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Are there still ascalonian royals out there?


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#1 Mr Dingleberg

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:22 AM

Today I was scouring through the pre-searing in GW1, and I noticed that almost every ascalonian royal family member has died during the searing or after that.

King adelbern - Died in foefire
Prince rurik - Killed by stone summit
Duke Barradin - Died in foefire
Althea Barradin - Died during searing
Duke Gaban - Killed in the flight north
Baron Egan - Survived the searing, did he survive the foefire too?
Lord Darrin - Survived Searing, did he survive the foefire too?

Is there anyone else I missed, and did the last 2 survive the foefire?

#2 draxynnic

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

I don't think there's anything to say that the last three are related to the royal family, just aristocracy (although if the family goes back for enough there's probably been an intermarriage somewhere).

Jennah is descended from Doric, but apart from that I don't think we've had any word on who might be closest to the Ascalonian throne. It'll probably be a case of painstakingly going through records recovered from the ruins to discover where it goes unless we have a 'sword in the stone'-type event.
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#3 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:59 PM

As Drax said, those last three haven't been shown to be royals - just nobles. The only Ascalonian royals (those we know to be of royal blood, rather) we met in GW1 (distant or not) are Adelbern, Barradin, and their children.

Of which, no known survivors.

As Drax said though, the Krytan royal family holds Doric's bloodline (Doric being the first Ascalonian king, whom all Ascalonian royalty is descended from).

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#4 7thCylon

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:39 PM

The more interesting question is does Jennah have siblings and who did queen Salma marry...

and who was the king and queen before Jennah...

#5 Red J

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:19 PM

The thing I don't like is that thanks to the whole 'oh gosh Dragons we must be friends now!' kind of storyline, there is zero chance the kingdom of Ascalon will ever be restored. Even if a legitimate heir to the Ascalonian throne showed up, now that we are allowed to play as the Charr, the only thing he could possibly rule is Ebonhawke. Armed conflict is pretty much out of question.

#6 Magnus

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:35 PM

7thCylon said:

The more interesting question is does Jennah have siblings and who did queen Salma marry...

and who was the king and queen before Jennah...

There is the possibility of some intrigue there; since Queen Salma's father fled the country, rather than dying. It's entirely possible there's a 'legitimate' claim to the throne from King Jadon somewhere out there, but we just don't know.

As to Ascalonian royalty, I was under the impression that the Ascalonians didn't necessarily have a set 'method' for their king to emerge; just that they had to be a descendant of Doric. Since, after all, King Adelbern became King by popular approval, rather than through the 'traditional' heir-lines (which would have led Duke Barradin to the throne).

Though the latter part is speculation.

#7 Sirius

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:42 PM

I would imagine restoring Ascalon is permanently off the books, yes. But nations have come and gone in the real world as well - so somehow it adds a kind of impact to me for this sort of thing to happen in Tyria.

#8 draxynnic

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:10 AM

I'm not sure it's actually true that Ascalon will forever be confined to Ebonhawke. Thanks to the Foefire, there is territory that the charr can't reasonably claim for themselves, including Ascalon City itself, and there's that prophecy that it'll take a king of Ascalon to quell the ghosts. If allowing Ascalon to be reborn in a limited fashion and in alliance to the charr is the price the Iron Legion needs to pay in order to be rid of the ghosts permanently, it's a price Smodur may be willing to pay.
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#9 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:42 AM

@Magnus: Adelbern wasn't made king via normal Ascalonian methods, from my understanding - hence why there were royalists (basically nobles turned bandits) who were trying to throne Adelbern and put Barradin in charge.

@Ascalon being limited to Ebonhawke: I don't think Ascalon will be limited to just Ebonhawke for three reasons. Firstly, the charr have control over the north and east, but not south and west (otherwise they'd just have gone around the walls), so while Kralkatorrik is a threat in the distant south, there is land to spread, even if not farmable. Furthermore, after Kralkatorrik is dealt with, they could spread into the desert which we now know thanks to Joko can be turned fertile.

Secondly, the charr reclaimed Ascalon due to, according to charr history, being forced out. But what if there were peaceful negotiations to give back some land? Not all of Ascalon, but enough land for the people to be a bit more content. As to why, Drax gave a reason.

Which falls into the third reason - we know the plot of the Ascalonian Catacombs now, at least partially, and while Adelbern is defeated in order to retrieve Magdaer, nothing says he's gone for good (just as he was defeated in Ghosts of Ascalon and reformed). Furthermore, we've seen his response to Sohothin - he was calmed down until Rytlock antagonized him, so if he is put to rest via a new king to lead the people (perhaps the legend is true, but in a psychological sense, not magical), then the ghosts from the Foefire could go too - since they hold his anger...

