[Muan]

It just occurred to me a few minutes ago, but, what if magic is the root of the problem here? I mean, Anet literally referred to the dragons once as "Magical Generators" and the breath which they use to corrupt both living and unliving things is referred to as "magical breath". Now that might just be a manner of speaking, but, remember, the dragons are the earliest known source of magic. And, as the dragons predate the Bloodstones, their magic may very well be the pure magic which was originally gifted to the races. Obviously, magic was not created by the gods but literally "gifted" somehow to the intelligent races of Tyria. And notice that it was Abaddon, the one who dealt out this magic, who ended up filled with corruption and taint. What if he simply was corrupted by the pure magic he dealt out? Perhaps Abaddon's taint and the corruption of the dragons are both caused by exposure to pure magic? Now, look at the GW timeline, from when magic is gifted it took maybe less than a year for it to cause such destruction as to bring Doric to his knees begging for the Gods' intervention. Perhaps it was not simply the greed of humanity which caused the catastrophe but also the mental and physical corruption associated with exposure to pure magic. This, I think would better account for the speedy downfall of the unified human empire. No matter how evil humans naturally are, I think Doric would have lasted more than a year before deciding to do what he did. On the other hand, consider if all of humanity was being driven mad and wielding dragon-like omnipotence. That would definitely account for Doric's actions.

Also look at the Margonites and the Torment Creatures, then look at the dragon corrupted and the dragonspawn. The two look basically similar in principle/concept and I don't think its such a leap to say both might be the result of inense exposure to pure magic. Now, we must account for something, why, if all of humanity was exposed to pure magic, was not a whole generation doomed to the Realm of Torment? Well, there's nothing to say they weren't, but I think we would have heard of it if they were, so I must assume that either the gods wiped away the taint just prior to leaving or the creation of the Bloodstones negated the power of the taint. Why then were the Margonites still corrupted. Well, if I remember correctly (and I do) the Margonites only took on their current form after the creation of the Bloodstones. Abaddon gifted them with some sort of blessing, according to lore, so they would better serve him in his war against the other gods. Once he became fully corrupted, his essence might have conveyed pure magic into others. His blessing is like that of the other gods but he is corrupted by pure magic, therefore, those blessed by him receive the same corruption. Abaddon, like the Elder dragons, served as a bastion of pure magic preventing the Bloodstones from affecting those under his influence. If the dragons all wield pure magic then Kuunavang's blessing of celestial skills might have been somewhat similar in principle. When Abaddon was destroyed, he was replaced by Kormir who was not corrupted by pure magic, this might have resulted in the redemption of the Realm of Torment. The gift given by the gods to Kormir might also have played a part in preventing Abaddon's taint from passing on to her. That the Margonites held out suggests that Abaddon's blessing outlived him, though one must then wonder why the tormented souls were freed.

Anyway, if Abaddon was filled with the same power the Elder Dragons utilize this would account for his ability to defeat two gods by himself while Balthazar and Grenth can barely handle one each. However, his inability to deal with all five gods might suggest that he was significantly less powerful than the Elder Dragons, therefore, we might think of Abaddon more as one of the Dragons' generals than as a draconic god himself. Now, we must assume that the Bloodstones for some reason have no effect on the dragons. Looking at the dragons, none of them seem associated with any of the four schools of magic. Of course, I think it's impossible to link any of the caster professions to any specific school, so why should we expect the division to be any more obvious with the dragons? Anyway so far as we can tell the Bloodstones do not seem to have an effect on the Elder dragons (perhaps not glint or Kuunavang either though it's hard to tell). I suppose it's possible that the Bloodstones only affect those to whom the gods gifted magic.

Now, one might think that there can be no distinguishment made between the corruption caused by pure magic and the moral corruption caused by any type of excessive power. I would suggest that the distinguishing feature of pure magic's corruption is the physical deformation it causes. All things corrupted by pure magic are twisted forms of either living things or unliving matter. The Destroyers were a corruption of fire and stone. The Margonites were corrupted humans. Svanir was a corrupted Norn. It's possible that Torment Creatures are corruptions of the Realm of Torment itself which is a corrupted Realm. If they all come from the Dreadspawn Maw, as is implied, it may be a magical power center within the RoT itself. I must admit, Titans seem like a core of this corruption which simply gathers materials from its environment into a corrupted form. It would be interesting if Titans in fact do carry a certain amount of pure magic with them at all times. This might also explain the powers of the Cauldron, the Jade Wind, and the Forbidden Scrolls. All might be demonstrations of Pure Magic in action which would explain their unbelievable potency. If this is just a sample of what was gifted to men in the year 0 BE, I think I can understand Doric sacrificing himself to see it negated.

Added: The Margonites seem to use professions, so this might mean they are affected by the Bloodstones. On the other hand, it might just have been a lack of foresight on Anet's part or a matter of expedience in regards to game mechanics. In any case, many, if not all, of the various monster skills used by Margonites and Varesh might be demonstrations of them channeling pure magic through their link to Abaddon. Enemies struck by these attacks might be corrupted by them to some extent and this might partially explain why those who fight against Abaddon are often sent to the RoT. The neigh invincibility of the Horde of Darkness is a particularly interesting example of Abaddon's blessings.

Edited by Muan, 24 April 2010 - 12:48 AM.

[Lol Lol Lol Guy]

Wow,this is very interesting...

