469 replies to this topic

[Shake92]

Hey guys. Just played SWTOR for a month and unsubbed to that steaming pile of ****... I've been a big believer in GW2 for a long time now, pretty much expected SWTOR to flop but decided to play anyway.

That said I have some pretty serious concerns about this game so I was hoping you guys who probably have more knowledge than I do could talk about these things and whether I'm right to be worried or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the game's systems.

So this is basically what i'm worried about:

I feel that gear is more or less meaningless in this game. While I think that PvP should be almost exclusively about player skill and shouldn't be very gear dependent, the idea of going into a PvP match and having gear assigned to me concerns me. Firstly, I feel like it removes an aspect of character customization both visually and statistically. Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing that every class has an assigned gear set for PvP? So doesn't that my character can't look the way I want in terms of what gear is he wearing? Then statistically I feel like it removes an element of customization in that you can't choose what stats you want to prioritize for your character.

The next part of this gear concern is that I have an assumption that dungeon content won't be overly difficult there won't be hard gear checks and there won't be long lockout timers to make gear meaningful. I feel like people are going to be able to farm all of the gear from a dungeon in about a week and be done with it. Are the 5 level 80 dungeons even going to have a progression? Will you need better gear to do certain ones, and if not then whats to stop hardcore/skilled players from clearing all of the content in a week or two? I feel like gear is going to be meaningless without PvE progression or any use in PvP. For some people this might be a good thing but overall I think most MMO gamers like to get new gear, the feeling of getting better stats and cooler appearance is something that most gamers seem to enjoy.

In essence I'm worried that gear will not be very meaningful which kind of eliminates the purpose to crafting all together, and I'm worried that PvE content won't be enough of a lasting draw to keep players who enjoy raiding around. I would like to see this game because a big deal with a large playerbase, very competitive (esport-like) PvP, and a thriving community, but I feel that the PvE market has to be there for that to happen. There are a lot of PvE focused players in this market, and a lot of players who enjoy both like me, so I'm worried that this game is focusing too much on PvP and as a result might end up with a niche market that won't really be enough players to even support the competitive scene in the first place...

[Dulu]

All of your worries seem to be legit.

They've said this game will be easy, and very casual-friendly. Only 5-player content, mainly cosmetic item differences, you can be in multiple guilds at once to discourage competition.

If that's not your thing, I'm sorry.

[Gempulse]

Gear won't be overly important, which is what makes this game and GW1 so great. It's about skill, and not so much the stats on your armor.

However, I'm sure there will be some rare, awesome looking, prestigious armor skins like for example, Obsidian Armor in Guild Wars 1.

Also, I believe I read in an interview that some of the content that Anet is developing is some of the most challenging they have ever made.  & Once upon a time, Guild Wars 1 content used to be quite difficult.

Edited by Gempulse, 19 January 2012 - 07:51 PM.

[Drokk]

First, unlearn all the nonsense with which other mmos have brainwashed you. Gear isn't the end-all be all of playing an mmo.

You talk about competitive pvp and difficult dungeon encounters. What does gear have to do with either? Gear checks? I'd much rather prefer a skill check. When you take the inflated gear out of pvp skill actually comes to the forefront and true competition takes place. The same goes for pve. Coordination, strategy, tactics, cooperation, skill combos all take precedence over a simple gear check.

Now...once people have whatever set they want why would they keep doing dungeons? I'm going to blow your mind with this one: for fun! Why is that so crazy these days? Players have been conditioned to this progression treadmill to the point where they can't just do an activity for the fun of it. Well my hope is GW2 starts curing players of that insanity.

So my advice is forget what other mmos have done. Concentrate on what GW2 is trying to do. Judge it for what it is and don't expect the same experience from carrot-on-a-stick type mmos (like WoW). And be grateful for that.

[Dream Catcher]

Shake92 said:

Hey guys. Just played SWTOR for a month and unsubbed to that steaming pile of ****... I've been a big believer in GW2 for a long time now, pretty much expected SWTOR to flop but decided to play anyway.

That said I have some pretty serious concerns about this game so I was hoping you guys who probably have more knowledge than I do could talk about these things and whether I'm right to be worried or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the game's systems.

