[Gmr Leon]

As information has been released throughout the course of the Guild Wars series, along with the buildup to Guild Wars 2, we have continually seen that the history is not quite as accurate as it may have seemed. Likewise, we have seen that the Gods aren’t precisely what they were made out to be by the old tales. This being the case, I have an alternate theory, that may not hold any water whatsoever, but could provide us with an entirely new view of the formation of Tyria and its development.

The Old Races.

In Tyria, we have several native races without any definite origin, and no origin myth that we are currently aware of due to any number of reasons, most of which relate to hostility between humanity and that race although there are exceptions to this (e.g. Asura). These races are as follows, and if I overlook one, feel free to point it out:

• Charr.
  
• Asura.
  
• Centaurs.
  
• Tengu.
  
• Naga.
  
• Wardens.
  
• Dredge.
  
• Djinn.
  
• Norn.
  
• Grawl.

We have only one amongst these races that has some sort of origin myth, which we likely only know of due to the overall lack of hostility for many centuries, and this is the Dwarven race, as many of you may have guessed. This may be disputed, with the case of the Charr, as there is mention of their possessing tales of Melandru creating the world, but this is not related to their actual origin as a race. Humanity, a race unclear to be native to Tyria or not, albeit suggested, do not even attribute their origin as being through the Gods’ actions. The only race to claim divine involvement in their creation is the Dwarves, through the line in the Eye of the North manuscripts

The rest of these races, due to hostility in many cases, have not revealed anything of their culture or beliefs regarding their origin, or if they have a well documented record so that there is no need for belief, they know where they came from. The only race that may have this, surprisingly, I think, is the Charr, due to their lengthy oral history that goes back far enough to have mention of Melandru. However, other potential races would be the Asura, Centaurs, Tengu, and the Djinn, if you ask me. I do not include the Naga, due to a lack of information regarding them, the Wardens, due to their unique nature and connection to the natural world which may make such matters seem meaningless to them, the Dredge, due to their seemingly consistent enslavement until the events of Guild Wars 2, and the Norn and Grawl due to the former’s potential lack of concern and the latter due to lack of information and any apparent language.

The Asura seem as though they would be interested in doing so, the Centaurs already have an existing interest in their ancestors and thus the past, meaning they may be aware of their origin. The Tengu, it is more difficult to say, but as far as I am aware they have no real tales of a great being creating them, which may simply suggest a difference in social structures or in knowledge of their origin, which is sort of hinted at by Talon Silverwing*. The Djinn may seem an odd choice at first glance, but consider their connection to the world, the elements, and it makes sense that their memory would be one with Tyria, thus knowledge of their origin would exist, whether or not this is the case is currently improvable, but it would not entirely surprise me to discover this to be.

*

Talon Silverwing said:

My people tell tales of the day when we will be free, when our lands will be revealed by a heavenly star and rise. When that day comes, human, only then will our races live in peace.

Due to lack of information, there is not a strong case here for the races that explained their origin through deities. Of the Old Races, we have only one that does so, which could indicate a variety of possibilities:

• The Great Dwarf actually created all the races of Tyria, but did not create Tyria itself.
  
• The Great Dwarf did both, creating the races of Tyria and Tyria itself.
  
• The Great Dwarf was the guardian deity of Tyria, upon the first awakening of the Elder Dragons; he fought the Great Destroyer (Primordus?), defeating it and preventing the subsequent awakening of the others. Realizing that it would eventually reawaken, he creates the Dwarven race as a safety measure, perhaps during a weakened state in which he died soon after, imbuing what little energy he had left in the Hammer of the Great Dwarf.
  
• The Great Dwarf was the last of the original Old Races or a group of the Old Races, and did similar to the above, but was never a deity, thus creating the Dwarven race as a safety measure because he knew he would die of old means. If you think this doesn’t comply with the definition of deity, then keep in mind that the human Gods never created a single race that we’re aware of. (Margonites are transformed/corrupted humans, not creations. Glint is a single creature, not a race.)

These are, by no means, all of the possibilities, but several of the first that come to mind from the little information we do have in relation to the Old Races.

The New Races.

These are the races that arrived with the Gods arrival or shortly thereafter and, in the case of both, may be native to Tyria, I will count the Margonites as a separate race here, but for no other reason than their anatomical and physiological differences in comparison to humans.

