[Shoyon456]

Konig Des Todes said:

Oh, and guys, even if Sylvari could reproduce themselves, they are plants

Source please? Yes they come from a tree, and have plant characteristics such as leafy hair. However, last time I checked plants don't have or need mammary glands (boobs).

[Konig Des Todes]

Shoyon456 said:

Source please? Yes they come from a tree, and have plant characteristics such as leafy hair. However, last time I checked plants don't have or need mammary glands (boobs).

Everything about the Sylvari screams that they are plants. Except for the breasts - I don't know why Anet added them, perhaps to make the more humanoid (the belief for why they are humanoid in the first place is because the seed was buried on a mass grave and the Sylvari took the look of those buried in said grave).

For all we know, there are no mammary glands, just two lumps.

We're told in the Movement that they cannot reproduce - and everything about them (and some interviews with Anet) says they are plants. Just because they have lumps (like I said, do we know there are glands there? And if so, do they even function?). But even then, having glands doesn't make something not a plant. This is a fantasy world, after all, nothing says there can't be plants with animal-like qualities, but they're still plants.

[Shoyon456]

Konig Des Todes said:

Everything about the Sylvari screams that they are plants. Except for the breasts

And except for the fact that they don't make their own food, have roots to do so, have noses presumably to inhale O2, and of course that they're mobile.

Resembling plants doesn't necessarily make them plants.

Konig Des Todes said:

For all we know, there are no mammary glands, just two lumps.

True.

Konig Des Todes said:

We're told in the Movement that they cannot reproduce - and everything about them (and some interviews with Anet) says they are plants. ... But even then, having glands doesn't make something not a plant. This is a fantasy world, after all, nothing says there can't be plants with animal-like qualities, but they're still plants.

Movement of the World said:

Sylvari have no children, no families as such

Again, this doesn't necessarily mean that they can't reproduce, only that culturally they don't because there is no need or they are simply naive. It's never explicitly stated by the Movement or Anet they are plants. They say that they are "like" plants. Similarly to what I stated above, they're mobile. A literal definition of plant is "lacking locomotion." I think it's fairly clear that Sylvari have locomotion. Contrary to what you think, everything about them screams they are not plants but animals with plant characteristics.

Yes, this is a fantasy world, but it does adhere to certain logical and physical rules. You think that the Sylvari are plants with animal-qualities, while I say they are animals with plant-qualities. Either way, I say they are at least humanoid enough to reproduce with Humans.

EDIT: For obvious reasons, I'm not debating what type of cells they have as a support.

Edited by Shoyon456, 16 February 2010 - 03:33 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Shoyon456 said:

And except for the fact that they don't make their own food, have roots to do so, have noses presumably to inhale O2, and of course that they're mobile.

Sylvari resemble more of fruit than literal plants, I suppose, as they come from a tree. And we don't know if they inhale O2, they could very easily be inhaling carbon monoxide.

The mobile thing is a poor argument. I mean, would you say any of these, which are called plants in game dialogue, are not plants? Same thing with plants. I mean, sure, if you go by what animal means - that is, the origin being animus which means animation or to animate, i.e. to move - then even plants are animals, as while they move slowly, they move. Heck, atoms and air molecules would be animals, because they move! I hope you see the silliness of going that route.

Shoyon456 said:

It's never explicitly stated by the Movement or Anet they are plants. They say that they are "like" plants. [...] Contrary to what you think, everything about them screams they are not plants but animals with plant characteristics.

Incorrect:

Jeff Grubb said:

The last race is a new race, they are the Sylvari. And they are a race of plant creatures, who have basically only arrived in the last 25 years.

Jeff Grubb said:

The Sylvari have awoken, which is a plant-like race, which is new to this world, they feel it is their destiny to fight the dragons.

From the first two linked video interviews.

The second does say plant-like, however they seem to be more plants with animal characteristics than animals with plant characterstics - much like every other plant creature, some of which we see coming from farms and plants themselves.

Animals do not come from plants, just as plants do not come from animals. You said there must be adherence to logic, but having moving plants is not going against logic - remember, the terms for plants and animals are archaic and very much out of date. With what we know now, a lot more than what we call animals can be described the same as the word "animus."

