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#1 blakdoxa

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:26 AM

Sure some of you guys have seen me harp about this one.

Signet of Mercy (current)--cooldown 240 seconds

Passive: Improves healing.
Active: Revive a nearby ally.

Something needs to change about this skill. It really needs help.
Take a look at the info below V
Spoiler

I think they should go ahead and make Signet of Mercy an elite skill and give it a buff.
That way, it will be worth the cooldown and not look so gimped compared to the other revival skills.

What do you guys think? Should it stay like it is or should it change?
Your reasoning is greatly appreciated.

#2 mjpalmer

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:15 AM

both the guardian and necromancer revivals seem useless to me with their 240 CD especially when some of the other ones have blatantly better effects, like the mage being able to revive 3 people at once.

effect wise though it doesn't seem weak to me, more healing as a passive? sounds great for a support guardian.

even with the CD, i wouldn't feel its so weak if the bonus to healing is significant enough.

#3 blakdoxa

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

mjpalmer said:

both the guardian and necromancer revivals seem useless to me with their 240 CD especially when some of the other ones have blatantly better effects, like the mage being able to revive 3 people at once.

effect wise though it doesn't seem weak to me, more healing as a passive? sounds great for a support guardian.

even with the CD, i wouldn't feel its so weak if the bonus to healing is significant enough.

I'd say necromancer's is still better. Gains a plus over SofM due to the life force generation for Death Shroud. It's significant in it's own with DS being an extra health bar, thus increase your survivability.
The active is also better as it revives nearby allies, rather than SofM which just revives an ally.

The outgoing heal effect of SofM (giving regeneration, resolve or healing breeze) is likely to be minimal, as ANet themselves have said that outgoing heals will never be a replacement for your self-heal.

So I don't see the significance of SofM, at all... :(

#4 Aodan

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:47 AM

I agree, ours is the most lack luster for such a support oriented Profession.

But really, the Ele and Warrior are the only ones, I see worth having. Warriors is basically a reset button.

#5 Scribbles

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:56 AM

It is kind of underwhelming, but perhaps on purpose? Perhaps they didn't want to put all the best support tools in one class?

I don't know. It could really use a big cooldown reduction, though.


The elementalist one is awesome because it is in effect 4 different skills that share a cooldown.

Edited by Scribbles, 05 April 2012 - 07:11 AM.


#6 ZeroTorrent

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:28 AM

Scribbles said:

It is kind of underwhelming, but perhaps on purpose? Perhaps they didn't want to put all the best support tools in one class?

I don't know. It could really use a big cooldown reduction, though.


The elementalist one is awesome because it is in effect 4 different skills that share a cooldown.

Please don't try to justify a useless skill. A.net will most likely change lots of skills for the Guardian in the near future.

#7 Scribbles

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:41 AM

Jeah, it does seem like a placeholder skill at the moment.

#8 KirbyGotenksabsorbed

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:19 AM

It's usefulness is unknown since the healing bonus is unknown, and it's very likely that its revival effect will change in the future.

I'd hate it if it became an elite. I feel its effects would be underwhelming (not to mention boring) for an elite skill, even if it did get an improved revive. I mean, would you choose between Tome of Courage or a good revival skill?

#9 Bariusdrop

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:04 PM

The healing bonus is also largely dependent on how it works. Does it only work for my healing skiill? Does it also work when I heal based on trait abilities? Does it apply to regeneration buffs I give to allies and myself? Does it affect my resolve? All of these factors change how useful the passive is. Furthermore, we don't even know if it is static and have to keep in mind it changes how useful it is based on how many skills you have that heal. (Merciful Intervention, Healing Breeze, Tome of Courage, etc.). If it had a static effect it could potentially greatly benefit regeneration on a per-tick basis, but as a percentage would favor larger, more direct heals, like healing breeze. So, in short, the passive is really anyone's bet at this point.