So this is basically what i'm worried about:

I feel that gear is more or less meaningless in this game. While I think that PvP should be almost exclusively about player skill and shouldn't be very gear dependent, the idea of going into a PvP match and having gear assigned to me concerns me. Firstly, I feel like it removes an aspect of character customization both visually and statistically. Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing that every class has an assigned gear set for PvP? So doesn't that my character can't look the way I want in terms of what gear is he wearing? Then statistically I feel like it removes an element of customization in that you can't choose what stats you want to prioritize for your character.

You unlock armor and weapon skins in PvP that you can use to customize your character, your armor will also have a choice of stats, insignias etc that are changeable, you will also have traits that can change the functionality of skills.

The next part of this gear concern is that I have an assumption that dungeon content won't be overly difficult there won't be hard gear checks and there won't be long lockout timers to make gear meaningful. I feel like people are going to be able to farm all of the gear from a dungeon in about a week and be done with it. Are the 5 level 80 dungeons even going to have a progression? Will you need better gear to do certain ones, and if not then whats to stop hardcore/skilled players from clearing all of the content in a week or two? I feel like gear is going to be meaningless without PvE progression or any use in PvP. For some people this might be a good thing but overall I think most MMO gamers like to get new gear, the feeling of getting better stats and cooler appearance is something that most gamers seem to enjoy.

Dungeons are not really about gear checks, but about skill checks, and checks on your ability to perform extremely well as a team (explorable dungeons).

In essence I'm worried that gear will not be very meaningful which kind of eliminates the purpose to crafting all together, and I'm worried that PvE content won't be enough of a lasting draw to keep players who enjoy raiding around. I would like to see this game because a big deal with a large playerbase, very competitive (esport-like) PvP, and a thriving community, but I feel that the PvE market has to be there for that to happen. There are a lot of PvE focused players in this market, and a lot of players who enjoy both like me, so I'm worried that this game is focusing too much on PvP and as a result might end up with a niche market that won't really be enough players to even support the competitive scene in the first place.

In GW it was never about gear (stats) it was all about gear appearence, this is just as addictive, especially when there will be items in game that drop extremely rarely.

Hope this helps a little.

[Matsy]

My advice, just give it a whirl after-all GW2 is B2P.

[Shamadamun]

Drokk said:

First, unlearn all the nonsense with which other mmos have brainwashed you. Gear isn't the end-all be all of playing an mmo.

You talk about competitive pvp and difficult dungeon encounters. What does gear have to do with either? Gear checks? I'd much rather prefer a skill check. When you take the inflated gear out of pvp skill actually comes to the forefront and true competition takes place. The same goes for pve. Coordination, strategy, tactics, cooperation, skill combos all take precedence over a simple gear check.

Now...once people have whatever set they want why would they keep doing dungeons? I'm going to blow your mind with this one: for fun! Why is that so crazy these days? Players have been conditioned to this progression treadmill to the point where they can't just do an activity for the fun of it. Well my hope is GW2 starts curing players of that insanity.

So my advice is forget what other mmos have done. Concentrate on what GW2 is trying to do. Judge it for what it is and don't expect the same experience from carrot-on-a-stick type mmos (like WoW). And be grateful for that.

You're awesome. Couldn't have said this better than myself. OP, really read this one through and THINK it through as well. This right here is whats going to make GW2 alot more fun than traditional MMO's

Unless of course you prefer chasing that carrot and never being satisfied.

[Maal]

From official website:
"Each profession will load into PvP with a starter template that allows new players to have a competent build without needing to delve into detailed skill selection, item selection, or other tweaks. However, these more detailed customization options will be available for players who are more comfortable with the system."

It probably mean that there will be a selection of end-game pvp gear to choose from. There is also a PvP currency that allow you to pruchase gear (for the look only, or maybe the stat variation is there?) you get points from doing pvp.

About pve progression, every dungeon got a story mode and like 3 difficulty level. Skill and luck (as there is dynamic event down there) will play a big role. There was also a ''ladder'' for the fastest clears in Gw1, which might be in gw2.

Edited by Maal, 19 January 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Nostredeus]

I am assuming that gear will work in a very similar way to GW1, there will be super rare skins that are prestigious but have no effect on gameplay. I am assuming there will also be super rare materials that can be used to craft super rare skins in the crafting system.