[drkn]

I like your thinking. I really do, even though you seem tainted by Dragon Age with all that taint :>
But seriously, it sounds somewhat possible. The Jade Wind probably have been just channeled through Shiro, originally prepared and unleashed by Abaddon himself. The Cauldron is somehow connected with the Titans, so back to Abaddon again.
Also, quoting wiki:

Quote

It is believed, but unconfirmed, that the effects of the Cataclysm, and thus the Lost Scrolls, is what turned Khilbron into a lich.

If the Scrolls actually were filled with primal and pure magic, then it was corrupting magic again.

Now let's try to disprove the theory...

[Imrahil Greywood]

Some of our characters magic if not all also comes from the gods e.g. Light of Dwayna.
I dont think it is pure magic that corrupts but dark/evil/corrupt magic. And what is pure magic?

Edited by Imrahil Greywood, 24 April 2010 - 07:27 AM.

[Osydius]

@Imrahil Greywood Pure magic would be like the first magic ever to be created on the world (like the dragons) which has been filtered down by people teaching it to people (like the gods to humans).

Overall I think this is a great explanation of how everything is connected and that maybe the magic in guildwars isn't just an excuse to make sparkly spells. Great investigating :D

[Muan]

@Imrahil Greywood see here. Our spells are powered by magic and must conform to one of the four schools. It is very difficult to tell if professions are confined to a specific school and which school they are linked to (I don't believe there has been an official statement on the subject), but certainly no single skill can wield more than one type of magic at the same time. Pure magic is not limited in this way. Any skill we use might use divine power or the power of spirits, but all of those spells either do not use magic or are confined to one of the four schools. According to lore, when pure magic was doled out to the races:

Quote

Wars broke out immediately as the magical races fought for dominance. So much destruction was wrought that humans found themselves at the edge of extinction. - History of Tyria

Edited by Muan, 24 April 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[drkn]

Quote

It is very difficult to tell if professions are confined to a specific school and which school they are linked to (I don't believe there has been an official statement on the subject), but certainly no single skill can wield more than one type of magic at the same time.

According to the article you brought up:

Quote

Magic has four principle schools to it – Preservation, Destruction, Aggression, and Denial. The four schools are linked to the four core caster professions – Monk, Elementalist, Necromancer, and Mesmer respectively.

The pure magic reminds me of Sourcery. Pretty much bending the reality and crafting whatever spells you need from the very energy of everything, rather than being limited by what you've learned from others, and what they got from the gods/stones.

[Gmr Leon]

Muan said:

I mean, Anet literally referred to the dragons once as "Magical Generators" and the breath which they use to corrupt both living and unliving things is referred to as "magical breath".

Any idea which interview this was in? Mainly the magic generator bit, I ran a search in our sticky of all the interviews and it didn't show up.

Muan said:

Now, look at the GW timeline, from when magic is gifted it took maybe less than a year for it to cause such destruction as to bring Doric to his knees begging for the Gods' intervention. Perhaps it was not simply the greed of humanity which caused the catastrophe but also the mental and physical corruption associated with exposure to pure magic. This, I think would better account for the speedy downfall of the unified human empire. No matter how evil humans naturally are, I think Doric would have lasted more than a year before deciding to do what he did.

You're right, it wasn't just humanity fighting amongst itself leading to the downfall of their empire on Tyria.

Prophecies Manuscripts. said:

Wars broke out immediately as the magical races fought for dominance.

This makes it clear that, by the earlier description, races such as the Charr, Tengu, Centaurs, etc. all would have been given magic. Think of what humanity has done to each of these races, and it will become apparent why they were pushed close to extinction. It doesn't need to be pure magical corruption of any sort in that case.

Muan said:

Well, if I remember correctly (and I do) the Margonites only took on their current form after the creation of the Bloodstones.

Actually:

Scriptures of Abaddon, 1 BE. said:

And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.

This suggests they took on their current form prior to the creation of the Bloodstones.

Muan said:

Abaddon gifted them with some sort of blessing, according to lore, so they would better serve him in his war against the other gods. Once he became fully corrupted, his essence might have conveyed pure magic into others. His blessing is like that of the other gods but he is corrupted by pure magic, therefore, those blessed by him receive the same corruption...That the Margonites held out suggests that Abaddon's blessing outlived him, though one must then wonder why the tormented souls were freed.

The blessing Abaddon gave to the Margonites was not to assist him in his war against the gods. At the time he did so, he had yet to acquire any reason to wish to fight against them. From what we can tell, what incited the war was their desire to contain or filter magic so that it could not be the "pure" magic you describe. The reason the Margonites as we see them remain is because they don't need a constant steady feed of Abaddon's essence or energy to sustain their form, all they need is another source of pure magical energy (after digestion of it, of course) which from what we can see in-game, may be and seems to be souls. Hence the Soulweir in the Gate of Pain mission, and the Margonites' threats to souls in the Desolation to devour them.

The tormented souls still weren't necessarily freed, by the way. Although, this may be entirely on the game mechanics we're working with, but I think all they were freed from was Abaddon's nightmares and his anguish as he strained against his chains. Especially since the latter was said to twist and mutilate the minds and souls of all who came near. (See Abaddon's Gate description.)

