[Ravious]

The latest hint dropping by ArenaNet loremaster, Jeff Grubb, really made my headspin when he off-handedly decided to bring up the Forgotten. He said "The facets are interesting (this is a reference to a set of quests in Eye of the North in which the player tracks down the facets of the various gods for a researching asura). They are not the gods themselves, but rather ghostly servants, and are tied to the Forgotten, who are not minions of the Elder Dragons." (empahsis mine)

We have two new Forgotten facts:
(1) Forgotten are tied to the facets, which are ghostly servants; and
(2) Forgotten are not minions of the Elder Dragons.

Before I discuss their lynchpin role in things, let's look at the Forgotten.

The Forgotten arrive in Tyria in 1769 BE from the Rift. Siliss Yassith claimed that the Forgotten were the first race to rule Tyria, and the world was at peace until the humans came. Sariss Yassith believed that the Forgotten may be the most ancient race to walk on the world of Tyria. The human gods arrived in Tyria a little time before the humans came to the world, but not by much. The History of Tyria claims that the human gods summoned the Forgotten.

The first known historical reference to humans is their arrival in Cantha nearly a millenium later in 786 BE. In Cantha, the Forgotten let the humans thrive.

Again almost a millennium after the human arrival in to Cantha (174 AE), the Forgotten leave the world of men and settle in the Crystal Desert, where Siliss Yassith claimed they swore fealty to Glint. However, the Primeval Kings continue to utilize the Crystal Desert as a burial grounds from before the time the Forgotten egress (29 AE) until the Scarab Plague (452 AE). The History of Tyria claims, in conflict, that the Forgotten left the world of men less than a century after humans made it to Tyria.

The next human contact with the Forgotten is in 868 AE when Turai Ossa leads the Great Pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert. According to Tirzah, an "event" destroyed the Great Pilgrimage. Sariss Yassith met with Annelle Fipps to tell her the secrets of Ascension, and Sariss is still alive centuries later when we meet the Forgotten.

Finally in 1072 AE we have first contact with the Forgotten when we journey to the Crystal Desert. Except for Sariss Yassith and Siliss Yassith, the Forgotten and their servants fight us. Their supposed master Glint uses them to challenge/defend her lair before we have audience with her.

In 1075 AE we find the Forgotten have another charge to maintain the Realm of Torment and keep Abaddon imprisoned. The Forgotten there do not mention Glint at all, and seem to be in league with the gods. High Priest Zhellix specifically prays for "the gods" to be with "us" on the assault against Mallyx. Keeper Jinyssa also claims that the Realm of Torment prison is the gods doing. It is believed that the Realm of Torment prison was created in 0 AE.

In 1078 AE, with the events leading to the downfall of The Great Destroyer, the Forgotten are dismissed. In fact, the Brotherhood of the Dragon, being a band of hardy dwarves are the ones assigned to protect Glint's baby in the Crystal Desert.

From the Forgotten's beliefs we are led to believe that they were the first race on Tyria. We know that the gods predated the human arrival, but not by much. The fallible History of Tyria, written by Thadeus Lamount (a Tyrian historian), claimed that the human gods summoned the Forgotten. If this is true then the Forgotten only arrived "not by much" before the humans, and furthermore, the humans were in the world somewhere long before their arrival in Cantha.

However, humans not have an origin story discussing any lands other than the regions of Tyria, Cantha, or Elona. Jeff Grubb hints that the "human homeland" may be further south, but the existence of such a homeland can only be speculation at this point. If there was such a place, it is possible that the Forgotten were unaware of the "human homeland."

Regardless of whether the human gods summoned the Forgotten or the Forgotten appeared before the arrival of the human gods, the Forgotten's first mission seemed to be on preparing the world. They did this until the humans took over. It does not seem like the Forgotten gave their job to the humans. Siliss Yassith tells us that the Forgotten were driven by the savage humans from the lands.

It seems at this point that we have two factions of the Forgotten. One faction becomes servants to Glint in the Crystal Desert, and the other faction maintains the Realm of Torment for the human gods. It is possible, however, that Glint charged the Forgotten to maintain Abaddon's prison, but the Forgotten don't discuss Glint while in the Realm of Torment. After the fall of Abaddon and Mallyx, the Forgotten in the Realm of Torment stay to fix the realm for Kormir.

This creates a kind of conflict, or makes the Forgotten seem more like a servitor race. They work for the human gods, believably in caretaking of the pre-human world, and knowingly in maintaining the Realm of Torment. However it is the human gods' chosen, the humans, that run the Forgotten off to Glint in the Crystal Desert.

