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Teleporting through roofs and floors?


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#1 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 02:45 PM

Anyone else a bit concerned by the ability to teleport up through walls?

For some reference before I go any further, here's what I mean, we'll start with a thief example.

Fast Forward to 3:40


Teleporting through the ceiling

Heres some other random play with someone teleporting through floors and ceilings as a necromancer.

Fast Forward to 3:30

Second Floor teleporting video

There are many other instances where this is done, through ramps, floors, ceilings etc. I've only seen it done up, and not down as your view is obstructed from being on top.

I have seen other classes do this as well, Guardian can do it with their teleport skill, and necromancer with their death shroud, and lastly, obviously the thief with their various teleports, and always available bow teleport.

This has some issues I can see with both PvE and PvP.

Pve: Being able to easily break combat and line of sight with an enemy in pve by simply teleporting to the roof of the building your in.

Or in pvp for example, which I find to be the one that would be far more detrimental

PvP: Every time your about to die, as in the video posted above, the player simply teleports to a roof, or platform above them, with no way for the enemy to chase or finish them off. Theirs no method of pursuit, and no way to gain Line of sight, by the time you would run all the way up to them, they could simply run away again, already be gone, or teleport away another place.

Now do not misunderstand me, I don't believe teleports are wrong or bad, I think their fitting and make a great addition to the skill roster in GW2.

However, with that being said, I'm specifically referring to the ability to teleport through ceilings, and floors, by targeting the bottom of it, and ending up on top.

A simple teleport taking you from point A to point B, would be completely fine, this little amendment however, breaks the skill in my humble opinion.

What's your guys take on this? In competitive PvP, I see this as highly broken, and I can see its implications in PvE in breaking mob AI.

Now, I understand this may be an unintended use of the mechanic as you cannot aim at a thin wall, and teleport through it sideways, but in the event its not, and is intentional, I feel it needs to be tweaked accordingly to disallow such gross abuses.

EDIT

For those just joining us now, I've collected a list as to the reasons of WHY this is an issue:

1. Teleporting beyond line of sight with no way to persue or continue attacking is a game breaking mechanic, it allows players to seemlessly enter, and leave combat, while the opponent left with the inability to persue, finish off, or counter the teleporting target maintains control of the entire fight.

2. There is a huge difference between using a teleport to move to another location, and to exit combat completely, even stealth in this game is not a form of protection, you can still be hit with melee hits, spells, and aoes.

3. Killing a player yields multiple benefits, it takes them out of the battle for a longer time then them simply teleporting out and rapidly healing OOC or with a heal skill. Additionally, it also yields points for the slaying team.

4. The argument that the skill isn't broken because you forfeit the control point is not valid because it implies that control points will be the only objective type, which we know to be false. It also goes back to statements 1 and 3.

5. Teleports have many more uses then phasing through walls *which you cannot do to vertical walls* and are far different then a movement speed ability, or a charge. This is because teleports are INSTANT, they bypass any kind of negative effects in the way, such as players, traps, and AoE's.

6. Quote from Beetlejuice *If you teleport through a roof, out of line of sight for everyone who does not have a teleport itself then you get exactly that immortality. And it is both bad game design to make a skill so important that it is mandatory and to make certain professions (those without teleports) unable to ever kill certain other professions (those with teleports) as long as they have half a brain cell left.*

7. To quote Guldur "This is actually the only mechanic in the game that I can think of that there is no way to counter once its used. Even stealth can be broken by aoe."

8. The argument that its working as intended, doesn't make the skill any less broken, or any of these points less valid, these are all logically sound in reason as to why the skill should not operate this way, and the effects it will create if left unchanged.

9. The statement the ability needs to be off cooldown to be viable and can't be abused is also not valid, thieves can use the teleport without any cooldown, and can use it repeatedly. Death shroud also allows you to teleport  every few seconds, which can be turned on and off for the teleport.

10. Comparing this teleport skill, to others in games like LoL is not valid, because this game has a Z axis to quote Guldur again:

"I'm not very familiar with HoN, so I'll talk about my experience in LoL.

Yes some classes have teleport, but this is a game where there is no Z axis, meaning they can be out of range but reached.

The game is balanced in a sense that the majority of classes have either a teleport or speed buff, meaning if someone teleports back, you can turn on speed buff and try chasing him.

Classes that have none of these abilities usually end up with speed debuffs that last some seconds, this way if your oponent is dying, you can make sure you debuff him and even if he teleports, he will not be able to run much.

The issue with gw2 is that once you introduce a Z axis, and not all classes can jump there as easily, you create a mechanic that is easily abuseable since you can jump out of fight and break LoS permanently, and the opponent will have no ways of chasing you to finish the kill."

