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ArenaNet: Mike O’Brien on Microtransactions in Guild Wars 2


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Poll: Gold to Gem trading - how do you feel? (2438 member(s) have cast votes)

Gold to Gem trading - how do you feel?

  1. I love the idea of trading gems and gold (574 votes [23.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.54%

  2. It sounds like it may be good, but time will tell (1024 votes [42.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.00%

  3. Neutral/don't care/don't know/just want people to stop complaining (427 votes [17.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.51%

  4. It sounds like it will negatively affect my enjoyment of the game (230 votes [9.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.43%

  5. I hate the idea of trading gems and gold. (183 votes [7.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.51%

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#3661 Lag Master

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:36 AM

ACWhammy said:

Using that logic Anet should give us all equal amounts of real-world cash to spend on gems.

And an equal amount of free time to spend playing GW2. That would be awesome but, sadly, impossible.

#3662 Daga2222

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:40 AM

Lag Master said:

And so you would condemn everyone who can't afford to spend lots of time playing GW2  to inferiority to those who have lots of free time?

It's not about condemning somebody who doesn't have enough time to "inferiority." Everyone that's max level will be on a similar playing field anyways. But shouldn't there also be distinctions for people that have taken the time to master the game? Being able to buy something that otherwise you could only get if you really took the time to master the game is not a good thing.

It eliminates the intrinsic value of an item. Über item that you can only get if you worked super hard (by saving gold or what have you) is really special. But if some other player can just pay to get it, it's not as special anymore.

Now I know that there will be karma and dungeon rewards to fill some of that gap, but that's a small part of the bigger picture.

And finally, the argument that people would be able to use gold farmers anyways to get those items if there was no gem system is a weak one. The whole point is that the gem system is making something like this very accessible and common as opposed to the much fewer players that would actually take the risk to use gold farmers.

Not everyone might think this way, but hopefully that makes the perspective of most of the people that are complaining a little bit clearer. If you really look at the situation with an unbiased opinion, you can see this is a valid argument.

#3663 Sent

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:41 AM

ACWhammy said:


Clearly Player A has an unfair advnatage! Now I ask you, HOW IS THIS FAIR!?

Do you get up in the morning and say "Dude! Zuckerberg is a billionaire! UNFAIR!"

If a guy plays 24 hours a day and you play 6 what are you going to do? Hunt him down and murder him? UNFAIR BRO!

#3664 fundayz

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:48 AM

Muddlefoot said:

I'd say for those who just are so upset about this news and thinking about not buying the game, you are seriously over reacting. At least wait until you see what's in the store. But hey, maybe for everyone's peace of mind, including your own then maybe those unhappy with this SHOULD pass on the game. No point in making everyone else miserable.

We already know that anything you can get with gold, you'll be able to get using cash. That's what the blog post was about.

If you want to make this sort of argument go with "We haven't seen the system in action", at least then you'd be factually correct.

#3665 dread slayer

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:49 AM

Sent said:

Do you get up in the morning and say "Dude! Zuckerberg is a billionaire! UNFAIR!"

If a guy plays 24 hours a day and you play 6 what are you going to do? Hunt him down and murder him? UNFAIR BRO!

Nope, you just add gems to make it so the player who plays 6 hours can CATCH UP to player who plays 24 hours, so it can be fair.... right? That's what we're aiming for? For it to be fair for the MAJORITY of the players?

*Le sigh

#3666 verrda

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:49 AM

They key factor in all of this is still missing

WHAT is going to be sold in the cash shop exactly?

If we see a bunch of cosmetic items, character slots, minipets, town clothes and such. gems won't be a superior currency

If the cash shop offers, ANY kind of player buff or increase in things like;

karma or boosts to karma gained over a certain period
influence or boosts to it
glory or boosts to it
heath boosts
boons
damage boosts
crafting boost
item drop boosts
dodge boosts
experience or boosts for it
armor and  weapons (actual pieces, not skins for t-stones)
movement speed buffs
free instant travel for an amount of time/amount
free trait respec for an amount of time/amount
skill points or unlocks
(at which point GW2 will be a F2P title with an upfront cost)

Gems will be THE currency of the game.
Gold will just be a commodity to get the items of real worth

I don't have a problem with Gems per-say I have a problem with the fact that Anet can use the "Gems can be gained with gold" system to justify a Pay2Win or a "Pay 2 Not Grind" cash shop, because ultimately you CAN get things in the cash shop with in-game currency, you'll just need to farm that gold grind.

