paint schemes and boosts for xp, but I'd also place heavier bets that most machines will be earned via pilot skill tiers and cold hard in game currency acquired through combat alone.  Like tier three Electronics Warfare as a perquisite skill for certain mechs that have a tier of ECM, plus the cost of the machine in any form, whether it's honor points, c-bills, or notoriety points.


Of course this is all speculation, but it makes more sense to me from a balance perspective if the latter is the case.

Well in that case... what if they "Microtrans" Omni-slotting or allow Premiums subs more than anyone else?  ....this was a debate we've been having about Guildwars too....  when does certain kinds of customization turn into Pay2win?


(And don't tell me it's 10 years too early...  no one wants to wait out multiple Updates for that Tech, F2P or not...)

Edited by ilr, 18 January 2012 - 04:48 AM.


#76 Elan

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:16 AM

It isn't ten years too early.  It's about three months too early at launch to deal with the clans.  

Microtransing a mech, flat out, could easily become pay to win.  See: Atlas vs Flea comparison.  If they integrate internal limits on it, though, such as skill prerequisites to be 'rated' for a certain mech use, then it's essentially just paid acceleration of gear, with the pilot still needing in game experience to earn it at the sacrifice of immersion for an easier time acquiring a particular machine.

What concerns me the most is what happens when IS units start getting Clan tech.  Clan machines are self balanced by the game play the devs want to try and encourage clan players to pursue - that of taking on 2:1 odds and fighting as close to one on one as possible verses the inferior Inner Sphere machines.  Inner Sphere units have no honor rules with combat.  I can't possibly fathom how they'll balance that when push comes to shove - especially if you can simply pay to own a clan machine, loaded with clan equipment, which is between 1.5x and 2x better then equivalent IS technology.  That WOULD be pay to win.

On the other hand....

In mech4, which is by far one of the worst balanced mechwarrior game ever, I've personally demonstrated how a superior pilot can overcome a superior enemy mech.  Heavies or mediums can and will kill assault mechs if they fight smart and aim well.  It's the pilot skill that will make the largest impact.  Unfortunately, when we're talking mediums vs assaults, it's one heck of a skill gap that needs to exist between the two pilots for the outlook to be good for the medium.

#77 Leyana

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 05:27 AM

Pay2Win is when the person who shells out the cash obtains an overwhelming advantage that no amount of skill can overcome. This can be either whatever that was bought is powerful enough to invalidate skill or the game in question doesn't give a player the chance for skill to have an impact. In the former, a large advantage is needed, in the latter, a small advantage is all it takes.

In a game like MWO, if the developers are going to adhere accurately to the lore, allowing people to buy clan-tech would be P2W of sorts. Since the IS pilot will have to be pretty damned good to overcome the advantage of clan-tech.

The one big failing of the Clans was their strict adherence to zellbrigen in the face of superior IS tactics. Since many gamers aren't raised with anything resembling 'honour' I'll expect either the devs ignore the lore and allow clan-tech for everyone, or nerf initial clan-tech to be in line with IS standards.

#78 Coren

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:23 AM

I certainly hope that MWO won't be P2W. It would destroy my faith in making a decent and well balanced BattleTech game.

I'm all for maybe paying to get extra 'Mech chassis since the game it free, but giving a paying edge with Clan tech? No way.

#79 ilr

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:56 AM

Enforcing zellbrigen is basically "already a Thing" in some MMO's ... give or take the random failing of their Matchmaking systems, and exploiters who intentionally "dethreat" ... or just look at ANY PvP ladder (like that in Guildwars1) where groups of players feel it necessary to stack the odds by Syncing and Rank-whoring.  ...But loopholes aside,  it's as simple as calculating Tonnage & Skill with the secondary objectives of each Map.  All Clan objectives would need to have tigher win-conidtions than I.S., giving I.S. a guerrilla/zerg advantage.

In that situation, it would then come down to Teamwork.  A game already on the market which illustrates these dynamics very well IMO, is APB Reloaded which DOES grant a sizable advantage to Paying players, but which is then offset just as often by its unpredictable Matchmaking.  I expect that Planetside2 will also do the exact same things (only much more... successfully).  It's very complex, but to simplify it a bit: ...you effectively face much tougher Odds the more win-streaks you get. --- And the more money you pay, the more likely you are to experience longer win-streaks.   ...this is something I don't feel is as predominant in L.o.L. which takes a much more carrot based approach to incentivizing rather than a competition based one.   But knowing mech fans, they'll probably demand something that straddles both approaches.

Edited by ilr, 19 January 2012 - 10:16 PM.


#80 dhatcher1

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 05:00 PM

This game is sounding very much like World of Tanks.  World of Tanks does have some cash shop only tanks that are considered P2W.  Free players can get tanks as good, but probably takes about a year of 10 hours/week play to get up to that level in the tank progression tables.

#81 Ben

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 08:14 PM

Elan said:

Whaaaat?  The mech has always had an insanely over the top load out for its tonnage.  Its weakness was that it only has 8 and a half tons of armor.  No game ever really made the ECM on any mech all that useful, outside of MW4, and even then it only was useful for the mech it was equipped on.  Same goes for an active probe.

I've run heavy mechs with less than that and done fine. It works best if you stick to long range though. The Hellbringer/Loki has as many tonnes in stupid weapons it'll get killed trying to use as it does in armour.

