[Sha Noran]

The Norn worship the animal spirits, so the animal spirits hook them up. Classic, really.

Now interesting discussion can be spawned from trying to determine who the animal spirits are and where they got such power that they can bestow such an awesome gift to their followers...

Mod Edit: I moved this post to its own thread from another to try to inspire a discussion on this topic, so please discuss.

[Konig Des Todes]

On the "why" aspect of the spirits being able to give the shape shifting powers to the norn. I'll be sticking with my old theory that the Spirits of the Wild are similar to the avatars and facets - mere representations of the gods, created by them (and all are ghostly as well). Reason for this connection is in a few things:

• In Raven's Point, the shrine to the Raven Spirit is right next to two statues to Grenth which boarder the door leading to the shrine.
  
• In the quest Wintersday Cheer, spirits and creatures are summoned from the Underworld, the Spirit of the Wild being called? Raven.
  
• Though this isn't really a good point, before I thought Wolf was tied to Melandru due to the hunting aspect, but since Wolf is a "he" and Balthazar is connected to wolves by human standards, I feel those two are the best connection between Spirits of the Wild and the Six Gods.
  
• A follow up of the three previous: Ravens are usually connected with death and wisdom, and likewise, Grenth, the God of Death, is connected to wisdom in some aspects as well (primarily seen in the House Durheim.
  
• A last conclusion, the Bear spirit (and the last that we know anything about) is considered both female and the "top" of the Spirits of the Wild - Dwayna, who's the leader of the gods.

Very loose support, but not much is known of the Spirits of the Wild or how they act still...

[Shew]

@Konig Gahhh. If I was at my house atm, I would look in the art book to double-check-- maybe someone will check for me--the statue page. I'm almost positive the statue of Balthazar has wolves at the base.

[Edge]

Konig Des Todes said:

but since Wolf is a "he" and Balthazar is connected to wolves by human standards, I feel those two are the best connection between Spirits of the Wild and the Six Gods.

If you look at the statues in the Artbook that are on page 54, they sort of resemble Grenth (on the left) and Balthazar (on the right). They could be just normal statues, or new statues for the gods. But the statue on the right has wolves at its base. So that could link Balthazar with the wolf.

Edit: Shew :p

[Konig Des Todes]

Indeed, there are two statues of Balthazar in the Art of GW2 book, but that isn't the only case of Balthazar being shown with wolves. One other case is the dervish avatar - there are wolf heads on the shoulders.

[Feathermoore]

Konig Des Todes said:

Indeed, there are two statues of Balthazar in the Art of GW2 book, but that isn't the only case of Balthazar being shown with wolves. One other case is the dervish avatar - there are wolf heads on the shoulders.

Isn't there a mural somewhere with Balthy having a wolf?

[Shew]

So...:
Balthazar --> Wolf
Dwayna -- Bear
Grenth -- Raven
Lyssa -->
Melandru -->
Kormir (if she counts) -->

The only problem is that we don't know anything about the Snow Leopard spirit, and we'd be one or two (if Kormir is included) short.

[Konig Des Todes]

Not necessarily - there are the (still unconfirmed) Snow Lynx (believed to be retcon'd into Snow Leopard), Eagle (highly unlikely to still be around), Owl (perfect for the God/dess of Knowledge (Kormir/Abaddon)), Wurm, and Ox/Bison.

I think Owl is linked to Kormir/Abaddon, Wurm to Lyssa, which leaves Snow Leopard to Melandru. Though with two comments, Bison is bound to still be around. Which then creates the previous issue with this - there's too many spirits to be 1 to 1 with the gods...

[Shew]

You'd think each god/goddess (again, Kormir is questionable) would be associated with a primary spirit, though, and there are only four of those.

[Abbadon]

Shew said:

You'd think each god/goddess (again, Kormir is questionable) would be associated with a primary spirit, though, and there are only four of those.

Or the spirits could all be under Melandru's control.

