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Kits and Utility Loss...


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#181 Lyuben

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

Cornflakeboy said:

Problem with that is you don't drop kits in the game so that means you have to create stats for the kit you equip (which have to scale with your level and equipment). Which also means you can't choose the stats you want on your weapon kits.  

Moreover, kits are an option atm and I'm sure there are a lot of viable builds w/o kits so forcing people to play with kits as second weapon is exactly killing what differentiates the engineer to the other professions.

How is that different as to how it is now?

#182 The Eggman

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:56 PM

mrbig said:

It does change since now you can have 2 weapon sets, be them pistol/shield & rifle, or rifle & flammenwerfer or granade and mine kits.

And i don't understand your point about the "toolbelt being there to compensete for the lack of weapon": the toolbelt is there because it's part of your class mechanic.

The necro gets 4 skills when in death shroud. The mesmer has 4 shatters. The ele has various effects when swapping attunements ( before the nerf).

I can't see the problem.

The tool belt compensates for us just as the attunements compensate for the elementalist. We are the opposite of the elementalist. They get no weapon swap, but 4 attunements. We get no weapon swap, and get 4 tool belt skills. Their 4 attunements give them access to more weapon skills, our 4 tool belt skills give us access to more utilities. They are different, not more powerful or less powerful, than the other 6 class mechanics.

As for your suggestion... even if we keep the tool belt, there are still balancing issues to be had with this idea. If you give base stats to the kits that you equip, that is not fair to other classes. We wouldn't have to obtain a lv80 weapon with max stats like everyone else we could just use our kits. Or our kits would have less stats than normal weapons... but then why use them if they are weaker? It also makes the kits on the utility bar still better than the ones in the weapon swap slot, since they would gain the sigils of pistols/rifle still.

Then you also have to assume that engineer skills as of now are based around not having the traditional weapon swap. With this implemented you might see sweeping nerfs on abilities. May not be huge ones, but some abilities would definitely be tuned down.

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Lyuben said:

That has been my suggestion for a long time :)

If you look to the other older threads in this forum, you will see I argued for it.

Its logical, and fixes the engineers problems.

That was one idea of yours I liked... and while I have nothing against it being put in, I won't argue that it NEEDS to be put in. Also, while it was in an older thread... you don't really get that point out in any of your discussions lately. You just argue about the mechanics. Yes, some might know your idea but most people don't. And even for those of us who do, it is hard to tell that is what you are arguing for a good amount of the time.

#183 Cornflakeboy

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:06 PM

Lyuben said:

How is that different as to how it is now?

From what I understood, environmental weapons replaces your weapons skills with stats of your weapon. Kit are like environmental weapons, the only difference is you have them in your skill bar and when you drop them they don't "disappear" or enter any cooldown.
So yes they could replace toolbelt by a weapon kit (as environmental weapon) but then you would be forced  to play with kits... and I'm not sure this is what the devs wanted for the profession.

#184 Lyuben

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:08 PM

Cornflakeboy said:

From what I understood, environmental weapons replaces your weapons skills with stats of your weapon. Kit are like environmental weapons, the only difference is you have them in your skill bar and when you drop them they don't "disappear" or enter any cooldown.
So yes they could replace toolbelt by a weapon kit (as environmental weapon) but then you would be forced  to play with kits... and I'm not sure this is what the devs wanted for the profession.

Replace toolbelt? Whos talking about replacing the toolbelt?

The suggestion is to give a free kit.

#185 Snarfy

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:09 PM

The Eggman said:


As for your suggestion... even if we keep the tool belt, there are still balancing issues to be had with this idea. If you give base stats to the kits that you equip, that is not fair to other classes. We wouldn't have to obtain a lv80 weapon with max stats like everyone else we could just use our kits. Or our kits would have less stats than normal weapons... but then why use them if they are weaker? It also makes the kits on the utility bar still better than the ones in the weapon swap slot, since they would gain the sigils of pistols/rifle still.