I hate farming, I've yet to personally meet anyone who enjoys it (i know people like this exist, IMO I think they are crazy for it, and I'm crazy for other things but alas my point...) I enjoyed Guild Wars because I bought the game and could (potentially, in reality I spent a lot of money on the cash shop) enjoy the entire game to it's fullest and never feel like I was being held back or at a disadvantage after buying the initial box or expansion but that is legit content and in the case of campaigns like factions and nightfall basically another game.

Back onto gems for gold though, the system itself is not flawed, in theory it can be could damn near the closest thing to perfect we have ever seen in a cash shop for a game.

Given the cash shop does not provide any kind of player advantage, period.

At this point I doubt that will be the case, because ultimately Anet is in this for profit. They have an amazing game and they know it, putting in a "Pay 2 Not Grind And Still Win" system will be the best way to maximize profit while saving face. They will lose some customers no doubt, possibly even old loyal fans (like myself) but they will not lose revenue, potentially they will gain a lot more which apparently is all that really matters.

Edited by verrda, 22 March 2012 - 05:00 AM.


#3667 Lag Master

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:55 AM

Daga2222 said:

It's not about condemning somebody who doesn't have enough time to "inferiority." Everyone that's max level will be on a similar playing field anyways. But shouldn't there also be distinctions for people that have taken the time to master the game? Being able to buy something that otherwise you could only get if you really took the time to master the game is not a good thing.

It eliminates the intrinsic value of an item. Über item that you can only get if you worked super hard (by saving gold or what have you) is really special. But if some other player can just pay to get it, it's not as special anymore.

Now I know that there will be karma and dungeon rewards to fill some of that gap, but that's a small part of the bigger picture.

And finally, the argument that people would be able to use gold farmers anyways to get those items if there was no gem system is a weak one. The whole point is that the gem system is making something like this very accessible and common as opposed to the much fewer players that would actually take the risk to use gold farmers.

Not everyone might think this way, but hopefully that makes the perspective of most of the people that are complaining a little bit clearer. If you really look at the situation with an unbiased opinion, you can see this is a valid argument.

You obviously value hard work and personal achievement, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you must understand that some people simply cant afford to spend the time needed to accomplish those things normally. They either need an alternative way to accomplish them or they might never accomplish them. Can you imagine only being able to play an hour a day a few days a week? Some (maby even most) dungeons will take over an hour to beat unless you use cash shop items. Time restricted players need this.

#3668 Enenion

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:58 AM

ACWhammy said:

Ok everyone prepare yourselves for this is THE ULTIMATE illustration is to why this is unfair:

Player A - A very, very rich, retired guy who spends lots of cash on gems daily and plays the game 18 hours per day.

Player B - A very, very rich guy who spends lots of cash on gems daily but can only play the game 1 hour per day.

Player C - A very, very lazy guy who can't buy any gems but spends 18 hours per day farming.

Player D - A very, very poor, lazy guy who doesn't buy gems and only plays the game 1 hour per day.

Player E - A guy who buys Guild Wars 2 and never installs it.

Player F - A guy who never buys Guild Wars 2.

Clearly Player A has an unfair advnatage! Now I ask you, HOW IS THIS FAIR!?

So Player A ends up having more in game gold than player C. What's he going to do with all that gold? He could use it to buy or craft different skins of armor and look fancier than player C (that is, if the best skins are purchasable, and at least dungeon skins are not). He could spend it all on town clothes and dyes and minipets until he's the fanciest character of them all. And yet, if he were to jump into PvP, player C would likely still kick his ass because player C has played the game much more and is likely much more skilled. Do remember that GW2 combat relies much more on skill than stats due to the active dodging and positioning of abilities.

What do you care if player A has more money than player C? PvE is not a competition between players, but even if it was the players would be on even footing regardless of the amount of gold player A has. A player with 1000 gold will have roughly the same stats as someone with 10gold. I say roughly because really it depends on if player D (the poor guy) can keep pace with the consumables being used by player A, but the consumables we've seen so far are extremely cheap and their overall bonuses are not that big to start with.

PvP is obviously competitive but the amount of gold still doesn't matter because it is completely removed from this type of gameplay.

