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Dual Gunner Thief?


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#1 Chaotic

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:23 AM

I wanna use the thief, but I'm really attracted to the dual pistol idea. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems from what I've been hearing, the dual pistol is considerably weaker than the melee weapons. Especially with all this talk about thieves main niche is to do stealthy, backstab crits, I don't see a thief using pistols as his main weapon very viable in pvp...

Can you give me some hope? What do you all think?

#2 Bismarck

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:41 AM

They've been to either side of the spectrum in various development builds. Pistol/pistol was the most powerful thief weapon set for quite a while. So, I guess we'll just see what changes the rest of the beta tests result in.

#3 upier

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:57 AM

The combination of Unload and Head Shot will either make or break the guy. If these two skills won't be worth it, then the pistol set won't be either.
The problem is that this is pretty shitty option to balance - you have two really good skill effects here, so it's going to be interesting to watch how they deal with it.

#4 Dreamweaver

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:04 AM

Also, all the dual pistol vids are a bit old. I don't know what traits they used, which could help a whole lot.

A very very quick build I made:
http://gw2.luna-atra...uk00087898b8l8s

-Vulnerability, Daze
-Ice Drake Venom (6 sec chill per attack, for multiple attacks) combined with Unload will Chill a foe for a long time, slowing it and slowing already recharging skills.

The build isn't really good or anything, it just shows that there are traits which you could make a build around with pistols.

#5 Chaotic

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:19 AM

Dreamweaver said:

Also, all the dual pistol vids are a bit old. I don't know what traits they used, which could help a whole lot.

A very very quick build I made:
http://gw2.luna-atra...uk00087898b8l8s

-Vulnerability, Daze
-Ice Drake Venom (6 sec chill per attack, for multiple attacks) combined with Unload will Chill a foe for a long time, slowing it and slowing already recharging skills.

The build isn't really good or anything, it just shows that there are traits which you could make a build around with pistols.

Wait, why would you trait in the combo (3-skill) dmg bonus? Is that specifically for auto attacks with a 3-hit chain (which the pistol does NOT have)?

I totally forgot about poisons though. Having the ability to apply the poison effects from range is definitely a bonus.

What also bums me out is that the thief's unique mechanic, stealing, already seems to imply that the thief is meant to be at close range. Why would a ranged thief find this mechanic useful at all?

Maybe I'm looking at it too 1-dimensional though, since the whole purpose is to swap between ranged and melee weapons. I guess I just want to make sure that there is enough for a thief to be effective at range without being completely overshadowed by those who prefer melee combat.

#6 Dreamweaver

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

I must say that personally I think the pistol isn't that good either, just wanted to help ya out. I always thought the combo (3-skill) was the combination skill in the 3th slot? /facepalm if it isn't.

Anyway, as you said, a pistol next to your 2 melee weapons could get the right condition or venom off from a distance.

#7 Chaotic

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

Dreamweaver said:

I must say that personally I think the pistol isn't that good either, just wanted to help ya out. I always thought the combo (3-skill) was the combination skill in the 3th slot? /facepalm if it isn't.

Anyway, as you said, a pistol next to your 2 melee weapons could get the right condition or venom off from a distance.

oh perhaps you're right. /facepalm as well. lol.

#8 saladin1

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

Chaotic said:

Wait, why would you trait in the combo (3-skill) dmg bonus? Is that specifically for auto attacks with a 3-hit chain (which the pistol does NOT have)?

I totally forgot about poisons though. Having the ability to apply the poison effects from range is definitely a bonus.

What also bums me out is that the thief's unique mechanic, stealing, already seems to imply that the thief is meant to be at close range. Why would a ranged thief find this mechanic useful at all?

Maybe I'm looking at it too 1-dimensional though, since the whole purpose is to swap between ranged and melee weapons. I guess I just want to make sure that there is enough for a thief to be effective at range without being completely overshadowed by those who prefer melee combat.
There's a trait to increase the range of steal, right now it's hard to tell the actual range of it to make it useful for a range thief. Long Reach.

Anyway, a pure range can be very deadly in pvp and pve if trait right, something i had in mind was the venom, poison )slowing, immoblize). Something along the line of this

#9 MonkeyboyGWW

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:31 AM

saladin1 said:

There's a trait to increase the range of steal, right now it's hard to tell the actual range of it to make it useful for a range thief. Long Reach.

Anyway, a pure range can be very deadly in pvp and pve if trait right, something i had in mind was the venom, poison )slowing, immoblize). Something along the line of this

I always thought that the range of steal would mean that you can use steal (shadowstep) and get close to your target from further away. Not that you can steal an item and stay at a distance. Although I would like if it is the latter to make range viable, but it would be even better if that was a built in mechanic that someone mentioned in a previous post.

"make steal look like a scorpion wire and steal at a distance" and have it as the F2 button so that we get both options built into our mechanic already.


Edit: another thing to consider is that range should be a little less powerful than melee, otherwise you could trait the same as melee but have all the advantages of range. Rather than traiting for damage and miss out on a bit of defence. But thats kinda obvious anyway, just saying that if the people in the video are not traited very well then maybe that is why they look weak.