11. You can't go through vertical walls for the very same reason you shouldn't be able to go through ceilings. Instant LOS.

That pretty much sums up what we've gone over so far, and the reasoning as to why this mechanic needs to be adjusted.

Edited by Steb, 29 December 2011 - 08:09 PM.


#2 Kaysyn

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 02:57 PM

I am not sure if this will be an issue because once you learn the maps there will only be 1 or 2 spots someone can teleport so all you have to and teleport there to follow. One way to change (fix) would be to be only be able to teleport when you are out of combat.

#3 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:00 PM

Kaysyn said:

I am not sure if this will be an issue because once you learn the maps there will only be 1 or 2 spots someone can teleport so all you have to and teleport there to follow. One way to change (fix) would be to be only be able to teleport when you are out of combat.

I see staggering problems with each of the proposed statements.

Firstly, not all classes can teleport, as far as I'm aware, only 3 can do direct point A to point B teleports: Thief, Necromancer, Guardian

That being said, over half the classes wouldn't be able to chase, and only certain weapon setups would allow you to persue, so not only would you have to be 1 of the 3 classes, but you would also have to be carrying the same weapon type.

Secondly, the combat system for GW2 is not meant to be based around not being in combat, teleporting is meant to be an integral movement ability in pvp to help gain ground or distance, making it out of combat only especially considering that many of the skils have other effects in the area teleported to, that it simply wouldn't make sense, or work.

I believe the most logical choice would be to just simply tweak the system so you cannot teleport up or down through walls. Just like you can't teleport sideways through them.

#4 Easyryder

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:02 PM

As you said lot of classes can Teleport up the walls and ceiling. So if someone is low and uses their teleport, you can use yours and close the gap. If you are talking about those classes that cannot teleport, then you can just sit and heal yourself back up and defend the node. So I don't see any problem with this.

#5 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:10 PM

I never said a lot of classes can teleport, I said a few. The problem is that the class can instantly get away, and instantly enter and rejoin combat at any time. Or just stay on the roof as you see them in the video, shooting from the corner, and backing away when attention is drawn to them while they sit up their with almost no hp.

It's a broken mechanic that is easily abused, and limited to a select few, with no way to chastise them.

*I myself am going to be playing a thief, with a shotbow, and am aware of how broken and overpowered the skill is, and how easily I can abuse the system.*

#6 Beetlejuice

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:12 PM

Allowing teleport only out of combat would actually be a horrible fix because it would also kill all legitimate uses of teleport in combat. I am pretty sure if this turns out to be a problem it won't be much work to fine tune teleport targeting so that it fizzles or teleports you just under the roof you targeted from below rather than above it. Sounds to me that this is just a case of an overly gracious dimensioned leeway in the z-coordinate when spawning after a teleport to make sure you don't end stuck to the world. If it turns out to be unintended it will be an easy fix.

I personally think it goes a bit to far in terms of "creative use of game mechanics". I very much like the flexibility of teleports in gw2 but this one could lead to some teleport being mandatory and will cripple professions without one.

#7 Dream Catcher

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:13 PM

Steb said:

I never said a lot of classes can teleport, I said a few. The problem is that the class can instantly get away, and instantly enter and rejoin combat at any time. Or just stay on the roof as you see them in the video, shooting from the corner, and backing away when attention is drawn to them while they sit up their with almost no hp.

It's a broken mechanic that is easily abused, and limited to a select few, with no way to chastise them.

*I myself am going to be playing a thief, with a shotbow, and am aware of how broken and overpowered the skill is, and how easily I can abuse the system.*

You, the same us know nothing about what the skills will be like when the game is released, so sweeping statements are not really any use for you or the communit. I am sure they will close exploits like this, isn't that what alpha and beta are for?.

#8 Spiritual Machine

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:20 PM

Steb said:

*I myself am going to be playing a thief, with a shotbow, and am aware of how broken and overpowered the skill is, and how easily I can abuse the system.*

So your main trick in PvP will be cheaply running away using a skill that you're complaining about? Because the shortbow is pretty impractical for many PvP encounters.

You need to be less spiteful and more intelligent.

Dream Catcher said:

You, the same us know nothing about what the skills will be like when the game is released, so sweeping statements are not really any use for you or the communit. I am sure they will close exploits like this, isn't that what alpha and beta are for?.

Or, in English:

A lot of people come to this sub-forum to complain about things that are so blatantly broken that they're obviously going to be patched up when people report the stuff in beta. You're complaining about demo build problems as if OH NO! If I don't mention it now, it'll DEFINITELY end up in the final build of the game, and then PvP will be broken forever!

