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ArenaNet: Building Community


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#121 Milennin

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:06 PM

Nice that we get official forums. I'll still be visiting here too, though.

#122 Specialz

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:06 PM

Craywulf said:

It's clear, but I don't see you acknowledging the vast difficulty of creating a forum that doesn't have heavy population of whiners and trolls. Saying it's easy isn't exactly holding much weight.

Unless you have some trick up your sleeves to stow the pettiness that plague official MMO forums.  I really can't take you too seriously. I mean I would LOVE for GW2 forums to really succeed, and they certainly deserve so, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

Doesn't guru already have some of those already;).

I don't understand if Guru can do it why can't Arenanet do it? What's to stop Arenanet from doing what Curse does with guru?

#123 Lumi

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:07 PM

Official forums? Hell yes.

No offense to Guru of course..

Edited by Lumi, 15 March 2012 - 07:09 PM.


#124 Hyper Hypno Hustler

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:07 PM

Martin Kerstein said:

There is no rule that you have to tolerate obnoxious behaviour.

I hope you will consider any potential blind and excessive praise obnoxious, not just criticism based on ignorance.

#125 Lihinel

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:07 PM

Hope they know these guys and have gotten rid of titles, signitures and big avatars.

#126 Palmtree

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:08 PM

Woohoo! I made a post yesterday hoping that we'd get official forums :D

This is great. A place where we can actually give valid feedback and have an even bigger community! Really, really excited.

#127 Graveborn

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:08 PM

Senatic said:

Yea, just don't become one of those blizzard/bioware forums where if anyone says anything you don't agree with or negative about your company you start banning people.

That kind of stuff makes me sick to my stomach. And it has been going on a bit here on guru as well, mods don't always stay entirely objective.

The problem in lots of cases is not the opinion, but how it is expressed.  I am not saying that what you describe never happens, but in the cases I have seen, negative opinions are only removed when they are in a post that breaks basic rules of civility.

I happen to like seeing good discussions and differing opinions hashed out in an "argument", but once something like personal attacks, bad language, etc enter into it, the discussion is over anyway.

We will see what ArenaNet does with their forums, but I'd be willing to bet right now that they won't have a problem with posts that disagree with them or that point out what we think are problems with the game, so long as those posts are also written with civility and respect.

We are a passionate bunch when it comes to our games.  That doesn't mean we have to be rude and crude on the forums.  :)

#128 dutch_gamer

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:09 PM

Senatic said:

Yea, just don't become one of those blizzard/bioware forums where if anyone says anything you don't agree with or negative about your company you start banning people.

That kind of stuff makes me sick to my stomach. And it has been going on a bit here on guru as well, mods don't always stay entirely objective.

I couldn't disagree more. People always claim that they got banned because they were negative about something but they always forget to add they were not remotely constructive about it. I expect ArenaNet to get the exact same flak because some people don't take no for an answer and will demand "answers" and if they don't get their way they revolt.

Edit:

If the companies you mentioned truly banned all people who are negative I wouldn't be seeing non-closed, negative but constructive feedback in the developer trackers.

#129 Chalky

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

Martin Kerstein said:

And just because official forums in the past have not been a nice place doesn't mean this is the way it has to be. Time for change ;)

As much as I have faith in you guys, I am unconvinced that you will be able to bend the entire internet to your will.

It's not just about stopping flaming either.  That's the easy, straight forward part.

We have fairly lax quality standards due to having to cater for the lowest common denominator here (which is now your job I guess) and we still delete a whole world of threads due to low discussion quality.

And yeah, it makes us the bad guys in the eyes of a whole load of people, but we take the hit and those people go on loving anet and getting grumpy about mean old guru - but now that's in your hands.  You get to be the ones who are faced with 1000 threads asking what your favourite sylvari eye colour is or petitioning arena net to add blinking into combat animations, and you get to be the bad guy who says "no, this is stupid so I'm going to close it".