If this is not the case, mores the pitty, but I am assuming it will be although it's not a deal breaker for me.

[Fatalis]

I feel that gear is more or less meaningless in this game. While I think that PvP should be almost exclusively about player skill and shouldn't be very gear dependent, the idea of going into a PvP match and having gear assigned to me concerns me. Firstly, I feel like it removes an aspect of character customization both visually and statistically. Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing that every class has an assigned gear set for PvP? So doesn't that my character can't look the way I want in terms of what gear is he wearing? Then statistically I feel like it removes an element of customization in that you can't choose what stats you want to prioritize for your character.

Gear has different stats, but they are essentially equivalent. You could have a piece of armor that gives +100 strength, or a piece of armor that gives +60 Strength, +60 Precision, etc. There is still customization in that aspect. Visually, there will be a kind of gear progression for aesthetics.  


The next part of this gear concern is that I have an assumption that dungeon content won't be overly difficult there won't be hard gear checks and there won't be long lockout timers to make gear meaningful. I feel like people are going to be able to farm all of the gear from a dungeon in about a week and be done with it. Are the 5 level 80 dungeons even going to have a progression? Will you need better gear to do certain ones, and if not then whats to stop hardcore/skilled players from clearing all of the content in a week or two? I feel like gear is going to be meaningless without PvE progression or any use in PvP. For some people this might be a good thing but overall I think most MMO gamers like to get new gear, the feeling of getting better stats and cooler appearance is something that most gamers seem to enjoy.

Is it really enjoyable to be locked out of content? It's a system that's put in place in order to keep people subscribed to the game, it's absolutely unnecessary here. If you want to do a dungeon, then you should be able to do it. Sure, there will be some people who will try to grind all the dungeons as fast as they can, and they will. This game isn't about going from point A to be getting gear so that you can do the next dungeon. It's about experiencing a world. You should do whatever you find enjoyable, and make your own goals. There more to this game then just raiding dungeons endlessly.

In essence I'm worried that gear will not be very meaningful which kind of eliminates the purpose to crafting all together, and I'm worried that PvE content won't be enough of a lasting draw to keep players who enjoy raiding around. I would like to see this game because a big deal with a large playerbase, very competitive (esport-like) PvP, and a thriving community, but I feel that the PvE market has to be there for that to happen. There are a lot of PvE focused players in this market, and a lot of players who enjoy both like me, so I'm worried that this game is focusing too much on PvP and as a result might end up with a niche market that won't really be enough players to even support the competitive scene in the first place...

GW2 is not a big game about raiding. If you want to have a game where you meet up at a designated time each week to repeatedly do the same content, then there are tons of other MMOs out there. GW2 is a game where you play content which you enjoy playing. If you want to raid, there are dungeons available for you, however they don't want people to have to do those dungeons over and over again in order to be remotely competitive.

[Quinci]

Shake92 said:

Hey guys. Just played SWTOR for a month and unsubbed to that steaming pile of ****... I've been a big believer in GW2 for a long time now, pretty much expected SWTOR to flop but decided to play anyway.

That said I have some pretty serious concerns about this game so I was hoping you guys who probably have more knowledge than I do could talk about these things and whether I'm right to be worried or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the game's systems.

So this is basically what i'm worried about:

I feel that gear is more or less meaningless in this game. While I think that PvP should be almost exclusively about player skill and shouldn't be very gear dependent, the idea of going into a PvP match and having gear assigned to me concerns me. Firstly, I feel like it removes an aspect of character customization both visually and statistically. Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing that every class has an assigned gear set for PvP? So doesn't that my character can't look the way I want in terms of what gear is he wearing? Then statistically I feel like it removes an element of customization in that you can't choose what stats you want to prioritize for your character.

The next part of this gear concern is that I have an assumption that dungeon content won't be overly difficult there won't be hard gear checks and there won't be long lockout timers to make gear meaningful. I feel like people are going to be able to farm all of the gear from a dungeon in about a week and be done with it. Are the 5 level 80 dungeons even going to have a progression? Will you need better gear to do certain ones, and if not then whats to stop hardcore/skilled players from clearing all of the content in a week or two? I feel like gear is going to be meaningless without PvE progression or any use in PvP. For some people this might be a good thing but overall I think most MMO gamers like to get new gear, the feeling of getting better stats and cooler appearance is something that most gamers seem to enjoy.

