242 replies to this topic

[Kyonyo]

A lot of editing + hopefully this thread can be closed since discussion is not really progressing just same replies and hew guys arguments between each other ^^

Maybe pve combat is not after all so bad
Big plus to XPhiler he got me somehow convinced with his video

Video:
Check out that it is pretty good ^^

Edited by Kyonyo, 29 April 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Timothy Paradox]

Sigh. I have to agree. That's 1-0 for TERA I'm afraid.

[Lethality]

I will agree with you. Despite the beautiful PvE world they have created, the combat seems destined for twitchy PvP gameplay. It's not tactile or visceral at all, there is no strategy other than to spam.

[KodakMoment]

I don't like how some events favor ranged/magic classes because if you get anywhere near the elite mob of the event you will die in like 2 seconds and yes i am 3 levels higher than the mob

[GustavoM]

This Is no different than TERA. Aiming Is more demanding on TERA, all right, but the skill spam Is always there. Since, hey; you'll be dealing with a massive amount of players... and -mostly- you'll spam something here and there.

[nf_zeta]

not sure what you mean as i myself haven't played the game yet but their is footage of devs playing and its definitely just not spamming. Also even if it was adding a resource would not fix this problem it would only encourage it as instead of using skills based on situation people would find the rotation which works with that resource and simply stick with it.

If you were able to spam skills it could be for two reasons:
1. You were playing low/easy content and therefore got away with it
2. The difficulty of the mobs needs to be raised a bit to encourage using skills at the right time along with probably some minor changes in skills but the combat itself is by no means boring PvP has proved that its just that the PvE part of the game doesn't demand a high lvl of skill as a requisit as is usually the case in MMORPGs

Edited by nf_zeta, 28 April 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Garnatian]

nf_zeta, on 28 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

not sure what you mean as i myself haven't played the game yet but their is footage of devs playing and its definitely just not spamming. Also even if it was adding a resource would not fix this problem it would only encourage it as instead of using skills based on situation people would find the rotation which works with that resource and simply stick with it.

If you were able to spam skills it could be for two reasons:
1. You were playing low/easy content and therefore got away with it
2. The difficulty of the mobs needs to be raised a bit to encourage using skills at the right time.

Anyway, yeah I agree. There really is no benefit to holding back your skills. Spam spam spam is the way to go.

Edited by Garnatian, 28 April 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Kyonyo]

nf_zeta, on 28 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

not sure what you mean as i myself haven't played the game yet but their is footage of devs playing and its definitely just not spamming. Also even if it was adding a resource would not fix this problem it would only encourage it as instead of using skills based on situation people would find the rotation which works with that resource and simply stick with it.

If you were able to spam skills it could be for two reasons:
1. You were playing low/easy content and therefore got away with it
2. The difficulty of the mobs needs to be raised a bit to encourage using skills at the right time along with probably some minor changes in skills but the combat itself is by no means boring PvP has proved that its just that the PvE part of the game doesn't demand a high lvl of skill as a requisit as is usually the case in MMORPGs

You will get my point after u have played the game

[nf_zeta]

Kyonyo, on 28 April 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

You will get my point after u have played the game

lol, if you say so but do you agree or disagree that the combat itself isn't the problem but its compatibility with the current state of PvE, because in the video i watched the dev was watching which skills he was using and whenever he slacked on that because he was commentating he died, granted the mobs he was fighting were 2 lvls above but you can't expect to have PvE over a certain difficulty when the lvls are equal or the player has a lvl advantage especially in the lower lvls and when your not in a elite dynamic event or any content that is meant to be more difficult, arena net never said that spamming would disappear from MMOs as it probably won't, not in the fore-seeable future anyway.

So my question is during your spamming what lvl was the mob and what lvl were you, after all this is a discussion thread so you'll see won't cut it.

Edited by nf_zeta, 28 April 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[Verene]

nf_zeta, on 28 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

not sure what you mean as i myself haven't played the game yet but their is footage of devs playing and its definitely just not spamming. Also even if it was adding a resource would not fix this problem it would only encourage it as instead of using skills based on situation people would find the rotation which works with that resource and simply stick with it.

If you were able to spam skills it could be for two reasons:
1. You were playing low/easy content and therefore got away with it
2. The difficulty of the mobs needs to be raised a bit to encourage using skills at the right time along with probably some minor changes in skills but the combat itself is by no means boring PvP has proved that its just that the PvE part of the game doesn't demand a high lvl of skill as a requisit as is usually the case in MMORPGs

You spam skill 1 all the time in fights...but that's because skill 1 is your auto-attack. That's basically the only spamming you can do because everything else is on a recharge.

[alexsanchez508]

i'm thinking they go with the system they had in GW1. Energy costs and cooldowns.

[Antrasith]

I have to say I kinda agree on the no resources needed tbh, it's a bit too much "hack and slash" for me atm.. But then again, haven't been ingame for too long, so I guess it'll get better..