• The Forgotten.
  
• Humanity.
  
• The Margonites.

[Same as the above,] If you think I have overlooked any, please inform me.

Disclaimers aside, these races all began to appear when the Gods came into the picture. The Forgotten were the first race to come into the picture along with them, as they guided the other races around while the Gods “created” the world around them. Other data, such as the very existence of the Old Races contradicts this account, but it remains unclear what exactly the Gods were doing during this period of “creation”. Many suspect it to be terraformation, or in other words, simply the reshaping of the land.

Yet this still doesn’t precisely fit together. Why would the Gods need to employ another race to shepherd the others around? Why does humanity appear to come so shortly after they do? Why do the Gods not punish humanity when they break the balance created by the Forgotten? This is where I will provide the two possibilities I see existing at this point based on the evidence we have regarding the era of the New Races, but do note, these possibilities contradict one another intentionally.

Also, a warning, this is long, this may appear bloated, and the second part confusing, with this being the case, if you haven’t the time, I’ve cut both sections down into point form at the bottom under In Summation, capturing the overall point of each as briefly as possible. As with anything though, to get the full idea, I advise reading over each section in full.

Forgotten Benevolence.

I have before asked the question of why the Forgotten were hunting down Jadoth as described in the Scriptures of Abaddon, and, although I do not think I have mentioned it before, I also questioned why the Forgotten would have armies and warships. There has been one mention of the Forgotten’s reign over their territory as an empire, in the description of the Lair of the Forgotten:

Lair of the Forgotten said:

Time has not been kind to this last bastion of a once-great empire. The erosion caused by the outward creep of the Realm of Torment has eaten away at the very foundations of this forgotten citadel, dropping much of it into a vast sinkhole. It is said the lone living witness to the Margonite assault on the Gates of Heaven and Abaddon's defeat at the hands of the Five Gods still resides here, all but abandoned to the mists of time.

The Manuscripts suggest to us that the Forgotten are not native to the land, in fact, they directly state it. However, in these same lines, they state that they were brought to Tyria for a purpose that current evidence directly contradicts. The current idea, that the Gods merely reshaped the world rather than creating it, would seem to not question that data, as races would need to be guided as mountain ranges were being formed or land shifted about. Yet, I don’t think so; I don’t see why, if we’re questioning the very creation of the planet, we would not question the reasons that brought the Forgotten to Tyria, if the original cause of those reasons seems untrue.

That being the case, I think it’s partly true, as is the case with many lies or the general passage of information during earlier years. I do think that the Forgotten held a benevolent empire, teaching the other races that were willing to learn and backing down from those that weren’t, such as the case with the Charr and their backing down from that region. But where does the shepherding part of the tale come into play? I think that the Gods may have been amongst the first humans to arrive on Tyria, and to an extent, I do think they reshaped the world, albeit perhaps not in the way we would think. (Gently and softly, for example.)

During this, the Forgotten Empire would have been torn apart by the restructuring of the continent, and they, in their benevolence, would move those races around which had accepted them, to prevent their extinction. Somewhen during this tumultuous time, humanity would appear, and taking advantage of the Forgotten’s stretched resources, would begin to divide up parts of their empire for their own. At the end of it all, for their own preservation, they would give up these regions to humanity, so when they saw Jadoth, and perhaps other Margonites (maybe Jadoth was a leader amongst them?) moving into their territory around the Crystal Sea, they decided they had had enough. They tried kindness and had their territory taken from them because of it.

I think it was also at this point that they had to compromise with the very beings that had caused the destruction of their empire, the Gods. When Abaddon struck down the Forgotten in the event mentioned in the Scriptures of Abaddon, this must have been a turning point. Sure, the Gods had shifted the land and weakened their empire, but never had they specifically backed humanity, the true thieves of their empire, in the way seen in the Scriptures of Abaddon in an act clearly targeted at them. Humanity cried for an end to the wars caused by the gift of magic, the Forgotten demanded retribution for the persecution of their race (which may have gone further after this event, in occurrences similar to the slaughter mentioned by Vissh Rakissh in the Lair of the Forgotten).