During the events of Eye of the North, the Brotherhood of the Dragon, which also follows Glint, defended Glint's dragon baby in the Crystal Desert. One plausible explanation is that Glint was beset on all sides by the Destroyers, and needed the additional help of the Brotherhood. Yet, it is hard to believe that there would be no Forgotten presence in the defense of the child dragon in their final realm.

Finally we come full circle and learn recently that the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed and are ghost servants tied to the Forgotten. The facets appear in the Dragon's Lair mission and The Path to Revelations quest line. There are 12 facets in number having names such as Chaos, Light, Existence, and Death. This is where the knot tangles. Are the human gods and Forgotten using the same power? Are the human gods using the Forgotten, which are themselves conduits of power? Or, were the Forgotten drawn to Tyria by the Elder Dragon's power the same as the human gods? The human gods just knew how to use the power better.

Regardless, the Forgotten seem to be the stepchildren of Tyria. They were brought here to do work (not to conquer or colonize). They were forcibly kicked around by the humans. They were sent to "hell" to guard the thing that was trying to get out. And, they ran off to mama Glint only to be told to guard Ascension against the humans for humans.

What role will they play in Guild Wars 2? Will they make a last stand in the Crystal Desert with Glint? Will they hide out with Kormir in her realm? Or is their time on Tyria over with their story being forgotten and their good acts being forsaken?

[Thalador]

Excellent essay/thesis, Ravious!

I have never noticed that the Forgotten in the Realm of Torment don't speak of Glint. It's quite interesting. Maybe there was a schism between them? Siliss and his group chose to guard Glint and pursue their unknown goals, while Zhellix and the rest of the Forgotten remained with the gods and accepted the task of keeping Abaddon shackled.

Now that you mention, it is weird indeed that there was no Forgotten present while we heroically protected the Dragon Baby. As you've said it yourself, maybe they were surrounded by the Destroyers. But why did Glint send her offspring into that other crystal shard? I think the baby would've been safer if it had stayed with its mother.

A weird thought came to my mind: what if Glint and the Forgotten protecting her died, and the only hope of Tyria is the Dragon Baby ("now", 250 years later)? The chances are low, but who knows?

[Mister_Smiley]

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

Excellent essay/thesis, Ravious!

I have never noticed that the Forgotten in the Realm of Torment don't speak of Glint. It's quite interesting. Maybe there was a schism between them? Siliss and his group chose to guard Glint and pursue their unknown goals, while Zhellix and the rest of the Forgotten remained with the gods and accepted the task of keeping Abaddon shackled.

Now that you mention, it is weird indeed that there was no Forgotten present while we heroically protected the Dragon Baby. As you've said it yourself, maybe they were surrounded by the Destroyers. But why did Glint send her offspring into that other crystal shard? I think the baby would've been safer if it had stayed with its mother.

A weird thought came to my mind: what if Glint and the Forgotten protecting her died, and the only hope of Tyria is the Dragon Baby ("now", 250 years later)? The chances are low, but who knows?

Some more good points and Ravious your idea/theory is also very good, it made me think about a few things more. Maybe the Forgotten are even older the
n the Dwarfs and maybe even possible know about the dragons and thats is why they chose to protect Glint because Glint is the key to there history and how to defeat them.

[swatkins44]

very interesting idea. i personally never did the protect glint quest so i didnt realize your only protecting her baby. You have a really good point, i never really gave the forgotten much thought and never noticed any of the contradiction of the lore you mentioned. But wouldnt the forgotten be helping the gods in protecting glint/ascension as well? After all, she was also protected by facets of the gods. Maybe the gods just split them into two groups to carry out both tasks. The humans existing before cantha, before the forgotten knew is a good point though

[Ravious]

swatkins44 said:

After all, she was also protected by facets of the gods.

This isn't entirely accurate. She was protected by facets, which kind of use the same power as the gods, but are really ghostly servants... Forgotten tools.

Perhaps they are not manifestations of the gods so much as automatons. Kind of like the god's version of a summoning stone, and they gifted these summoning stones to the Forgotten. That would be one of the only ways that I see where Kerrsh and Grubb's latest statement can marry.

[draxynnic]

Well, to make one correction:

Ravious said:

The human gods arrived in Tyria a little time before the humans came to the world, but not by much.

This is a misquote - the actual line was that the gods are older than humanity but not by much, with no reference to Tyria. If humans aren't native to Tyria, there could be a large gap between the arrival of the gods and the arrival of humanity.

