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Tales of Tyria #21: Build Wars 2


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#1 Bridger

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:35 PM

Important Update: Next week's show will be recorded live at 4pm EDT.  To find out what time that is in your timezone use this handy converter.  The U.S. jumps forward by 1 hour this weekend for Daylight Savings Time so please use the converter to make sure you get the accurate time!

Tales of Tyria #21: Build Wars 2

This show mostly focuses on the newly revealed Traits and Attributes systm.  How flexible is it? Does it pigeonhole people into specific roles again?  We also discuss various links from around the community, incluing a Bridger Rant on players who refuse to learn.  Finally, we discuss the pros and cons of being able to change your "build" in the middle of a PvP match.  Next week we'll talk about changing your build in WvW and PvE.

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Watch | Listen | Download | Show Notes | Subscribe



Episode 21
  • 04:25 - News:  Next Beta in Late March, Various Links
  • 24:00 - Bridger Rant: When Will They Learn?
  • 42:00 - Roundtable: Traits, Attributes, and Build Wars 2

Question of the Week - How much flexibility should players have to change their build in structured PvP?
Send us your answer and comments to [email protected]

#2 Valaria

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:18 PM

I have a question about March 11th.  We're slipping into Daylight Savings Time here in the US on that date.  Do the EU guys spring forward, too?  If not, there might be a different time for them.

#3 Bridger

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:53 PM

EU does not spring forward, and I didn't recognize that issue until after we recorded the show.  The show will be at 4pm Eastern time, which in this case is EDT.  I added the convert link to all the promotions.  I hope it is enough >_<

#4 LastDay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:32 AM

Aww man yeah I've been spending so much time messing around with the skill build thing as well...

Also now I gotta look up that PvP unlock list thingy. :p
And by "now" I mean tomorrow, after I sleep.

#5 bestgw2player

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:46 AM

Adapting to the opposing teams play through being able to swap out weapons and armour in combat should not be replaced by going into a game with a balanced build that allows for adaptation to start with. I feel that games become messy when people are able to completely change there flavour so easily and so readily.

Being able to swap out weapons on death weakens team synergy and strategy, it removes the ability to make mental notes on the fly so as to create interesting/creative strategy to outplay an opponent.

I also believe that this will cause really weird gameplay, on every death a new build will be revised and it is rather likely that it will be a direct counter to that of your opponents. Players will be stuck in an infinite loop of counter builds, which results in a system where builds are more important than player skill, which doesnt really lead to anything interesting - atleast from my perspective.

#6 Valaria

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:04 AM

Bridger said:

EU does not spring forward, and I didn't recognize that issue until after we recorded the show.  The show will be at 4pm Eastern time, which in this case is EDT.  I added the convert link to all the promotions.  I hope it is enough >_<

Gotta love Daylight Savings Time!  :D

#7 Doctor Tentacle

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:45 AM

bestgw2player said:

Being able to swap out weapons on death weakens team synergy and strategy, it removes the ability to make mental notes on the fly so as to create interesting/creative strategy to outplay an opponent.

I also believe that this will cause really weird gameplay, on every death a new build will be revised and it is rather likely that it will be a direct counter to that of your opponents. Players will be stuck in an infinite loop of counter builds, which results in a system where builds are more important than player skill, which doesnt really lead to anything interesting - atleast from my perspective.

Yes, this is pretty much how I feel about it. This would de-emphasize tactical decision-making in favour of build decisions during a match. Why come up with a better plan when you can blame your build?

Let's not even get into the potential RPS silliness this could lead to.

I'd also like to point out that with some of the examples Bridger used (LoL and Starcraft, I have no real experience with FPS games) these in-game adaptations you make aren't instant but very very gradual. Switching unit comp in SC has prerequisite tech and production facilities, as well as unit building time. In LoL major items require a lot of farming time. Build switching in GW2 would happen near instantly; you can't make a direct comparison.

