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The Nightmare Court--A step too far?


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#-29 Weindrasi

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:42 PM

The Sylvari of the Nightmare Court seem to be taking their rejection of the Ventari Tablet way beyond logic. Cadeyrn, the Sylvari who started the court, does make some valid/logical points in his story. For example, in wanting to kill Krait children so they don't grow up to hurt more Sylvari. It's harsh, but he's right--it's very logical. No one really gave him the greatest explanation as to why he should not kill them, except "The Tablet said so". So of course Cadeyrn would get frusterated and disillusioned by it.

I can see a lot of Sylvari turning away from the Ventari Tablet for similar reasons to Cadeyrn--and becoming harsher, less merciful people because of it. However, the Nightmare Court is taking that concept way, way, way too far. It seems weird that a Sylvari would go from "I disagree with x and y" to "I'm going to torture and maim everybody to prove a point".

I like the Nightmare Court's idea, but it seems like the Sylvari are kind of "black and white" because of it--either they agree with the Ventari Tablet or they are Nightmare Court. It seems like there would be many more Sylvari somewhere in between the two ideals--like Caithe.

Edited by Weindrasi, 07 April 2012 - 10:44 PM.


#-28 Hirsty

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:44 PM

True, but it's only like the the good and bad side of the charr, etc.

I know what you mean, but personally, I would love to have my sylvari part of the court

#-27 Arioch

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

they are creatures of conviction and passion, they know little restraint in these things. They are not balanced.

So, since they by nature deal with new experiences, they do not do things half arsed. If the teachings of the ventari tablet are bad. then they will remove it. Without the tablet they don't have the same moral underpinnings as humans which would suggest that it's really that bad a thing.

At least that's my theory.

#-26 Brynjar

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:40 PM

Basically, the Nightmare Court seems to have gone from "the Tablet isn't absolute" to "we should do the exact opposite of what it says!".  Which, considering the sylvari are basically born as adults who were home-schooled their entire lives, isn't too unrealistic. They likely don't know much restraint.

Of course, they aren't just torturing people for the fun of it, either. There is a logic to their madness; by torturing someone, they remember torturing them. Those memories are added to the Dream. Heck, if they torture a fellow sylvari, they get two sets of memories added to the Dream. Their end goal is to add enough pain and suffering to the Dream that every 'newborn' sylvari is already a Nightmare Courtist from the beginning, and there's no question of following things like morals and the Tablet - just doing what needs to be done.

#-25 Razuuli

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:09 AM

Weindrasi said:

I like the Nightmare Court's idea, but it seems like the Sylvari are kind of "black and white" because of it--either they agree with the Ventari Tablet or they are Nightmare Court. It seems like there would be many more Sylvari somewhere in between the two ideals--like Caithe.

Like Brynjar said, the Nightmare Court wants to fill the Dream with enough 'evil' memories that it offsets the unbalanced (in their view) Tablet-influenced thoughts that the Dream currently has. By subjecting other Sylvari to horrors as well as themselves, they increase the potency of the experiences sent to the Dream.

It's another case of 'the ends justify the means', in the Nightmare Court's view.

#-24 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:16 AM

Weindrasi said:

I like the Nightmare Court's idea, but it seems like the Sylvari are kind of "black and white" because of it--either they agree with the Ventari Tablet or they are Nightmare Court. It seems like there would be many more Sylvari somewhere in between the two ideals--like Caithe.
You're making a huge assumption.

That assumption being that there's only 2 groups of Sylvari.

Consider this: the devs haven't told us about all that exists (even if just the names of groups). In turn, there may be another group of sylvari - one who reject the tablet while also rejecting the Nightmare Court.

Razuuli said:

Like Brynjar said, the Nightmare Court wants to  fill the Dream with enough 'evil' memories that it offsets the  unbalanced (in their view) Tablet-influenced thoughts that the Dream  currently has. By subjecting other Sylvari to horrors as well as  themselves, they increase the potency of the experiences sent to the  Dream.

It's another case of 'the ends justify the means', in the Nightmare  Court's view.
The way you say it is like they want to balance it  out, when they're just trying to tip the scale from 100% right, to 100%  left.