Muan said:

Anyway, if Abaddon was filled with the same power the Elder Dragons utilize this would account for his ability to defeat two gods by himself while Balthazar and Grenth can barely handle one each...I suppose it's possible that the Bloodstones only affect those to whom the gods gifted magic.

Do keep in mind, though, that Balthazar's half-brother Menzies isn't a god, and Grenth's predecessor isn't exactly the most normal of gods to defeat, considering he was a god of death as well. (I mean, really, how do you defeat that?) As to the Bloodstones effects, this is something I've pondered on as well, but all of my ideas are improvable and rather out there. There's no real way of explaining how the Bloodstones would be capable of distinguishing between those beings the gods "gifted" magic and those they did not, at least, no way that is simple and to the point.

[Muan]

drkn said:

The pure magic reminds me of Sourcery. Pretty much bending the reality and crafting whatever spells you need from the very energy of everything, rather than being limited by what you've learned from others, and what they got from the gods/stones.

About the four schols of magic and thier cooresponding professions, yes, but that's just the general consensus. The article has no source. Of course, that's besides the point. Also, really if you look at the in depth descriptions of magic in GW, such as this one:

Quote

Reports of Charr attacks arrive daily, so I have begun researching ways to protect us from these beasts. By focusing the ether around my body, I can create a barrier. It is almost as though the air itself hardens, stopping arrows and deflecting blades. I need more time to perfect the spell, though. It requires an immense amount of concentration to maintain, and lapses in focus allow attacks to slip through. A bigger drawback is the Energy loss from exertion. Perhaps I can find some way to compensate for this... - Research Journal

It seems to be more similar to psychic powers or the ability to manipulate the world with your mind as if it were part off you body than it is traditional sorcery. What exactly the four schools of magic and their limitations are is unclear, but it is stated that magic was originally far more powerful than it is now.

Edited by Muan, 24 April 2010 - 03:59 PM.

[Gmr Leon]

Not to exert my own views too much, but it's descriptions like that which led to my thinking of magic as the manipulation of the Mists (and Mists being an equivalent to ether) through a spiritual (literally, soul to Mists) connection. Somehow, this connection was made more difficult to sustain (more concentration, more focus necessary) thus meaning it would take much more training to be capable of magic than before. It's not too farfetched, I suppose, to suspect that it was easier to perform in the past when they had a direct link to the countless ages of knowledge about the matter (Abaddon) and that the withdrawal of magic into the Bloodstones was akin to withdrawing the knowledge of how to perform it easily and more effectively than anything we've seen.

[Muan]

I'm not so sure about magic having so much to do with knowledge. The difference between mind and soul seem nill in the GW world and I think "Ether" while it is probably one of the energies found in the mists is not the mists themselves, (which are something I think is more akin to chaos, though that's for another time). Anyway, the bloodstones absorb souls and have a weird affect on lifeforce. Also, notice that both of the known bloodstones (assuming the keystone is technically not a bloodstone) are surrounded by overgrown forests. I think they and magic are both more tied to lifeforce than knowledge though its really unclear. Then there are those weird jade crystals that form around them and have something to do with the Mursaat. If only we knew more about the four schools and the bloodstones themselves. Sometimes I think Anet has completely forgotten about them. Has there even been a mention of the four schools since Prophesies came out?

Added: You know something else? I believe in that History of Tyria document it says imps and minotaurs were also gifted with magic by the gods. Now not inly does this suggest imps and minotaurs to be intelligent beings, but i think I saw imps use maybe one school of magic and the minotaurs used all of zero schools, none of them cast spells (unless u count the aurochs in EOTN).

Edited by Muan, 24 April 2010 - 04:44 PM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Imrahil Greywood said:

Some of our characters magic if not all also comes from the gods e.g. Light of Dwayna.
I dont think it is pure magic that corrupts but dark/evil/corrupt magic. And what is pure magic?

I don't think any magic comes from the gods, but rather that the gods taught people, or gave them the ability, to use magic. Humans believe that it comes from the gods, and their prayers are just chants for magic which are about said gods. Aside from this, I won't respond to specifics, as Gmr Leon seemed to cover that for me.

Regarding the idea that magic corrupts. I don't think this is absolute. Mind you, magic can corrupt, but not all magic does. We know that there are four schools of magic: Preservation, Aggression, Destruction, and Denial. At least two (Preservation and Aggression) have beneficial aspects (healing/protection and blood magic respectively), and all four have harmful aspects (smiting/petrification, death/curses/life stealing, etc.).

I think there is a fifth school of magic: Transformation. This one is both beneficial and harmful as well. In its beneficial light, you get things like the norn forms and the dervish avatars; you may even be able to create new life from inanimate objects and along with that: Terraforming. But in its harmful side, you get things like Margonites, the dragon's minions, the Oni, pure insanity, etc.

And going on this, what if the fifth bloodstone - the one not tied to any of the four known schools of magic - the Keystone - is in fact tied to this fifth school of magic? With the knowledge that it is tied to a school removed just as knowledge of Abaddon and Dhuum was from Tyria in order to help prevent disasters from occurring? The gods would of seen what happened to the Margonites, and saw that the fifth school of magic was too risky - far more risky than pure destruction - to keep around.

So to summarize: I don't think it is pure magic which corrupts, albeit power corrupts but that is in a different line of sight, but instead that a fifth aspect of magic that is the corruption. And at that, not all of that fifth aspect is corrupting, but some of it is beneficial as well.