The Gods had to decide, and they appealed to both parties. They created the Bloodstones in the tale we’re all familiar with, for the sake of humanity, and struck down Abaddon for the sake of the Forgotten. This explains two peculiarities in the story, one of which regarding the harshness of Abaddon’s punishment for an act that appeared to be detrimental only to humanity, and the other in the willingness of the Forgotten to act as his, and the Margonites, jailers. Of course, humanity wouldn’t want to see it this way, they would arrive on Tyria and see these “serpents” as having had to appear from somewhere else with a preexisting culture, as after all, how could they have empires where humanity was still only fighting amongst themselves in tribes? Similarly, they would see the Gods shaping the world, and the benevolence of the Forgotten in shepherding other creatures and think that the latter were working for the Gods, for who would think they would be doing so and not fighting beings that were tearing apart their empire?

Where humanity cannot explain matters, due to ignorance, it will create explanations from what it sees occurring, so I see this as being one of those possible misconceptions of humanity.

Forgotten Tyranny.

On a complete turn from the above, this idea basically takes what we know of the Forgotten and leaves it untouched. They were brought by the Gods to shepherd the other races and so on and so forth. However, the part where this differs is that I think the Gods may have shifted the land about so that the Forgotten could establish their empire over Tyria and the other races, with the main purpose being to teach the other races of the Gods and to, essentially, indoctrinate them. This would certainly explain the Charr’s views of the Gods, the conflict with the Forgotten in the first place, and why they did at least have tales of Melandru’s creation of the world (seized scrolls from a destroyed or abandoned Forgotten war camp, possibly). Humanity would be their main race, though, despite their lack of presence on the Tyrian continent, which may be because they had been prepared by the Gods for some time now, and Tyria itself was being prepared specifically for humanity, for what reasons, it is unclear.

An old idea was that the Gods’ power was derived from the amount of worshipers, and this may be why they did it, but it could also be argued that it was for similar reasons to the Great Dwarf’s creation of the Dwarven race, to combat the Elder Dragons when they awakened. The why is a mystery, which none of the existing evidence even begins to hint at an answer or explanation to, as far as I know.

Whatever the case may be, if it was in fact to combat the Elder Dragons, I think this sets Abaddon up as a potentially benevolent figure, in comparison to other accounts. Realizing that humanity (and the other races) would be facing the Elder Dragons at some point; he tries to give them more magic than was intended by the other Gods. Although it is said humanity broke the balance the Forgotten had established, what if they simply let go of the reins at this time? In letting the situation fall apart into disaster, they make it appear as though Abaddon is the evil figure here, and Abaddon, being the God of Secrets, knew this and gave Jadoth this knowledge as well, to tell the Gods. After all, he would only seem more suspicious if he tried to defend himself, not to mention he would be lying, undermining the validity of his claims, but a simple mortal, a human, no less, why, they would believe one of them. Especially since humanity was their chosen race, but he did not expect the Forgotten’s persecution of Jadoth, and thus enraged, struck down their warships and granted Jadoth even more power.

What happened next is incredibly difficult to say, given the chaotic nature of that time, but I suspect the Forgotten cleverly used Abaddon’s idea against him, by taking King Doric to the Gods to plea for help. This would also help explain how in Dhuum’s many names Doric somehow managed to get to Arah to do so. Whatever the case, the course of events implies that Jadoth didn’t get to the Gods in time, and possibly could not, as the assault on the Gates of Heaven may be referring to the Margonites, led by Jadoth, trying to break into the city of Arah to tell the Gods of the Forgotten’s misdeeds.

Now, you may ask here, as I have not elaborated, why the Forgotten would just let go of the control on the situation and point out that this contradicts the suggestion by the formation of the human kingdoms and dynasties in Tyria and Elona, respectively, that they had already lost control, but note that the Forgotten did not leave the world of men until, strangely enough, 174 years after they would have lost control. I think this was a last ditch attempt by the Forgotten, since they could see that humanity was clearly going to become the dominant race around Tyria through the Gods’ support, much like their empire had been established, to pit the Gods against one another, and restore their falling empire in the process. What they may not have foreseen was the Gods’ solution to Doric’s pleas and the strength of Abaddon setting them up for failure. As in the first, this meant the preservation of humanity, which they may have hoped would destroy each other with the magic given by Abaddon, and in the second, well; I think the Scriptures of Abaddon and their slaughter more or less paint that picture quite well.