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#-23 Magnus

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:37 AM

In truth, the problem is that the Nightmare Court have made one massive overstep in terms of rational thought.

The Tablet has flaws, this is true. It creates a permanent 'overclass' of Firstborn, a complete lack of a case for the concept of mercy and temperance, and tends to make certain sections of the Sylvari hidebound and prideful (see: Caithe's statement that 'you are either Firstborn, or you are just Sylvari'). In addition, it's applying foreign morality, as it is the creation of a Centaur, not a Sylvari; the Tablet is, one could argue, a case of cultural imperialism, preventing the Sylvari from developing their own culture and ideas.

The problem comes, that in the Nightmare Court's attempt to remove the Tablet from society, they have become defined by it. By being 'everything not-X', they have inherently defined themselves by the tablet. For instance, if the Tablet is pacifist, the NC are warlike. But suppose that, without the intervention of the Tablet, the Sylvari would have developed to be a little bit of both? That a 'native' Sylvari would have elements of both Nightmare Court and Tablet, a synthesis of the differing polar opposites.

In essence, they are defining themselves by a Tablet which, in their view, should have no influence whatsoever. If they really wished to find out what a 'true Sylvari' would be, or what society it creates, they would have to take un-influenced Sylvari and drop them in the middle of the wilderness, with no Tablet and no NC. So, in the end, the NC have legitimate criticisms, but their implementation is completely off-base.

#-22 Babe

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:46 AM

There was logic behind not killing the Krait children: Give them a chance to grow differently from their parents.

How would you feel if your dad was a criminal, and as a child we would jail you alongside him because we make the assumption that you, too, will become a criminal? You're taking away krait self-determination based on a hunch.

Cadeyrn just didn't like that the response didn't fit his ideological framework, and thus pulled an old trick out of the rhetorical book: call a response you don't like illogical even if it had logic behind it. Cadeyrn didn't want an explanation -- he wanted validation. He always has, from wanting to be recognized as the first of his batch, to being the Pale Tree's favorite. He's your plant-like Ayn Rand, a special little snowflake resentful of not being elevated above the other obviously inferior sheeple.

The Nightmare Court is basically about not caring about others. It's a purely selfish position that doesn't want to be held accountable for the repercussions that stem from the more negative extremes of such selfishness.

#-21 Brynjar

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:42 AM

Magnus said:

The Tablet has flaws, this is true. It creates a permanent 'overclass' of Firstborn, a complete lack of a case for the concept of mercy and temperance, and tends to make certain sections of the Sylvari hidebound and prideful (see: Caithe's statement that 'you are either Firstborn, or you are just Sylvari').

Wait, what does any of that have to do with the Tablet?

All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.
The only lasting peace is the peace within your soul.
Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes stronger roots.
Act with wisdom, but act.
From the smallest blade of grass to the largest mountain, where life goes, so too should you.


That sounds pretty full of mercy, peace, determination, and other good things to me. I don't see anything about overclasses, Firstborn, lack of mercy and temperature, or pride.

#-20 Magnus

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:12 AM

Brynjar said:

Wait, what does any of that have to do with the Tablet?

All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.
The only lasting peace is the peace within your soul.
Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes stronger roots.
Act with wisdom, but act.
From the smallest blade of grass to the largest mountain, where life goes, so too should you.


That sounds pretty full of mercy, peace, determination, and other good things to me. I don't see anything about overclasses, Firstborn, lack of mercy and temperature, or pride.

Ah, I see. Well, the problem becomes in the dogma that arises around 'scripture' (which, really, is the case with any sort of religion or philosophy). To put it into perspective, the Bible lays out certain things, but the idea of a structured church, a papacy, bishops, priests, et cetera, is the creation of the practitioners.

So too, is the Firstborn's supremacy a creation of the practitioners: Specifically, the Pale Tree. So perhaps I was being general when I said that; change 'the Tablet' to 'the practitioners of the Tablet', and we come to the correct statement.

Though, one other thing to point out, we don't rightly know all of the Tablet's tenets, considering those are just a small sub-section.

#-19 draxynnic

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:46 AM

Well, there's only two more tenets to come, but from what we know of Ventari, and the unlikelihood that he predicted that the sylvari would be born, I doubt there's anything in there that enshrines the Firstborn as an upperclass.