Seems like a bit of an overreaction. I wouldn't say this potential exploit is intentional. People've gotta stop making threads like this.

#9 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:23 PM

Dream Catcher said:

what the skills will be like when the game is released

We aren't talking about things we can't grasp or what they COULD be, we are speaking directly about what they CURRENTLY are. Because of this, we're having a discussion on the current state of this mechanic, and its current implementation.

In the above videos you can see it being used exactly as described, so saying that I don't understand them, is quite absurd, its right in plain view.

Ignoring issues early on, and watching gross abuses just carelessly pass by, is ignorant, and does not help improve a game, bringing them up, and creating discussion around them however, resolves issues before they arise. In this case, before launch.

As much as I envy your blind passion and belief that developers fix all issues, all the time, and are infallible of making such careless oversights, I'll remain watchful, and reasonable.

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Spiritual Machine said:

So your main trick in PvP will be cheaply running away using a skill that you're complaining about? Because the shortbow is pretty impractical for many PvP encounters.

You need to be less spiteful and more intelligent.



Or, in English:

A lot of people come to this sub-forum to complain about things that are so blatantly broken that they're obviously going to be patched up when people report the stuff in beta. You're complaining about demo build problems as if OH NO! If I don't mention it now, it'll DEFINITELY end up in the final build of the game, and then PvP will be broken forever!

Seems like a bit of an overreaction. I wouldn't say this potential exploit is intentional. People've gotta stop making threads like this.

Firstly, thats opinion, not fact. I find the bow to be very, very pratical, most people don't see it that way however.

Secondly, yes, I will use whatever tools I'm given to succeed as long as its within the bounds of the games mechanics, that's what competitive pvp is all about.

Lastly, this is simply drumming up conversation, and shedding light on something I haven't seen talked about before. This is not a gloom and doom post, this is me simply sparking up conversation on what I see as an issue.

We're all aware that dev's read and post on these forums. Who know's, maybe they will read this one?

#10 Radix

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:29 PM

I don't think it's a big deal for someone to teleport through a wall or cieling if they are "running away." Let them run, they are going to lose the capture point. Also, if it's a priority to chase and kill him then other classes that can do it should make it their priority to do so.

#11 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:30 PM

Radix said:

I don't think it's a big deal for someone to teleport through a wall or cieling if they are "running away." Let them run, they are going to lose the capture point. Also, if it's a priority to chase and kill him then other classes that can do it should make it there priority to do so.

Your making the assumption that capture points will be the only game point. And belittling the strategic advantage of killing someone, versus scaring them off for a much briefer time period. When you kill someone, it takes them much longer to return, then it would for them to teleport up, heal quickly, and return to combat in a matter of seconds. Repeated assault is a very viable tactic, and one that can be easily abused with this current mechanic.

#12 tallanx

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:31 PM

elementalists can also teleport up through floors/ceilings, not just necros, thieves and guardians. That being said, even if not all professions can teleport, I don't really think it's a big deal. The fact is, if you teleport through a ceiling/floor to get away and the enemy can't follow you fast enough due to lack of teleport skill and the only non-teleport way to get to you takes considerably more time then that means you cannot just jump back into the fight either. So by teleporting away you are allowing the enemy free reign of a CP which is to your team's detriment.

If you're talking about teleporting through roofs etc on the field and outside of "indoor" CP locations. Then the solution is simple, don't create PvP maps that is fully indoors AND have multiple floors. I seriously doubt they're going to do that anyway since Anet's aim is for a highly positional combat with a lot of movement, a PvP map that is fully indoors won't be good for that.

Edit:

Steb said:

Your making the assumption that capture points will be the only game point. And belittling the strategic advantage of killing someone, versus scaring them off for a much briefer time period. When you kill someone, it takes them much longer to return, then it would for them to teleport up, heal quickly, and return to combat in a matter of seconds. Repeated assault is a very viable tactic, and one that can be easily abused with this current mechanic.

I believe they did say that CP is currently the only game mode. And as I mentioned earlier in this post, a fully indoors map would be against their design goal, so I find it incredibly unlikely. Also, while the enemy is away and healing, then you can do the exact same thing, so it will prolong the battle, but it won't really give either side much of an advantage.

Edited by tallanx, 28 December 2011 - 03:37 PM.


#13 bestgw2player

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:34 PM

Keep it in, its strategic and looks(and feels?) absolutely amazing. The gametype is conquest, if you force a player to teleport out of the cap zone you've done your job; its not exclusively about kills.