Bridger says that he doesn't want to go into a game that's already imbalanced from the start due to build decisions. I can understand why he would feel that way, it is very frustrating to be disadvantage due to something you have no control over. IHowever, I believe that in GW2 any build disadvantage (within reason; some builds are total trash) can be overcome with superior tactics and teamwork. There's so much strategic depth involved with those 5v5 maps that I can't imagine builds being as big of a factor as in GW1. Even if, all else being equal, you lost purely due to a weakness in your build (unlikely) - you'll still get other chances to make up for it in a real tournament, where it's mostly best of X.

tl;dr: Bridger makes some valid points but introducing this causes more problems than it fixes

#8 Nabbis

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:45 PM

A note to the hosts:
You can't change anything in pvp constructed match only change your weapons which you have decided before the match.
You are locked to the build you did before the match.

In wvw and pve you can change anything but the trait lines if you are not in combat.
There might be some more restrictions on wvw but these are the things anet has said themselfs in the last blogposts considering pvp.

#9 Preek

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:03 PM

in EU (or at least in Germany) we jump 1h forward too, at the 25th of march.

NVM, will watch the show this evening, loved everyone I saw yet and I'm so happy to hear that I understood everything you talked about. Ever. ;D

#10 Malchior Devenholm

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

Nabbis said:

A note to the hosts:
You can't change anything in pvp constructed match only change your weapons which you have decided before the match.
You are locked to the build you did before the match.

In wvw and pve you can change anything but the trait lines if you are not in combat.
There might be some more restrictions on wvw but these are the things anet has said themselfs in the last blogposts considering pvp.

I believe we have proof from dev footage that you can indeed swap your utility skills in Structured PvP, provided you are out of combat.  It was an older build and may not be the case anymore.

This is rare, because the press NEVER changed their utility skills mid-match (probably because they didn't know).

#11 LastDay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:18 PM

At least in some builds little arrows appear above the skills when you can switch them.
If you see them appear in a video of a PvP match that'd probably be your answer there. :)

I noticed it on some video myself, if I remember right...
I don't think it's been written anywhere where I would have read about it.

#12 Nabbis

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 07:06 PM

Malchior Devenholm said:

I believe we have proof from dev footage that you can indeed swap your utility skills in Structured PvP, provided you are out of combat.  It was an older build and may not be the case anymore.

This is rare, because the press NEVER changed their utility skills mid-match (probably because they didn't know).

Yeah I have fuzzy image of that. but at least the videos what I have watched from this beta build none of the beta testers changed their build.

And I am pretty sure that I have readed some where that the only place you could change your build in structured pvp was in the lobby area.
or I have misread something again that might be the right answer too.

But we will know this soon enough when the next beta phase starts or some of us will I hope.

#13 Flying Dutchman

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:50 PM

Can anyone post the link to that char builder again? I can't find it anymore.

#14 Bridger

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:19 PM

Doctor Tentacle said:


tl;dr: Bridger makes some valid points but introducing this causes more problems than it fixes

For the record, my final stance is that I think switching out heal/utility/elite skills is probably enough to offset any major balance issues due to build.  Ever class has critical skills in their utility slots.  Pretty much every class has access to some interrupt, and some stun-breaking ability in their utility slot.  Given that, I can't imagine a scenario where builds would matter as much as they did in GW1.

----------

Nabbis said:

A note to the hosts:
You can't change anything in pvp constructed match only change your weapons which you have decided before the match.
You are locked to the build you did before the match.

In wvw and pve you can change anything but the trait lines if you are not in combat.
There might be some more restrictions on wvw but these are the things anet has said themselfs in the last blogposts considering pvp.

Watch this video.  Notice that when he is out of combat, you can see little arrows above the heal/utility/elite skills.

----------

Flying Dutchman said:

Can anyone post the link to that char builder again? I can't find it anymore.

http://gw2.luna-atra...s_tool/?lang=en

Edited by Bridger, 06 March 2012 - 11:23 PM.


#15 asbasb

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 12:14 AM

Bridger said:

Notice that when he is out of combat, you can see little arrows above the heal/utility/elite skills.

Switching utilities was possible until at least Gamescom 2011. Dunno if there is any evidence in support of them having changed this since.

#16 Doctor Tentacle

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:59 AM

Bridger said:

For the record, my final stance is that I think switching out heal/utility/elite skills is probably enough to offset any major balance issues due to build.