On the other hand, it’s possible that the Gods simply ordered the Forgotten to lose control or that it occurred just as has been suggested by the events in the Manuscripts. The difference being that they may have ordered the persecution of Jadoth and the Margonites after their actions at their temples, thus the Forgotten were simply following orders, or the Forgotten may have taken matters into their own hands, finding it disrespectful towards the Gods and what they were brought there to do, indoctrinate them to worship all the Gods equally, and as such hunted them down. In the latter case, it was tyranny on the part of the Forgotten, worship all the Gods equally by our teachings or be faced with death.

If that’s what was occurring, it would explain why they were hunting Jadoth down and why Abaddon overreacted, he knew the Forgotten were abusing their power and being tyrants, in essence leading up to the events already outlined above. (Using Jadoth to try and inform the Gods, doesn’t get there in time, Forgotten bring King Doric into the picture, Abaddon is made to look like the bad guy.) This reaction would also suggest that the Gods had not intended for death to be the punishment for not following the teachings of the Forgotten precisely, despite the orders from them for the Forgotten to teach and indoctrinate humanity (as well as any other races that would be accepting of it without brute force).

In summation:

Forgotten Benevolence.

• Forgotten were native to Tyria, it’s a human misconception that the Gods brought them there, their later cooperation with them was part of a compromise.

Forgotten Tyranny.

• Forgotten were brought to Tyria by the Gods, established an empire with their assistance to indoctrinate any races that were willing to listen to believe in and worship the Gods.
  
  
• Abaddon gives the races of Tyria more magic than intended, Forgotten intentionally lose control of the situation to try and pit the Gods against each other and lead to the demise of humanity so they may assume independent control of their empire over Tyria.
  
  
• The Forgotten persecute the Margonites for their overzealous worship of Abaddon with the intent to punish through death. This was not what the Gods intended, and Abaddon, seeing this, strikes the Forgotten warships down, which incites the Forgotten to release control of the situation creating mass wars across Tyria bringing humanity to the brink of extinction and from there escorting King Doric to plea to the Gods before Abaddon can get Jadoth to the Gods to reveal the truth.

As an after note, perhaps I should just ignore how long this appears as I'm writing in Microsoft Word..It had the unedited version of this at six pages. What do you all think?

Edited by Gmr Leon, 21 March 2010 - 04:28 AM.

[Corpsesarefun]

My only nitpick is that margonites were human before jadoth called to abaddon for help out on the crystal sea, other than that this is a sound theory and compilation of what we know :)

[Thalador]

Well done, Leon! This work of yours allows us to take a new glance at the Forgotten.

I must admit, the Forgotten Tyranny was interesting. The thought that the Forgotten tried to indoctrinate the old and new races into the worshipping of the gods could explain a lot of things. Although, I think that the first contact with the Charr was a success, but after they began preaching about the creation of the world and telling the other "lies" the Charr started to ask questions. And because those questions could have undermined the credibility of both the gods and the serpents they accused those Charr of blasphemy. Which might have led to a revolt and then came the war. Or perhaps the Charr wanted to be free and not to worship beings with too much power. Then the Forgotten tried to enslave and force their ideology on them (much like the Catholic church did to the mesoamerican civilizations and to the Incas).

The idea that Jadoth and the other Margonite stormed Arah (and the very gates of Arah were called Gates of Heaven, which led to the common misconception that it's a portal to another realm/world - maybe to Dwayna's) is by all means fascinating. I never thought of this possibility but it makes more sense than trying to break into another realm. Though I must ask: Were Abaddon and his forces pushed back to the Mouth of Torment or what else happened? The in-game description of that outpost says the following:

The In-game Description of Mouth of Torment said:

It was here that Abaddon and his Margonites challenged the power of the Five True Gods, and here that the other gods smote the God of Secrets down, imprisoning him and his following in a Realm of Torment. This once beautiful land is now a crater littered with the trappings of a god. And above it the Mouth of Torment hangs, a weakness in the world, a globe of pure evil, beckoning all to their doom.

The other thing that bugs me is in Forgotten Benevolence. Why didn't the Forgotten start restoring their fallen empire after Exodus? Why did they go to the Realm of Torment to be slaves (serve as jailors) of the Five Gods and let themselves to be slaughtered? Unless that compromise was "unbreakable" and they had no other choice but to do the gods' bidding or face death.