Or you get to have a forum that's filled with the inane ramblings of people who think the "new thread" button is the gw2 equivalent of their facebook wall.  A place that cannot be used for any serious discussion without wading through a plague of banality.

I personally don't think your moderators will be given the claws to make decisions about thread quality in the same way that an independent site can, but I will observe with interest!

Thank you for making our lives as moderators of guru easier, either way, and thank you all for your terrific support of this fansite during the pre-release phase.  I hope you continue to post even when the official site is up!!

Edited by Chalky, 15 March 2012 - 07:13 PM.

Do you need help or just want to chat about moderation?  Drop me a PM.

#130 Kotetsu Rain

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:11 PM

Mwah, this was kind of inevitable but way to early to say if this is a good thing or a bad thing. My mindset is that when people who purchase GW2 learn about their being an official forum, and knowing Anet, they'll make it their business to let people know, they're going to join it 90% of the time. So if this takes away from other forums maybe, but everyone can join multiple forum sites.

Gonna stick with GW2Guru until GW3Guru is made. But I will also be joining the official forums because Martin's blog post makes it sound like they've taken what the world knows as a forum and have beefed it up with social steroids.

Edit: Cheeky notes of 'take the trash away from us' is kinda uncalled for peeps. (my opinion)

#131 OrdinaryOwl

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:11 PM

Senatic said:

Yea, just don't become one of those blizzard/bioware forums where if anyone says anything you don't agree with or negative about your company you start banning people.

That kind of stuff makes me sick to my stomach. And it has been going on a bit here on guru as well, mods don't always stay entirely objective.

I don't really see ArenaNet banning people for politely pointing out management moves they disagree with.  The feeling I got from the blog post was more that ArenaNet was interested in curtailing the unfriendly environment that can result in these sorts of official forums.  Whenever I ventured into WOW, I constantly saw people flinging out sexist and homophobic comments--nothing at all to do with the game.  All this did was make the atmosphere of the forums very unfriendly, while doing nothing to advance the goals of playing the game and having fun.  I get the impression that when Martin talks about "community standards" he is talking about eliminating this sort of unfriendly behavior, and if that means banning users who insist on poisoning the atmosphere after being warned, I am entirely okay with that.

#132 Drokk

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:12 PM

Specialz said:

Doesn't guru already have some of those already;).

I don't understand if Guru can do it why can't Arenanet do it? What's to stop Arenanet from doing what Curse does with guru?
I'm not disputing their ability to moderate. ANet will have more far power to do so since obviously your game account will be tied with your forum account.

What I'm not looking forward to is the endless amount of qq posts complaining about EVERYTHING. People are spoiled, entitled little runts who think the game needs to be perfectly conformed to their ideal specifications. Official forums means there will be an expectation that if they whine loud enough, ANet will have to respond. So negativity will once again dominate the forums.

But...it's no skin off my back. If ANet wants to take it on, that's their call.

#133 Fozzik

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:12 PM

Martin Kerstein said:

Which part of "We will make sure our forums reflect our standards" was unclear? ;)

That's easier said than done. ;) Which I'm sure you know.

It's very tricky...and a lot of companies fail at maintaining forums, either because they allow almost anything, play favorites, or are much too quick to close discussions or delete posts when they are unfavorable towards the product.

There's a very fine line between maintaining healthy and mature discussions, and being outright dictatorial and oppressive of certain points of view just because they are controversial or unpopular, or might negatively affect sales. Deciding where to draw the line is exceptionally difficult, especially on forums which officially represent a business. I don't envy you that task.

Since the post just happens to be about community... how does ArenaNet feel about the issue of the lack of player to player trading, and the affect this will have on community within the game...the fact that GW2's economy will totally be a solo, cross-server UI experience that doesn't seem to involve face-to-face interaction at all? Could you maybe talk about ArenaNet's decision-making process that lead to forgoing community-building in this aspect of the game?