It's even more of a balance issue if you are going to allow someone to change utilities but not weapons, or vice versa. Different classes rely on their utilities to differing degrees. Specifically, an engineer changing their kits will be far more versatile than any other class, if utility swapping was allowed. Warriors would be more versatile if only weapon swapping was allowed - as they have the greatest variety in possible weapon combinations.

Bridger said:

Ever class has critical skills in their utility slots.  Pretty much every class has access to some interrupt, and some stun-breaking ability in their utility slot.

That's the problem. If your team build makes use of a lot of stuns, and your opponent realizes that, they can just swap out all their utilities to ones that break or prevent stun. This makes your team ineffective, which in turn forces YOU to change your own utilities and elites in response, and so on, leading to endless RPS.

#17 Kalaniel

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:42 PM

Well, let's say the team is based on stuns. Will one of them be able to stun-lock you? If so, how many of the other team is nescessary to stun-lock you? Two? All five?

As far as I'm aware, there's no way of a single player to stun you over and over again, and I belive you would need at least 3. If 3 are occupied stunlocking you, you're holding 3 enemies while your other 4 team members are dominating the map, killing the other 2 enemies. Besides, dodging out of the way would waste one of their stun cooldowns.

The point is, depending on how long the cooldowns are, and what gimmicks are available (such as stun-locking), it may be more than okay to have everyone locked on everything.

If you're a guardian and most of your abilities are based around negating ranged damage, you can still dish out enough damage and/or support to be viable in battle. Which is not something usual on MMOs.

However, only seeing the big picture we would be able to tell for certain what would be best.

#18 Wyrd One

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

I think your build will be important, but not as major a factor as it has been in previous MMOs... where your gear, build, etc... determined who won more so than the player's skill.

I couldn't find the exact quote, but ANet has stated the build itself that you choose will be less important than learning how to be effective with that chosen build.

I don't think having a specific major trait will win or lose a battle for you.  You could build your warrior up to do as much knockdown and stun as possible, take every trait possible to maximize that, but if I'm really good at dodging and I simply dodge out of the way of your best stuns then I win.

#19 Bridger

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 04:17 AM

[quote name='Doctor Tentacle']It's even more of a balance issue if you are going to allow someone to change utilities but not weapons, or vice versa. Different classes rely on their utilities to differing degrees. Specifically, an engineer changing their kits will be far more versatile than any other class, if utility swapping was allowed. Warriors would be more versatile if only weapon swapping was allowed - as they have the greatest variety in possible weapon combinations.[quote]

I don't think this is strictly true.  Engineers are the only example I can think of which really rely on their utilities more than other classes.  However, they are also the only class I can think of that have very specific utilities.  Turrets are only really great for fighting in a single area.  If you ever have to chase/fight on the move turrets become almost useless.  So while engineers do have more reliance on their utilities to some degree, they also have the most specialized utilities, meaning that they would need to switch out utilities more often anyway in order to become viable in structured matches.

[quote]That's the problem. If your team build makes use of a lot of stuns, and your opponent realizes that, they can just swap out all their utilities to ones that break or prevent stun. This makes your team ineffective, which in turn forces YOU to change your own utilities and elites in response, and so on, leading to endless RPS.[/QUOTE]

A single skill that removes you from stun once every 15-20 seconds (not sure what the actual CD is) will not make your build ineffective.  It will make it "less" effective, but certainly not ineffective.  I think you are over-estimating how hard the counters in this game will be.

#20 Abed092

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:47 AM

Thanks for this GREAT episode guys ^^ It's so good to see Aku after such a long time :x However, Bridger there was some issues with the sound version it lags* quite often at the first 3-10 minutes and when u start ranting and at minute 55 or so :<

*lag as in voice get interrupted/cut for 0.5-1.0 sec.

As for question of the week: IMO, players shouldn't be able to change armor/traits at the fly. You should be able to change ur healing/utility/elite skills when ur out of combat but as for traits u should only be able to change them before u join a game in Structured PvP or WvW else it'd be quite a mess like Freelancer said the situation will be the same much like it was in WoW before they disabled it. And I'm no sure about armor since Anet said armor won't be a huge factor because stats are capped and what not. But that's just my opinion we'll have to wait and see after all :P

And Bridger thank you so much for making the show early this Sunday :) I'll be there for sure :3 cheers !