I'm also not convinced they are a permanent upperclass. It's been mentioned that Caithe regrets her words, and in the context her intent could simply have been to point out that compared to the seven-year-gap between the first and second generation, there's nothing special about being the first of the second generation. Beyond that there may be no entrenched difference - the sylvari could well be a meritocracy, it's just that the Firstborn have had that much longer to demonstrate their merit.
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#-18 Magnus

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 05:44 AM

draxynnic said:

Well, there's only two more tenets to come, but from what we know of Ventari, and the unlikelihood that he predicted that the sylvari would be born, I doubt there's anything in there that enshrines the Firstborn as an upperclass.

I'm also not convinced they are a permanent upperclass. It's been mentioned that Caithe regrets her words, and in the context her intent could simply have been to point out that compared to the seven-year-gap between the first and second generation, there's nothing special about being the first of the second generation. Beyond that there may be no entrenched difference - the sylvari could well be a meritocracy, it's just that the Firstborn have had that much longer to demonstrate their merit.

The problem with the argument that the Firstborn are there on merit, is shown by the situation with the krait. As mentioned above, there is a logical and rational reason to want to kill them; one cannot question the utility of it. The problem is that it is an ethical and moral decision, and the Firstborn that was with Cadeyrn did not offer elaboration, merely recitation.

Again, the problem becomes in that (if I remember correctly), the Pale Tree shows an obvious preference to the Firstborne. For example, only speaking to the Firstborn during the decision on whether to go to war on the Asura or not. And in truth, though Caithe may regret her words, the regret could (and it seems more likely to) come from being overly blunt. In essence, an excess of honesty. Caithe's words encapsulate the split in Sylvari society between Firstborn and 'everyone else'.

The merit argument also fails to hold weight, because as time progresses, it would seem rational that we see other Sylvari rise to positions of power, or as Luminaries. After all, the Firstborn only have 7 years of relative isolation, which as time goes on will become miniscule. For instance, at the time of GW2's launch, the Sylvari have been around for 23 years. Roughly 1/3rd longer than other Sylvari, it's true... but a short amount of time, considering how long Sylvari society will be around. When the Sylvari are, say, 50 years old, will 7 years really matter? Especially 7 years of learning things that every Sylvari will learn that came after them? The fact that Sylvari have 'inborn knowledge' rather diminishes the advantage that the Firstborn have, since all the knowledge they get goes back to the Tree.

In the end, I'm not here to make the NC's case for them; the point is, a case can be made against the Tablet/Tablet practitioners, the problem with the NC is that they define themselves by their opposition to the Tablet, and that definition inherently causes them to fail at being 'natural Sylvari'. They are limiting themselves based on 'it's in the tablet, thus we should not do that', which is still giving the Tablet an influence over Sylvari culture.

#-17 draxynnic

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:07 AM

Well, it's possible that as sylvari society evolves, we will see non-Firstborn arise to positions equivalent to the Luminaries. But at the moment, the Firstborn have the advantage of having lived for roughly 50% longer than any of the other sylvari. As the sylvari as a race ages, that benefit is going to dwindle over time and it may turn out that rank does settle into something that is achieved by natural ability as well as seniority. At the moment, though, the Firstborn having had that much lead-time over the others makes them hard to beat.

Also, the impression I've had is that at this point, the Nightmare Court has existed for at least half of sylvari history. This would mean that at the time of Cadeyrne's confrontation, the Firstborn would have been two, three, possibly four or five times Cadeyrne's age. Caithe's comment could be considered akin to a twenty-year-old human saying to a prebuscent child that being the oldest of the children doesn't mean you're an adult. It doesn't necessarily mean that the child will never reach the status of an adult.

The thing is, one of the things Cadeyrne was demanding was recognition for being the first of the second generation. Until his rebellion, though, there was no indication that he did anything to distinguish himself from the rest of his generation. The Firstborn certainly do have a bit of an unfair advantage in that when there's only seven of you, it's not hard to distinguish yourself, but that doesn't mean it will be impossible for anyone else to rise out of the crowd.