On too the active. Simply put, it is horrifingly bad in the state that we have it. You get to instantly revive someone once every four minutes. Most elite skills have shorter cooldowns than this, and with every class being able to pick up a defeated character at the cost of a couple of seconds, it becomes even worse. The fact that most other professions have a way to revive multiple people instantly on shorter or equal cooldown is also a bit silly. Other professions should be able to revive people via skills instantly, and they should be as powerful as the Guardian, but the fact that the active is worse then most others, and on a CD longer then most elite skills means that 9/10 times this skill will stay on passive while equipped, and the guardian will most often be reluctant to even use the skill rather then walk over and help the person up because you lose the passive for so long.

It needs work, I look forward to seeing what Anet will do with it.

That all said, as a vet healer who gets tired of rezz duty (as it forces you to get to know the bad half of your group all too well), I do like to see revive skills that are slightly more useful on other professions besides the guardian, so as to help guide people away from seeing him as a support or go home profession (best heals, best boons, and best combat revives). As an offensive guardian you can supply good boons through virtues and decent heals by just equipping healing breeze, the rest is gravy, helping to stop evil players from pigeonholing. Huzzah!

Sorry for the digression, hope this helps.

#10 blakdoxa

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:40 PM

Bariusdrop said:

The healing bonus is also largely dependent on how it works. Does it only work for my healing skiill? Does it also work when I heal based on trait abilities? Does it apply to regeneration buffs I give to allies and myself? Does it affect my resolve? All of these factors change how useful the passive is. Furthermore, we don't even know if it is static and have to keep in mind it changes how useful it is based on how many skills you have that heal. (Merciful Intervention, Healing Breeze, Tome of Courage, etc.). If it had a static effect it could potentially greatly benefit regeneration on a per-tick basis, but as a percentage would favor larger, more direct heals, like healing breeze. So, in short, the passive is really anyone's bet at this point.

On too the active. Simply put, it is horrifingly bad in the state that we have it. You get to instantly revive someone once every four minutes. Most elite skills have shorter cooldowns than this, and with every class being able to pick up a defeated character at the cost of a couple of seconds, it becomes even worse. The fact that most other professions have a way to revive multiple people instantly on shorter or equal cooldown is also a bit silly. Other professions should be able to revive people via skills instantly, and they should be as powerful as the Guardian, but the fact that the active is worse then most others, and on a CD longer then most elite skills means that 9/10 times this skill will stay on passive while equipped, and the guardian will most often be reluctant to even use the skill rather then walk over and help the person up because you lose the passive for so long.

It needs work, I look forward to seeing what Anet will do with it.

That all said, as a vet healer who gets tired of rezz duty (as it forces you to get to know the bad half of your group all too well), I do like to see revive skills that are slightly more useful on other professions besides the guardian, so as to help guide people away from seeing him as a support or go home profession (best heals, best boons, and best combat revives). As an offensive guardian you can supply good boons through virtues and decent heals by just equipping healing breeze, the rest is gravy, helping to stop evil players from pigeonholing. Huzzah!

Sorry for the digression, hope this helps.

Healing or the Compassion attribute affects outgoing heals. So your regeneration, healing skill, resolve, and any other type of healing.
Just know that it increases your healing but we don't know by how much.

ANet said:

Compassion: Improves all outgoing heals that your character does, including self heals.

http://www.arena.net...-and-attributes

And don't worry, I understand you mean there. :)

#11 Tevesh

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

It has a passive component. Obviously the active one is weaker than ele/warrior skills, which both have no passive component.

#12 blakdoxa

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

Tevesh said:

It has a passive component. Obviously the active one is weaker than ele/warrior skills, which both have no passive component.

The healing passive is only really good for your self-heal as I would not want to have something like a support/healing type of Guardian and SofM be some kind of staple utility.
To avoid that possibility I believe that even the signet's passive will be weak.