But there's one more thing I must discuss:

Muan said:

I'm not so sure about magic having so much to do with knowledge. The difference between mind and soul seem nill in the GW world and I think "Ether" while it is probably one of the energies found in the mists is not the mists themselves, (which are something I think is more akin to chaos, though that's for another time). Anyway, the bloodstones absorb souls and have a weird affect on lifeforce. Also, notice that both of the known bloodstones (assuming the keystone is technically not a bloodstone) are surrounded by overgrown forests. I think they and magic are both more tied to lifeforce than knowledge though its really unclear. Then there are those weird jade crystals that form around them and have something to do with the Mursaat. If only we knew more about the four schools and the bloodstones themselves. Sometimes I think Anet has completely forgotten about them. Has there even been a mention of the four schools since Prophesies came out?

Added: You know something else? I believe in that History of Tyria document it says imps and minotaurs were also gifted with magic by the gods. Now not inly does this suggest imps and minotaurs to be intelligent beings, but i think I saw imps use maybe one school of magic and the minotaurs used all of zero schools, none of them cast spells (unless u count the aurochs in EOTN).

The bloodstones don't absorb the souls, they are acting like a transfer device - taking the souls from the bodies to the soul batteries. The affects are there all the time not due to the souls but due to the magic they absorb.

The inability to resurrect (in lore; in mechanics its just a lengthened resurrection time) is caused by the transfer of souls to the soul batteries. Remove the soul batteries and by all knowledge we have, the souls would not be trapped and would allow resurrection.

Also, you assume that the Ring of Fire bloodstone is the Keystone, which is not even a highly likely event (it has a 1/3 chance of being the Keystone if the universal thoughts that the Maguuma Bloodstone is the Preservation one, and the Shiverpeaks Bloodstone (Bloodstone Caves) is the Aggression Bloodstone). Also, lots of plantlife being in, well, a jungle has nothing to do with a bloodstone. We also have nothing to say that the crystals formed from the bloodstone has anything to do with the Mursaat - if you look closely, the texture and color of the material, the "jade," that the Mursaat uses is different than the stuff coming from the Bloodstones.

Regarding the minotaur comment: Firstly, yes, Aurochs do seem to count as minotaurs. However, I think it was more to point out that "every living creature was given the ability to use magic, should they be able to."

To go on the non-sapient creatures using magic:

Quote

I find the storm riders to be quite fascinating. It seems they exhibit powers and abilities not dissimilar to those a Mesmer might use.

This appears to me that the creatures don't use magic, that is, how humans would understand it, but instead that they have abilities similar to magic. Of course this doesn't rule out creatures actually using magic, mind you.

[Gmr Leon]

Muan said:

I'm not so sure about magic having so much to do with knowledge.

That wasn't really what I was trying to imply, although I do understand how you could derive that from it, but I couldn't see a better way of phrasing it since the events surrounding the gifting of magic are, essentially, unknown.

Konig Des Todes said:

We also have nothing to say that the crystals formed from the bloodstone has anything to do with the Mursaat - if you look closely, the texture and color of the material, the "jade," that the Mursaat uses is different than the stuff coming from the Bloodstones.

Not to be too tangential here, but while I do believe the material outcrop on the Bloodstones is natural, I also believe it is harvested by the Mursaat for their constructs and buildings. Gadd intended to use the Bloodstone for its magical properties, so it doesn't seem at all bizarre that the Mursaat, who are also renowned for their magical prowess (terrible and fearful spellcasters, as Glint describes) would use it for similar means to give their buildings a natural defensive property as well to create a physically inclined force in the form of Jade Armors.

[drkn]

Quote

I think there is a fifth school of magic: Transformation. This one is both beneficial and harmful as well. In its beneficial light, you get things like the norn forms and the dervish avatars

Quote

And going on this, what if the fifth bloodstone - the one not tied to any of the four known schools of magic - the Keystone - is in fact tied to this fifth school of magic? With the knowledge that it is tied to a school removed just as knowledge of Abaddon and Dhuum was from Tyria in order to help prevent disasters from occurring? The gods would of seen what happened to the Margonites, and saw that the fifth school of magic was too risky - far more risky than pure destruction - to keep around.

Maybe i miss something here, but wouldn't removing the school and hiding the Bloodstone away disallow dervishes to take forms and Norns to shapeshift, according to that thought?

Quote

Also, you assume that the Ring of Fire bloodstone is the Keystone, which is not even a highly likely event

Why not? Maybe i missed something again.
As long as it's not disproven, it's as good theory as the existence of Transformation.

[Gmr Leon]

drkn said:

Maybe i miss something here, but wouldn't removing the school and hiding the Bloodstone away disallow dervishes to take forms and Norns to shapeshift, according to that thought?

Not entirely, it would merely lessen the potency of their abilities. E.g. rather than gaining the divine powers of the gods, you only get their appearance and some elements of their powers, such as Grenth's attacks passing through enchantments and stealing life, or Balthazar's enhanced strength and armor.

[Muan]

Konig Des Todes said:

Regarding the idea that magic corrupts. I don't think this is absolute. Mind you, magic can corrupt, but not all magic does. We know that there are four schools of magic: Preservation, Aggression, Destruction, and Denial. At least two (Preservation and Aggression) have beneficial aspects (healing/protection and blood magic respectively), and all four have harmful aspects (smiting/petrification, death/curses/life stealing, etc.).