I can't think of any other questionable parts. Maybe I will read it again. These are indeed well-compiled theories, but a little bit long.

Again: Nice work, Leon! :)

[draxynnic]

One possibility that strikes me that allows the Forgotten to be generally benevolent while still being brought by the gods:

The Forgotten were part of a multi-step strategy. While humanity, and possibly other races, were intended to inherit, before the work of the gods started the condition of the world was such that it was initially best-suited to the Forgotten among the races the gods sponsored. The Forgotten helped the gods in reshaping the world, but they knew that most of the world was intended to be given to others.

According to the Manuscripts, humanity "upset the balance" intended by the gods, but was apparently forgiven for doing so by the gods. It's possible that this process started as a deliberate withdrawal by the Forgotten to allow other races to take their assigned places - but then humanity got greedy and claimed more than they were assigned, and misused what they had. By the time the Forgotten realised what had happened, they'd alread withdrawn - basically, instead of withdrawing after humanity had taken control like the Manuscripts suggest, they were already gone, and it was left to the gods to salvage what remained of a bad situation.

However, while the Forgotten knew they weren't intended to be the long-term inheritors of the world, there was at least one area that was assigned to them, being the Crystal Sea and its shores (now the Crystal Desert, and mistakenly referred to as such in the Manuscripts). While they weren't going to fight over the rest of the world, however, this was territory that had been assigned to them, and when Margonites moved in, they weren't going to give up without a fight.

And then we had the events that we do know, including those outlined in the Scriptures of Abaddon. That particular event may be part of why Abaddon's punishment proved to be so harsh - among his crimes was breaking the covenant between the Forgotten and the gods by showing his favour to invaders in the land that the Forgotten had been assigned.

[Gmr Leon]

Draxynnic said:

However, while the Forgotten knew they weren't intended to be the long-term inheritors of the world, there was at least one area that was assigned to them, being the Crystal Sea and its shores (now the Crystal Desert, and mistakenly referred to as such in the Manuscripts). While they weren't going to fight over the rest of the world, however, this was territory that had been assigned to them, and when Margonites moved in, they weren't going to give up without a fight.

And then we had the events that we do know, including those outlined in the Scriptures of Abaddon. That particular event may be part of why Abaddon's punishment proved to be so harsh - among his crimes was breaking the covenant between the Forgotten and the gods by showing his favour to invaders in the land that the Forgotten had been assigned.

Aside from the slight differences here, this is more or less the idea that I had in mind, especially regarding the first paragraph, while the second paragraph somewhat goes together with my idea of the Gods and the Forgotten's relationship. The major difference in the second part is that Abaddon's punishment came as a result of the newly made compromise between the Forgotten and the Gods, rather than a preexisting covenant. However, I'd have to agree that your alternative seems just as viable as mine above.

The only hole that I can see in the idea is the curious date of the Forgotten's leave of the world of men at 174 AE. That would suggest to me at least some small groups remained around or within human civilization, until then they just decided they couldn't stand it.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

The thought that the Forgotten tried to indoctrinate the old and new races into the worshipping of the gods could explain a lot of things. Although, I think that the first contact with the Charr was a success, but after they began preaching about the creation of the world and telling the other "lies" the Charr started to ask questions. And because those questions could have undermined the credibility of both the gods and the serpents they accused those Charr of blasphemy. Which might have led to a revolt and then came the war. Or perhaps the Charr wanted to be free and not to worship beings with too much power. Then the Forgotten tried to enslave and force their ideology on them (much like the Catholic church did to the mesoamerican civilizations and to the Incas).

It may have been better that I left that cut-out section in, given this point. Initially, I gave an overview of both the Old and the New Races, with the former discussing the issue of origin and the races that may actually have a firm record of their origin, and as such being reluctant, or in the case of the Charr, hostile, to the indoctrination efforts of the Forgotten. I thought I had completely diverged from that section after finishing writing...I may have to put it back.