As for the fundamental flaw in the NC's argument being that they're still effectively defining themselves by the tablet - not only do I agree with that, but I think I was the one who originally pointed that out (albeit in a different thread). So no dispute there. :p
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#-16 Magnus

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:25 AM

draxynnic said:

Well, it's possible that as sylvari society evolves, we will see non-Firstborn arise to positions equivalent to the Luminaries. But at the moment, the Firstborn have the advantage of having lived for roughly 50% longer than any of the other sylvari. As the sylvari as a race ages, that benefit is going to dwindle over time and it may turn out that rank does settle into something that is achieved by natural ability as well as seniority. At the moment, though, the Firstborn having had that much lead-time over the others makes them hard to beat.

Also, the impression I've had is that at this point, the Nightmare Court has existed for at least half of sylvari history. This would mean that at the time of Cadeyrne's confrontation, the Firstborn would have been two, three, possibly four or five times Cadeyrne's age. Caithe's comment could be considered akin to a twenty-year-old human saying to a prebuscent child that being the oldest of the children doesn't mean you're an adult. It doesn't necessarily mean that the child will never reach the status of an adult.

The thing is, one of the things Cadeyrne was demanding was recognition for being the first of the second generation. Until his rebellion, though, there was no indication that he did anything to distinguish himself from the rest of his generation. The Firstborn certainly do have a bit of an unfair advantage in that when there's only seven of you, it's not hard to distinguish yourself, but that doesn't mean it will be impossible for anyone else to rise out of the crowd.

As for the fundamental flaw in the NC's argument being that they're still effectively defining themselves by the tablet - not only do I agree with that, but I think I was the one who originally pointed that out (albeit in a different thread). So no dispute there. :p

Well, one needs to ask just what the Firstborn did in those 7 years to earn their higher status. Consider that during that time they had to learn how to cook, how to talk, how to walk, what not to eat, things like that. They had a higher challenge to overcome. But Sylvari born after the Firstborn would have that knowledge inherently; in essence, they get a 'jump start' on the process. The Secondborn+other generations can do in 1 year, what the Firstborn took 7 to do, or something equivalent.

As to Cadeyrn's motivations... well, I'd argue that there's another aspect to it as well. The Pale Tree is, I'll be perfectly frank, a poor mother. The idea of 'family', is that one isn't supposed to play favourites... or things like sibling rivalries occur, not to mention being grossly unfair. After all, if your own Mother refuses to speak to you, and only talks to your siblings... well, you're going to have problems. Cadeyrn was not so much asserting that 'he knew best', he was asserting that he wanted answers. That he not become 'one of many', a recognition of individualism, which was brutally put down by Caithe, and we all know how that went. That they not be slaves to the imposed morality of a Centaur; that the Sylvari choose their own answers to major ethical questions, as the other Firstborn had only regurgitated the Tablet verbatim, rather than answering the question of "why?". The Krait, and the Asuran issue, shows this quite adequately.

As an aside, did you come to the same conclusion? I admit, I only just recently became interested in the Sylvari, so I've not been keeping up with their threads. Makes me feel dirty to want to play one of the salads, with their froofy... flowers, and sweet-scented things. Pah! Norn has no need of flowers. They are Norn.