[Shoyon456]

Konig Des Todes said:

Sylvari resemble more of fruit than literal plants, I suppose, as they come from a tree. And we don't know if they inhale O2, they could very easily be inhaling carbon monoxide.

In their birth origin, they resemble fruits more than plants. However that's about as far as the analogy goes there unfortunately. They have noses, noses indicate the presence of lungs. Now unless you care to tell me that there are lungs which inhale CO2 and exhale O2, that would point to them not being plants, no matter what world you're in.

Konig Des Todes said:

The mobile thing is a poor argument. I mean, would you say any of these, which are called plants in game dialogue, are not plants? ...I hope you see the silliness of going that route.

I hope you see the silliness in comparing to creatures with non humanoid forms to the Sylvari who have noses, hands, arms, legs, breasts, assumed "male-parts," and no stomata or roots to speak of.

Konig Des Todes said:

Incorrect:

The second does say plant-like, however they seem to be more plants with animal characteristics than animals with plant characterstics - much like every other plant creature, some of which we see coming from farms and plants themselves.

The first says "plant-creatures." There is a fine line between plant and animal. "Plant-creature" does nothing to show that it is definitely a plant. Your second quote supports this point of mine further.

Konig Des Todes said:

Animals do not come from plants, just as plants do not come from animals.

By far your best (and only legitimate) argument IMO. Yet, we are in an imaginary universe where laws such as this are regarded and disregarded at a whim. Besides, I would believe the birth of the Sylvari to be more mammalian in nature in the sense that they are "born" like babies. I believe they grow to that form while connected to the tree in a by a tube similar to the manner in which fetus' are fed by an umbilical cord in the womb. The problem that negates both of the ideas that they're either plant or animal is that they don't seem to age and have that collective hive-mind. A being that doesn't age makes them seem like something entirely removed from both, whereas a collective hive-mind would make them appear as some sort of super-developed sentient being.

The question is to what degree the Sylvari are humanoid. I would say having a non functional nose/breasts/male organs is unlikely and goes beyond just being based on animals, making them primarily animal.

Edited by Shoyon456, 16 February 2010 - 05:18 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Shoyon456 said:

In their birth origin, they resemble fruits more than plants. However that's about as far as the analogy goes there unfortunately. They have noses, noses indicate the presence of lungs. Now unless you care to tell me that there are lungs which inhale CO2 and exhale O2, that would point to them not being plants, no matter what world you're in.

I hope you see the silliness in comparing to creatures with non humanoid forms to the Sylvari who have noses, hands, arms, legs, breats, assumed "male-parts," and no stomata or roots to speak of.

You're assuming too much. You assume they have lungs, that their noses work, that they have mammal glands and, as you put it "male-parts" - Oakhearts have what could be noses, and Oakhearts and Stalkers have arms and legs. You're assuming too much and making a wild accusation because of such. Seeing how both have very similar origins, looks, and confirmed bodily functions, it isn't very silly to compare them.

Shoyon456 said:

Yet, we are in an imaginary universe where laws such as this are regarded and disregarded at a whim. Besides, I would believe the birth of the Sylvari to be more mammalian in nature in the sense that they are born fully developed. I believe they grow to that form while connected to the tree in a by a tube similar to the manner in which fetus' are fed by an umbilical cord in the womb.

This is rather contradictory with your previous support. In an imaginary universe, you can have something which looks like another kind of creature (in this case, a human), but it doesn't need to be related at all.

Shoyon456 said:

The question is to what degree the Sylvari are humanoid. I would say having a non functional nose/breasts/wee-wee goes beyond just being based on animals, making them primarily animal.

Just looking like something doesn't mean they are something. And again, your stance makes your previous support (breasts, noses, and "male-parts") unnecessary and rather pointless.

[Shoyon456]

Konig Des Todes said:

You're assuming too much. You assume they have lungs, that their noses work, that they have mammal glands and, as you put it "male-parts"

Noses or nose slits require lungs to actually do the work. A nonfunctional nose simply doesn't make sense, no matter what they are based on. Plus, the noses ARE functional as I point out below.

Konig Des Todes said:

- Oakhearts have what could be noses,

No, they clearly do not. Nor do Oakhearts breathe. However, watch the GW2 trailers, the Sylvaris' chests move up and down as they breathe. That is because of a diaphragm. A diaphragm is only necessary if there are lungs. Period. In short, we DO know the nose is functional because their chests move up and down as a result of it tunneling air to the lungs and being pushed out by the diaphragm.