Looking at Signet of Undeath it generates 3% life force every 3 seconds.
That's absolute spectacular for life force generation though it probably works like adrenaline going back down when out of combat.

#13 Bariusdrop

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:57 PM

Tevesh said:

It has a passive component. Obviously the active one is weaker than ele/warrior skills, which both have no passive component.

Right, but once used you no longer have the passive component for four minutes. So, if used even semi-frequently it will be rare that the passive will be up, or the active will not ever be used in order to keep the passive up. It seems ultimately really up in the air. I get the impression both the active and passive will be gimped in order to compensate for each other, and that worries me. Many signets have a good side on one, and then a decent on the other, and the 'blackout' time during cooldown is the price you pay, since these skills often have nearly double the cooldown of normal skills that do roughly the same thing.

To blakdoka: I disagree with you, considering the guardian can perpetually put out regeneration with proper traits, adding a passive heal to that (along with things like aegis shatters for heals) and the occasional protection can be one person generating alot of healing that is all boostable by said passive. Though you are right, I also worry that if buffed it could potentially become a staple for all guardians, which is troubling.

#14 KelvinKole

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:47 PM

Am I not seeing something, or doesn't SofM have a 90 second cooldown?

Nevertheless, I think it could still use some attention. Depending on how strong that healing buff is, I don't really see myself sacrificing the passive for 90 seconds to revive one person who could be revived by any number of other means. I'd prefer a longer cooldown, perhaps to 180 seconds (if it is currently 90) and a multiple revive (3 people max).

I do think a lot is still subject to change with the Guardian though, more so than most other classes to me. I just don't think anet has realized their vision for the guardian yet. In its last instance the guardian could spec for damage or defense equally well, the problem was that the core feature, virtues, felt secondary. It seems in reworking the guardian a bit to revolve more around his virtues they forced it into a defensive role...something I think will get fixed.

Edited by KelvinKole, 05 April 2012 - 04:55 PM.


#15 blakdoxa

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:08 PM

KelvinKole said:

Am I not seeing something, or doesn't SofM have a 90 second cooldown?

Nevertheless, I think it could still use some attention. Depending on how strong that healing buff is, I don't really see myself sacrificing the passive for 90 seconds to revive one person who could be revived by any number of other means. I'd prefer a longer cooldown, perhaps to 180 seconds (if it is currently 90) and a multiple revive (3 people max).

I do think a lot is still subject to change with the Guardian though, more so than most other classes to me. I just don't think anet has realized their vision for the guardian yet. In its last instance the guardian could spec for damage or defense equally well, the problem was that the core feature, virtues, felt secondary. It seems in reworking the guardian a bit to revolve more around his virtues they forced it into a defensive role...something I think will get fixed.

That was the cooldown before the last beta. As of now it is 240 seconds and there could be a chance that the Guardian class as a whole is being redone. :eek:

#16 ZeroTorrent

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

blakdoxa said:

That was the cooldown before the last beta. As of now it is 240 seconds and there could be a chance that the Guardian class as a whole is being redone. :eek:

ooh, I hope so :)

As they are now they fall flat and the only ones who seems to like them are those who wants to stay back and use healing breeze every few mins on their friends....

#17 Diogo Silva

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

KelvinKole said:

I do think a lot is still subject to change with the Guardian though, more so than most other classes to me. I just don't think anet has realized their vision for the guardian yet.
I agree. I also feel that designing the Guardian might be a bit slippery. The Guardian appeals to a lot of different tastes, not just to those players who want a sucessor to Monk. The last beta's Guardian felt to close to a "dedicated healer" without being one. Almost everything about the guardians seems toned down in favor of defense. I think better defense should be achieved with traits, not naturally. Let's have the Guardians start at a more neutral point, like other professions. But then some of you would say, "but he is called the Guardian! Of course it must revolve around defense"!