#134 chiclet

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

Polite and respectful posts does not preclude being passionate about your opinions, conjectures and number-crunching theories. There's a huge difference between arguing with somebody (or several somebodies) about something you feel strongly about in your game-of-choice and being a total trollhead on the subject. You can tell when somebody's contributing and when somebody's making noise for the sake of hearing themselves out loud.

I love the idea of official forums and will happily make that my new home for all things Informational and Interesting, as well as peeking at the wiki for help on specific subjects. I like communities. I like being IN a community. And I am so very glad that that there's a *hope* that moderation from ArenaNet will keep toxicity to a dull roar because nothing kills interest faster than forums full of sludge.

I love screwing up my metaphors.

#135 ilr

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

YES!   YES!!

Best news I've heard all year!  I'm happier about this news than I'd be about a beta invite, that's for sure.  THANK YOU marketing/support dept's for finally taking on some accountability when it comes to the moderating actions of your community.   They already deserved plenty of credit with direct Dev feedback through the Wiki which led to lots of positive changes, but  Now the Guild & PvP community can finally branch out as well and have a running dialog that isn't restricted by the 1337 police.  GOOD CHANGE.


Quote

And yeah, it makes us the bad guys in the eyes of a whole load of people, but we take the hit and those people go on loving anet and getting grumpy about mean old guru - but now that's in your hands. You get to be the ones who are faced with 1000 threads asking what your favourite sylvari eye colour is or petitioning arena net to add blinking into combat animations, and you get to be the bad guy who says "no, this is stupid so I'm going to close it".
All of us who moderate/administrate one community or another have to put up with this stuff too.  The only question is:  "How thick is your skin?".  The better the results you're getting, the thicker your skin can afford to be.  And Net's results going into next month is making the last three AAA titles shipped last year look like shriveled turds.  ...let the haters hate.  And let the community snuff out the Trolls, they're smarter than you usually give them credit for.

Fozzik said:

It's very tricky...and a lot of companies fail at maintaining forums, either because they allow almost anything, play favorites, or are much too quick to close discussions or delete posts when they are unfavorable towards the product.

There is no super fine line, okay?  This isn't rocket science.   This is what EVERY post comes down to:
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem   <--- Either someone is harassing someone else specifically, or they're not.

Edited by ilr, 15 March 2012 - 07:28 PM.


#136 al capowned

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

Martin Kerstein said:


And i am sure a lot of people might have to adjust their online behaviour, which is probably a good thing.

if you simply ban everyone that acts like an asshat you won't have a community. You can't turn stupid into anything other than stupid..
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#137 rodasta

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

Might be that we can't create threads on the guild wars 2 forum? Wouldn't that solve the problem of meaningless threads?

#138 BlairPhoenix

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:13 PM

Big Ol Norn said:

lol'ing hard at the white knights right now.

The whole of the internets is surreal at times.

White knights and trolls, oh my.

#139 Santoryuu

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:14 PM

Martin Kerstein said:

No, it is actually easy. There is no rule that you have to tolerate obnoxious behaviour. If people want to be "cool kids on the internet", they can do so. But not on our forums.



They will need energy drinks and a clear set of rules which we will provide. ;)

Just to make this point clear: Many of us have been around gaming communities for a long time, as players as well as professionals. We are not naive. There was a lot of research and thought behind what we want to achieve.

And i am sure a lot of people might have to adjust their online behaviour, which is probably a good thing.

Martin Kerstein said:

Which part of "We will make sure our forums reflect our standards" was unclear? ;)

Martin seems to think highly of himself. :surprised:

Please come back to Earth.

#140 Ring

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:15 PM

I'm actually really glad to hear that there'll be official forums.  Even though I've never really been a huge official-forum contributor to games in the past, I've always thought that it probably looked a little odd from an outside perspective to see the primary forum presence of the developers on a fansite.  As I mentioned the last time the official forums/no official forums debate came up, it took me a while to realize that Guru is the Guild Wars forum, and I would never have found it if I weren't the type of player who actively searches for fansites and third-party forums to get more information on how to play a game.