Lungs utilize oxygen, not CO2. Plants breathe in CO2. Conclusion, Sylvari are not plants.

Konig Des Todes said:

Just looking like something doesn't mean they are something. And again, your stance makes your previous support (breasts, noses, and "male-parts") unnecessary and rather pointless.

The nose is functional. I say that the mere presence of breats and male animal sexual organs deems that they are not plants. I would also venture to say that they must be functional, or else they wouldn't be present. Breasts make them mammalian. Or are we going by how they "feel"? Yes, I suppose if you feel like they are plants, they are. Wrong, physical/bodily functions do determine in what manner we classify things.

[Konig Des Todes]

It is impossible to know who is wrong or right on that topic, Shoyon, unless a dev states that they are animals or plants - though they have stated they are plant creatures, which should show to anyone that they are plants. Don't know how more plain you can get.

And as said, it's a fantasy world, a plant may be breathing, a plant may have a nose and lungs, especially if their body is based off humans. This does not mean they are animals, it just means that they breath! Which, technically, plants do breath. What makes you so certain there are lungs inside them? Did you perform an autopsy on one and pulled out the lungs? Do you know that they breath in O2? In a fantasy world, can't there be organs which look like lungs and acts like lungs except in the fact that they take in CO2? In a fantasy world, can't there be plants which breath O2? After all, there have been fish in polluted water which have been observed to take in said polluted water and what is not O2 and living. Animals adapt and evolve - the same can happen with plants.

In short: We do not know either way. You failing to know that simple fact is why I'd rather not continue this argument.

Ballista said:

I was just throwing that out there because it sounded like people were talking about Sylvari reproduction. It was rhetorical, and no one asked you to answer with an accusative apology, I think you need to relax.

It wasn't accusative apology, but a statement of requesting clarification. Apologies for the miscommunication.

[Shoyon456]

Konig Des Todes said:

It is impossible to know who is wrong or right on that topic, Shoyon, unless a dev states that they are animals or plants - though they have stated they are plant creatures, which should show to anyone that they are plants.

Again, "plant-creatures" and "plant-like" do not mean they are plants. If they were plants, Grubb would have said "they're plants with human forms" or along those lines.

Konig Des Todes said:

And as said, it's a fantasy world, a plant may be breathing, a plant may have a nose and lungs, especially if their body is based off humans. This does not mean they are animals, it just means that they breath! Which, technically, plants do breath.

If a plant has a functioning nose and lungs...its not a plant. It's an animal. Plants "breathe" through photosynthesis, which does not take lungs or nose to do and inhales CO2 as opposed to lungs unitilizing O2.

Konig Des Todes said:

What makes you so certain there are lungs inside them? Did you perform an autopsy on one and pulled out the lungs? Do you know that they breath in O2?

Ill try to list my thoughts more clearly:
1. Lungs utilize oxygen, not CO2.
2. Plants utilize carbon dioxide via photosynthesis, not lungs.
3. Sylvaris' chest move up and down as they breathe.
4. The chest moves up in down because of the diaphragm
5. The diaphragm pushes air out of lungs and creates the pressure difference that draws air into the lungs.
6. The diaphragm that makes the Sylvaris' chest move up and down means they have lungs. Yes, I did an autopsy.
7. We don't know that they breathe in oxygen, but this would be unusual as it means it is not even a "lung" in the sense that we know it.

Konig Des Todes said:

In a fantasy world, can't there be organs which look like lungs and acts like lungs except in the fact that they take in CO2? In a fantasy world, can't there be plants which breath O2?

Ill admit there may be organs similar to lungs that take in CO2 instead of O2, however unlikely. However, I do not think even in a fantasy world there will be plants which breathe O2, as that would fundamentally change the meaning of "plant." Whereas the former would just be a new innovation to do the same thing plants do already.

Konig Des Todes said:

After all, there have been fish in polluted water which have been observed to take in said polluted water and what is not O2 and living. Animals adapt and evolve - the same can happen with plants.