I think there is a fifth school of magic: Transformation. This one is both beneficial and harmful as well. In its beneficial light, you get things like the norn forms and the dervish avatars; you may even be able to create new life from inanimate objects and along with that: Terraforming. But in its harmful side, you get things like Margonites, the dragon's minions, the Oni, pure insanity, etc.

And going on this, what if the fifth bloodstone - the one not tied to any of the four known schools of magic - the Keystone - is in fact tied to this fifth school of magic? With the knowledge that it is tied to a school removed just as knowledge of Abaddon and Dhuum was from Tyria in order to help prevent disasters from occurring? The gods would of seen what happened to the Margonites, and saw that the fifth school of magic was too risky - far more risky than pure destruction - to keep around.

So to summarize: I don't think it is pure magic which corrupts, albeit power corrupts but that is in a different line of sight, but instead that a fifth aspect of magic that is the corruption. And at that, not all of that fifth aspect is corrupting, but some of it is beneficial as well.

I can't exactly rule out a fifth school of magic, but I would have to question why it was not mentioned along with the other four and how does this account for the Cataclysm? There might be evidence for such a thing, but for now I'd rather abide by Occom's Razor and go with the system that involves fewer assumed mechanisms. Pure magic as I call it is confirmed to exist. Theoretically, it corrupts only in its pure form, when divided it is rendered inert. If the magic of the dragons is the same as the magic we use, they must have at least originally been using it before the gods gifted it to us and their current magical prowess would suggest they are still using it. Mostly I'm saying that as long as what the gods gave us was what the dragons already had, then, unless the dragons are also limited by the Bloodstones, then their power is that which was originally doled out by the gods. Other factors suggest Abaddon's taint is linked to this, but that is less certain. A major question becomes, how did the gods give us magic? They did not create it. Their facets being in the form of dragons suggests to me that those facets might have been part of how the gods wielded magic and par of how they granted it to us but this is hardly a complete picture. Anyway, the real point of this theory is to suggest that pure magic corrupts physically, spiritually, and mentally and may be the source of both dragon corruption and Abaddon's taint.

[Konig Des Todes]

drkn said:

Maybe i miss something here, but wouldn't removing the school and hiding the Bloodstone away disallow dervishes to take forms and Norns to shapeshift, according to that thought?

Not at all, it just means people are accessing it without knowing they are.

The bloodstone would mean that it would be weakened, like the others, and the hiding of it would mean that people wouldn't think of tapping it. Eventually people began to tap it, but without knowing it is a fifth school and not just a stone required to unite the bloodstones then people wouldn't think of taping into it more fully.

drkn said:

Why not? Maybe i missed something again.
As long as it's not disproven, it's as good theory as the existence of Transformation.

It isn't disproven, but it isn't a "most likely" event because it isn't above 50% chance. It's either a 20% chance, or a 33% chance, but Muan says that it is as in, absolutely is.

Muan said:

I can't exactly rule out a fifth school of magic, but I would have to question why it was not mentioned along with the other four and how does this account for the Cataclysm? There might be evidence for such a thing, but for now I'd rather abide by Occom's Razor and go with the system that involves fewer assumed mechanisms. Pure magic as I call it is confirmed to exist. Theoretically, it corrupts only in its pure form, when divided it is rendered inert. If the magic of the dragons is the same as the magic we use, they must have at least originally been using it before the gods gifted it to us and their current magical prowess would suggest they are still using it. Mostly I'm saying that as long as what the gods gave us was what the dragons already had, then, unless the dragons are also limited by the Bloodstones, then their power is that which was originally doled out by the gods. Other factors suggest Abaddon's taint is linked to this, but that is less certain. A major question becomes, how did the gods give us magic? They did not create it. Their facets being in the form of dragons suggests to me that those facets might have been part of how the gods wielded magic and par of how they granted it to us but this is hardly a complete picture. Anyway, the real point of this theory is to suggest that pure magic corrupts physically, spiritually, and mentally and may be the source of both dragon corruption and Abaddon's taint.

I already said why it wouldn't be mentioned: Because it is unknown to humans. And it would have nothing to do with the Cataclysm actually, I don't know why you thought I was connecting it to the Cataclysm.

If one were to apply Occom's Razor to this, then it wouldn't be that pure magic corrupts (which there is no "pure" or "refined" magic to my knowledge, that is all theory), but rather that any kind of magic can corrupt if one wants it to.

In essence, Occom's Razor would simply follow the motto: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Abaddon's taint seems to me to be nothing more than literal insanity and having been literally and figuratively touched by Abaddon. I.e., no corruption involved, but that the domain of Abaddon - the knowledge of everything, including the things that should not be known - would drive people insane, and in turn with the gods wanting to wipe out all knowledge of Abaddon, those who knew of him, or were touched by him.

I.e., "Abaddon's taint" was nothing more than you or me being "tainted by our next door neighbor."

[TedTheShred]

I've always been under the impression that Magic is like radiation. It's merely a facet of nature that affects things in predictable ways. Those predictable outcomes are later given the labels of "Good" or "Bad", "Pure" or "Corrupt". I'll give an example:

The Jade Wind. Generally attributed to "Bad" or "Corrupt". It swept across southern Cantha and turned trees to stone and the sea to jade. In that same sweep, it mutated the various seafaring organisms of the Jade Sea. Mutations like Arms, Legs, and Lungs allowed those organisms to survive in a suddenly waterless world.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

And it would have nothing to do with the Cataclysm actually, I don't know why you thought I was connecting it to the Cataclysm.

