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Range vs. Melee - My Problem with Guild Wars 2 Combat

Combat Melee vs. Range Personal Opinion

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#1 Fazicar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:32 PM

There are a lot of things I think Guild Wars 2 does right.  I have enjoyed my weekend thus far, and I think this game has some great potential, but I came across some problems with combat.  So, as of right now I feel like the fact that ranged abilities "hone" towards their target creates an imbalance between melee and ranged weapons.  I am by no means an expert on Guild Wars 2 combat, but I came across a couple of simple issues.

Issue 1:  When wielding a Melee Weapon an opponent can side step or back out of range without using a dodge roll.  As a result my skill fires off and goes on cool down.  When the tables are turned and a character wielding a melee weapon cannot back out of range (due to the nature of a ranged weapon) and as long as they are within an ever widening frontal cone the arrow / mesmer laser / flame strike will "heat seek" to a target.

Issue 2:  The Circle Strafe of doom.  It seems to me, far too easy to kite melee in this game.  Quite often a melee weapon wielder is forced to chase down a ranged weapon wielder with gap-closers, which often result in the melee user rooting themselves in place with the animation (i.e. Earthshaker).  I have read countless posts about the ease of the circle strafe mechanic, and nothing that points to any benefit for melee.  Due to the pesky geometry of a circle, the amount of distance required to side step something at range is much greater than that of sidestepping in melee.

Retort:  Now quite often I have read retorts that claim no class is melee, and that when these situation arise the target should switch to a ranged weapon.  While I can appreciate this suggestion, it instead reinforces my point.  That effective combat is much more difficult to achieve with a melee weapon and you would be better off using ranged.  This suggestion forces me to ask: If this is the case, why do melee weapons exist in the game to begin with?

These issues as well as a few other (such as the proximity based aggro system and latency) seems to create an obvious advantage for the range-preferenced player.

Now as I said before I am no Master of the combat, and I'm not attempting to get a rise out of fans of the system.  I just see this as a bit of constructive criticism, and am wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem?

#2 Wothan

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:42 PM

While I had no problems with it until now as a guardian I have not met a good kiter aswell

But yeah, its way too easy to kite melee, I had to pursue a mesmer through the entirety of battle of kyhlo map just because she would take short curves and my way to jump to her would fall short and my pulling skill roots me and needs clear sight to the target
While I do not refuse to change my weapons when the situation demands it, I prefer not to deviate too far from the character archetype I want

Edited by Wothan, 29 April 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#3 Sol1

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:42 PM

This post completely sums up my opinion of melee in pvp.  Why we are rooted for half a second before using a gap closer is beyond me.  Nor do I understand why I'm rooted in place to execute certain moves (hundered blades).  After several hours of Warrior PvP, I found that I was completely reliant on throw bolas to root the target in place to actually have a successful charge, eviscerate land.

And as stated above, my wish isn't to switch to a ranged weapon.  I wouldn't even have to if I didn't stop for a second before I charged.  That pause is always enough to let them escape.  Not to mention that as an oceanic player the 500ms lag was completely unplayable and I lost a number of fights because all I got was 'miss!' on the screen whilst chasing down circle strafers.  Why can I play other games to west NA servers and get 250 (which is playable imo) yet I couldn't get anywhere near that on the weekend?  I'm happy if this comes down to turning the servers prior to release but for me it's a deal breaker if it isn't fixed as I pvp heavily.

Overall, I loved the game but I just think that it needs a bit of tweaking prior to a successful launch.

#4 h4lcyon

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

View PostWothan, on 29 April 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

While I had no problems with it until now as a guardian I have not met a good kiter aswell

But yeah, its way too easy to kite melee, I had to pursue a mesmer through the entirety of battle of kyhlo map just because she would take short curves and my way to jump to her would fall short and my pulling skill roots me and needs clear sight to the target
While I do not refuse to change my weapons when the situation demands it, I prefer not to deviate too far from the character archetype I want

And yet, the mesmer couldn't kill you. I rolled a warrior after my mesmer, and the damage difference is disheartening to be honest.

#5 Wothan

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:57 PM

View Posth4lcyon, on 29 April 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

And yet, the mesmer couldn't kill you. I rolled a warrior after my mesmer, and the damage difference is disheartening to be honest.

I dropped her to low HP on 1x1, this is why she was running to begin with =P
Mesmers are very very annoying opponents tho, so it just needs a special playstyle

Edited by Wothan, 29 April 2012 - 10:57 PM.