Not sure of your point here. Yes animals adapt, however most fish have narrow niches (such as trout) that will mean 100% of the population dies if there is pollution or the wrong living environments. Fish absorb the pollution, but that doesn't remove it from the system immediately as its returned once the fish dies. Rather, the fish adds CO2 to the whole system that encourages bacterial growth and can help replenish the system. Again, I don't see the relation because the Sylvari came fully formed from the tree and to the best of our knowledge have not changed since.

Konig Des Todes said:

In short: We do not know either way. You failing to know that simple fact is why I'd rather not continue this argument.

You say that we do not know, yet you insist the Sylvari are plants. Those two contradict each other. And while you'd rather not continue this argument, you're more than happy to have the last word.

Edited by Shoyon456, 16 February 2010 - 06:16 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Shoyon456 said:

You say that we do not know, yet you insist the Sylvari are plants. Those two contradict each other. And while you'd rather not continue this argument, you're more than happy to have the last word.

I'm just going to comment on this, to keep this from becoming a quote wars. I am not contradicting myself, I have never once said I am right. I believe they are plants and I have presented my support. You believe they are animals and have presented your support. You claim you are right and that I am wrong, I have never done this, so don't think I have. I'd rather not continue this argument, but you bring up things which I feel I should comment on - it isn't that I want the last word, just as I didn't respond to most of your post, I can to any response to this, or could of done before; I just felt like responding for the sake of clarification.

Oh, there is one other thing I must comment on:

Shoyon456 said:

Yes, I did an autopsy.

I find this so increadibly humorous. I didn't know you had cut open a sylvari and observed their organs, which is an autopsy. Didn't know you could get up and personal with a non-existing being. :p

[Shoyon456]

Konig Des Todes said:

Oh, there is one other thing I must comment on:I find this so increadibly humorous. I didn't know you had cut open a sylvari and observed their organs, which is an autopsy. Didn't know you could get up and personal with a non-existing being. :p

As you'd like to clarify, I will do the same. I "dissected" the Sylvari using some basic anatomy and logic. The only difference is that it was not done physically.

EDIT: There's a technical name for that sort of thing, but I do not know it offhand.

Edited by Shoyon456, 16 February 2010 - 06:33 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

It was sarcasm, based on the fact what you did was not an autopsy but an observation and examination of said observation.

[tmakinen]

I would tend to say that it is a moot point to argue whether the sylvari are plants or animals when they are most certainly neither if you use the Terran biology definitions for those kingdoms. Essentially, they already are a mixed breed, chimeras with some contribution from both plants and humans, forged together through magic.

[Gregor Lightbringer]

tmakinen said:

I would tend to say that it is a moot point to argue whether the sylvari are plants or animals when they are most certainly neither if you use the Terran biology definitions for those kingdoms. Essentially, they already are a mixed breed, chimeras with some contribution from both plants and humans, forged together through magic.

Where magic is involved, anything is possible, but even that is dependent on how the writers want the magic implemented. The Sylvari could have the functional organs of a human, but yet still be plant-like in origin. Or, like some people have insinuated, it could be that they are plants in human form only. They DO, after all, come from a tree.

[Naoroji]

tl;dr

Just to come back at the 'Sylvari can't reproduce'-bit,... It was never explicitly stated that they couldn't, in fact, it was stated that they just haven't had the need to and thus don't know if they can, because the race (and thus the eldest of said race) is(/are) only 20 years old (20, or,... w/e).

[raspberry jam]

My 100% serious post seem to have fallen off the board somehow. Oh well.

On topic, it's a game, set in a world where plants not only move around but also for example throw rocks and cast spells. In other words can they be plants? Yes.

Are they plants? There are two ways to be sure:

• Wait for official lore. If the lore explicitly says that they are plants, then they are. Until then we can speculate, but might be proven wrong.
  
• Wait until we can perform in-game testing:
  
  • If there is any sort of "vs Plants" weapon mods in GW2, we can test those on a willing sylvari subject. Extra damage would mean that sylvari are indeed either plants or some sort of combination, lack of it would mean that they are definitely not plants.
    
  • If there are any "plant-like" characteristics, such as taking double damage from fire, that could be used to test in the same way. Of course since that is a characteristic, the result of this test can never be anything but a strong suggestion - sylvari might take double damage from fire naturally, regardless of their plant status.
    