Is the Guardian about defense? Or is the Guardian about support? There's a difference here, because support is not restricted to defense, and defense is not restricted to support. The Guardian sometimes feels restricted to both (note that I'm not saying they can't do anything else), and any alternative playstyle feels more like a strict exception to break the pace, than something with potential to be build around (there's not much mobility, there's not much range, there's not much offense unless traited, theres not much X and Y unless traited... in other words, you get a very specific style by making specific configurations, and you only have a lot of freedom for building around defense).

In my opinion, the best designed stuff for the Guardian so far is its weapons. Although I expressed my doubts about the current Staff and Scepter, overall the Guardian's weapon skills feel diverse enough, with plenty of different playstyles that can be attractive to a lot of players, that range from Warrior fans, to mage-knight fans, paladin fans, monk fans, and even others; and at the same time they feel very unified. But most of the current traits, the utilities, the virtues and the elites seem to restrict the Guardian way too much.

Edited by Diogo Silva, 05 April 2012 - 07:33 PM.


#18 ZCKS

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:08 PM

ZeroTorrent said:

A.net will most likely change lots of skills for the Guardian in the near future.

Hopefully this is true for a heck of allot more then just  signet of mercy.

Allot of things could use changes at the moment ranging from the spirit weapons AI & movement speed, to the major/minor traits & trait lines (they lack a focus & are a bit of a clusterf#ck), to how a few of the talent abilities work.

On topic, as for how they could change signet of mercy. There are a decent number of options, they could make it an AOE revive or greatly lower the CD but keeping it a single revive.

#19 Alaroxr

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:04 PM

Diogo Silva said:

I agree. I also feel that designing the Guardian might be a bit slippery. The Guardian appeals to a lot of different tastes, not just to those players who want a sucessor to Monk. The last beta's Guardian felt to close to a "dedicated healer" without being one. Almost everything about the guardians seems toned down in favor of defense. I think better defense should be achieved with traits, not naturally. Let's have the Guardians start at a more neutral point, like other professions. But then some of you would say, "but he is called the Guardian! Of course it must revolve around defense"!

Is the Guardian about defense? Or is the Guardian about support? There's a difference here, because support is not restricted to defense, and defense is not restricted to support. The Guardian sometimes feels restricted to both (note that I'm not saying they can't do anything else), and any alternative playstyle feels more like a strict exception to break the pace, than something with potential to be build around (there's not much mobility, there's not much range, there's not much offense unless traited, theres not much X and Y unless traited... in other words, you get a very specific style by making specific configurations, and you only have a lot of freedom for building around defense).

In my opinion, the best designed stuff for the Guardian so far is its weapons. Although I expressed my doubts about the current Staff and Scepter, overall the Guardian's weapon skills feel diverse enough, with plenty of different playstyles that can be attractive to a lot of players, that range from Warrior fans, to mage-knight fans, paladin fans, monk fans, and even others; and at the same time they feel very unified. But most of the current traits, the utilities, the virtues and the elites seem to restrict the Guardian way too much.

My thoughts exactly.

#20 ZCKS

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:43 AM

Diogo Silva said:

I agree. I also feel that designing the Guardian might be a bit slippery. The Guardian appeals to a lot of different tastes, not just to those players who want a sucessor to Monk. The last beta's Guardian felt to close to a "dedicated healer" without being one. Almost everything about the guardians seems toned down in favor of defense. I think better defense should be achieved with traits, not naturally. Let's have the Guardians start at a more neutral point, like other professions. But then some of you would say, "but he is called the Guardian! Of course it must revolve around defense"!

Is the Guardian about defense? Or is the Guardian about support? There's a difference here, because support is not restricted to defense, and defense is not restricted to support. The Guardian sometimes feels restricted to both (note that I'm not saying they can't do anything else), and any alternative playstyle feels more like a strict exception to break the pace, than something with potential to be build around (there's not much mobility, there's not much range, there's not much offense unless traited, theres not much X and Y unless traited... in other words, you get a very specific style by making specific configurations, and you only have a lot of freedom for building around defense).