Martin--as long as you guys don't get any bright ideas about real names the way Blizzard did, I trust you'll handle things well.  Speaking of handles, is that something you're implementing, or will we be posting using our character names?

Edited by Ring, 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM.


#141 BlairPhoenix

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:15 PM

Santoryuu said:

Martin seems to think highly of himself. :surprised:

Please come back to Earth.

Why should he? Earth sucks. I'd much rather be where he is.

#142 OrdinaryOwl

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

al capowned said:

if you simply ban everyone that acts like an asshat you won't have a community. You can't turn stupid into anything other than stupid..

I disagree.  If you ban everyone who cannot be civil in a discussion, you are left with... people who can be civil in a discussion.  Which invites more people to discuss, if they feel their ideas will be met with respect.

#143 Kotetsu Rain

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

Santoryuu said:

Martin seems to think highly of himself. :surprised:

Please come back to Earth.

He said our. And sure, his time as a CM gives him absolutely no credibility.

#144 rodasta

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:17 PM

Santoryuu said:

Martin seems to think highly of himself. :surprised:

Please come back to Earth.

I'm sure they have thought hard and a lot about creating their own forums. He thinks highly of the capabilities of the entire community team and us the community in itself;) not only of himself

#145 chromicat

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM

Craywulf said:

It's clear, but I don't see you acknowledging the vast difficulty of creating a forum that doesn't have heavy population of whiners and trolls. Saying it's easy isn't exactly holding much weight.

Unless you have some trick up your sleeves to stow the pettiness that plague official MMO forums.  I really can't take you too seriously. I mean I would LOVE for GW2 forums to really succeed, and they certainly deserve so, but it's wishful thinking at this point.
It's called moderation isn't it?

#146 Whiteraven

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM

OrdinaryOwl said:

I disagree.  If you ban everyone who cannot be civil in a discussion, you are left with... people who can be civil in a discussion.  Which invites more people to discuss, if they feel their ideas will be met with respect.

^ This, such high standards could bring out the silent majority in my opinion.

#147 Burl

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:18 PM

Martin Kerstein said:

Which part of "We will make sure our forums reflect our standards" was unclear? ;)

You've earned a lifelong fan here Martin.  I love the approach you guys are taking.  I hope with the "Official Forums" these will also include server specific forums as well?  One of the greatest things about DAOC was the ability of the communities to really come together and communicate (and yes, talk some smack) to the other servers.  It really helps garner some cohesion among the members of a server and really facilitates the WvW experience.

#148 thelius

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

It'll be interesting to see what sorts of PvP community sites are endorsed as part of the community and if elitest sites like the QQ forums will be endorsed.

I recall when GW1 started out, The Guild Hall had elite fansite as seemed to have the largest congregation of PvPers and as they brought up concerns about various issues with the state of the game (grindy unlocking to get ready for pvp, lack of uax, etc) their fansite status slowly was downgraded and I believe they were eventually removed from the listings altogether (granted the discussion there went downhill fast after Factions).

Also I'm curious if they will bring back the guild of the week thing that they did for GW1. That was always fun to read.

#149 Fozzik

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

OrdinaryOwl said:

I disagree.  If you ban everyone who cannot be civil in a discussion, you are left with... people who can be civil in a discussion.  Which invites more people to discuss, if they feel their ideas will be met with respect.

Banning people who cross the line is easy. Deleting posts and closing threads is easy. Figuring out where to draw the line, and how to apply it to each post, poster, and thread... VERY hard, especially when you are representing a business, and especially when you have multiple employees trying to be consistent in their subjective determinations. Anyone who doesn't think it's hard hasn't done it yet.

#150 al capowned

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

OrdinaryOwl said:

I disagree.  If you ban everyone who cannot be civil in a discussion, you are left with... people who can be civil in a discussion.  Which invites more people to discuss, if they feel their ideas will be met with respect.


the problem here is that most of you have terrible ideas not worth discussing.
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