In essence I'm worried that gear will not be very meaningful which kind of eliminates the purpose to crafting all together, and I'm worried that PvE content won't be enough of a lasting draw to keep players who enjoy raiding around. I would like to see this game because a big deal with a large playerbase, very competitive (esport-like) PvP, and a thriving community, but I feel that the PvE market has to be there for that to happen. There are a lot of PvE focused players in this market, and a lot of players who enjoy both like me, so I'm worried that this game is focusing too much on PvP and as a result might end up with a niche market that won't really be enough players to even support the competitive scene in the first place...

As for assigned pvp gear, this isn't the case, at least from what I understand. You will still get to pick which buffs, weapons, ect that you want to use. There will still be customization through gear in pvp, meaning that if you want to have a higher crit rate you can pick armor buffs that increase crit, or if you want higher base damage for less crit you can do so. The difference between GW2 pvp and normal games is the gear you choose will always be at the maximum level of power, meaning there won't be any imbalances.

As for dungeon gear, you are correct in the assumption that you won't be required to grind in order to get the best gear. There are something like 4 other threads on this topic at the current moment so I'd suggest you read those. You are very incorrect in assuming the dungeons won't be difficult however. Dungeons will be very difficult content, and will be made much more difficult than in other games due to the fact that they will have to be overcome through player skill and cannot be trivialized by increasing character stats.

Lastly, there are other threads on whether or not you think GW2's pve will be long-lasting. From ArenaNet's standpoint there is no reason to require grind in order to keep players interested in a game if they are actually having fun playing said game. Thousands of games since the inception of the first video game have kept player interest for years without requiring grind. Even today many modern video games from non-mmorpg genres keep players interested despite lacking grind.

As for GW2 being focused on pvp, this doesn't make any sense at all. Anet has barely shown any pvp compared to the multitude of pve they have shown in the demos. If anything pvp players should be worried about GW2 focusing too much on pve.

[AnTxJeTs]

I see he made it safely back to land after the ToRtanic sank.

Quote

I feel that gear is more or less meaningless in this game. While I think that PvP should be almost exclusively about player skill and shouldn't be very gear dependent, the idea of going into a PvP match and having gear assigned to me concerns me.

All PvP gear and stats will be maxed for all players. As far as PvE goes, that's completely different.

Quote

Maybe I heard wrong, but I remember hearing that every class has an assigned gear set for PvP? So doesn't that my character can't look the way I want in terms of what gear is he wearing?

From the PvP videos we saw (GamesCon 2011), I don't know if your armor is actually showing the customization during matches, but I do know that you can tell "Red" vs "Blue", unless you turn the brightness all the way up on your monitor.  For WvWvW, they said you're sidekicked to the max level with your current equips and skills.

Quote

The next part of this gear concern is that I have an assumption that dungeon content won't be overly difficult there won't be hard gear checks and there won't be long lockout timers to make gear meaningful.

There are two types of ways to do dungeons. You can either take the easy route which is the story mode or the explorable mode.
See here : http://wiki.guildwar...om/wiki/Dungeon

[Geobardi]

PVE =/= Raiding
You can get better looking PVP armor, but not better stats in competitive PVP, you will fight with your own armor (PVE) in WvWvW. PVE content doesn't react to your gear, ONLY WITH YOUR F*ING SKILL (player skills not game ones...) so the dungeons will be difficult if the group is made of bad players and is lack of cooperation (remember no WoW combat, this game's mechanic is not EQ-WoW-LOTRO-SWTOR-etc... it's totally different it's an action game with some targeting), it will be easier if it's made with better players (good comunication, cooperative, etc...) PERIOD. How many times must we repeat this again and again?

[Enigmatic]

Gear won't be meaningless. You can customize the stats on it, just like you could in GW1. There's a maximum armour/damage threshold, but you can change the stats to suit your play-style, to a certain extent.

In GW2 (AFAIK), aesthetics will be the distinguishing feature between max gear, so there is still an incentive to pay large amounts of money for gear, and you can still parade about to your hearts content in rare and exclusive skins. However, skill will get you through the game, not gear.

As for easy content, there will be lots of events that are tailored more towards the casual player (that's not to say they will all be a breeze). However if you want a challenge, you can look at the explorable modes in Dungeons, Elite Dynamic Events, and PvP.