[Huginn]

Or my favorite, they aren't really connected with the gods in anyway ;)

Leave my spirits alone! :qq:

"Norn have no need of more human influences. We are Norn!"

[Legion]

Huginn said:

Or my favorite, they aren't really connected with the gods in anyway ;)

Leave my spirits alone! :qq:

"Norn have no need of more human influences. We are Norn!"

I agree. The human gods should not be the only source of power os this world.

[Abbadon]

Huginn said:

Or my favorite, they aren't really connected with the gods in anyway ;)

Leave my spirits alone! :qq:

"Norn have no need of more human influences. We are Norn!"

Ok, I'm tired of all this "human gods" talk, the gods did the inhabitants of Tyria not just humans, but all the sentient races, a huge favour by giving them access to magic.

It doesn't matter if the Norn, Charr, Asuran or the Sylvari don't believe in them, because it doesn't take away their status or power.

As for the disdain that has been directed towards gods from the other races,those races must be thankful that the gods aren't as petty or jealous as the mortal races can be.

Cause I would love to see the gods return to Tyria and teach these lesser beings some respect.

[Huginn]

Abbadon said:

Ok, I'm tired of all this "human gods" talk, the gods did the inhabitants of Tyria not just humans, but all the sentient races, a huge favour by giving them access to magic.

It doesn't matter if the Norn, Charr, Asuran or the Sylvari don't believe in them, because it doesn't take away their status or power.

As for the disdain that has been directed towards gods from the other races,those races must be thankful that the gods aren't as petty or jealous as the mortal races can be.

Cause I would love to see the gods return to Tyria and teach these lesser beings some respect.

I speak for my fellow norn when i say that, we know the gods exists, though, the lame ways the humans follow them is sickening for a norn. Humans go into battle praying that the battle would be won, while the Norn make the battle be won by... well, fighting :p

[Konig Des Todes]

Legion said:

I agree. The human gods should not be the only source of power os this world.

They aren't. Elder Dragons, the True Gods (I refuse to call them "human gods" because there are far more than just humans which worship them), and the Mists.

The Mists is above everything, and could even be on par to Thalador's vision of a god (which is even greater than the typical monotheistic god).

Examples of races which worship the gods: Forgotten, Dwarves (Grenth and Dwayna, as shown via Wintersday NPCs and Ural Highstone), possibly Grawl, possibly Naga, possibly Centaurs, possibly Harpies, and possibly more that we don't know of.

We don't have any hint at what faith - if any - Tengu, Seer, Mursaat, Yeti, Hekets/Frogmen, Jotun, Djinn, Krait, Skales, and we don't even know if the semi-intelligent races or possibly intelligent races like Ettins, Fleshreavers, and others.

Huginn said:

I speak for my fellow norn when i say that, we know the gods exists, though, the lame ways the humans follow them is sickening for a norn. Humans go into battle praying that the battle would be won, while the Norn make the battle be won by... well, fighting :p

I hope you know that for humans, their prayers are their spells. So without praying - in the humans' view - then there would only be Warriors and Rangers.

And please stop taking your desires to be facts and accept the evidence for the possibility of what you not wanting to be truth.

[Huginn]

Konig Des Todes said:

I hope you know that for humans, their prayers are their spells. So without praying - in the humans' view - then there would only be Warriors and Rangers.

And please stop taking your desires to be facts and accept the evidence for the possibility of what you not wanting to be truth.

I know it might be true yes and i do see you got valid points, but i still want an official statment from anet. :p

I got an expresion or maybe more like a thing I say when ppl can't see the truth. "It's like talking to a wall" I guess I'm that guy now huh? ;)

[Konig Des Todes]

Just to note, I'm not against you disagreeing - I'm glad there's people who are. It's just that I am against you stating as a fact that I am wrong, with absolutely no support on your side.