Apart from that, it's an interesting discussion. Regarding the lack of Forgotten in the defence of Glint's child, I have two hypotheses:

First, that Glint dispersed (some of) her children in the hope that even if she was overwhelmed, some would survive. Her primary defense would probably be of her own lair, so each of the dispersed children is relatively lightly defended and relying more on the hope that they aren't found, and the one we defend is one that didn't happen to have any Forgotten defenders. It's even possible that Glint was deliberately keeping her servants seperated - instead of having mixed defenders, some may be assigned to the Forgotten, some to the Brotherhood (and, through them, us), and maybe even some to the Seers.

Second, Vissh Rakissh in the Lair of the Forgotten mentions how the Forgotten have been all but wiped out in teh quest "Forgotten Retribution". It could be that he is referencing the war that led to Abaddon's fall and has been somehow isolated from the others, but it is possibly more likely that Glint sent the Forgotten to contest Varesh's entry into the Desolation, and they lost, thus greatly reducing the number of her Forgotten servants.

[Ravious]

draxynnic said:

Second, Vissh Rakissh in the Lair of the Forgotten mentions how the Forgotten have been all but wiped out in teh quest "Forgotten Retribution". It could be that he is referencing the war that led to Abaddon's fall and has been somehow isolated from the others, but it is possibly more likely that Glint sent the Forgotten to contest Varesh's entry into the Desolation, and they lost, thus greatly reducing the number of her Forgotten servants.

I read it as Forgotten in the Desolation area, most notably around the Lair of the Forgotten... not all Forgotten everywhere including in the Crystal Desert.

But good point, obviously their numbers were greater than prior to the Margonite incursion. Then again is Vissh beholden to the Crystal Desert Forgotten or the faction that protects the Realm of Torment? Or is there a difference?

I mean choosing the simplest explanation we keep Forgotten from Nightfall with other Forgotten from Nightfall...

[swatkins44]

Ravious said:

This isn't entirely accurate. She was protected by facets, which kind of use the same power as the gods, but are really ghostly servants... Forgotten tools.

Perhaps they are not manifestations of the gods so much as automatons. Kind of like the god's version of a summoning stone, and they gifted these summoning stones to the Forgotten. That would be one of the only ways that I see where Kerrsh and Grubb's latest statement can marry.

i stand corrected. your theory is 100% valid :)

[Gmr Leon]

I don't see any glaring holes in this, aside from what Draxynnic pointed out on the misquote, but even that doesn't undermine this completely. However, I do think you're leaning too much towards the general perception of the Forgotten as being a tragic race, as there is something to them that we're not seeing. For example, why is it only Siliss and Sariss Yassith are not with the other Forgotten in Elona Reach, Dunes of Despair, and the Thirsty River? Vissh Rakissh at least has the excuse of distance, and the seeming impression of no others of his race existing any longer. Is it possible that the Forgotten in those three missions were, not unlike the Mursaat, trying to prevent the Flameseeker Prophecies from coming to pass? Turai Ossa was our source of information on them, and called them trials, but it was his people that also made the mistake of thinking them mindless beasts and fighting them, so it is not impossible that he was mistaken yet again.

..Although the fact that Sariss says they're guarding the secrets of Ascension would seem to slightly undermine that..

I would also like to note here that I disagree with Draxynnic's alternate proposed possibility, based on the grounds that none of the cinematics, nor the environments we pass through show Forgotten being killed or have Forgotten corpses littering the area. They did this rather well on the way to Sebelkeh Basilica with the priests of Lyssa, and they could have done this as soon as we entered the Mouth of Torment in the Ruins of Morah mission. Although it is possible, Vissh's dialogue seems to imply strongly enough to the other side of matters, and would go along with the rest of the Forgotten we encounter in the Realm of Torment making no mention whatsoever of Glint.

There is, as well as the aforementioned question, perhaps the largest question of all regarding the benevolence of the Forgotten's reign over Tyria.

Scriptures of Abaddon said:

And so it came to pass that Jadoth, being persecuted by the horrific Forgotten armies, and hounded from his home, did seek refuge among the cooling mists of the Crystal Sea. Untold weeks passed as Jadoth huddled in his sanctuary, with nothing to see save the endless ripples of the boundless ocean.

On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.

Why was Jadoth being persecuted by the Forgotten? Is this merely Margonite propaganda to act as a rallying point for other Margonites to fight? The way it is written would seem to suggest this, given the adjectives and verbs used having more negative connotations about them. However, as with all matters related to Abaddon, I think it would be foolish to so quickly discount it as such.