In my opinion, the best designed stuff for the Guardian so far is its weapons. Although I expressed my doubts about the current Staff and Scepter, overall the Guardian's weapon skills feel diverse enough, with plenty of different playstyles that can be attractive to a lot of players, that range from Warrior fans, to mage-knight fans, paladin fans, monk fans, and even others; and at the same time they feel very unified. But most of the current traits, the utilities, the virtues and the elites seem to restrict the Guardian way too much.


Very well said, I think you hit the nail on the head for how allot of us feel with our concerns.

That being said I really hope arena net goes in the direction they promised. That direction being the one you & a allot of us around here are hoping for because if they don't then the guardian may end up having sub par offensive potential & may never be wanted in groups to fill an offensive role.

#21 Ezra

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:33 AM

No, don't make it an elite skill!

Of this type of skills it is the worst, balance the reuse timer down and make the effect more worthwhile. The passive can stay the same but the active ability should have a secondary mechanic.


The Guardian has too much support right now and there's some sort of weird perception that Guardian support is soooo good that it must be spread across all abilities and utilities that the profession has.


The other professions have such better synergy and options with their utilities, weapons and traits right now. The Guardian is really a mess and it seems they don't know what to do with it.


You can create as much useful support right now with other professions yet they retain their access to damage and overall usefulness.

The Guardian has too much support that it's best role is to follow another class like a pet and provide buffs.


Guardian support abilities need to be consolidated better in the utilities and especially in the traits to reflect the same type of flexibility and power the other professions can access. Right now our weapons are spread out all over the place, give us clear paths to roles and setups...

Zeal - Sword, Greatsword (Direct Damage, Symbols)
Radiance - Hammer, Scepter, Torch (Conditions, Spirit Weapons)
Valour - Mace, Staff (Defence, Boons)
Honour - Shield, Focus (Healing)


Sure the Guardian can spec right now to be hard to kill and hold off two or three people for a bit, but that's it... Hold off, not defeat or drive back, the Guardian can just avoid dying in straight up combat for a bit longer than most.

Other professions can do the same thing through different mechanics, there's footage kicking about of a Thief distracting an entire group for 4 minutes by shadowstepping and stealthing around a point while he gets them to chase him. Well, that's also holding off multiple opponents! Just not toe to toe taking damage.

Edited by Ezra, 06 April 2012 - 04:47 AM.


#22 Lapin

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:44 AM

Ezra said:

The other professions have such better synergy and options with their utilities, weapons and traits right now. The Guardian is really a mess and it seems they don't know what to do with it.

I wouldn't quite call it a "mess."

The guardian can have as much synergy as any other class in my opinion, It's just about picking the right traits. For instance, see Guardian Spirit weapon builds. (weapon combo was irrelevant, see utilities and traits).

#23 Ezra

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:04 AM

Change the Bow for the Hammer (you already have plenty of condition removal).
Trait for 20% reduced Spirit Weapon cooldown as your entire build revolves around the Spirit Weapons whose cooldown timer only starts when they despawn giving your build significant downtime between fights.

#24 Aodan

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:09 AM

Lapin said:

I wouldn't quite call it a "mess."

The guardian can have as much synergy as any other class in my opinion, It's just about picking the right traits. For instance, see Guardian Spirit weapon builds. (weapon combo was irrelevant, see utilities and traits).

It is a mess, and currently spirit weapons are not viable at all for lots of reasons, but leave that to a different thread.

If you look at most builds other then hard support, specs are all over the place. not to mention really right now the only utilities that really viable are some shouts, some damage, sanctuary.

#25 Calan

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:49 PM

blakdoxa said:

The healing passive is only really good for your self-heal as I would not want to have something like a support/healing type of Guardian and SofM be some kind of staple utility.
To avoid that possibility I believe that even the signet's passive will be weak.