They could always just use the stats on the weapon(s) that is/are equipped in the character screen for all kits.  As for the extra kit slot, all they would have to do is enable a toggle between your equipped weapon and your extra kit slot.  Out of combat you could choose whether you wanted to use your equipped weapon bar or your kit bar.  The base stats would come from your equipped weapon regardless.

I think that would go a long ways towards synergizing the kit mechanic without changing the power of the engineer too much, if at all.  It would make the engineer more flexible, which is essentially what the kit system is supposed to do anyway.  I think the issue was always being forced to use rifle or pistol, which didn't always work with builds using kits.

#186 Cornflakeboy

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:10 PM

Lyuben said:

Replace toolbelt? Whos talking about replacing the toolbelt?

The suggestion is to give a free kit.

For every things you gain, there's a price to pay ;)

#187 mrbig

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:11 PM

Lyuben said:

Behold!

Your worst nightmare!

http://www.gw2tools....aaaa;Ycaa;bRQkb

uhm, well, yeah. Who knows what the were thinking when they created the ele >_>

Anyway, the point about the enge is that i'm assuming that the devs think that the enge should be balanced around a max of 34 skills, so i'm reasoning as a conswquence of that.

if we don't wan to break that balance, then we need a restriction on kits, otherwise we would have a 39 skills enge.
And that, for the devs, would be OP ( don't ask me why)

@eggman

Quote

1) The tool belt compensates for us just as the attunements compensate for the elementalist. We are the opposite of the elementalist. They get no weapon swap, but 4 attunements. We get no weapon swap, and get 4 tool belt skills. Their 4 attunements give them access to more weapon skills, our 4 tool belt skills give us access to more utilities. They are different, not more powerful or less powerful, than the other 6 class mechanics.

I disagree. the toolbelt is there to cover for the enge lack of U-skills when they choose kits. Without the toolbelt, and without kits( since you should be able to create a kitless engeneer) , you would have a class with less skills and no class mechanic.
Not fair.
And no, the toolbelt will not be enough to be on par with other proff mechanics.


2) As for your suggestion... even if we keep the tool belt, there are still balancing issues to be had with this idea. If you give base stats to the kits that you equip, that is not fair to other classes. We wouldn't have to obtain a lv80 weapon with max stats like everyone else we could just use our kits. Or our kits would have less stats than normal weapons... but then why use them if they are weaker? It also makes the kits on the utility bar still better than the ones in the weapon swap slot, since they would gain the sigils of pistols/rifle still.

Then you also have to assume that engineer skills as of now are based around not having the traditional weapon swap. With this implemented you might see sweeping nerfs on abilities. May not be huge ones, but some abilities would definitely be tuned down.

I never said we should give base stats to the kits. Simply weapons become kits, and count as kits, still counting as weapons. Kits pick up the stats of the weapon you're currently wielding.
Nothing changes.
If not the fact that now you have 2 weapon sets. And from being  the class having the smallest weapon pool, you suddenly become the class with the widest weapon pool.
Again, i see no probs.


Bolded the answers.

Happy discussion, time to study for me. Exams won't solve by themselves.

Edited by mrbig, 18 April 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#188 Lyuben

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:11 PM

Cornflakeboy said:

For every things you gain, there's a price to pay ;)

Only price to pay, would be losing the toolbelt associated with the kit.

But, its better than losing a utility slot. And you still have 4 overall toolbelts.

#189 Cornflakeboy

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:16 PM

Lyuben said:

Only price to pay, would be losing the toolbelt associated with the kit.

But, its better than losing a utility slot. And you still have 4 overall toolbelts.

It's not my opinion but no one can argue what people prefer.

The only thing with this suggestion, for me at least, is that it somehow kills the versatilty of the prof. You can play as an alchemist, a gadgeter or a ..turreter (?) or a mix of those. But your suggestion forces the engi to be at least part of a gadgeter and this is what I don't like... but it's only matter of taste.