Edit: Ninja'd about 10 times :p

[Master10K]

They've said the game will be quick and easy to pick up and start having fun but they never said anything about the game itself being a cake-walk. There are numerous ways that this game will offer a challenge from the Dungeons (3 of which will be at level 80) being the hardest content in the game, even to simple mobs having improved scripted AI over the standard mobs you'd find in most other MMORPGs. However things like boss' requiring gear check mechanics won't be in this game and rightfully so, as they don't even add to the game's difficult. They only instill a Tiered endgame system, which this game won't have.

As for gear, if you want your character to retain their identity whilst PvP'ing there will always be WvWvW PvP to fall back on, since you retain your character's gear, skills & traits in there. Also gear crafting in the game won't be meaningless, like it is in most other MMOs, since you'll be able to craft items that are statistically equal to the gear you can earn.

Your fears seems to be mostly about the importance of gear but you need to understand that Guild Wars 2 is just not the kind of gear-oriented MMORPG you might be hoping for. ArenaNet are deliberately reducing the importance of gear in the game, by making the game more about fun & player skill, not working towards some gear check.

[Kalidri]

I am nearing the end game of another MMO and frankly I am furious about the gear requirements - I've played the damned game, I know how the skills work, I can unchain my damage quickly - so why the hell can't I just go to the end game and play now? Nope, not even my own guildmates in that game will let me play until I grind for the gear. I love playing with them, so of course I will grind out the gear, but it makes me shockingly angry when I consider that in GW you just had to get a few insignias, max armor, 8 skills and some properly modded weapons to go to end game. For PvP the bar was even LOWER than PVE, just bring your skill, earn your way to all the equipment. Fast forward to GW2, if it ever depends on gear I will also throw a minor tantrum - it's lovely just to dive in and enjoy, knowing that your skill and teamwork will carry the day. Poo on gear.

[Dulu]

I heard all of these same responses in...

Age of Conan, Darkfall, SWTOR, Aion, Rift, Warhammer...


People are so eager to throw their hopes and dreams onto a game they have never played.

[Mordakai]

Dulu said:

All of your worries seem to be legit.

They've said this game will be easy, and very casual-friendly. Only 5-player content, mainly cosmetic item differences, you can be in multiple guilds at once to discourage competition.

If that's not your thing, I'm sorry.

Well, now, "easy" is an opinion.  It took GW1 vets a good 5 hours to try and finish one of the Dungeons in Explorable Mode, and they never finished it.

I think GW2 will appeal to both casuals and "hardcore" players as well - as long as you don't require uber-rare drops with better than normal stats to make you happy - that goes against Anet's design philosophy.

[Matsy]

@ Dulu, GW2 is not a gear grind fest unlike them WoW clones(most of them)

Edited by Matsy, 19 January 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Randomessa]

Dulu said:

All of your worries seem to be legit.

They've said this game will be easy, and very casual-friendly. Only 5-player content, mainly cosmetic item differences, you can be in multiple guilds at once to discourage competition.

If that's not your thing, I'm sorry.

Explorable-mode dungeons, the elite continent of Orr, and competitve PvP would like to have a word with you.

To the OP: gear will have some impact, though not the make or break levels found in other MMOs. There will eventually be a cap on how powerful your items are, but there is always horizontal progression to focus on certain traits or attributes in lieu of others. There is PvP-awarded gear as well, to show off your status.

There are three explorable modes to every dungeon that are said to be tuned for extreme difficulty, and dynamic ecents in each one that serve as incentives to revisit even if the exclusive armors for the dungeon have been acquired, but no, these dungeon sets will not be required to visit the next chain in the series of dungeons. There are also elite dynamic events throughout the game, and notably on the continent of Orr, which houses the Big Bad of this installment.

In short, no, you should not be locked into one look or even playstyle when PvPing, you still get gear, and the draw in repeating or attempting content is to diversify your profile instead of adding +10 to your stats ad infinitum.

Finally, you don't have to play forever. I know it seems counter-intuitive to say it's okay to out down a game if you've seen all you want to see, but the fact is that MOST people playing the game don't exhaust the content at a high rate, and most MMOs can't keep up with that rate of consumption, either, even with raid gating. I know of plenty of gamers who unsub from their MMO of choice between content patches, so to expect GW2 to exceed that rate is a bit misguided IMO.