[Ravious]

Oooh, good catch. I don't know why but I remembered him being hounded by other humans, and I completely forgot it was the Forgotten.

[Mister_Smiley]

On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.

I want to point out something here i just though about, warships, is it possible that we have yet to really meet the race of the Forgotten, if they had ships its possible that the majority of them are on a untouched human content as well.

[Renita of the Darkness]

As to Forgotten, there is a lot unknown about them as a people, but I wouldn't think we've seen the last of our snake friends in Tyria.

[Gmr Leon]

Mister_Smiley said:

I want to point out something here i just though about, warships, is it possible that we have yet to really meet the race of the Forgotten, if they had ships its possible that the majority of them are on a untouched human content as well.

I would say it's an extremely slim possibility. Everyone who has played the game to that point, to the Gate of Madness, will know and be familiar with the Forgotten, so the mentioning of them in the Scriptures of Abaddon would not be a strange, who or what are the Forgotten surprise, it would be a fleshing out of the otherwise mysterious race's role in the past.

[Mister_Smiley]

Gmr Leon said:

I would say it's an extremely slim possibility. Everyone who has played the game to that point, to the Gate of Madness, will know and be familiar with the Forgotten, so the mentioning of them in the Scriptures of Abaddon would not be a strange, who or what are the Forgotten surprise, it would be a fleshing out of the otherwise mysterious race's role in the past.

Ya that is very true, but we all know how Anet likes to pull surprises out, plus they are very mysterious and there past is very unknown.

[draxynnic]

I'm pretty certain Vissh isn't connected to the Realm of Torment Forgotten, since most players will probably reach the Lair of the Forgotten before the portal to Torment is reopened. If Glint didn't dispatch "her" Forgotten to contest the Margonite passage through the Desolation, it seems Vissh has been, ironically enough, forgotten - that or, despite the presence of Forgotten survivors in the northern desert, Vissh still bears a grudge for what happened to his people a thousand years ago (just as Ascalonians may bear a grudge for what happened in the Searing.)

Regarding the lack of corpses - it could be a case of time. When we go to the Mirror of Lyss, we're going there pretty much right after the massacre occurred. The deaths of Glint's Forgotten, however, could have happened early enough before we arrived that the corpses have been consumed by desert scavengers. (Mind you, Glint may not have sent them at all, especially if she felt it was pointless due to the sulphur dunes.)

As for the persecution of Jadoth by the Forgotten - that actually makes sense. The background we have indicates that the Forgotten have been pushed out of most of Tyria by humanity's spread, and the early Margonites were trying to settle one of the few regions left to the Forgotten - it's not surprising that they may have decided to draw a "here and no further" line in the sand.

[pumpkin pie]

I think they have become guardian of the underwater world in GW2.

[Sha Noran]

This is a fabulously well written post by the OP, and it's very fascinating. I, too, was wondering about the Forgotten, as they obviously play some role since mentioned as having connection to the facets, which was a total curve ball I think most of us would agree.

I think we're fools to not wonder what became of Glint's child, and how this may play out in GW2. Also, how did Glint have a kid anyway? Like, uh.... who did she mate with??

It does seem very ironic that so many of the Forgotten seem to end up being, um, forgotten by others, and not just those who never knew of them, but rather the ones who sent them places or gave them their initial instructions. I thought it was very mysterious that they were all over the RoT... clearly they must have some relation to the gods, right? How could anyone else have appointed them Abaddon's jailers?

[Mister_Smiley]

Sha Noran said:

I think we're fools to not wonder what became of Glint's child, and how this may play out in GW2. Also, how did Glint have a kid anyway? Like, uh.... who did she mate with??

I think Glint's child will play some part in GW2 and well find out something unexpected about her. As for who mated with her, who said that she had to have some to mate with in the first place?

The forgotten may have started or served under a God that is no longer around and since there isn't much of there race around most of there history has been long. I can't wait to find more out about them.

[draxynnic]

It wouldn't surprise me if, even without considering Cantha, there are other dragons around of Glint's "type" - they just didn't get involved in the events of Prophecies. Or maybe they did - it has, after all, been theorised that Glint's peers may have lived around Orr, and the majority of Bone Dragons are the result of them being caught in the Cataclysm just like Orr's human population.

This being the case, the eggs in Glint's lair in Prophecies could have resulted from a mating with an Orrian dragon before the Cataclysm. This would imply that dragons take a long time to hatch, but, well, maybe they do take a long time to hatch ;). The baby dragon would then be one of the hatchlings from that clutch six years later.