[Edge]

Konig Des Todes said:

Not necessarily - there are the (still unconfirmed) Snow Lynx (believed to be retcon'd into Snow Leopard), Eagle (highly unlikely to still be around), Owl (perfect for the God/dess of Knowledge (Kormir/Abaddon)), Wurm, and Ox/Bison.

I think Owl is linked to Kormir/Abaddon, Wurm to Lyssa, which leaves Snow Leopard to Melandru. Though with two comments, Bison is bound to still be around. Which then creates the previous issue with this - there's too many spirits to be 1 to 1 with the gods...

I honestly doubt that, at most they may exist, but will not be selectable spirits. I think 4 the spirits we officially know will be the only 4. It appears each race is going to have a racial background choice of 4 links. (4 Kingdoms, 4 legions, 4 colleges, 4 seasons, 4 spirits)

Even if we do link the spirits with the gods, it doesn't necessarily mean that each god will have his or her own spirit. It's like Grenth and Balthazar having their own realm in GW, the other 4 may or may not have a realm, but it sure isn't accessible to players.

Edited by Edge, 18 February 2010 - 09:18 AM.

[draxynnic]

Heh. Once again today, it seems I've posted in the wrong thread...

Anyway, I'm going to agree with the speculation that Snow Leopard may be Melandru, although with a different justification: Because Melandru has shown an affinity for felines before (namely, the Melandru's Stalker).

Lyssa and Kormir, if they have analagous animal spirits at all, seem to be low on the totem pole, which makes sense when you think about it - their portfolios seem to be on the whole less important to the Norn, and those aspects of their portfolios that are seem to have been folded into the other animal spirits (Raven has trickery and cunning, Bear has wisdom).

Konig Des Todes said:

I hope you know that for humans, their prayers are their spells. So without praying - in the humans' view - then there would only be Warriors and Rangers.

I'm not sure I agree with this - Monks, Dervishes and Ritualists certainly seem to be fuelled by piety, but Mesmers, Elementalists and Necromancers seem to at least require some level of academic study. It strikes me that at least in the case of the latter three, the relevant gods may "open the door" to their followers, but members of those professions, and probably of all spellcasting professions regardless of some being referred to as "prayers", are actually wielding magic directly rather than begging miracles off the gods.

[Edge]

draxynnic said:

I'm not sure I agree with this - Monks, Dervishes and Ritualists certainly seem to be fuelled by piety, but Mesmers, Elementalists and Necromancers seem to at least require some level of academic study. It strikes me that at least in the case of the latter three, the relevant gods may "open the door" to their followers, but members of those professions, and probably of all spellcasting professions regardless of some being referred to as "prayers", are actually wielding magic directly rather than begging miracles off the gods.

I think he references the fact that the gods gave Tyria the gift of magic itself. Without that gift it would cease to exist, and only cold steel would play a role in classes.

[TriggerSad]

Edge said:

I honestly doubt that, at most they may exist, but will not be selectable spirits. I think 4 the spirits we officially know will be the only 4. It appears each race is going to have a racial background choice of 4 links. (4 Kingdoms, 4 legions, 4 colleges, 4 seasons, 4 spirits)

Actually... Charr and Asura only have three backgrounds to choose from...
Charr: Ash Legion, Iron Legion, and Blood Legion.
Asura: College of Dynamics, College of Synergetics, and College of Statics.

[Edge]

TriggerSad said:

Actually... Charr and Asura only have three backgrounds to choose from...
Charr: Ash Legion, Iron Legion, and Blood Legion.
Asura: College of Dynamics, College of Synergetics, and College of Statics.

What about the Gold/Flame Legion? I'm also guessing they will add a 4th college.

[Shew]

Edge said:

What about the Gold/Flame Legion?

The Gold Legion is probably evil, as the shamans are members of it.

[Edge]

Shew said:

The Gold Legion is probably evil, as the shamans are members of it.

But is it confirmed that players will not be able to join it?