#190 Lyuben

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:21 PM

Cornflakeboy said:

It's not my opinion but no one can argue what people prefer.

The only thing with this suggestion, for me at least, is that it somehow kills the versatilty of the prof. You can play as an alchemist, a gadgeter or a ..turreter (?) or a mix of those. But your suggestion forces the engi to be at least part of a gadgeter and this is what I don't like... but it's only matter of taste.

How?

My suggestion makes it so you can have either the flamethrower, toolkit or elixir gun for free.

You are given even MORE freedom IMO. You have 10 weapon swaps, and 3 utilities to pick from. Just like all other professions.

There would still be problems with the first weapon, but that would be the weakness of the engineer. Plus, you can still equip explosive kits, you can also use 3 turrets without losing effectiveness, or 3 elixirs, without losing effectiveness. Its all round good.

The only loser is: people who plan a combination of elixir gun, flamethrower or toolkit in their build, or those who relied on one of their toolbelt skills.

#191 The Eggman

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:21 PM

mrbig said:

Spoiler

That could work in theory... but I would still expect Anet to nerf us somewhere else. Even if its just some abilities that get toned due to it.

I will say this, if they give us this idea there will be a nerf to something. They will not just give us more options like this. Not saying it will be some giant sweeping nerf, but I would expect something to be. Unless engineer truly is in a terrible spot compared to other classes in-game.

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Lyuben said:

The only loser is: people who plan a combination of elixir gun, flamethrower or toolkit in their build, or those who relied on one of their toolbelt skills.

Well actually, with that we would be 3 utilities short. So they would have to give us 3 new utilities to compensate. (every class has 20 utility skills) They could put the tool belt skills of those weapons as utilities. Or keep them as tool belt skills, while making 3 new utilities that still fit the flavor of those tool belt skills which would probably be easier.

#192 Lyuben

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:28 PM

The Eggman said:


Well actually, with that we would be 3 utilities short. So they would have to give us 3 new utilities to compensate. (every class has 20 utility skills) They could put the tool belt skills of those weapons as utilities. Or keep them as tool belt skills, while making 3 new utilities that still fit the flavor of those tool belt skills which would probably be easier.

Haha true.

I think that in terms of what it could be with the 3 new utilities: We currently have-

5 turrets
5 elixirs
4 gadgets
3 device kits

So, I would make it so we get another gadget, and 2 other device kits.

#193 licho

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

Cornflakeboy said:

Problem with that is you don't drop kits in the game so that means you have to create stats for the kit you equip (which have to scale with your level and equipment). Which also means you can't choose the stats you want on your weapon kits.  

Moreover, kits are an option atm and I'm sure there are a lot of viable builds w/o kits so forcing people to play with kits as second weapon is exactly killing what differentiates the engineer to the other professions.

I dont know/understood what you mean in first paragraph. :-(
It this idea, there will be no difference between tool kit in secondary weapon slot than this in utility slot. It will be like engeenier could set 4 utility skills, but one of them must be a toolset (like flamethrower, toolkit, bombset...) and will be avaiable under weapon swap key.

Why force to kits?
There will be no forcing, if somebody likes can run around with this 'secondary weapon kit' empty in the same way as can run with warrior with just a single weapon set, or any profesion without all utility slot equiped. There will be just the option.

Now, why option for kitsets?
From the same reason thieves cant use hammers, and elementarist have one weapon with 4 atuments. This would be new game(profesion) mechanism.
The lore explanacion will be: because engineers are gadeters, who instead of normal weapons use self constructed mechanism.

Balance issues?
Its tricky, because you can say "its overpowered" or "its fine" and there is no way to prove you are wrong. You cant prove you are right also, but who cares.
However:
- There is already the option to build 41 skill Elementarist. Or 34 skill Engeenier.
- Suprisingly not many people plays this way, who knows maybe its just dont works?  
- The more skill kits you load, the less skills you have "in hand". For example going with just obligatory skillset gives 14 skills in hand, and 19 total. While going full sets will provide 39 skills total, but 9 in hand.