Which leads to negotiations and a return of land.

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#10 draxynnic

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:13 AM

Well, given that there are still plenty of ghosts running around in higher-level zones than the Catacombs, I think it's safe to say that that dungeon didn't end the effect of the Foefire. It may be a step along the way, though.

To be honest, I'm pretty certain that it won't be resolved in the original release. There may be a time, however where, like the removal of the Afflicted in Winds of Change, ArenaNet decides it's time to move the world forward in the timeline, and that might allow for the Foefire to be resolved and for the ghosts to be removed from persistent areas (but leaving them in instances like the charr opening sequence and the Ascalon Catacombs dungeon for those that want to go back in time to taste that content).
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#11 Red J

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

I don't think it would be easy to convince charr to give up part of their territory, howsoever it is haunted. Even if there was an heir capable to put the ghosts to rest. The Charr are allied with humans but there are many of those who are still openly against the peace treaty. Majority of them would probably rather start a war than to accept the presence of humans in their territory.

#12 Aethgar

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:48 PM

One question I think ought to be asked is how legitimacy works in Tyrria. Our world's royals were pretty profligate with taking lovers, mistresses.. would a baseborn child of royal blood be able to fulfill that prophecy or retake Ascalon, I wonder?

#13 Red J

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:22 PM

That makes me wonder, what if Rurik was really a father of Gwen? We don't know much about her father, apart from him dying when she was 6, though it would not be first time something was retconned in Guild Wars lore.

Plus, it would explain why ANet stressed him being descendant of her. He is the only one of the Destiny's Edge we know who has blood ties to some of the heroes from original Guild Wars.

#14 Gmr Leon

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:28 PM

Aethgar, considering the Krytan populace didn't seem to have too much trouble accepting Salma's legitimacy, I don't think the Ascalonians would have much problem with rallying behind an illegitimate child of the old royalty. Whether or not that would play a role in the prophecy's fulfillment though, that's a trickier question.

I don't think it would make a big difference, as I think it mostly centers around humans reclaiming the territory. I wouldn't be surprised if so long as it was a human getting to Adelbern's ghost with Sohothin, that that would be enough. I realize the belief surrounding the matter differs on this point, but often the beliefs are disproved by the actual events that transpire.

#15 draxynnic

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:16 AM

Well, there's probably a certain element that if someone manages to dispel the ghosts and achieve a resettlement of Ascalon, that person would get hailed as king regardless...

Gwen's parenthood is known, I think - we don't get a name for the father (who died before the Searing) but Gwen is legitimate rather than a potential royal byblow. Keiran's parenthood, however, is a blank slate.
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#16 The Greyhawk

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:43 AM

As is 98% of the NPCs in GW1.

#17 Ramei Arashi

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:47 AM

Adelbern wasn't actually born into royalty, Duke Baradin was the next in line for the throne. But the people of Ascalon made Adelbern king and the duke chose to support him.

As for Gwen, we don't know her family name. I'd have thought it would have been mentioned in the wedding but it wasn't.

#18 draxynnic

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:24 AM

The Greyhawk said:

As is 98% of the NPCs in GW1.
True, but 98% of the NPCs in GW1 don't have descendants playing an important role in the GW2 plotline.
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#19 shadavenger

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:53 AM

Didn't Rurik have a significant other in preserving, she could have escaped with him to krypta...there is no evidence to show that she died and who knows, they could have children together.

----------

Red J said:

The thing I don't like is that thanks to the whole 'oh gosh Dragons we must be friends now!' kind of storyline, there is zero chance the kingdom of Ascalon will ever be restored. Even if a legitimate heir to the Ascalonian throne showed up, now that we are allowed to play as the Charr, the only thing he could possibly rule is Ebonhawke. Armed conflict is pretty much out of question.

Ebonhawke on the map looks like a gateway to the crystal desert, so there is space for expansion?

#20 T-D-C

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:56 AM

shadavenger said:

Didn't Rurik have a significant other in preserving, she could have escaped with him to krypta...there is no evidence to show that she died and who knows, they could have children together.

Her name was Althea and yeah she died.......
http://wiki.guildwar.../Althea's_Ashes

#21 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

Alongside the fact that Althea was killed, the relationship between her and Rurik seemed like it wasn't yet at the stage of "significant other" but still at the "flirting with each other still" phase of a relationship. At least to me (though I think that they were to be married - until the Searing, at least).