[Abbadon]

Quote

But is it confirmed that players will not be able to join it?

It has been comfirmed that players cannot join them.

[Thalador]

Konig Des Todes said:

In Raven's Point, the shrine to the Raven Spirit is right next to two statues to Grenth which boarder the door leading to the shrine.

Which could've been added after the initial crystal-structures and the room were "carved".

Quote

A last conclusion, the Bear spirit (and the last that we know anything about) is considered both female and the "top" of the Spirits of the Wild - Dwayna, who's the leader of the gods.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. While true, Bear is the mightiest and she was the spirit who blessed the Norn with the shapeshifting ability, according to the myth, it does not make her the "leader".

GW:EN Manuscripts said:

the most powerful of these is the Bear Spirit, who, according to myth, blessed the Norn with the ability to change shape and “become the bear.”

We've learnt it from the second trailer that Hoelbrak serves as meeting spot for the Norn, who travel/live there to listen to the Spirits of the Wild. And the recent interviews point at the thought that every totem is equal to each other. The only difference between Bear and the others is - aside from the fact that she was the most favoured in GW:EN - is that Bear had a lot of role and reference in GW:EN, thus it seemed that she was the leader.

If the relation between the gods and the spirits is a true assumption - better not be -, then I'm curious which gods symbolize the hostile spirits ?

Egil Fireteller said:

There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world... spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way.

Darkness - Menzies
Mountains - ?
Fire - ?
Seasons - ?

And the fact the spirits of the seasons are malicious spirits contradicts the god relation. After all, each god is the symbol of the seasons:

Zephyr - Air - Spring - Dwayna
Phoenix - Fire - Summer - Balthazar
Colossus - Earth - Autumn - Melandru
Scion - Water - Winter - Grenth

(Maybe Zephyr and Colossus should be interchanged - so Zephyr is Autumn and Colossus is Spring)

Edited by Thalador, 18 February 2010 - 04:11 PM.

[draxynnic]

Thalador: If the Grenth statues were placed there after the Shrine of the Raven, who did it? The Norn seem to be the race most likely to have done any recent building in the area, and we know they don't worship Grenth - at least, not knowingly.

It would actually make more sense if the statues of Grenth were older than the Raven Shrine - then the place could have been a shrine to Grenth before the Norn arrived, then the Norn realised its connection to things associated with Raven and placed the Raven shrine there. Overall, though, I do feel that Raven at least is a servant or aspect of Grenth - the overlaps are just too strong for them to be different entities, and I doubt that Grenth would willingly share dominion over the underworld with an animal spirit.

Now, it's possible that the other spirits are independant of the gods, although this raises the question of why Grenth and Raven may be connected while the others aren't. One possibility could be that Raven actually came first - while Bear is the strongest by tradition, Grenth may well have started out as an animal spirit before overthrowing Dhuum.

The seasons thing doesn't really strike me as a major issue - if the animal spirits are the gods engaging in an elaborate facade, it would make sense that there would be differences in their religious context rather than simple name-swapping.

Edge said:

I think he references the fact that the gods gave Tyria the gift of magic itself. Without that gift it would cease to exist, and only cold steel would play a role in classes.

Plenty of races we know don't pray to the gods (such as the Charr) use magic, however. This suggests that while the gods may be responsible for making magic usable by mortals, its use doesn't involve praying to the gods for intervention. In fact, if every spell had to go through the god in question, the Bloodstones would never have been needed (the gods could simply have denied any prayer that they didn't approve of, such as "please drop a shower of crystalline meteorites to devastate the nation of my enemies".)

[Thalador]

You slightly misunderstood me. I was talking about the crystal-structures and the room where those strange formations are. I even mentioned them in my post.

Also, the statues could've easily been an addition, but the question is, who built it over there. The first reference about Grenth comes from 48 BE, so the builders had a lot of time to construct it. And those monuments are clearly the human imagination of Grenth, so maybe there were humans in the far north long before our characters.