Edited by MonkeyboyGWW, 23 March 2012 - 11:38 AM.


#10 Chaotic

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

MonkeyboyGWW said:

I always thought that the range of steal would mean that you can use steal (shadowstep) and get close to your target from further away. Not that you can steal an item and stay at a distance. Although I would like if it is the latter to make range viable, but it would be even better if that was a built in mechanic that someone mentioned in a previous post.

"make steal look like a scorpion wire and steal at a distance" and have it as the F2 button so that we get both options built into our mechanic already.


That's exactly what I was thinking. Even if the range for you to be able to use it is increased, the activation of it still brings you to melee range. That's what I meant when i said the mechanic does not favor a range thief.

Nice build though. I definitely see that there should be more emphasis on poisoning/conditioning.

#11 Zetesofos

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:08 PM

I was thinking recently, that a simple fix might be to have steal have a trait that allowed it to operate in reverse (i.e. steal something THEN shadowstep backward).  While not usuable as an opener, it offers ranged thieves a gap maker, and they always use those.

#12 Shae

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

They could perhaps give thieves a trait that allows steal to have an effect similar to Aura of Displacement from GW1, allowing step in, follow up action, and a step out. Not sure how that would be implemented, but it would certainly give thieves who wish to play long-range weapons a way to enhance their playstyle, while adding appeal with more movement and the ability to still use all their unique mechanics.

#13 UssjTrunks

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:50 PM

The dual pistol skills seem like the least useful to me. I would love it if they were improved as running around with two pistols is totally badass.

#14 Bismarck

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:57 PM

UssjTrunks said:

The dual pistol skills seem like the least useful to me. I would love it if they were improved as running around with two pistols is totally badass.

I always like to think of weapon sets in terms of "useful for what task". For instance, pistol/pistol may end up being rather useful for coordinated focused-fire alongside teammates, certainly if there is any sort of combo field that will add something to every single one of your projectiles.

Also, the huge number of shots mean that on-crit effects (and procs) trigger more often.

#15 Aleenik

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:36 AM

I'd love to use dual pistols as a thief, but ya, I'm definitely concerned about the viability of it.

#16 IDarko

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:52 AM

Wielding dual guns with the bounty hunter armor will be really epic.

#17 Cyril

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:09 PM

Dual Pistols work as a secondary weapon firing from rofftops in battlegrounds. Theyre meant to be your range equivilent when you need to get out of there.

#18 Alternate Eyes

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 03:19 PM

I think P/P will be a very viable option. Ive been building a strong build myself.

I think however that you miss understand the use of it. In PvP you are going to have melee attempting to close in on you all the time.

So for example a setup with P/P and P/D.

you can use dual pistols while at range and keep them at bay, dodging and kiting. Then once they get close you weapon swap Cloak and dagger to stealth and move away to begin kiting again. This combined with perks such as hidden killer, the stealth steal and stealth heal means that basically you use stealth to keep them confused and just blow them away while they can't keep up with all your movement.

If you take the hidden killer (50% crit from stealth), increased skill 3 crit and dmg traits with the assasins signit (50% inc dmg on next attack) you can create a powerful build that relies on you opening up out of the shadows with powerful unloads, followed by lots of bleeds and stealthing.

Its like a very fast paced gun shooter imo. its what I plan to play.

Plus I just want to call my Character Pistol pete :)

#19 Bismarck

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

IDarko said:

Wielding dual guns with the bounty hunter armor will be really epic.

Do you have a link to a picture of the bounty hunter armor?

#20 Ruufio

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:59 PM

Regarding Combo Crit Chance: Combo skills (3-slot) have increased chance to crit. and Initial Strike: 1-slot skills have a chance to regain initiative. I am 99% sure that these mean combo skills such as (1)Double Strike Double Strike -> (2)Wild Strike -> (3)Lotus Strike

The way that those 2 traits are worded and the effects they give should be regarded as being combo skills. Another thing is that the third skill slot for a Thief is called Dual Skill not Combo Skill. I used to believe that Combo Crit Chance: Combo skills (3-slot) have increased chance to crit. meant the third skill in your arsenal as well, but I've been convinced otherwise.

It makes sense that those 2 traits affect combo skills and not dual skills. It's just worded horribly. The name of the trait Initial Strikes means your first attack while Combo Crit Chance means the third attack in your combo. Dual skills have a few skills which are written as such - Dual skills. Eg. Combined Tactics: Dual skills return Initiative when completed.

So it seems obvious that by 1-slot and 3-slot they meant the 1st and 3rd attack in your skill 1 combination attack. Another thing to be noted is that Backstab no longer returns Initiative when stabbing from behind - which was also located on skill 1 (when in stealth). Now there is a trait (Initial Strike: 1-slot skills have a chance to regain initiative) that has a chance to return Initiative on your skill 1, 1st attack. As a side note, this trait is best for main hand Pistols since they don't have a combo attack.