Since signet of mercy affects all healing and we've no end of abilities that include those effects, why do you say it's only really good for our self-heal?

Are you saying you don't want to play a support/healing type guardian ergo that's the only thing it's good for?

#26 Slazapuss

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:24 AM

Diogo Silva said:

I agree. I also feel that designing the Guardian might be a bit slippery. The Guardian appeals to a lot of different tastes, not just to those players who want a sucessor to Monk. The last beta's Guardian felt to close to a "dedicated healer" without being one. Almost everything about the guardians seems toned down in favor of defense. I think better defense should be achieved with traits, not naturally. Let's have the Guardians start at a more neutral point, like other professions. But then some of you would say, "but he is called the Guardian! Of course it must revolve around defense"!

Is the Guardian about defense? Or is the Guardian about support? There's a difference here, because support is not restricted to defense, and defense is not restricted to support. The Guardian sometimes feels restricted to both (note that I'm not saying they can't do anything else), and any alternative playstyle feels more like a strict exception to break the pace, than something with potential to be build around (there's not much mobility, there's not much range, there's not much offense unless traited, theres not much X and Y unless traited... in other words, you get a very specific style by making specific configurations, and you only have a lot of freedom for building around defense).

In my opinion, the best designed stuff for the Guardian so far is its weapons. Although I expressed my doubts about the current Staff and Scepter, overall the Guardian's weapon skills feel diverse enough, with plenty of different playstyles that can be attractive to a lot of players, that range from Warrior fans, to mage-knight fans, paladin fans, monk fans, and even others; and at the same time they feel very unified. But most of the current traits, the utilities, the virtues and the elites seem to restrict the Guardian way too much.

Thank you so much for posting that. I really really wana play a guardian but he REALLY needs to be reworked. I feel like in order to play guardian you have to accept the fact that you're gona be a defensive, supportive fighter, which is lame cuz i was under the impression every profession can do anything. The traits are a mess and seem to be just randomly placed. The Guardian's range is severely limited. I mean what am i gona do in wvw? Run and get supplies? I dont wana be restricted to that. Also the virtues are imo really boring. Sure the guardian can be focused on support but let the player choose to focus on support. I just really hope Anet realizes this and changes it for the best or ima just go with an elementalist.

#27 ZCKS

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:18 AM

Frankly given the fact it only revives one ally I think they should greatly reduce the cool down, 45-60 seconds would be good.

Or they could make it revive all allies around the guardian & more or less leave the CD the same.

(also where as signets are concerned, I'm really hoping they give guardians a major talent like the ones necromancers used to have that gave you the passive effects of your signets even when they are on CD)

#28 blakdoxa

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:41 AM

Calan said:

Since signet of mercy affects all healing and we've no end of abilities that include those effects, why do you say it's only really good for our self-heal?

Are you saying you don't want to play a support/healing type guardian ergo that's the only thing it's good for?

Yes as that being not how I would want to play Guardian.
Player self-heals heal significantly more than the "other options." The "other options" are only meant to cover for some damage your allies received.

I don't know how much compassion you'd have to scrape up for any outgoing heals to allies to "mean something" but cramming your stats, weapons and utilities to do so isn't anything I would try nor would I recommend.

I wouldn't want to be just running around tossing VofR, regeneration or Healing Breeze. Plus there's imbalance with the skill itself with the passive being significantly more useful than a one-man revive.
It would be better to grab a full set of Rune of Mercy and do normal rallies.

#29 Alaroxr

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:12 AM

Signet of Mercy heals multiple allies. Go look at the German pvp video for the Guardian and insert the text into a translator. It says allies, not ally.

/thread

#30 blakdoxa

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:25 AM

Alaroxr said:

Signet of Mercy heals multiple allies. Go look at the German pvp video for the Guardian and insert the text into a translator. It says allies, not ally.

/thread

So it's function has been completely changed.

Quite the rescue this signet needed.

Just make sure that's really what it does now. :x




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