  • Edge of Extinction-like skills, that affect creatures of a certain "type" can be used to test if sylvari are plants. Of course, that test can only be used if sylvari are not considered "special" and not of the same type as other plants.

[Feathermoore]

Shoyon....about the whole breathing thing. You do know that plants breath O2 right? Yes they use CO2 and make O2, but at the same time, plants respire just like animals and take in O2 and make CO2. Your breathing argument is moot.

Also, why do lungs have to use O2? We have countless examples of alien races in science fiction with lungs that are used to "breath" other gasses. Ammonia is one that I know of off the top of my head (I think I know of a Nitrogen example as well).


You seem to be basing the entire argument off of how they look, and your strongest point is noses and lungs. Well...since plants breath O2 on earth the argument is completely moot.

As for why they would need lungs. It takes alot of energy to move, energy that earth plants just don't have (much do to inifficient breathing as O2 is the main thing needed to move). Lungs would allow for a plant to pump O2 into a muscular system to be able to move like an animal, without this, the plant would most likely never be able to move much faster than a crawl.

Edited by Feathermoore, 16 February 2010 - 03:11 PM.

[Geroui]

This is more of a lore discussion so this should be probably moved as Naoroji.

I personally will not play a sylvari.. I will roleplay my Norn as respecting the nature and ideas of the sylvari, but still not totally trusting them, same as the asura. As for plants or animals there is more something one of the Lore posters would know lol.

[Kerose]

Feathermoore said:

Shoyon....about the whole breathing thing. You do know that plants breath O2 right? Yes they use CO2 and make O2, but at the same time, plants respire just like animals and take in O2 and make CO2. Your breathing argument is moot.


As for why they would need lungs. It takes alot of energy to move, energy that earth plants just don't have (much do to inifficient breathing as O2 is the main thing needed to move). Lungs would allow for a plant to pump O2 into a muscular system to be able to move like an animal, without this, the plant would most likely never be able to move much faster than a crawl.

Just want to point out that breathing =/= the type of respiration you're talking about. Plants do cellular respiration which is not the same thing as breathing. The function of breathing is to oxygenate the blood while the function of cellular respiration is to provide energy for the plant.

So actually the breathing argument isn't moot.

Plants don't have blood so generally there is no major use for O2 within plants. They actually give off O2 as a by product of their cellular functions(photosynthesis).

Whether sylvari have blood or not could probably be a deciding factor in how they utilize O2 or CO2...

Edited by Kerose, 16 February 2010 - 03:58 PM.
specification/ better wording

[Clobimon]

Interesting discussion going on here. I don't really know how it fits into the lore except for being told if they're a plant, animal or plant-like animal by the creators (ANet) and going from there. Whichever the truth is, players just have to accept it as a feasible living creature. Trying to apply common functions of life to a ficticious being doesn't work so well, just as it doesn't always for actual life. It takes a scientific mind and a belief that anything is possible in the universe. There is life at the bottom of Challenger Deep and living bacteria 25 miles above the Earth's surface, two places where it was unfathomable not so long ago. Heck, we accept the idea of the Norn shape-shifting into animals, but struggle with a walking, talking plant-like sentient species? :)

[raspberry jam]

Kerose said:

Plants don't have blood

RIght but note that certain plants in GW have blood, or at least can receive the bleeding condition.

[Kerose]

raspberry jam said:

RIght but note that certain plants in GW have blood, or at least can receive the bleeding condition.

I know :P I was more trying to make a point about cellular respiration vs breathing.

I would think that Sylvari have blood/bleeding, but I suppose nothing is a sure thing now.

[Lord Bazaah]

Naoroji said:

@ Bazaah, spaceman; for a lot of people lore is a large part of their gaming experience. For them, the game gets better the more sense lore makes. Which is why they try to find out every bit background information there is. Don't ridicule people for it.

Btw. I think a move to the Priory is in order.

If this were in the Lore section I wouldn't have bothered posting, but since it is in the Discussion section... I have the right to state my opinion on the matter.

[Big Ol Norn]

They're a mythical creature, so they can have any kind of feature. Does a mermaid, or a half-human centaur make sense? No, but it's interesting to us because it's more like human beings. Have a sense of fantasy, that's what GW is afterall. ;)

[TERIYAKI FURY]

i consider them plants, not humans, but they can have humanlike features.