Note: I just assumed you are loosing your F(5) toolbelt skill from secondary weapon kit. So there will be a price.

Another note: I will give no limit for which weapon/device set taken as secondary. Give the player freedom of choice. If the want make: rifle + mines + 5 turrets for saper themed engee... let them be.

Edited by licho, 19 April 2012 - 12:32 AM.


#194 Andulvar

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:32 PM

Lyuben said:

Haha true.

I think that in terms of what it could be with the 3 new utilities: We currently have-

5 turrets
5 elixirs
4 gadgets
3 device kits

So, I would make it so we get another gadget, and 2 other device kits.

Signets would be nice. Or Passive/Active devices. =/

#195 Lyuben

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 11:38 PM

Andulvar said:

Signets would be nice. Or Passive/Active devices. =/

Good idea.

Though if we are in the realms of ideas, I think that gadgets should be changed to act like signets, as I suggested in another thread.

Because IMO, they are long cooldowns, for a very situational effect. They should offer a passive, like a signet, which becomes inactive when on cooldown, like a signet.

It would make a very interesting spin on signets. Which often have very boring effects.

#196 MonsterAddict

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:32 AM

Lyuben said:

I love your contribution to the thread and the argument.

But I think you clicked on the wrong site.

I think you are looking for http://www.swtor.com/community/

Well, he does have a point. For every good argument you neglect, you effectively concede. A sure and terrible way to lose the debate.

#197 Lyuben

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:24 AM

MonsterAddict said:

Well, he does have a point. For every good argument you neglect, you effectively concede. A sure and terrible way to lose the debate.

Who did I neglect?

Need I remind you, that you have yet to tell me why being given a free kit, in a build which previously had no kit, would be negative.

You argued that.

#198 CaericElRoi

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 12:35 PM

TheEggman said:

The tool belt compensates for us just as the attunements compensate for the elementalist. We are the opposite of the elementalist. They get no weapon swap, but 4 attunements. We get no weapon swap, and get 4 tool belt skills. Their 4 attunements give them access to more weapon skills, our 4 tool belt skills give us access to more utilities. They are different, not more powerful or less powerful, than the other 6 class mechanics.

I have to disagree here.  The Ele does get attunements, but switching attunements does not remove one of their Utility skills.  

I get what you're saying, that Engi has the toolbelt to compensate for the loss of a utility skill when equipping a kit.  But what Lyuben is saying, and in this I agree, is that I get that Toolbelt skill regardless of if I have a kit or not (it's just a different skill when I equip a kit).  Ergo, I'm still utilizing the use of 1 utility slot/skill.  


Also, I didn't know the Ele had Conjures that could change their 1-5

http://www.gw2tools....aaaa;Ycaa;bRQkb (gotta give Lyuben some points for showing me this)

This bar is basically 4 Engi Kits.  The difference is, when they cast this "conjure" not only does it change their weap set, it gives them a conjured hammer/shield/sword at target location, making it useful outside of just conjuring the weapon into their hand.  Now, I haven't played GW2 yet, I don't plan to play the Ele, but if after summoning the Conjure the utility slot they summoned it from becomes a skill, then I'll be really REALLY pissed the Engi doesn't get a skill for their kit slot

#199 Cl1p

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:00 PM

I'm not going to participate in this debate, but I do want to point out a lot of the so called negative aspects and comparisments are based on incomplete or false information.

E.g.:
Elementalist atunements
An elementalist switching atunements has to wait 15 seconds before being able to go back to the original one.
Each atunement isn't always as useful in a battle, whereas an engineer build could use everything in a battle (or choose not to make such a build, the elementalist doesn't have such a choice).
An elementalist is bound to a combo of 4 atunement spell sets, an engineer can switch individual kits.

Elementalist conjure weapons.
Each conjure weapon only has 15 charges, used up very fast in a normal battle. After using it once it has a 60 sec. cooldown to summon one(two) again.