Oh, and just remember: accessible doesn't mean easy.

[Dream Catcher]

Dulu said:

I heard all of these same responses in...

Age of Conan, Darkfall, SWTOR, Aion, Rift, Warhammer...


People are so eager to throw their hopes and dreams onto a game they have never played.

Welcome to the forum, I am looking forward to more of your positive contributions in this thread and many others, optimism is much better than pessimism, it's kin to being happy is better than being sad, although there is a little flexibility, in general this is true.

Edited by Dream Catcher, 19 January 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Waar Kijk Je Naar]

Dulu said:

They've said this game will be easy, and very casual-friendly. Only 5-player content, mainly cosmetic item differences, you can be in multiple guilds at once to discourage competition.

Sorry, what?
Why do you think the game will be easy? Because there's no gear grind?

Only 5-player content? What about the largest part of the game - dynamic events?

Be in multiple guilds to discourage competition? What? It's because there's no reason to restrict people to only 1 guild.

[Mordakai]

Dulu said:

I heard all of these same responses in...

Age of Conan, Darkfall, SWTOR, Aion, Rift, Warhammer...


People are so eager to throw their hopes and dreams onto a game they have never played.

Guilty as charged.

But it's not blind faith.  I enjoyed GW1, and I appreciate what ArenaNet is trying to do.

In the end: it's just a game. It's not going to bring world peace or solve world hunger.

But am I expecting a fun game?  Yes.  And, with no monthly fee, there really is little risk.

[Matsy]

Even looking at the demos should be more than enough anyone needs to put doubts at rest.
The only thing they could do to screw it up would be to mess up the micro transactions.

[Fatalis]

Further more to add to Mordakai's reply:

Some of us HAVE played the game.

I played an what would be considered now to be a pretty old build of GW2 at PAX East 2011, however, ever since that day, I've tried playing other MMOs, however Anet's design philosophy always comes to me, and I see the abhorrent flaws within the games.

After playing what is possible, and playing what we have been content with, it's no surprise that many people are so excited for GW2.

[Randomessa]

Dulu said:

I heard all of these same responses in...

Age of Conan, Darkfall, SWTOR, Aion, Rift, Warhammer...


People are so eager to throw their hopes and dreams onto a game they have never played.

Having been in or known someone in each of those MMO betas, and having played GW2 both PvP and PvE while it was still pre-alpha, I call shenanigans. People were NOT saying as good things about those games, and in fact had litanies of issues that were largely not dealt with by launch.

Not sure why you'd want to read up on a game you were positive everyone was lying to you about, but I don't raid, either.

[Geobardi]

Dulu said:

All of your worries seem to be legit.

They've said this game will be easy, and very casual-friendly. Only 5-player content, mainly cosmetic item differences, you can be in multiple guilds at once to discourage competition.

If that's not your thing, I'm sorry.

Casual-friendly, maybe, easy, certainly not. Only 5-player dungeons is not 5-player content, multiple guilds to discourage competition?, really?, you can earn points for the guild you have active at that moment, and guilds can take and control fortress in WvWvW, i think you misunderstood a lot of the game, pal...

[Reflected Mirage]

I think anyone worried about gear should have played GW1. Unless you enjoy grinding and knowing that there's always going to be someone out there who's got better gear than you just because they've spent more time playing...

[lyphzgud]

i am surprized no one brough up the point of assigning attribute points to your character.

this will play a big role in pvp and pve.  the min / maxing type players will be able to find really good builds which can and will give you an edge.  and like other stated with the gear having difference stats to choose from.

i understand its hard for alot of people to forget old habbits from other mmo's, but its time for change.

[RobbleRunt]

Geobardi said:

Casual-friendly, maybe, easy, certainly not. Only 5-player dungeons is not 5-player content, multiple guilds to discourage competition?, really?, you can earn points for the guild you have active at that moment, and guilds can take and control fortress in WvWvW, i think you misunderstood a lot of the game, pal...

People need to wrap their heads around the idea that dungeons aren't the only form of content. Dungeons and Raids (dungeons just with more people)have been the standard "end game" for quite a long time now.