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#22 Magnus

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:14 AM

Konig Des Todes said:

Alongside the fact that Althea was killed, the relationship between her and Rurik seemed like it wasn't yet at the stage of "significant other" but still at the "flirting with each other still" phase of a relationship. At least to me (though I think that they were to be married - until the Searing, at least).

To be fair, that was probably the greatest kindness the Charr could have done for poor Althea. I mean, really, being married to Rurik? If you told him to squish a spider, he'd probably run into a nest of them, die, and dump aggro on you.

But in all seriousness, rarely is there ever only one direct line for nobility (and royals in particular). Lines go extinct, and branches from other sides move in to take over, different royal houses vying for dominance over a game spanning centuries. I'm certain there's at least some that might have Ascalonian royal blood in them, particularly considering how prodigious Doric appears to have been.

#23 Dime_407

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:32 PM

I've already mentioned in another thread that the fact Gwen has a family crest means she's likely of some lesser Ascalon nobility. How much of a claim that nobility gives her to the throne, and by association Logan, remains to be seen.

Ultimately the answer will come from the volume of King Adelbern's voice when he starts making a fuss about it in Guild Wars Beyound once we return to Ascalon for the return of the Ebon Vanguard. If we can only hear him from Kryta then he's just being paranoid as proven repeatedly. If we can hear him from Rata Sum than the paranoia might have foundation but not justification. If we can hear him from Cantha... well there is a reason the Foefire didn't turn the humans of Ebon Hawk to ghost right on the spot like it did any other living humans in Ascalon.

#24 Magnus

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:20 PM

Dime_407 said:

I've already mentioned in another thread that the fact Gwen has a family crest means she's likely of some lesser Ascalon nobility. How much of a claim that nobility gives her to the throne, and by association Logan, remains to be seen.

Ultimately the answer will come from the volume of King Adelbern's voice when he starts making a fuss about it in Guild Wars Beyound once we return to Ascalon for the return of the Ebon Vanguard. If we can only hear him from Kryta then he's just being paranoid as proven repeatedly. If we can hear him from Rata Sum than the paranoia might have foundation but not justification. If we can hear him from Cantha... well there is a reason the Foefire didn't turn the humans of Ebon Hawk to ghost right on the spot like it did any other living humans in Ascalon.

Well... the family crest isn't entirely conclusive. In German heraldry, you can find plenty of 'Burgher arms', and other crests used by the common folk. Anathema in Britain, of course, but well-accepted in Germany. In addition, clergy were often given their own coats of arms, so there's another possible avenue.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Burgher_arms

#25 shadavenger

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:28 PM

T-D-C said:

Her name was Althea and yeah she died.......
http://wiki.guildwar.../Althea's_Ashes

Oh yeah, it's been a while. Thanks for the info.

But who's to say he didn't marry another woman before Krypta migration.

Edited by shadavenger, 16 April 2012 - 03:30 PM.


#26 Tinkerer

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:53 PM

Did Cynn and Mhenlo have a child? Because I was under the impression Cynn was infact royalty/nobility? So surely is Cynn had a child, her bloodline still holds nobility?

Ignore this, I misread the topic title. Sorry! :)

#27 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:36 PM

shadavenger said:

But who's to say he didn't marry another woman before Krypta migration.
Besides the fact that I doubt there was enough time, I think such would have been known among the people.

Tinkerer said:

Did Cynn and Mhenlo have a child? Because I was  under the impression Cynn was infact royalty/nobility? So surely is Cynn  had a child, her bloodline still holds nobility?
Don't know if  they had a child (hasn't happened yet in GW1 at least), but she was  indeed born from a noble family within Surmia - but not royal.

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#28 shadavenger

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:44 PM

Konig Des Todes said:

Besides the fact that I doubt there was enough time, I think such would have been known among the people.

I would assume there would be enough time. Look at Gwen, she was just a kid in presearing and she was much older postsearing so I'm assuming at least several years have passed given him enough time for marriage and kids. It's a plausible scenario.

#29 Opiliones

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:08 PM

shadavenger said:

I would assume there would be enough time. Look at Gwen, she was just a kid in presearing and she was much older postsearing so I'm assuming at least several years have passed given him enough time for marriage and kids. It's a plausible scenario.

Gwen was a charr prisoner for 7 years. And Rurik died about two years after the Searing.

#30 shadavenger

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

Opiliones said:

Gwen was a charr prisoner for 7 years. And Rurik died about two years after the Searing.

I know that. My point is the time between Althea's death and Rurik's death is several years which gives him enough time to get married and have kid(s).