Perhaps because in the past it has been discussed that the darker features of the Orrian Undead, including the Lich's wings and horns, being a form of corruption inherent in the magic released upon the reading of the Lost Scrolls, be it from Abaddon or Zhaitan? Those would, under your descriptions of the transformation school of magic, fall under that school. One could even say the transformation of the remains of enemies into the Necromancer's Bone Horrors and Fiends was another display of this school.

Really, the school you suggest as possibly existing seems a bit too broad. It could even be argued the Mists itself is the raw form of this school, transforming parts of itself into life, such as Razah, and demons, as well as potentially planets.

[Muan]

Konig Des Todes said:

If one were to apply Occom's Razor to this, then it wouldn't be that pure magic corrupts (which there is no "pure" or "refined" magic to my knowledge, that is all theory), but rather that any kind of magic can corrupt if one wants it to.

We know that magic existed or was once used in a form different than the current one, an undivided school. This is pure magic. It exists. There can be no debate on this without claiming that the four schools always existed. The questions revolve around whether or not the dragons use it, does it corrupt in a way that other forms of magic do not, and, if so, does this explain Abaddon's taint? We know pure magic, dragon corruption and Abaddon's taint all exist and all are connected in someway to ancient magic old enough to be pure magic. By saying that Dragon taint and Abaddon's taint are one and that they can be accounted for by linking pure magic with corruption eliminates one or two mechanisms by combining them further simplifying the system and perhaps serving serving Occom's Razor assuming we have enough evidence and nothing to go against it. That's why I brought it up, but don't let that sidetrack you, Occom's Razor is also the mos commonly used logical fallacy in scientific circles. It does not prove anything, it was just something Occom came up with after becoming annoyed with his colleagues continually coming up with over-complicated explanations and simply pointing out that the explained things and could not conclusively be proven wrong. Also power corrupts does not account for physical corruption or why magic in its current form does not cause this corruption at all, either your school or my connection are necessary for that at the moment.

[Konig Des Todes]

@ Leon:
That's all true, I suppose. The undead - especially Khilbron - do seem to have been altered by magic. But how would it fit? That's simple, it just goes into the theory that the Lost Scrolls utilized multiple schools of magic (as per it containing magic before the limitation of the bloodstone), and the Transformation school being part of such.

Regarding the broadness of the school - I can see how it can be, but it isn't really any more broad than Destruction, Preservation, etc. Destruction is, well, destroying things - Preservation is the restoring and preserving of things - Aggression is the increase of activity, doing more things - Denial is the opposite of Aggression more or less, the refusal to do things. Transformation would be the changing, outside of the above, of things.

I wouldn't attribute it to the creation of things, just the change of things. I think the Mists is comprised of all five schools - Aggression to progress the formation of things, Denial to stop it once necessary, Preservation to keep things alive, Destruction to kill things/create the natural disasters and weather, and Transformation to change things (terraforming, shape the stable life into whatever it will become, etc.). Without Transformation, things would look oblong and deformed.

@Muan:

Where does it state that magic was split up? There are four schools, yes, but these seem to me to be different properties of magic, not that magic was split into them when the bloodstones were created. I do think that all four schools always existed and that they are in fact just different ways to use magic. I see nothing that states otherwise.

That is, magic is magic, but there are multiple ways to use magic. These ways to use magic would be the schools of magic. It's basically like saying that all those who can use magic are spellcasters but the spellcasters are separated into different professions.

As such, a school is just how one uses magic. In my opinion.

[Muan]

Oh, we just think of this differently. You seem to think that the old magic was only the combination of all current schools while I go with the idea that this combination results in the synthesis of what amounts to a different school. Essentially, I just think a combination is more than the sum of its parts. I agree, humans before the bloodstones might have choose to limit themselves to one of the four schools or use only magic which could be provided by one of the four, but I think that when you combine any two, much less four, other spells such as Abaddon's Chosen and Abaddon's Favor become possible (perhaps representing a link between denial and preservation). Kind of like combining fire magic with earth magic to produce lava. Also, the combination of the four might result in the ability to dramatically increase the potency of any one, like a magical harmonic resonance.

Edited by Muan, 25 April 2010 - 12:34 AM.

[Konig Des Todes]

Actually, I think that there is no combination or separation of magic, just classification for how to use magic. Like saying a gun is both a tool of assault and a tool of defense - it's still one thing, but classified as two.

But I can agree with the idea of combining schools of magic.

[Gmr Leon]

Konig Des Todes said:

@ Leon:
That's all true, I suppose. The undead - especially Khilbron - do seem to have been altered by magic. But how would it fit? That's simple, it just goes into the theory that the Lost Scrolls utilized multiple schools of magic (as per it containing magic before the limitation of the bloodstone), and the Transformation school being part of such.

Regarding the broadness of the school - I can see how it can be, but it isn't really any more broad than Destruction, Preservation, etc. Destruction is, well, destroying things - Preservation is the restoring and preserving of things - Aggression is the increase of activity, doing more things - Denial is the opposite of Aggression more or less, the refusal to do things. Transformation would be the changing, outside of the above, of things.