[Feathermoore]

Kerose said:

Just want to point out that breathing =/= the type of respiration you're talking about. Plants do cellular respiration which is not the same thing as breathing. The function of breathing is to oxygenate the blood while the function of cellular respiration is to provide energy for the plant.

So actually the breathing argument isn't moot.

Plants don't have blood so generally there is no major use for O2 within plants. They actually give off O2 as a by product of their cellular functions(photosynthesis).

Whether sylvari have blood or not could probably be a deciding factor in how they utilize O2 or CO2...

I admit that breathing is a bad word choice, but the point is still the same and not at all invalidated by the method in which it is done. It is a different process, but a plant still must have O2.

The energy and speed at which cells have to move for an entire organism to move is much higher than is seen in most plants (venus flytrap and then the plant thats leaves snap shut when brushed are the only examples I know of of plants capable of quick movements, but they are only capable of a quick movement in one direction, more like a spring).



The lung point is moot as it means nothing. Lungs are not required to be an animal, nor are they a feature that makes something not a plant (we just dont have plants with lung like structures). Nor do we know what gas the Sylvari are using. As such, it is moot since there is no logical way to argue any idea based around it.

Anyways, lungs do not an animal make (nor do lungs have to be used for O2, they only imply that a gas is required for life). The only way we could say whether the Sylvari are plants or animals (in an earth sense) is if we knew whether Sylvari had cell walls. (photosynthesis does not a plant make)

[Khaal]

Re: Shoyon and Konig

You're both right about certain aspects, making you both wrong overall. The simple fact of the matter is that the Sylvari cannot be classified as plant or animal. We'll have to come up with a new kingdom for them... However.

As a huge physics enthusiast I can tell you that fireballs from the sky, controlled lightning and summoning undead minions is completely stoopid[sic], but I still like to play it. While we want as much of the game's mechanics to make sense, we must give to a suspension of disbelief, or we'll never be able to play the game.

[Huginn]

Khaal said:

Cats often eat grass, not for nutritional purposes, but to aid in digestion...

You speak the truth, though he said breakfast, which is a meal that is suposed to keep you "alive" until the next meal. If he meant that he would eat Sylvaris to digest his breakfast better, he would have said so ;)

And I don't think you would say that something to aid your digestion is a delicacy. :p

Still, several meat eaters eat greens from time to time as you said.

[Whisper]

Khaal said:

Re: Shoyon and Konig

You're both right about certain aspects, making you both wrong overall. The simple fact of the matter is that the Sylvari cannot be classified as plant or animal. We'll have to come up with a new kingdom for them... However.

As a huge physics enthusiast I can tell you that fireballs from the sky, controlled lightning and summoning undead minions is completely stoopid[sic], but I still like to play it. While we want as much of the game's mechanics to make sense, we must give to a suspension of disbelief, or we'll never be able to play the game.

Mandragor would probably be the right section to place the sylvari into neither plant nor animal yet both..

[Konig Des Todes]

As said, this should be moved to the Durmand Priory forum. I would move it, but I don't have mod powers here.

raspberry jam said:

Wait for official lore. If the lore explicitly says that they are plants, then they are. Until then we can speculate, but might be proven wrong.

You see, in one of the very first interviews, they were said to be "plant creatures" - what else are plant creatures? Oakhearts, Stalkers, Aloes, etc. etc. They were point blank stated to be plant creatures, thus they would be plants.

A creature is not always an animal (which I think is why Shoyon says it doesn't count), a creature is just simply an animate being, or in some cases just something that is created (animate or inanimate), which includes plants.

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Geroui said:

Asura are fish? I guess my Norn will be eating your race then..

Asura are Mammals, it was confirmed by Ree via Martin in the fan-fiction forum (someone made a fan-fiction of an Asura laying eggs and apparently it shocked Ree xD).

Khaal said:

While we want as much of the game's mechanics to make sense, we must give to a suspension of disbelief, or we'll never be able to play the game.

I do have a suspension of disbelief, I think that specific details (respiration and having a nose=lungs and lungs=takes in O2 idea, for instance) could easily be overlooked - that is my suspension of disbelief - while the obvious and general details (being called plant creatures, coming from a tree, and acting similarly to all other plant creatures) should not be overlooked.
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