[Teste]

Garnatian, on 28 April 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Anyway, yeah I agree. There really is no benefit to holding back your skills. Spam spam spam is the way to go.

That's because you are still in the starting zones. If you spam your skills against any enemy outside of the tutorial, you won't be able to use the skills when you actually need them, or when the proper opportunity to use them is there. The "benefit" of holding back is in knowing when it's the best possible opportunity to use each skill - in other words, being a skilled player.

In less words, learn to play. Seriously. Anyone can stand still spamming skills, and that will lead you past the tutorial.

[Brine]

Spam skills the whole game see what happens to you.

[Kyonyo]

Teste, on 28 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

That's because you are still in the starting zones. If you spam your skills against any enemy outside of the tutorial, you won't be able to use the skills when you actually need them, or when the proper opportunity to use them is there. The "benefit" of holding back is in knowing when it's the best possible opportunity to use each skill - in other words, being a skilled player.

In less words, learn to play. Seriously. Anyone can stand still spamming skills, and that will lead you past the tutorial.

Sorry but how much have you really played the game? Only skills what u need to save are dodge, heal + if u got some skills like ''prevent all dmg for 5 sec''
I even could solo 1 boss that could 2 hit me. How? I dodged all of his attack while clicking randomly other skills
'' use the skills when you actually need them'' really what would u need to save? I have not seen or encountered SINGLE fight that is lost because of using all skills (except dodge and heal)

[Kyonyo]

Brine, on 28 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Spam skills the whole game see what happens to you.

I will if I wont get bored while playing I bet it will work 100% sure about it. only think I need to remember is to dodge at right time

[XPhiler]

GW2 combat is button mashing omly if you want it to be button mashing. Like GW1 before it every skill has its best usage time and when its somewhat of a waste. So far I only tried the mesmer but somehow i doubt its different for other professions.

One of my skills gives a bonus to might to allies but does less damage to the others, so if i am alone or surrounded by magic casters the basic attack is actually better. another skill creates a dome that reflects projectile attacks back at the foe again, great for a bunch of range npcs especially if they're clustered, useless if its a bunch of melee npcs. Anyhow I could go on and on, there are a lot of tactical options you have to make.

Sure most normal npcs are easy to kill, you can also have the basic attack autorepeat, it will do the job, but, doing the right attack will 1. get you finished quicker and more important, train you to use the proper attacks when facing harder foe.

So I repeat, its a button masher if you want to be a button masher, the combat depth is there if you choose to ignore it, you got yourself to blame not the game!

[Krazzar]

Uh huh. And FPS games are skill-less because all I can do is left click and have only 3 weapons available.  It's all about use, but the need isn't there in the starter zones.

Edited by unraveled, 28 April 2012 - 08:38 PM.
Text was repeated.

[Kyonyo]

nf_zeta, on 28 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

lol, if you say so but do you agree or disagree that the combat itself isn't the problem but its compatibility with the current state of PvE, because in the video i watched the dev was watching which skills he was using and whenever he slacked on that because he was commentating he died, granted the mobs he was fighting were 2 lvls above but you can't expect to have PvE over a certain difficulty when the lvls are equal or the player has a lvl advantage especially in the lower lvls and when your not in a elite dynamic event or any content that is meant to be more difficult, arena net never said that spamming would disappear from MMOs as it probably won't, not in the fore-seeable future anyway.

So my question is during your spamming what lvl was the mob and what lvl were you, after all this is a discussion thread so you'll see won't cut it.

100% sure that the way combat works is the problem unless there will be radical changes to them and make those skill really worth of saving. Anyways it is hard to explain (at least for me since my English sucks) but you will see it when you test game. I could solo same lvl elite/boss mob by just running away + shooting and dodging his attacks + using other skills right after those were off cd

Edited by Kyonyo, 28 April 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Kyonyo]

XPhiler, on 28 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

GW2 combat is button mashing omly if you want it to be button mashing. Like GW1 before it every skill has its best usage time and when its somewhat of a waste. So far I only tried the mesmer but somehow i doubt its different for other professions.

One of my skills gives a bonus to might to allies but does less damage to the others, so if i am alone or surrounded by magic casters the basic attack is actually better. another skill creates a dome that reflects projectile attacks back at the foe again, great for a bunch of range npcs especially if they're clustered, useless if its a bunch of melee npcs. Anyhow I could go on and on, there are a lot of tactical options you have to make.

Sure most normal npcs are easy to kill, you can also have the basic attack autorepeat, it will do the job, but, doing the right attack will 1. get you finished quicker and more important, train you to use the proper attacks when facing harder foe.

So I repeat, its a button masher if you want to be a button masher, the combat depth is there if you choose to ignore it, you got yourself to blame not the game!

Anyways you should test out other professions. and why? since mesmer is the hardest one. one of only professions that need to save some skills. Test out warrior (easiest one)

[Feriluce]

Timothy Paradox, on 28 April 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Sigh. I have to agree. That's 1-0 for TERA I'm afraid.

Tera is just a hotkey mmo with a targeting reticule. It really doesn't compare to GW2 combat in any way.