I wouldn't attribute it to the creation of things, just the change of things. I think the Mists is comprised of all five schools - Aggression to progress the formation of things, Denial to stop it once necessary, Preservation to keep things alive, Destruction to kill things/create the natural disasters and weather, and Transformation to change things (terraforming, shape the stable life into whatever it will become, etc.). Without Transformation, things would look oblong and deformed.

Why would things look oblong and deformed without transformation? If Aggression causes the formation of things by incurring activity then why wouldn't Denial be capable of halting the formation once it had achieved the appropriate or desired result? And to prevent the formation from reverting to the chaos (or Aggression, perhaps) from which it was derived, you have Preservation. Then once it reaches the end of its processing, you have Destruction to revert it into the basic physical elements and Preservation to maintain the existence of the soul until it at some point possibly rejoins its basic ethereal elements.

Transformation is an unnecessary addition, as I see it, even working within the views of the schools you provide. If you want to mutate a creature, tap into Aggression to force it into what you want, then Denial to stop it once it's in the image you desire. This fits into the ways Abaddon's blessing would have altered the Margonites appearance and biological functions as well as the Elder Dragons' corruption and creation of minions.

I simply do not see the necessity of another school to make sense of what we observe in-game. While I'm not quite sure I agree completely with Muan's stance, it seems more plausible than an unknown, unheard of school. Your position argues from the unknown, and is a hypothesis at the moment, until you can provide evidence in your favor, which as it stands, you cannot. So while it mustn't be discounted, the probabilities do, I believe, favor Muan, of that I think we can agree, don't you?

As an aside, who even told the humans what the schools of magic were, and that the Gods divided the Bloodstones into them, anyway? It doesn't seem like the Gods would have divided the original Bloodstone and said, by the way, this, this, this, this, and this are this school, that school, this school, that school, and this is the one that puts them all together. Oh, and we don't know why we made that last one, but you know us, we work in mysterious ways inconceivable to the mortal mind.

[Imrahil Greywood]

Thought provokers....

Divine Magic...............................................................................

Quote

Despite her quick move, the creature’s axe came down on her arm. Devona hissed and braced for the impact. Her skin flushed with the blue-white glow of divine magic, and the Charr’s weapon seemed to bounce off her flesh.

Quote

the monk closed his eyes, lowered his head, and began chanting a prayer to Dwayna. His words were smooth and mellifluous, a sharp contrast to the harsh clangs and screams below. Lifting his hands into the air, Burian finished his prayer.
"Breathe life back into the fallen. The miracle of rebirth…"
A flash of blue-white light surrounded Mordakai, and his body disappeared from the ground........ He'd been transported from the ground before the castle to the top of the crenellations by the monk's spell.........With the monks and clerics gone, Ascalon's Chosen had no more healing magic left. Their prayers to Dwayna would reach only deaf ears.

Quote

Mhenlo began the prayers to Dwayna that would grant him the power to heal the man's wounds.

Quote

ng the last words of a prayer to Dwayna. A cone of blue-white light enveloped the warrior. Arcane energies coursed through her veins, and the burning in her shoulder suddenly subsided. She couldn't see the monk,

Quote

Monks employ a direct conduit to the gods

Didnt "pure" magic originally come form the gods? " gave the ability to use Magic" or ast least how to access but.....
From above I think its safe to say some power in some form comes from the gods but where do they get it from? And how can magic from gods and within the bloodstone's constraints work? If each profession/type of ele each has a god maybe people get corrupted because they do not access their magic from or through the gods.


Incantations which Manipulate ......... Magic............................................

Quote

Holding both hands out in front of her chest, the elementalist spoke several words of power. Her body was instantly surrounded by a nimbus of glowing red runes, and her feet lifted off the ground. Suspended in the air by the flow of magical energy,

Edited by Imrahil Greywood, 25 April 2010 - 06:59 AM.

[draxynnic]

Interesting idea there. Reminds me of the Vortex in Warhammer Fantasy - it took the pure magic from the Realm of Chaos, filtered out the corrupting power, and splitting what was left into a spectrum of magical disciplines that were relatively safe for use by mortals. The Bloodstones could serve a similar function, except that it breaks magic into a smaller number of disciplines.

There certainly does seem to be some connection between magic and warfare - after all, even with the Bloodstones functioning, their seperation and expulsion into the rest of the world apparently lead to the outbreak of warfare in Tyria. Maybe it's because that instead of the process all happening at one place, the seperation of the Bloodstones means that magic cannot be fully refined until it's passed through all the Bloodstones, so their seperation means we have constant streams of unrefined, corrupting magic flowing between the Bloodstones. Even so, even with the dragons loose, it seems the gods did a better job than the WHF High Elves did.

I don't think I agree with the idea that because Abaddon was defeated by all five gods that he was weak compared to elder dragons, though. All we know about the relative power of the dragons versus the gods is that the dragons "rival" the gods and that the gods are reluctant to challenge the dragons directly (but we don't know if that means they think they'd lose, they think they'd win but aren't willing to take the risk, or are certain they'd win but that fighting in person would cause more destruction on Tyria than it was worth if there was any chance that mortals could deal with the situation). He was certainly well above the Great Destroyer's power level, even constrained, so he certainly wasn't at "draconic general" status, and if the dragons were equal or even inferior in power to Abaddon before his imprisonment, that still makes them powerful enough that the gods wouldn't want to risk a collective response. (Averaging three quarters of Abaddon's power per dragon makes 1.5 of the gods that Abaddon defeated, for a total of 7.5 gods worth. Even if we assumed that the two gods Abaddon defeated were the weakest of the gods, that's still enough power that if the Six have reasonable reason to believe that a direct intervention would provoke a collective response...)