#-15 SylvariCrazed

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 06:42 AM

since i can't be on the nightmare court i'm just going to make my Sylvari as cruel and shady as possible

````````

I don't see them as evil just as rebels

#-14 draxynnic

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:39 AM

Well, a few reasons for the current distinction come to mind:

First, the Firstborn are the ones that went out and got those experiences.

Second, some of the interviews and other sources have indicated that the knowledge from the Dream provides a bit of a head start, but is no substitute for actual experience. Later generations have benefited from what the firstborn learned, but the common analogy used is that it's like reading from a book - while the firstborn have had seven years of living in a dangerous world where there were only six other sylvari as allies and have the leadership experience of guiding the second generation to lay down the foundations of sylvari society.

However, there's nothing to say that that really translates into a permanent state of superiority to the Firstborn. Later generations might not be able to become "firstborn" per se, but it's possible over time that members of later generations that distinguish themselves sufficiently will rise to a similar level. At the time of the Nightmare Court's founding, though, the difference between generations was the difference between elders telling stories about their exploration of a unknown new world and the youngsters that have listened to the stories.

When it comes to the Pale Tree - in the Dream and Nightmare story, the Pale Tree did talk to Cadeyrne initially. It was when she realised that Cadeyrne was in no mood to listen and anything she said was just making him angrier that she stopped. When it comes to the rest... there's probably a limit to how much attention the Pale Tree can pay to any individual sylvari when there are thousands of them. The Firstborn - and possibly others that prove their worth - can then serve as intermediaries keeping the clamour for personal attention from the Pale Tree to a minimum.

When it comes to the asura... there was more than just quotation of the Tablet there. The krait, less so... but even the firstborn were still quite limited in their experience with dealing with others at that time. It would have been better for Niamh to have gone into more explanation, but while she was still seven years older than Cadeyrne, she still didn't have nearly the level of experience with interacting with others or thinking about the logical reasoning behind philosophy and morality that a human adult would.

Like most believable villains, there is a nugget of justification to Cadeyrne's position - the questions that he raised were worth asking. However, he demanded special recognition he had done nothing to deserve, and instead of laying out reasoned arguments in turn he lost his temper and resorted to atrocity in an attempt to force others to his point of view.

And to your aside: As I said, I'd come to the conclusion myself a while ago that if the Tablet represents a corruption of the sylvari spirit, the Nightmare Court is at least as much of a corruption, since in going against the tablet they're excising every part of their nature that IS in alignment with the tablet. For all we know, after all, the reason why the Tablet resonates so well with most sylvari could be because it is in close alignment with the 'natural' personality of the race.
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#-13 syrin

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:18 PM

Yah from the various reading I've done, not sure how much is accurate on Cadeyrn seemed like a spoiled child angry he wasn't his parents favorite. It always feels like he's throwing a tantrum, pay attention to me more then them or else.

#-12 Reflected Mirage

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:07 PM

The way I see it is they're not going completely against the tablet just for the sake of it or because they ALWAYS disagree with it, but because they're trying to free the Pale Tree from it and so they have to be extreme to do that. Once that is done they might very well become more moderate.

#-11 Tau

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:01 PM

I believe something was said about the fact that the Nightmare Court believe the true nature of the Pale Tree shoud be darker specifically because of the other plant-creatures (oakhearts, ibogas, reeds) from which the Pale Tree probably emerged.

#-10 The Greyhawk

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:52 AM

Reflected Mirage said:

The way I see it is they're not going completely against the tablet just for the sake of it or because they ALWAYS disagree with it, but because they're trying to free the Pale Tree from it and so they have to be extreme to do that. Once that is done they might very well become more moderate.

I have to say I rather doubt that. While the "freeing of the Tree and the sylvari of the Tablet" are the stated primary purpose of the Court, it is in many ways an excuse.  While I don't doubt that they are actually trying to effect the Dream and future sylvari, the members of the court do what they do because they actually enjoy the perversions. Look at the behavior of Faolain in EoD, especially the beginning when she and Caithe come across the village that had been ravaged by destroyers.

No, the members of the Court are honestly bad people.  What they do, the atrocities they are committing, cannot be rationalized in the sense that they are "rebels" or "non-conformists". They are evil.

Konig Des Todes said:

You're making a huge assumption.

That assumption being that there's only 2 groups of Sylvari.

Consider this: the devs haven't told us about all that exists (even if just the names of groups). In turn, there may be another group of sylvari - one who reject the tablet while also rejecting the Nightmare Court.