#6 applebeefstew

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:01 PM

Ionno, I've been using two melee weapon sets so far on my Warrior and I've had no problems with it. Strafing and going backwards is a lot slower than me running towards them, or maybe I just haven't met very good kiters. A few times, if they were running and I was chasing then yeah, it was hard to catch up but they couldn't attack when running forward.

But, for warriors at least, we have several ranged skills that cripple as well as gap closers. A leap + bull charge is pretty much guaranteed to reach and just follow up with cripple/immobilize/chill and burst them down.

#7 dirkaderpa

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:09 PM

If the numbers are off, its just a balance issue, melee classes either need to be very resilient or evasive and need to hit a lot harder than ranged classes b/c they are taking more risk, its been done before in countless games.

What annoys me is the skill differential, melee classes have to space and time their attacks, ranged classes just spam and let auto target do the rest. In my time spent as a ranger, I literally couldn't see that much of a difference b/w GW1 and GW2. Then I rolled a Gaurdian and it made a world of difference.

EDIT: ATM, looking at low level pve, there doesn't appear to be a solid reward for the risk of being melee, I'm sure it will be fixed if Anet is half decent at balancing.

Edited by dirkaderpa, 29 April 2012 - 11:11 PM.


#8 Nicholas Plainview

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:22 PM

1. A laggy server hampers melee twice as much as ranged
2. I was never kited once.
3. If you aren't using bolas and bull charge you're not supposed to be GvGing

Edit:

To be quite honest when I was in some form kited.  I just ran away to another point or team mates and the other guy kind of saw how pointless what he was doing was.

Edited by Nicholas Plainview, 29 April 2012 - 11:24 PM.


#9 Fazicar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:53 PM

Due to the "wideness-i-tude" ™ of ranged weapon "cones of honing" ™ a competent ranged weapon wielder can strafe at full speed away from a target and still fire on them in my experience.  So the speed of back peddling becomes less of an issue, if that makes any sense. :)

#10 Fatalis

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:56 PM

Melee has the benefit that while at times it may be hard to connect, when you do, the other person is essentially finished.

When I played Thief or Warrior, if I could land my hits such that you're CCed even for a little while, I could unload a huge amount of damage.

#11 stridah

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:59 PM

2x dagger thief =)

OWNS! lol...

I think the game will go more towards range, cause in WVW keep sieges just kinda naturally create more people who want to be ranged.

Melee is fine for PVE of PVP though, i prefer the daggers to the duel pistols..i believe each class has a form of range? (dont quote me) so knowing when to switch is very important.

#12 ccnew

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:02 AM

Well melee and range both have their pros and cons. For melee, if you can get into the correct range against a range player, you are bound to win due to high damage. However, get too far away from the ranged profession and feel its wrath.

Similarly on a ranged player, stay away and you can do great harm. However, let them get too close and you will quickly go down.

Which is easier to play is up to you to decide. Also, every profession has ranged options so you can change based on the situation.

#13 WickedSick11

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:03 AM

i find range weapon OP than melee in PvE. i took down several boss without taking any dmg but with melee, i got instant kill

#14 Lyphen

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:09 AM

Melee is pretty terrible in PvE as well. The only way you can really make out the big baddie in a dynamic event is by following all the particle effects on top of it. But you're so close that they're essentially blinding and you can never notice what the mob is doing (charge attacks, preparing for a stun or AOE).

Edited by Lyphen, 30 April 2012 - 12:09 AM.


#15 Fazicar

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:16 AM

To address the idea of Melee's increased damage I would say that, in my personal experience, the difference in damage is not so drastic, in PVP, Perhaps a 50 to 100 percent increase from range.  Now I know that sounds like a lot, but due to Melee mechanics even with your increased damage, statistically you'll be hitting less often then a ranged weapon wielder would.  So much so that it off sets any bonus to melee.  I understand that movement impairing effects exist but I've seen very few that last longer than four seconds.  I have never seen anyone in PVP devastated 1v1 in four seconds.  After which that ranged player can easily stafe out of effective range forcing the melee player to burn at least one cool-down while having not changed their own dps output.  

If the ranged opponent you are facing down stands there and lets you beat them down then I don't know what to tell you.  My scenario I guess comes up between two competent players using the full capacity of their abilities.  :)

#16 Butcher

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:17 AM

I have the same problem in PvE.