#82 Elan

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 08:50 PM

"Stupid weapons" in mech 4 are fantastic in every other iteration including table top. Four meds are equal to an ac 20, which in every game hits hard as a truck, and with three + 2 cmgs, it's pretty respectable close range punch. The Streak 6 as well are fantastically lethal things. To put its load put in approximate equivilent, it's an AC 20, twin ERPPC, SSRM6 monster at close range. In MW4 terms, approximately 70 damage points per alpha strike.

But, again, mech4 is a terrible reference for mech effectiveness.

Of course, the design is better used in effect by sniping a target with the erppcs without the enemy having a proper radar contact on you, then move in close for the kill only after you've shredded them completely. Smart piloting and taking advantage of the stealth like capabilities ECM confers to out maneuver, out pilot, and out gun almost anything in its weight class.

Edited by Elan, 19 January 2012 - 08:59 PM.


#83 ilr

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 10:31 PM

Yeah as liberal as it was on balance, you gotta admit Mech4 was the only game to date that actually made SRM's *feel* like they were actually doing something (esp Streak varieties).

But I don't think just beating something in your weight class is enough if we're talking about an MMO.  They gotta find a way for light mechs to team up and beat heavy mechs (without using Flamer gimmicks) and allow well placed garrison mechs & artillery to repel assault mechs.  (I won't bring Airsupport into this b/c we've seen what happen in BF3 when you try to make that tactic "too accessible" to everyone... but it should atleast be an NPC consideration to flesh out the world more and keep fights on larger maps more interesting)

#84 Elan

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:24 PM

Agreed. But if they keep the weapon scaling similar to mw2, mw3, and the ttg, lights are still potential threats. For example, the Firemoth Delta configuration packs five ermediums and a flamer on top of its 160 kph, before it turns on MASC (a device sadly lost in mw4) for a 220ish kph top speed.  That little twenty tonner HURTS! Similarly the Holander or Adder with their single or dual heavy hitting guns allow even light mechs to function as capable snipers and spotters.

Basically, lighter machines stay viable if you play to their strengths.  Even in an offensive roll against heavier machines.  This is why I seriously hope they remove the mechlab from MWO and keep the designs cannon in variants, since each mech and design had its pros and cons.  You don't fight against a mech with most of its weapons geared for close range on its own terms, and you don't run a light scout loaded with sensors and team assisting electronics right into the middle of a firefight.  Plus, if all else fails, you can try and out maneuver an enemy assault mech to hit it from the back.  

In fact, that's what IS lights generally do.  Distract and engage.  Flimsy, flimsy rear armor.  An Atlas against three Jenners is surprisingly in the jenners' favor, since a coordinated move by the lights results in at least one of them behind the assault mech, turning its back into mush and gutting it from behind.

Edited by Elan, 19 January 2012 - 11:31 PM.


#85 Elan

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:33 PM

http://www.gamesrada...lusive-trailer/


First trailer sinced the scrapped 3025 Deshler trailer.

#86 lotusdarkshi

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 09:10 PM

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG!  YEEEEES!  *does happy dance*  I LOOOOVED the original games and this would just make my PC uber happy.  lol  Considering I've been playing the old ones again.  

Reserved my pilot name. ^^

#87 Elan

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:11 PM

Posted Image

This is the redesigned Leopard Class aerodyne dropship.  Aerodyne obviously being short for aerodynamic.  Most of its lift comes from forward thrust causing airflow over winged surfaces, as opposed to a spheroid dropship which is a pure thrust design.  This is actually one of my favorite types of Dropship, though specifically, it's the Clan variant of the design.  Aside from a slightly more rounded design, 100 extra tons, and an extra mech bay, the Clan variant is essentially the same beast, with superior clan weaponry that is.  Oh, and a new name, the Broadsword.

In either case, Leopards are relatively modestly armed and armored, really only suited for a quick fly by strafing run and hot drop.  In fact, that's what they're tailor made for.  Basically shoot into a planet, drop into atmo, crack open the hanger bay doors, and shove the mechs inside out.  

Posted Image


Also, the trailer is now available in 1080P via YouTube.  Another thing to note: These are all in game assets, and that* really is what the cockpit of an Atlas will look like IN GAME.

*Hula girl optional.

Another thing is, I forgot to update this thread with photos of a couple recently added mechs:

The Commando
Posted Image

The Centurion
Posted Image

Edited by Elan, 29 February 2012 - 07:28 PM.


#88 Leyana

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:53 AM

Quote

.... DAMN IT! Now I want the ability to pilot drop ships!... which I know is highly unlikely

My sentiments expressed by one of the comments to the article. Though I did like the original trailer more than this one. It's nice to see interest building for this game.

#89 Coren

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:03 AM

OMGOMGOMGOMG *feints... and stays feinted*

Edit: "Wakes up". How to play Guild Wars 2 and MechWarrior Online at the same time...

Edited by Coren, 01 March 2012 - 09:05 AM.


#90 Twisted Metal

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:26 AM

Coren said:

OMGOMGOMGOMG *feints... and stays feinted*

Edit: "Wakes up". How to play Guild Wars 2 and MechWarrior Online at the same time...

2 computers! Then you can play them both at the same time. Though it might be a little difficult to be good at either one of them trying to do that lol.




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