Regarding the Keystone: Personally, I've wondered at times if it was tied to control over the spirit world - this would give Ritualists and Rangers a stone, and explain why they can use effects from all the stones (except they do so through invoking the spirit world rather than directly). Transformation might also be involved here, since it largely involves channeling something from the spirit world - the animal spirits or the gods themselves - rather than just randomly tranforming into *something*. That said, one thing to remember is that the schools do overlap - things that would normally be associated with School X may also show up in School Y or Z. Bit like the real spectrum that way - our eyes may divide the colourwheel into the classical nine colours, and the Bloodstones may divide magic into four or five divisions, but neither magic nor the electromagnetic spectrum naturally has such well-defined distinctions.

Certainly, though, the presence of Ritualists before the gift of magic was given implies that magic could be used at some level beforehand, suggesting that it was teaching rather than introducing.

[drkn]

Quote

Didnt "pure" magic originally come form the gods? " gave the ability to use Magic" or ast least how to access but.....

I don't think so. The gods are only 'channeling' the magic to the races of Tyria. Maybe they've learned the people how to use magic back in Arah, told them that such thing as magic exists and showed how to manipulate it.
Maybe the men way of using magic involves the presence of gods - as in: if Dwayna somehow ceases to exist and no one replaces her, the healing magic of men stops working. Until they 'discover' a new way to use it. But it doesn't mean that gods are the source of 'pure magic' - rather that they filter it from that corrupting purity, allowing the men to control it to some degree.

I actually like the idea of mixing the schools of magic to achieve a new effect. Sounds pretty logical and practically possible.
I also think that Leon has his point in using the existing four schools of magic to transform - that solution is pretty logical and coherent, while doesn't require to multiple entities beyond necessity.

Quote

Like saying a gun is both a tool of assault and a tool of defense - it's still one thing, but classified as two.

I see magic otherwise - as a component of the world. So are the four schools - elements, ingredients.
It's more like, for example, coal. Coal may be mixed with sulphur and potassium nitrate to produce gunpowder. Coal may be used in production of ethanol. Mixed with some medicaments, it's an ingredient of drugs.
The same goes for schools of magic. Aggression + Preservation may give different results than Aggression + Denial. It may be even closely similar to Magic: the Gathering's colors of magic, mechanically.

[Konig Des Todes]

@Leon:
I say oblong and deformed because aggression, denial, and destruction would need a very precise hand and thought to it, else it wouldn't accurate stop/start where needed. With Transformation, it can be done much easier than without it, and I for one do not think the Mists is sentient/sapient enough to have such a precise hand.

If the Mists was sapient, then no, Transformation wouldn't be necessary. But it seems to just be something that creates things. Aggression, Denial, and Destruction will start, stop, and reduce creations (respectively), preservation will keep it in a single, stable, form until it can be stable on its own, which is done by Transformation.

Perhaps I'm just poor at wording things, but Transformation would be necessary unless one can utilize the four schools as precise as an intricate artist making a sculpture. If a human or someone with talent could utilize all four schools, then yes, that will be good enough. But given something like the Mists? I find that unlikely.

Aggression grows, Denial halts, Preservation keeps the same, and Destruction reduces. Transformation changes with less work and more precision.

Gmr Leon said:

So while it mustn't be discounted, the probabilities do, I believe, favor Muan, of that I think we can agree, don't you?

I would say that it favors, instead, a third outcome which I brought up very shortly, which was that "that any kind of magic can corrupt if one wants it to" - that is, any of the four schools can transform to a degree (which is true, if one thinks about it, denial only if there is a pre-existing growth).

Imrahil Greywood said:

-snip-

Magic is divine by human's opinion, not by fact. Its the same as saying that the six gods are actual gods. Humans have viewed them as omnipotent and omniscience beings, but this is obviously false - they also believe(d?) that Tyria was the first planet, but Bahltek says otherwise. If Magic is prayers to the gods, then why would the charr - a race who opposes the gods - use said "prayers?" The answer is simple: Magic isn't divine, and it isn't really powered by the gods but simply taught/granted the use of by the gods.

Also, all your quotes are from beta, so things could of been changed, but even then, those are from the view of humanity, which ties into the above.

I don't even think that the gods are channeling magic like drkn said, but that they just allowed the races of Tyria to channel it themselves.

[drkn]

Quote

I say oblong and deformed because aggression, denial, and destruction would need a very precise hand and thought to it, else it wouldn't accurate stop/start where needed. With Transformation, it can be done much easier than without it, and I for one do not think the Mists is sentient/sapient enough to have such a precise hand.

Is evolution sapient?

[Konig Des Todes]

Evolution is an action, not a being. The Mists is constantly referred to both as a place and a creator. No, Evolution does not have sapience, but it still takes hundreds of thousands of years. The Mists (by all we know) does not.

Also, evolution does not create, but simply changes.