When going up against some mobs, it's extremely hard to dodge or sidestep their charged attacks. Some mobs don't even have an animation, they just wtf blast you with a one shot attack that you'd never have a chance to dodge. While my ass is on the floor getting pummeled by a Veteran mob, the casters are in the back getting no aggro at all. It's pretty sad actually, because you'd expect the mob to change their focus, but no, melee classes are obviously public enemy #1 even when they're downed.

I did an escort quest today in Queensdale (the one where you escort the Asura and her Moas), I didn't even bother trying to fight the Scritt mobs because the first time I tried I got my ass handed to me in less than 1 second. I just let the casters do all the work. It was pretty pathetic.

A few things I'd like to see melee classes get:
  • More damage. Casters own us on the damage scale, while we have nothing.
  • The ability to do 3 consecutive dodge rolls, or a faster regenerating energy bar.
  • Gap closers on a shorter CD, save for Greatsword Guardians. They kick ass.
At least 2 of those would be nice.

#17 Wilhelm Stark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:42 AM

If everyone was ranged, there would be no meatshields on the front lines. Think about it.

#18 Sausajoooz

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostButcher, on 30 April 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

I have the same problem in PvE.

When going up against some mobs, it's extremely hard to dodge or sidestep their charged attacks. Some mobs don't even have an animation, they just wtf blast you with a one shot attack that you'd never have a chance to dodge. While my ass is on the floor getting pummeled by a Veteran mob, the casters are in the back getting no aggro at all. It's pretty sad actually, because you'd expect the mob to change their focus, but no, melee classes are obviously public enemy #1 even when they're downed.

I did an escort quest today in Queensdale (the one where you escort the Asura and her Moas), I didn't even bother trying to fight the Scritt mobs because the first time I tried I got my ass handed to me in less than 1 second. I just let the casters do all the work. It was pretty pathetic.

A few things I'd like to see melee classes get:
  • More damage. Casters own us on the damage scale, while we have nothing.
  • The ability to do 3 consecutive dodge rolls, or a faster regenerating energy bar.
  • Gap closers on a shorter CD, save for Greatsword Guardians. They kick ass.
At least 2 of those would be nice.

There are no melee classes or ranged classes, therefore your solutions dont really make much sense. Bring a ranged weapon and a melee weapon, best advice so far.

#19 SKYeXile

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:01 AM

View PostButcher, on 30 April 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

I have the same problem in PvE.

When going up against some mobs, it's extremely hard to dodge or sidestep their charged attacks. Some mobs don't even have an animation, they just wtf blast you with a one shot attack that you'd never have a chance to dodge. While my ass is on the floor getting pummeled by a Veteran mob, the casters are in the back getting no aggro at all. It's pretty sad actually, because you'd expect the mob to change their focus, but no, melee classes are obviously public enemy #1 even when they're downed.

I did an escort quest today in Queensdale (the one where you escort the Asura and her Moas), I didn't even bother trying to fight the Scritt mobs because the first time I tried I got my ass handed to me in less than 1 second. I just let the casters do all the work. It was pretty pathetic.

A few things I'd like to see melee classes get:
  • More damage. Casters own us on the damage scale, while we have nothing.
  • The ability to do 3 consecutive dodge rolls, or a faster regenerating energy bar.
  • Gap closers on a shorter CD, save for Greatsword Guardians. They kick ass.
At least 2 of those would be nice.


yea the dev's need to play dragons nest and see how action games do boss fights, GW2 is really fail in comparison. does not help thats its got clunky game play and animations either.

#20 Lightingbird

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:03 AM

Personally,

I enjoyed it.  I've almost always played a archer in mmo's and I loved being able to use a melee weapon with proficiency.  So far I think the game is OK.  Its still in beta so I'm sure some polishing will still take place.

So lets relax, wait to see what comes out, and then learn our classes we chose to play.  :)

#21 MrIllusion

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:13 AM

I had this concern before the BWE. Now that I've played it, I agree completely. I ran with a Greatsword/Rifle Warrior. But after unlocking all the weapon skills I realised there really wasn't any incentive for me to switch to Greatsword.

I encountered only two occassions when it made more sense to use my greatsword; being surrounded in small rooms (first few quests in Human storyline), and narrow footways where I can't kite (platforming puzzle in Norn area).