#14 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:35 PM

tallanx said:

If you're talking about teleporting through roofs etc on the field and outside of "indoor" CP locations. Then the solution is simple, don't create PvP maps that is fully indoors AND have multiple floors. I seriously doubt they're going to do that anyway since Anet's aim is for a highly positional combat with a lot of movement, a PvP map that is fully indoors won't be good for that.

Or they could make this real easy, and simple change, and make it so you can't teleport through ceilings.

#15 Radix

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, I guess if maybe the game objective revolves around number of kills that could be a problem. Perhaps going through a wall or cieling should actually do damage to the player?

#16 baels

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:36 PM

Last I checked, being able to teleport from one level to the next (as seen in past PvP footage @the clocktower/your example) in order to decrease the time it took you to reach a point, or get up/away from an enemy, is a show of player skill. A-net devs seemed to agree at least.

#17 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:37 PM

Why is it the most obvious, viable, and rational fix, is always the last one people will accept?

#18 Guldur

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

Either give all professions a chance to do the same or block the option to teleporting to different floors.
I personally hate escape mechanics, as I had bad experiences running after targets on lineage2, so I´d prefer always having the chance to reach a running target.

#19 Chalky

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

The big issue is whether or not the skill is designed to allow teleportation through surfaces.

If the skill is designed to work that way, then obviously using a skill in the way that it is designed is not going to be a problem.  The skill cost and requirements will be balanced such that it is not imbalanced.

If the skill is not designed to be used this way, then what you are witnessing is a bug which will presumably be fixed.

Edited by Chalky, 02 January 2012 - 06:18 PM.

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#20 Guldur

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:42 PM

bestgw2player said:

Keep it in, its strategic and looks(and feels?) absolutely amazing. The gametype is conquest, if you force a player to teleport out of the cap zone you've done your job; its not exclusively about kills.

Playing PvP and never killing anyone can surely be boring. Besides killing players givers points and removes them from the battlefiled for a while

#21 bestgw2player

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:44 PM

Steb said:

Why is it the most obvious, viable, and rational fix, is always the last one people will accept?

There is no fix as it hasnt been determined if the feature is actually game breaking, or atleast unfair to others. Teleporting seems to be a large portion of the game and ANET have utilised it in many of the PvP show matches, they know it exists.

The scholar professions seem to be the only ones that have teleport skills, they have low armour and so there playstyle is likely to be centered around movement and dodging.

Player skill comes into account, if the player you are fighting suddenly dissapears, a good player will know where hes gone and react accordingly. I don't see anything wrong with the skill how it is.

Edited by bestgw2player, 28 December 2011 - 03:47 PM.


#22 tallanx

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:44 PM

Steb said:

Why is it the most obvious, viable, and rational fix, is always the last one people will accept?

because it is not the "most obvious, viable and rational fix". It may be that to you, but not for others, hence why we don't believe it is necessary.

I mean in the battle of Kyhlo, I believe the only indoor area where you can teleport through the roof is the clocktower yes? and the roof is destructible, so that roof isn't gonna stay there forever. If nobody destroys the roof, then it's gonna take time for that fleeing person to get back into the clocktower, if the roof has been destroyed then it will be easy to follow them. If you teleport from the ground, up to the clocktower outside ramp through the floor, non teleporting professions can use other movement skills to get up there just as easily. There is no situation where a teleporting profession gets an advantage against other professions.

#23 Ink the Stained

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:45 PM

This isn't a thing that needs to be tweaked, as it should be completely intentional.

It would really take away from the Teleport skill if you weren't allowed to teleport to a place that's perfectly accessible.  It's one thing if you're standing on a top floor looking through an unbroken roof and teleport yourself up there without any reasonable explanation for knowing what it looks like up there.  The roof in the videos is broken, though, so there's an obtuse explanation for it.

Frankly it would take away some of the fun and creativity away from the game.  Remember, these "characters" are using "magic."  If you can teleport, why limit it beyond distance?  Even though I don't think I'll make my main one of those professions that can teleport, I'll be pissed as hell if they take a benefit like that away.

Keep it as they show it and learn to defend yourself against a teleporting Necro.  You'll be a better player for it.

Edited by Fizzlepip, 28 December 2011 - 03:50 PM.


#24 bestgw2player

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:46 PM

Guldur said:

Playing PvP and never killing anyone can surely be boring. Besides killing players givers points and removes them from the battlefiled for a while

It's foolish to think that because a certain profession has access to a teleport skill you wont be able to get any kills in PvP. Teleporting doesnt replenish health, and those playing a profession with a teleport skill can follow them and take them down if they wish.