WvW may be an issue with the guild bonuses you can buy for influence but those bonuses are pretty minor as is, with the bonuses for winning WvW being much better in the first place. Also people still assume that guilds will have to buy gems to keep up with these bonuses which we know not to be true. Beta players playing normally gathered a large enough amount of influence to pay for any of the stat boosting bonuses without gems. Couple that with the fact that you can't instantly buy all bonuses since they each have a separate research time and suddenly having more than enough influence to pay for the bonuses won't give you an advantage over those who have just enough money to pay for the bonuses.

To sum up, player A may have more gold than the rest but that gives him no statistical advantage in PvP and at worst a very miniscule one in PvE, or WvW. It may make him look fancier though. How unfair.

Edited by Enenion, 22 March 2012 - 05:04 AM.


#3669 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:59 AM

valiumcoffee said:

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332391964907.jpg

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332392016603.jpg

Cash shop leaks

I am fine with all of those. I really, really don’t care if someone wants to speed up their progression and miss the bulk of the game. It doesn’t hurt me any, but when they get to max level and see the lack of traditional endgame…disappointment….

#3670 Essence Snow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:59 AM

valiumcoffee said:

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332391964907.jpg

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332392016603.jpg

Cash shop leaks

Nice find.....

Well now well can sorta price gems by thier relation to char slots 800=1 slot

historically 1 slot=8-10usd so 80-100 per 1usd?

Edited by Essence Snow, 22 March 2012 - 05:06 AM.
og post was edited


#3671 verrda

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:01 AM

valiumcoffee said:

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332391964907.jpg

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332392016603.jpg

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332392135800.jpg

Cash shop leaks

I...don't...even

Literally two post after mine what I feared is basically confirmed

Honestly I could live with experience boosts, leveling up faster is basically missing part of the game, but karma and item find boosts? Not so much

GJ arenanet, I foresee you making lots of money and best of luck to you. You made a great game, sad I won't be able to play it due to philosophical and business practice changes of your company contradicting my ideas on etiquette  for business.

If this is still in there in live, (i have a glimmer of hope it won't be) my money will be going elsewhere.

Edited by verrda, 22 March 2012 - 05:43 AM.
for clarification of idea


#3672 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:03 AM

verrda said:

I...don't...even

Literally two post after mine what I feared is basically confirmed

GJ arenanet, I foresee you making lots of money and best of luck to you. You made a great game, sad I won't be able to play it due to philosophical and buisness practice changes of your company.

If this is still in there in live, it will not be my money though.

What if it turns out that those same boosts are craftable in-game? That is the way it was in the original Guild Wars.

#3673 ACWhammy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:05 AM

Lag Master said:

And an equal amount of free time to spend playing GW2. That would be awesome but, sadly, impossible.

They do^^

Samhayn said:

Player A is rich, retired and has 18 hours a day to play a video game? Screw winning at GW2 that man won at life.

I couldnt stop laughing :D

Lag Master said:

You obviously value hard work and personal achievement, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you must understand that some people simply cant afford to spend the time needed to accomplish those things normally. They either need an alternative way to accomplish them or they might never accomplish them. Can you imagine only being able to play an hour a day a few days a week? Some (maby even most) dungeons will take over an hour to beat unless you use cash shop items. Time restricted players need this.

You would be correct if everyone had an equal amount of money to spend on gems.

Enenion said:

So Player A ends up having more in game gold than player C. What's he going to do with all that gold? He could use it to buy or craft different skins of armor and look fancier than player C (that is, if the best skins are purchasable, and at least dungeon skins are not). He could spend it all on town clothes and dyes and minipets until he's the fanciest character of them all. And yet, if he were to jump into PvP, player C would likely still kick his ass because player C has played the game much more and is likely much more skilled. Do remember that GW2 combat relies much more on skill than stats due to the active dodging and positioning of abilities.

What do you care if player A has more money than player C? PvE is not a competition between players, but even if it was the players would be on even footing regardless of the amount of gold player A has. A player with 1000 gold will have roughly the same stats as someone with 10gold. I say roughly because really it depends on if player D (the poor guy) can keep pace with the consumables being used by player A, but the consumables we've seen so far are extremely cheap and their overall bonuses are not that big to start with.