TLDR: When talking about the engineer you forget two things: time/quickness and choice/customization.

Edited by Cl1p, 19 April 2012 - 01:02 PM.


#200 CaericElRoi

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 01:24 PM

From what I've seen in vids, attunement switch is 5 seconds... but I could be wrong.  As for the conjure, if its a charged thing, than I can live with that balance.  :)  

I wasn't even trying to start this big hullaballoo... I just wanted to know why I had to sacrifice a utility slot.  I mean, I kinda wish Izzy would pop into this thread and explain their logic so I could stop worrying about it :P

I'm sure they've got a reason, I just don't understand it right now.  After the BWE, maybe I will :D

#201 Cornflakeboy

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 02:03 PM

Lyuben said:

Good idea.

Though if we are in the realms of ideas, I think that gadgets should be changed to act like signets, as I suggested in another thread.

Because IMO, they are long cooldowns, for a very situational effect. They should offer a passive, like a signet, which becomes inactive when on cooldown, like a signet.

It would make a very interesting spin on signets. Which often have very boring effects.

Gadgets are regular utilities. Look at other professions' utilities : they have a long cooldown of typically 40/45 seconds...and are very situational as well.

That's what I said in a previous post : engineers have one weapon sets because they have more interactions with utilities. In fact a lot of utilities are multiplied by five (five bombs, five grenades) to suit the situation you're in. It's like a sub menu of your utility, and on top of that they have short CD (for utilities).

So yes you may have good suggestions for how engis should be but bare in mind that these change have to be accompanied  by nerfs to others things, especially bombs, grenade CD (and availability) ... in the end the gameplay would be the same as let's say a warrior....

#202 Cl1p

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

CaericElRoi said:

From what I've seen in vids, attunement switch is 5 seconds... but I could be wrong.  As for the conjure, if its a charged thing, than I can live with that balance.  :)  

I wasn't even trying to start this big hullaballoo... I just wanted to know why I had to sacrifice a utility slot.  I mean, I kinda wish Izzy would pop into this thread and explain their logic so I could stop worrying about it :P

I'm sure they've got a reason, I just don't understand it right now.  After the BWE, maybe I will :D
nono, 15 sec : (from CBT3).
I agree though, an explanation on why everything is as it is from devs would be so cool ^^.

#203 podank

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:58 PM

I can't believe this is still being discussed.

You lose 1 utility slot but gain 5 new weapon slots.  If you don't see this as a fair trade then don't take any kits.  It's as simple as that.

#204 CaericElRoi

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:10 PM

podank said:

I can't believe this is still being discussed.

You lose 1 utility slot but gain 5 new weapon slots.  If you don't see this as a fair trade then don't take any kits.  It's as simple as that.

LOL... so what you're saying is, I can limit the amount of weapon skills available to me if I want to be more combat efficient?

That makes absolutely no sense.

All other classes get 5 new weapon slots simply by switching sets, with no loss of utility.  Yes there's a 10s delay, but it takes almost that long to utilize all 5 skills you switched for.  Engineers definitely are penalized for kit use, its my opinion.  I'm not saying I'm right you're wrong, but saying that if I don't want to lose a Utility skill I can't have kits... that's definitely wrong :(

#205 podank

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:20 PM

CaericElRoi said:

LOL... so what you're saying is, I can limit the amount of weapon skills available to me if I want to be more combat efficient?

That makes absolutely no sense.

I'm glad you're laughing but no, I'm saying you should take whichever you think is best for the build you have in mind.  Combat efficiency is determined by much more than the amount of weapon skills that you have.

How can you truly compare the value of 1 utility slot that is always available versus 5 weapon slots that must be swapped to?  You can't, the comparison is not direct, so the decision is subjective.  Hence, pick what you feel is better.