Personally I don't think increasing the damage is the answer. A lot of potential for whining and cries for nerf. I'd prefer if every melee weapon has some sort of block/parry ability on decent cooldowns. As it is only certain weapons give you that (Riposte for Warrior+Swords, Counter for Mace+Warrior).

Hell, make it like Dodge, but give us another bar for that!

#22 Yphex

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:18 AM

The only thing I found was that I ended up playing all the supposed "melee" classes with ranged weapons.

Which on the one hand means you can get the job done on range with every calls no problem but also means that if I acutally prefer the feeling of melee combat I'm kinda beeped.

#23 kDev

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:20 AM

I played a LOT of pvp with many classes and I always enjoyed melle more personally. And that's weird since I'm almost ALWAYS a ranged class, In fact I can't remember ever before using a melee class. (except something like LoL) Anyway in most cases I found that 2-5 skills were situational and utilities and normal attacks seemed to be the most useful,  I rarely had somebody able to kite away from me and I made sure of it with each build. However there were some awesome ranged players and they gave me a hell of a challenge, though when using a dagger/dagger thief or sword/dagger ranger, nobody really came close.

Edited by kDev, 30 April 2012 - 08:23 AM.


#24 Leeto

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:23 AM

This isnt your normal mmorpg wheres mellee/range classes, every class can have ranged weapon beside guardian and i realy doubt that guardians have problems with kiting. Getting kited? switch weapon.

#25 Garnatian

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:24 AM

The really need a "lock-on" mechanic for Melee weapons. It's rather unfair that Ranged weapons get this mechanic and Melee does not.

Though this is just the problem with a more versatile, "realistic" combat. Ultimately if you had a choice, you wouldn't take a melee weapon over a ranged weapon in 99% of circumstances.

Nothing can really be done, Ranged > Melee and since there is no aiming required for Ranged weapons, it just makes them even better.

If a good Ranged player goes against a good Melee player, Ranger will win EVERY time.

Also, anyone who suggest they run a Melee Weapon and a Ranged weapon is just an idiot. By even having a Melee weapon equipped you're limiting yourself with more useless skill. Your best bet is to simply run 2 sets of Ranged weapons.

Edited by Garnatian, 30 April 2012 - 08:32 AM.


#26 Saza

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:29 AM

I really wanted to have sword/dagger and shortbow to be my weapons for my thief.

As I leveled more in PvE I started feeling like I was putting in more and more effort to not do as well and ended up using my shortbow most of the time. I built my thief around dodging and evade skills and I found I spent so much time staying away from melee range I needed something else. I ended up with pistol/pistol and shortbow; conditions plus range and the choice between single target focus and aoe was wonderful. As sad as I was to give up my favorite weapon set, I did a lot better once I switched.

I can't wait to have more practice though.

Edited by Sazasmash, 30 April 2012 - 08:32 AM.


#27 MrIllusion

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:30 AM

View PostLeeto, on 30 April 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

This isnt your normal mmorpg wheres mellee/range classes, every class can have ranged weapon beside guardian and i realy doubt that guardians have problems with kiting. Getting kited? switch weapon.

View PostSausajoooz, on 30 April 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

There are no melee classes or ranged classes, therefore your solutions dont really make much sense. Bring a ranged weapon and a melee weapon, best advice so far.

This is really not the point of the issue.

#28 Leeto

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:32 AM

View PostMrIllusion, on 30 April 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

This is really not the point of the issue.

Theres no issue cause theres no mellee classes in the game.

#29 Vinos_Y_Caballos

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:32 AM

Can't wait for the next beta when Anet has improved it. Though I highly enjoyed it this weekend.
The only thing I am thinking about is how melee is going to work out. I played as guardian and warrior most of the time and even though I dodged quite some I still took quite some damage and didn't effectively dodge many attacks. But I assume it comes with practice.

Also regarding dodging. Sometimes while in combat you get disoriented with your movement, as in you try to move in several directions in quick succession. While doing that sometimes you press a direction quickly enough in succession that it becomes a dodge movement (tap the key twice in the direction you want to go).

So perhaps a seperate key in place, merely for dodging, could give you a greater control over its usage.

But then again, perhaps it just comes with practice.

#30 viespea

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:33 AM

I played warriror and it was great: rifle for starting an attack and great sword for finishing the foes and AoE damage, when its the case. It waorked great in PvP and DE. Also i go for the crits, i had 86% crit chance :-) ( i nvested in Arms Trait ) . I love the warriror, i killed every other class and i found out that Ele was de hardest to kill.