PvP is obviously competitive but the amount of gold still doesn't matter because it is completely removed from this type of gameplay.

WvW may be an issue with the guild bonuses you can buy for influence but those bonuses are pretty minor as is, with the bonuses for winning WvW being much better in the first place. Also people still assume that guilds will have to buy gems to keep up with these bonuses which we know not to be true. Beta players playing normally gathered a large enough amount of influence to pay for any of the stat boosting bonuses without gems. Couple that with the fact that you can't instantly buy all bonuses since they each have a separate research time and suddenly having more than enough influence to pay for the bonuses won't give you an advantage over those who have just enough money to pay for the bonuses.

To sum up, player A may have more gold than the rest but that gives him no statistical advantage in PvP and at worst a very miniscule one in PvE, or WvW. It may make him look fancier though. How unfair.

Did I mention that the reason Player E never installed the game is because Player DD bought the game, installed it, realized cash-shop items could be sold in-game and called Player E to tell him?

valiumcoffee said:


Cash shop leaks


Let me be the first to say I'm totally ok with these and I was definitely skeptical of the system when obrien announced it.

On a personal note, I'm sad to see that minis are available in the cash-shop as well. I've always thought them as a reward for playing the game. Oh wait a minute...having gems that can be traded for gold, and gold that can be used to buy minipets nullifies the fact the minis are in the cash shop anyway.

Edited by ACWhammy, 22 March 2012 - 05:15 AM.


#3674 verrda

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:07 AM

Arkham Creed said:

What if it turns out that those same boosts are craftable in-game? That is the way it was in the original Guild Wars.


they'd have to be ridiculously easy for an average player to get at which point, why have it in the cash shop?

Someone with gems could sell the gems for gold to buy the in-game craftable. Possibly at a much better ratio

#3675 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:10 AM

verrda said:

they'd have to be ridiculously easy for an average player to get at which point, why have it in the cash shop?

Someone with gems could sell the gems for gold to buy the in-game craftable. Possibly at a much better ratio

Connivance. That is what the cash shop is ultimately for. People may not have to gold to buy these things in game, nor the crafting skill to make their own. In that case they are at a disadvantage unless they can buy them from the cash shop. Funny how that works really…it is all in one’s perspective. As to selling gems for gold, doesn't work if the market is already flooded and no one will buy your gems. based on everything I've seen Arena Net do since I've started following these forums years ago, and playing GW1 years before that, indicates that there will be multiple ways to get everything gameplay effecting.

Edited by Arkham Creed, 22 March 2012 - 05:12 AM.


#3676 rukh

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:11 AM

I think you all are underestimating how large the red category is.  The hard working lower/middle-class.  College students.  Kids with parents who limit time in front of the computer.  Hardcores who's dedication is split between multiple games.  And casuals who simply don't find the cash shop items appealing enough to buy.  Perhaps not the largest, but certainly not a tiny minority.

This is the category that will fall even farther behind in the economy under this system.  Before they only had to compete with people with more time.  Now, they have to deal with a time disadvantage as well as a $$ disadvantage.

#3677 Lag Master

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:11 AM

ACWhammy said:

They do^^

Really? 'Cause last I checked Anet doesn't control my work schedule.

#3678 Enenion

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:12 AM

verrda said:

they'd have to be ridiculously easy for an average player to get at which point, why have it in the cash shop?

Someone with gems could sell the gems for gold to buy the in-game craftable. Possibly at a much better ratio

We know at least the karma boost is available through influence trading, and it's influence price is pretty negligible. That is assuming it doesn't stack. All things considered though 75 gems is the cheapest item there, and likely worth less than $1 since gems are likely 80-100 for $1.

#3679 Daga2222

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:13 AM

Lag Master said:

You obviously value hard work and personal achievement, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you must understand that some people simply cant afford to spend the time needed to accomplish those things normally. They either need an alternative way to accomplish them or they might never accomplish them. Can you imagine only being able to play an hour a day a few days a week? Some (maby even most) dungeons will take over an hour to beat unless you use cash shop items. Time restricted players need this.

On the flip side, some people will argue that if people can't devote the time and develop their skill and mastery of the game enough, they shouldn't be able to accomplish those things period. it's not like someone can pay to get an Xbox 360 achievement.

My whole point is that both sides of the argument are valid and people have a reason to complain.