Hopefully this clears things up for people so they don't make a mistake with their build.:) My old build was mistaken for that trait as well but I have since changed it. It's almost impossible to test that increased chance to crit but just go by the name of the trait because that's something that they DID get right.

Edited by Ruufio, 28 March 2012 - 09:04 PM.


#21 DudeItsBert

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:15 PM

http://medias.luna-atra.fr/gw2/skill_tool/generator.php?lang=en&code=3ckag07nmqiciiidk5pu555898g8l8m8s

This:

Using Unload as pretty much your only ability (except for when coming out of stealth, then use your #1), you can deal massive amounts of damage. With the correct gear, your crit chance will be up to 90% or so. You will be causing vulnerability with almost every shot, on top of Unload refilling your initiative bar (which means you don't need any other initiative regen utility, although I still picked up Kelptomaniac for stealing, but thats mainly so you can use cloak and dagger right away or shadow strike).

I could see vulnerability stacking up to high amounts with this build (like up to 20 or more). On top of that, since unload attacks multiple times (I'm going to assume a number around 6-9), your healing signet will heal you for at least 1k (maybe even 1.5-2k) per Unload.

I could see this being an exceptional PvE and PvP build. Although any sorts of spike damage would kill you due to giving up so much health and defense for crit and damage.

#22 Ruufio

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:07 PM

The maximum for something to stack is 5. But Vulnerability does stack in intensity and not duration so that's good. Not like it really matters though since they'll just get vulnerability put back on them in like 3 seconds lol.

#23 Bismarck

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:26 PM

Ruufio said:

The maximum for something to stack is 5. But Vulnerability does stack in intensity and not duration so that's good. Not like it really matters though since they'll just get vulnerability put back on them in like 3 seconds lol.

Vuln stacks a lot higher than 5. I can't remember which one, but I've seen some crazy numbers of stacks in videos.

#24 Leyana

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:27 PM

Vulnerability stacks a heck of a lot higher than just 5. There have been instances of Vulnerability stacking as high as 20 from just one p/p Thief. Each application is -50 defense at level 80 so that'd be -1000 defense. Maybe someone can crunch numbers to see how bad that is?

#25 Garethh

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:37 PM

Body shot stacks 1 vulnerability at a time?? how the could you get it to 20?!?!

Do thieves have a vuln on crit tactic since the venom at best is like 5 bonus... and that's still a hell of a lot of body shot's otherwise

#26 Leyana

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:48 PM

Body shot gives 3 stacks of Vulnerability per shot. There is a trait that gives Vulnerability on crit. Combine that with a crit build and Unload, and you'll be stacking Vulnerability like a boss. Coincidentally, that's the build I'll be using. ;)

#27 Ruufio

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:56 PM

3? o.0

*Learned something new today*

#28 Garethh

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:20 AM

Ruufio said:

3? o.0

*Learned something new today*

Ya... I know right...

Leyana said:

Coincidentally, that's the build I'll be using.
I mean I'll still wipe the floor with you with my melee ranger... but that's actually pretty cool ;)

#29 madooc

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:28 AM

Ruufio said:

Regarding Combo Crit Chance: Combo skills (3-slot) have increased chance to crit. and Initial Strike: 1-slot skills have a chance to regain initiative. I am 99% sure that these mean combo skills such as (1)Double Strike Double Strike -> (2)Wild Strike -> (3)Lotus Strike

The way that those 2 traits are worded and the effects they give should be regarded as being combo skills. Another thing is that the third skill slot for a Thief is called Dual Skill not Combo Skill. I used to believe that Combo Crit Chance: Combo skills (3-slot) have increased chance to crit. meant the third skill in your arsenal as well, but I've been convinced otherwise.

It makes sense that those 2 traits affect combo skills and not dual skills. It's just worded horribly. The name of the trait Initial Strikes means your first attack while Combo Crit Chance means the third attack in your combo. Dual skills have a few skills which are written as such - Dual skills. Eg. Combined Tactics: Dual skills return Initiative when completed.

So it seems obvious that by 1-slot and 3-slot they meant the 1st and 3rd attack in your skill 1 combination attack. Another thing to be noted is that Backstab no longer returns Initiative when stabbing from behind - which was also located on skill 1 (when in stealth). Now there is a trait (Initial Strike: 1-slot skills have a chance to regain initiative) that has a chance to return Initiative on your skill 1, 1st attack. As a side note, this trait is best for main hand Pistols since they don't have a combo attack.

Hopefully this clears things up for people so they don't make a mistake with their build.:) My old build was mistaken for that trait as well but I have since changed it. It's almost impossible to test that increased chance to crit but just go by the name of the trait because that's something that they DID get right.

Look at this page http://wiki.guildwar...m/wiki/Critical

You can see "Combo Crit Chance — increased chance with dual wield skills" under the "Traits that increase critical chance"

I not sure about this, I just saw it today.

#30 Ruufio

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:50 AM

Yeah the wiki is wrong though. That's not even the in game description the trait reads. I think whoever wrote it in the wiki is convinced that it's for dual skills so he wrote it like that.