#25 Guldur

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:49 PM

bestgw2player said:

It's foolish to think that because a certain profession has access to a teleport skill you wont be able to get any kills in PvP. Teleporting doesnt replenish health, and those playing a profession with a teleport skill can follow them and take them down if they wish.

I´m just looking at a perspective of warrior vs elementalist for example. If the skill isnt balanced properly, elementalist can always fight close to points where its easy to teleport away. Afterall, characters have so much health in this game, plus self-healing, it is very hard to lockdown someone.

#26 Beetlejuice

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:51 PM

Wow, at first i was unsure if it is really something that is worth bothering but the more i hear people defending it the more i think it should get fixed :).

Do you guys even listen to yourselves? It is tactical and a show of skill to mark a roof and click a skill to avoid certain death? So the alt+f4 of really old mmos was also a show of skill? You are setting the bar incredibly low here. Maybe not using alt+f4 was a show of stupidity but not everyone who is not extremely stupid is also automatically skilled.

And don't talk down the impact it has on pvp. Forfeiting a capture point to heal up again is much better for your team then forfeiting a capture point by getting killed and having to respawn again. Not only does it take much longer but it also gives your enemy points.

And lastly assuming that they most likely won't ever release a pvp format where it will be a huge problem is not a good argument either for something that is very easily fixed in the first place. It is kinda like bringing your car with damaged blinkers to the mechanic and tell him to only replace the left one because to drive home you only have to turn left anyway.

#27 Steb

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:51 PM

Guldur said:

Playing PvP and never killing anyone can surely be boring. Besides killing players givers points and removes them from the battlefiled for a while

Careful their soldier. You start making sense, and they start grabbing pitchforks.

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beetlejuice said:

wow, at first i was unsure if it is really something that is worth bothering but the more i hear people defending it the more i think it should get fixed :).

Do you guys even listen to yourselves? It is tactical and a show of skill to mark a roof and click a skill to avoid certain death? So the alt+f4 of really old mmos was also a show of skill? You are setting the bar incredibly low here. Maybe not using alt+f4 was a show of stupidity but not everyone who is not extremely stupid is also automatically skilled.

And don't talk down the impact it has on pvp. Forfeiting a capture point to heal up again is much better for your team then forfeiting a capture point by getting killed and having to respawn again. Not only does it take much longer but it also gives your enemy points.

And lastly assuming that they most likely won't ever release a pvp format where it will be a huge problem is not a good argument either for something that is very easily fixed in the first place. It is kinda like bringing your car with damaged blinkers to the mechanic and tell him to only replace the left one because to drive home you only have to turn left anyway.

STOP BEING REASONABLE!!!!

#28 bestgw2player

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:52 PM

Guldur said:

I´m just looking at a perspective of warrior vs elementalist for example. If the skill isnt balanced properly, elementalist can always fight close to points where its easy to teleport away. Afterall, characters have so much health in this game, plus self-healing, it is very hard to lockdown someone.

At which point the elementalist is likely to be weak, with out access to a teleport skill. Another player on your team is likely to meet them and score a kill.

#29 Chalky

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 03:59 PM

Beetlejuice said:

Wow, at first i was unsure if it is really something that is worth bothering but the more i hear people defending it the more i think it should get fixed :).

Do you guys even listen to yourselves? It is tactical and a show of skill to mark a roof and click a skill to avoid certain death? So the alt+f4 of really old mmos was also a show of skill? You are setting the bar incredibly low here. Maybe not using alt+f4 was a show of stupidity but not everyone who is not extremely stupid is also automatically skilled.

And don't talk down the impact it has on pvp. Forfeiting a capture point to heal up again is much better for your team then forfeiting a capture point by getting killed and having to respawn again. Not only does it take much longer but it also gives your enemy points.

And lastly assuming that they most likely won't ever release a pvp format where it will be a huge problem is not a good argument either for something that is very easily fixed in the first place. It is kinda like bringing your car with damaged blinkers to the mechanic and tell him to only replace the left one because to drive home you only have to turn left anyway.

The whole point of most blink skills is that they allow the traversal of impassable terrain as either an escape technique or an offensive move.

If blinking through walls or ceilings is an intended mechanic, what needs fixing?

And if it is a bug, then it needing fixing is part of its definition.

If you think a blink should only permit players to move over terrain that they could otherwise run over, then you are missing the fundamental reason why blinks are different to a simple speed boost.

It's really quite surreal that people are arguing that an escape mechanic is broken because it allows people to escape in a game where players can turn invisible.
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#30 Beetlejuice

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 04:00 PM

Steb said:

STOP BEING REASONABLE!!!!

Sorry for that. I know people get easily offended here when you are reasonable. Had a few cases of those already, should have known better :).