#3680 Mr. Mango

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:14 AM

The leak makes me sad. Lots of that stuff seems stupid, stuff in the bottom two images.

#3681 verrda

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:15 AM

Arkham Creed said:

Connivance. That is what the cash shop is ultimately for. People may not have to gold to buy these things in game, nor the crafting skill to make their own. In that case they are at a disadvantage unless they can buy them from the cash shop. Funny how that works really…it is all in one’s perspective.

Then that convenience should come at a much greater cost, if you want to not deal with a player trading for your boosts and such you should pay for such in RM.

The in-game version should be a little less convinient ( and i mean a little qutie literally) and ultimately cheaper in gold price

#3682 Essence Snow

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:16 AM

The consumables kinda worry me.....the megaphone (i have a feeling) will become very annoying...here's to hoping we have option not to view all of them

#3683 KillSlash

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:16 AM

All those boosts are obtainable in game by a guild, so it's not too terrible I guess.

But I really had hoped they wouldn't be obtainable with gems, and influence from gold would be cut.

Sigh

Well....so long as I can still get my best gear (stat wise) relatively easily (like GW1), and not feel compelled to buy in order to compete in PvP/play PvE effectively, then I can live with it.

If you can reach a statistical power plateau, getting the best gear quickly at max level, what does karma/itemfind boosts give you really?

More karma to spend on shinier armor? More itemfind to find said shiny armor?

If that's all then I can definitely live with it.

#3684 Arkham Creed

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:17 AM

verrda said:

The in-game version should be a little less convinient ( and i mean a little qutie literally) and ultimately cheaper in gold price

Time will tell. Personally I don't see anything in those screens that says "unfair pay-to-win" to me. Just some extra perks and a few time savers.

#3685 Enenion

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:17 AM

Out of the leaks, the only things I have even the slightest trouble with are the magic find and karma boosts, both of which seem really cheap and still don't affect the average gameplay.

#3686 Ortus Shard

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:17 AM

verrda said:

I...don't...even

Literally two post after mine what I feared is basically confirmed

Honestly I could live with experience boosts, leveling up faster is basically missing part of the game, but karma and item find boosts? Not so much

GJ arenanet, I foresee you making lots of money and best of luck to you. You made a great game, sad I won't be able to play it due to philosophical and business practice changes of your company contradicting my ideas on proper morals for business.

If this is still in there in live, (i have a glimmer of hope it won't be) my money will be going elsewhere.

More than a little pretentious, no? You don't have a moral or philosophical upper hand, here; either you buy the game or don't. Karma boosts are in the realm of, "we don't want RMT in our secondary currency system at all! Non-RMT players want something to show that they didn't buy to win anything!" realm, and item find boosts fall to the realm of, "burqywe6q2t4rtgatsdg pay to win!#!@#!@!!! pay to win!@#!!!!!! uo2y414671264".

Item find boosts, especially 10%, will be a pretty huge waste of your gem sources - not only because the drops are still not guaranteed, 10% extra chance of acquiring an item with stats on it isn't really all that powerful. The rarer stats will still be just as rare, you aren't being granted a bonus to just the rare stats. Better to just sell your gems to buy the items with the rare stats for gold, then use or sell them at a later date for profit.

And both of these will be available from Influence, anyways...

Edited by Ortus Shard, 22 March 2012 - 05:21 AM.


#3687 verrda

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:18 AM

valiumcoffee said:

More

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332392834949.png

http://images.4chan.org/vg/src/1332393152612.png



Thank you ArenaNet ! You didn't lie to us :) whatta a surprise.

We now all them anspology for doubting and anyone who said p2w. These are all pretty cosmetic. I for one am really happy.

How is a karma boost purely cosmetic?

I hope that is sarcasm

#3688 trollberry

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:18 AM

On the leaked info it looks like we may have a $:gems ratio of 1:100 - 1:200.  Now all we need is the average gold per hour earn rate :)

#3689 saxophone15

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

I don't have a problem with any of the stuff I see in the cash shop so far. Why would I care if someone wants to get a boost for an hour?

#3690 verrda

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

Ortus Shard said:

More than a little pretentious, no? You don't have a moral or philosophical upper hand, here; either you buy the game or don't.

I never said I have a moral upperhand

I'm simply stating that it's DIFFERENT, different is not better or worse