Anyway, I kinda felt this way in the beginning, and combat felt a bit repetetive in pve. However I think its actually slowly getting better as I get better as well. Using the correct skill in the correct situation is whats going to have to pull this combat system through.

[XPhiler]

Kyonyo, on 28 April 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Anyways you should test out other professions. and why? since mesmer is the hardest one. one of only professions that need to save some skills. Test out warrior (easiest one)

Or if you're finding warrior too easy, perhaps you should try another profession?
however I am sure that the warrior too has skills that are more useful in certain situations then others.

[Teste]

Kyonyo, on 28 April 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I even could solo 1 boss that could 2 hit me. How? I dodged all of his attack while clicking randomly other skills
'' use the skills when you actually need them'' really what would u need to save? I have not seen or encountered SINGLE fight that is lost because of using all skills (except dodge and heal)

Try playing outside the tutorial.

Example: the engineer has the following rifle skills...

1) Auto attack.

2) Immobilizes one enemy.

3) Does more damage to enemies the closer you are to them.

4) Does damage and pushes you and your foe backwards.

5) Does damage to where you are and leaps you to somewhere else, also doing damage there.

What is going to happen if you just spam those skills? You are going to miss all the effects they have in mobility. What would be a skilled way to use them? If two melee enemies are attacking you, you could immobilize one, use skill 3 when the other is close to you (so you would do more damage), then use skill 4 (getting away from both your target and the other melee enemy that is immobilized behind him), then auto-attacking until the enemy closer to you gets close to you again, use skill 5 to attack this enemy (and hopefully kill him) and jump to the other melee enemy, also damaging him; then using either skill 2 to immobilize the second enemy and retreating or using skill 4 again to keep you two apart, maybe using skill 3 to deal more damage before you use one of those two mobility skills so the enemy is still close to you (and so you would do more damage), and so on.

Spamming would simply do a bit of damage, make you dodge, then do a bit more damage, and make you dodge, and so on until you are out of endurance.

[Lethality]

Teste, on 28 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

That's because you are still in the starting zones. If you spam your skills against any enemy outside of the tutorial, you won't be able to use the skills when you actually need them, or when the proper opportunity to use them is there. The "benefit" of holding back is in knowing when it's the best possible opportunity to use each skill - in other words, being a skilled player.

In less words, learn to play. Seriously. Anyone can stand still spamming skills, and that will lead you past the tutorial.

The tutorial goes on until what level, just to be clear?

[ItStartsAtDusK]

ITT people choose to spam instead of using their skills in the situations they're designed for.

I gaurantee you'll end up a better player if you do the latter. I've been playing a greatsword Guardian the whole beta and it's all about using the right skill at the right time. You have your basic auto-attack combo in 1, use 2 if you have a bunch of allies near you that will benefit from retaliation or a bunch of enemies that you want to burn, 3 if you have a lot of mobs attacking you at once, 4 to close distance yourself, and 5 is a decent ranged attack that pulls an enemy to you.

It's not that GW2's combat sucks; you just suck at it. Stop projecting and get better, because although earlier levels are easy enough to make spamming a viable playstyle, you'll need to use those skills correctly instead of just spamming them later on.

[Teste]

Lethality, on 28 April 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

The tutorial goes on until what level, just to be clear?

Unlike WoW, GW2 does not rely so much on levels. The tutorial ends when you leave the first instance, not when you reach a meaningless level gap. Must be shocking, huh?

[XPhiler]

Lethality, on 28 April 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

The tutorial goes on until what level, just to be clear?

its not a question of tutorial or not, game gets progressively harder, I can tell you the final boss in the norn area was not a walk in the park at all!

anyhow so you people are finding nothing challenging and didnt even die once so far? cause I do find it a bit hard to believe!

[Lethality]

Teste, on 28 April 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Unlike WoW, GW2 does not rely so much on levels. The tutorial ends when you leave the first instance, not when you reach a meaningless level gap. Must be shocking, huh?

In other words, the tutorial is completely useless, and makes the combat frustrating and uninteresting. The "skill unlock" is unbelievably grindy, they don't tell you anything about WHY you should care about weapon swapping, and the obscure skill changes when you simply put your main in your off and your off in your main that you've been using for 10 levels. What's that? Back down to 1 skill.

There are shades of great in GW2, but the biggest problem seems to be that the same guys that made GW1 made it.

[Alesthes]

So basically you spammed casually buttons because you didn't get the role, position, interactions of the varius skill and now you are complaining because the combat is spammy... Fair...

We are finally delivered from that chore of the resource system. The combat is finally frantic, position, and tactical. Finally.

[Lethality]

XPhiler, on 28 April 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

its not a question of tutorial or not, game gets progressively harder, I can tell you the final boss in the norn area was not a walk in the park at all!

anyhow so you people are finding nothing challenging and didnt even die once so far? cause I do find it a bit hard to believe!

Dying != challenging content. Dying mostly comes out of frustration / confusion. Known in game design as "not fun."