CaericElRoi said:

All other classes get 5 new weapon slots simply by switching sets, with no loss of utility.  Yes there's a 10s delay, but it takes almost that long to utilize all 5 skills you switched for.  Engineers definitely are penalized for kit use, its my opinion.  I'm not saying I'm right you're wrong, but saying that if I don't want to lose a Utility skill I can't have kits... that's definitely wrong :(

It's not wrong to have the decision; I feel that the freedom is a good thing.  Believe me, I understand the complaint and the reasoning behind it.  The logic, though, has no merit until you compare it to "other classes."  That's why the argument is flawed.  Much like trying to compare utility skills to weapon skills, the comparison (between classes) is simply not direct and thus inapplicable.

Edited by podank, 19 April 2012 - 07:26 PM.


#206 Lyuben

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:31 PM

podank said:

I can't believe this is still being discussed.

You lose 1 utility slot but gain 5 new weapon slots.  If you don't see this as a fair trade then don't take any kits.  It's as simple as that.

I love it when people wander into a thread, completely miss the point and act like they are superior to everyone.

#207 podank

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:32 PM

Lyuben said:

I love it when people wander into a thread, completely miss the point and act like they are superior to everyone.

You of all people should know that I understand the point.  I'm not trying to act superior, I am merely trying to simplify things, since I don't see this as a complicated issue.

#208 Lyuben

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:38 PM

podank said:

You of all people should know that I understand the point.  I'm not trying to act superior, I am merely trying to simplify things, since I don't see this as a complicated issue.

Did you read the OP?

Did you read the contents of the thread?

Because what you did was pretty much regurgitate points already discussed to death in the first few pages.

#209 podank

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 07:41 PM

Lyuben said:

Did you read the OP?

Did you read the contents of the thread?

Because what you did was pretty much regurgitate points already discussed to death in the first few pages.

I read the OP and first couple pages, as well as the last couple pages.  And yes, I know it's been discussed to death, but that's why I'm in disbelief.  I really don't think it's complicated yet here's another 10+ page thread.

#210 Elgareth

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 08:28 PM

podank said:

I read the OP and first couple pages, as well as the last couple pages.  And yes, I know it's been discussed to death, but that's why I'm in disbelief.  I really don't think it's complicated yet here's another 10+ page thread.

Thing is... would it hurt anybody if the engineer would get one "Free Kit Slot"?
Would it hurt engineers? No, those who don't want to use it don't have to.
Would it make the engineer OP? I doubt so, because as people say, you have to switch to it, it frees up one Utility slot, so an engineer isn't infinitely stronger through that change, just more versatile in his utilities when he decides to go kit(s).
Would other classes cry with reason? I doubt so, it's the same arguments every class member throws against every other class: "They can do this better, I can't".
Eles: They get 20 Weapon skills for free, more through Utility Conjures. Engi would then get 10 for free, more through Utility Kits.
Rangers: They get two weapons, utilities, and three Pets which they are fairly free to choose out of... roundabout 36? Each having 4 Extra Skills. Engi would then have two "weapons", utilities, and 4 Toolbelt Skills.
Guardian: Two Weapons, 3(4?) Virtues which they can't choose but which instead always have a passive effect as well, Engi: Two Weapons, 4 Skills to "choose", but no passive effect.
And so on and on. Yes you can't compare classes to one another, but when you try you'll always find all other classes ruling against yours', and all other classes' people find their class sucking against yours'.
Point being: If the engineer had the second slot or not, wouldn't change the complaints or give them more reason.

So the way I see it:
It would make the engineer's builds more versatile, would allow for more builds, would make the engineers' gameplay more interesting while balancing issues, should they occur, can be solved through Number Crunching/Changing.
How many skills you can use doesn't make you stronger or weaker as such, but makes things more interesting IMHO, and that's why I'm afraid that the engineer (especially the Turret Engineer) becomes boring much faster than other classes.

A change which makes engineers more diverse to play while not hurting the balance too much doesn't sound too bad does it? After all, it makes playing AGAINST engineers more diverse/fun as well :)