I have to say, Konig, that's a Huge MAYBE. We really haven't seen anything implying there's another faction amongst the sylvari like that.  The Cycles don't really seem to fit the concept of more factions within the context we are using here. Perhaps there are more skeptics that aren't psycho like the Court, but frankly until we see info about such things the current assumption of Court and Tablet making up the majority of the Sylvari is a reasonably safe assumption to make.

#-9 draxynnic

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:36 AM

To tell the truth, the extremism of the Court might actually be weakening their aims through having a polarising effect - to the other Sylvari, they serve as a natural object lesson as to the pitfalls of not following the Tablet. It could be that other sylvari that might otherwise be harbouring doubts have squashed those doubts (or, at least, stopped expressing them) for fear of succumbing to or being associated with the Nightmare.
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#-8 ShadowedSin

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:09 AM

Greyhawk Ree has repeatedly said that if people wish to create an RP character that is neither tablet nor nightmare that is is very plausible.

Just noting this because I asked her that question at the Lore Panel at PAX Prime 2011^^

And I would consider that a lore answer to the existence of possible third Sylvari factions or them possibly coming to exist.

#-7 The Greyhawk

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:03 PM

ShadowedSin said:

Greyhawk Ree has repeatedly said that if people wish to create an RP character that is neither tablet nor nightmare that is is very plausible.

Just noting this because I asked her that question at the Lore Panel at PAX Prime 2011^^

And I would consider that a lore answer to the existence of possible third Sylvari factions or them possibly coming to exist.

Well of course you can RP as that....there's not a bloody thing stopping you.  You can even RP as a member of the court, even though gameplay and personal story won't reflect this.
But we aren't talking about RPing, we are talking about how the story portrays the overall Sylvari race.  The story that's told primarily through NPCs and dynamic events, etc.  As such I find it a HUGE leap to consider this RPing statement to equate official Lore.

#-6 draxynnic

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:23 AM

I'd say Ree saying it was plausible shows that there at least isn't anything in the lore strongly against it. There may not be a lot, but I'd really be surprised if there aren't any sylvari following a middle ground.

The interesting thing would be how mainstream sylvari views them. Do they see them as sadly misled but accept them regardless because the blossom is brother to the weed? Or do they see them as barely a step away from being Nightmare Court themselves?
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#-5 Persona non Sequiter

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:18 AM

The Nightmare Court might be a self defeating organization if one thinks about it. Ventari was able to write his Tablet after a lifetime of warfare and suffering. The Sylvari don't have the experience to fully understand such things, so they can't fully appreciate the Tablet.

The Nightmare Court may kill themselves off by filling the dream with nightmares of conflict and suffering, since it will give the Tablet proper context; meaning no one would turn to their cause.

#-4 The Greyhawk

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:39 AM

Well the Court isn't really "killing itself off", though I don't doubt there might be some backstabbing and power struggles. The Courts victims are mostly other Sylvari that aren't members, as well members of other races. I do remember reading that the Court will commit atrocities against others races to better send their own dark memories into the Dream.

#-3 draxynnic

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:23 AM

I think PNS's point is that by demonstrating to the sylvari all the horror of war and all the other stuff that goes against Ventari's philosophy, they may actually be pushing future generations of sylvari into better realising why choosing other paths than war, torture and murder is important.

It's kinda like what happened in Vietnam when journalists were reporting all the horrors faithfully rather than having nothing to work with than the sanitised material given to them by the military leadership.
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#-2 Brynjar

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:08 AM

I think the Nightmare Court is aiming for BeingTortureMakesYouEvil. Basically, by infecting the Dream with memories of pain and suffering, and ultimately staining it with thoughts, you'll have sylvari who come into the world knowing nothing but that. It would be like locking a baby in the basement until he's a teenager and the only thing he's even seen besides the basement is every Saw movie, over and over and over again.

#-1 Timothy Paradox

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

GW2 is a story written by westerners. The West is obsessed about "good" and "evil" even though there is no such thing in nature. They created the holier-than-thou Sylvari and yet another strawman villain they could use to villify anyone who has the sense to see nature for what it really is: cruel.

#0 Valmir

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

Wrong. Sylvari aren't just some bunch of hippies's tree huggers. They know very well that nature is cruel. However, they believed that sentient races can overcome this simple state of nature and become something good. I'll take an example to avoïd the Godwin Point, and I hope thaht I won't chock muslim readers, it's absolutely not my intention.
Furthermore, evil and good exists -but not Evil and Good, yes-. Just an example : Merah who had killed peoples because of his fanaticism in my town (Toulouse, and Montauban, by the way) in March, what he had done is evil.On the other and, muslim who helped people, who are parts of charities, etc... their acts are good.

Even in oriental concepts, good and evil exists. The only difference with western interpretation is that separation between both is not also marked.

NC act with crualty, but also with an evil thirst of suffering and a will to corrupt the pale tree