And you fully forgot that we encounter a fallen nature spirit (and it is not related to any of the gods): Nulfastu, Earthbound

Notorious Foe: Nulfastu, Earthbound said:

Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next.

But now that I read it. I have the very strong feeling that this spirit is related to Abaddon somehow...

But, it's just a brainstorm. Until confirmation in-game (Guild Wars 2), I highly doubt that the gods are the different facades of the human gods. It would be too much, I think: Avatars, Facets and now animal and nature spirits? :eek:

[Konig Des Todes]

Edge said:

I honestly doubt that, at most they may exist, but will not be selectable spirits. I think 4 the spirits we officially know will be the only 4. It appears each race is going to have a racial background choice of 4 links. (4 Kingdoms, 4 legions, 4 colleges, 4 seasons, 4 spirits)

I never said that there would be more than four form or totem, that's not related to this discussion at all. The discussion is about the origins/source of power of the Spirits of the Wild - not about which spirits allow forms. Also, there are 3 playable legions and 3 colleges.

draxynnic said:

I'm not sure I agree with this - Monks, Dervishes and Ritualists certainly seem to be fuelled by piety, but Mesmers, Elementalists and Necromancers seem to at least require some level of academic study. It strikes me that at least in the case of the latter three, the relevant gods may "open the door" to their followers, but members of those professions, and probably of all spellcasting professions regardless of some being referred to as "prayers", are actually wielding magic directly rather than begging miracles off the gods.

I was mainly basing off of the beta stories which describe Mhenlo's use of powers being prayers. I don't know your source for Ritualists, but it would seem to me that, since the nature of the spells of Monks and Dervishes are like any other profession (with slight alterations here and there), then I wouldn't doubt that all spells can be viewed as "prayers."

Also, Monks require (or at least take) academic studying (all professions do) - best found out via the mentions of the smiting monk monastery and, the biggest source, Shing Jea Monastery (along with the trainers in Nightfall).

Edge said:

What about the Gold/Flame Legion? I'm also guessing they will add a 4th college.

They are the antagonists to the charr - the charr equivalent of the Nightmare Court and the Sons of Svanir. Confirmed to be not playable.

@Thalador and Draxynnic: On the Bear Spirit's leadership - I never said leadership, I said that they are the ones "on top" - this doesn't mean leader, just that they are the most important.

On the Grenth Statues/Raven Shrine/Crystals. I think that the order of the structures' creation is: Crystals, then Grenth Statue, then Raven Shrine. Note however, there are two things to keep in mind: The Depths of Tyria predate humanity in Tyria - meaning that the statues could be older than humanity, or might not. The Shrine is obviously the most recent - but whether they are directly connected to Grenth (and was placed there due to the connection to Grenth), or was just a "this looks good for Raven's shrine" and just happened to be in the same place as a shrine(?) to Grenth.

How I see it, two possibilities, depending on whether the hypothesis is true. Like I said my support is not the best, but the lack of good support is not due to the lack of truth, but the lack of knowledge on the Spirits of the Wild.

On the nature spirits (Vaettir): I think that they, like the Djinn, are spirits who take aspects of the nature to them. Similarly, I'd say the same for the Nightmare enemies seen in Kryta and the Ring of Fire, and the Druid/Ravagers in the Maguuma. Them being hostile is their own choosing. I don't think these spirits are connected to the gods, or there rivals, in any way.

[Ravious]

Except for an Asuran calling a Norn an ignorant clod, is there any point where the Asurans talk about Norns?

I would guess that not all spirits are related to the gods... like there is another gear in the Great Wheel, that comprises spirits. Not to say the purview of Melandru might not overlap with the spirits, but I don't think the two are related.

The best evidence against it is each god doesn't have an analogous animal spirit as far as we know. If they chose to show themselves to the Norn differently than humans, I would assume that it would match up somehow.