Thalador Doomspeaker said:

The idea that Jadoth and the other Margonite stormed Arah (and the very gates of Arah were called Gates of Heaven, which led to the common misconception that it's a portal to another realm/world - maybe to Dwayna's) is by all means fascinating. I never thought of this possibility but it makes more sense than trying to break into another realm. Though I must ask: Were Abaddon and his forces pushed back to the Mouth of Torment or what else happened?

That's something I completely overlooked in that section. My mind was busy connecting all the dots and covering any possible glaring holes in this that it got a bit tangled towards the end, which might be obvious, so I glanced over that but put it aside as mainly irrelevant to what I'm discussing, I think.

Nevertheless, what you propose wouldn't surprise me as being what occurred, and would also help to explain the devastation across the Crystal Sea to the Desolation, as their fight was constantly being pushed back to where they had come from or the the coast of the Crystal Sea. I could definitely see the battle between the Forgotten and the Margonites mainly being naval, until they hit the coast and put up a final stand, where even Abaddon and the other Gods decided to come into the picture.

Edit: Perhaps the funniest part of this entire thread is that this was originally meant to be another look at the Gods as conspirators against Abaddon sort of thread..Then my "Forgotten" thoughts clambered from the mental depths to finally be seen. Also, I've restored the removed section, which contains a somewhat different perspective, mainly, on the Great Dwarf.

Edited by Gmr Leon, 20 March 2010 - 02:48 PM.

[pumpkin pie]

Hylek << you forgot them! how could you :)

[draxynnic]

Gmr Leon said:

Aside from the slight differences here, this is more or less the idea that I had in mind, especially regarding the first paragraph, while the second paragraph somewhat goes together with my idea of the Gods and the Forgotten's relationship. The major difference in the second part is that Abaddon's punishment came as a result of the newly made compromise between the Forgotten and the Gods, rather than a preexisting covenant. However, I'd have to agree that your alternative seems just as viable as mine above.

The only hole that I can see in the idea is the curious date of the Forgotten's leave of the world of men at 174 AE. That would suggest to me at least some small groups remained around or within human civilization, until then they just decided they couldn't stand it.

Possible.

Alternatively, however, the Forgotten may have been working to impress on humanity what responsibilities there were to having custodianship of the land. While there are exceptions, humanity as a group (or at least as mediated by Rangers) does seem to be more ecologically conscious than I would normally expect from the middle ages (worrying about preserving endangered species, for instance), and certainly more than the Asura and Charr. The Forgotten may have essentially spent that time impressing on humanity "okay, you can have that land, but here's what you need to do to maintain it..."

Once they were satisfied, they left.

[Operative 14]

Excellent thesis. :D I'd lean more towards agreeing with the benevolent idea.

The Forgotten never really struck me as anything more than teachers set forth by the gods to tame the lands before the other, more permanent races moved in. In all of Tyria, in all the quests and missions that I can remember at least, the Forgotten don't seem to treat humans with any malice (other than the 'tests' in the Crystal Desert) or overt dislike that you'd expect from a fallen empire facing their conquerors. And from a first hand perspective of those experiences no less, unless I read it wrong I thought the forgotten were extremely long lived.

Besides which, it seems odd that they would help humanity to prosper as opposed to keeping them in check. For instance, the Crystal Desert attribute quests are a major boon to the player, I don't see why they would freely hand out that knowledge to a race that they were ostensibly trying to curtail for their own devices in the Tyranny idea. It seems more like they are keeping up with their old role as teachers to the younger races. Not to mention they fulfill their duties as kind of the 'go-to' servants for the gods; if the gods need any sort of work done, like guarding Glint or Abbadon, or teaching the races and so on, they seem to do so with more zeal than I'd expect considering they don't seem to have received anything in return.

I think empire has a connotation here that wasn't *quite* intended, I think it means more a centralized, civilized power base as opposed to a militaristic iron-fist type of thing.

Can someone post a link to the information that links the Forgotten to being a native race to Tyria, and not a transplant by the gods?

[draxynnic]

There is none, hence my counter-proposal (which allowed the Forgotten to be benevolent and introduced to Tyria by the gods, but still gives them a reason to be hostile to Jadoth and the other Margonites).

However, part of GmrLeon's logic is based on the observation that plenty of other things in the Prophecies Manuscripts have been shown to be...shall we say, not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. This casts some doubt on everything in the Manuscripts pre-Exodus, especially something that happened so long before the Exodus.