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#331 Illein

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:14 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 04 November 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Actually graphical detail and its effect on playability is still a major development issue, even for single player games. For example I know you’ve noticed that in Skyrim armor is only four parts, where in the past it was five or more. This begs the question; why? Well according to an interview it was necessary to get the level of graphical detail and number of displayed characters they wanted in the game.

It isn’t just an issue of texture quality and mesh complexity; it is also an issue of how many objects you’re displaying, and if your armor set is several parts (like in GW2 where armor has seven displayed parts) you take a performance hit. This is especially true of multiplayer games. For example if you have ten GW2 characters on screen the game is actually rendering seventy armor objects, plus weapons, plus custom faces, plus the environment, etcetera.

This can really add up and all but destroy your attempts at optimization, so for an MMO you need to accept a few necessities. Typically this means a more stylized art style or several cut corners in terms of graphical detail such as armor sets being comprised of fewer parts, fewer cosmetic options for characters (SWTOR), or even absurdly large weapons and armor (WoW) because the game doesn’t have to render things obscured by those comically over-sized shoulder pads.

You're raising a few interesting points and I could agree with a lot of it. Of course sacrificing graphics for performance related solutions is part of every game we've come to enjoy - obviously for MMOs there's also the concept of "the more people can play it, the more potential buyers we've got".

HOWEVER and that's a big however, mind the caps, when you deliver a MMO in the year 2011 that is completely sub-par of anything else there currently is in terms of graphics and it STILL runs like the entire engine is powered by 2 hamsters in their wheels - you're definitely doing something wrong (SWTOR).

For all I care, they could create something atmospherically and graphically stimulating with an option to strip the game down to its bare necessities whenever you've got grand scale battles or anything of the sort. Hell, if I wouldn't see ANY armor on my opponents in WvW as it currently is in Guild Wars 2 - but instead see their MODELS as a stick-figure representation of their usual look, it'd still beat the crap out of not seeing them at all ;)

#332 Arkham Creed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostIllein, on 04 November 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

You're raising a few interesting points and I could agree with a lot of it. Of course sacrificing graphics for performance related solutions is part of every game we've come to enjoy - obviously for MMOs there's also the concept of "the more people can play it, the more potential buyers we've got".

HOWEVER and that's a big however, mind the caps, when you deliver a MMO in the year 2011 that is completely sub-par of anything else there currently is in terms of graphics and it STILL runs like the entire engine is powered by 2 hamsters in their wheels - you're definitely doing something wrong (SWTOR).

For all I care, they could create something atmospherically and graphically stimulating with an option to strip the game down to its bare necessities whenever you've got grand scale battles or anything of the sort. Hell, if I wouldn't see ANY armor on my opponents in WvW as it currently is in Guild Wars 2 - but instead see their MODELS as a stick-figure representation of their usual look, it'd still beat the crap out of not seeing them at all ;)

Yes but you're doing an apples to oranges comparison. It isn't really apropreate to compare a single player game like Skyrim or whatever else to a game wherein it is expected to constantly display several times as many characters and objects on screen of so many different variable forms. For example if you have ten characters on screen in Skyrim only one of them is custom, and likely not even displayed due to most players preferring first person perspectives. However in an MMO with ten characters there is a lot more data being processed because of how many custom elements to those characters there are.

Put simply; it isn't fair to compare an MMO to a single player game because the MMO has to deal with dozens, if not hundreds, of times as much information for every frame displayed. You shouldn't be looking at TESO as it compares to Skyrim or even Oblivion; you should be comparing it ONLY to other MMOs. Due to the nature of programming and rendering it would be more appropriate to compare the graphics of an MMO to those of a RTS, rather than a single player RPG, and even that is flawed because those RTS objects are all copy/paste templates with different colors driven by simplistic AI rather than fully custom avatars controlled by players.

#333 Illein

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:15 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 04 November 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Yes but you're doing an apples to oranges comparison. It isn't really apropreate to compare a single player game like Skyrim or whatever else to a game wherein it is expected to constantly display several times as many characters and objects on screen of so many different variable forms. For example if you have ten characters on screen in Skyrim only one of them is custom, and likely not even displayed due to most players preferring first person perspectives. However in an MMO with ten characters there is a lot more data being processed because of how many custom elements to those characters there are.

Put simply; it isn't fair to compare an MMO to a single player game because the MMO has to deal with dozens, if not hundreds, of times as much information for every frame displayed. You shouldn't be looking at TESO as it compares to Skyrim or even Oblivion; you should be comparing it ONLY to other MMOs. Due to the nature of programming and rendering it would be more appropriate to compare the graphics of an MMO to those of a RTS, rather than a single player RPG, and even that is flawed because those RTS objects are all copy/paste templates with different colors driven by simplistic AI rather than fully custom avatars controlled by players.

Oh I wasn't comparing it to Skyrim. Actually I only compared it to SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 since the beginning of this discussion. The only thing I said that could have been taken that way - is that it's particularly popular for MMO producers to make sure everyone understands the limitations of their particular niche product.

And most of us do, I'd say. It might just be a personal thing with me and that engine, but you can't tell me that the HERO Engine is up to date, I just don't believe there's nothing better out there that would cater to modern MMO standards but doesn't look like Dungeon Keeper 1 in its hay day. ;)

Actually, an acquaintance of mine wanted to start developing his own MMO about 5 years ago (the company he works for, only does architectural programs/city simulators and all that kind of rather dry material) based on H.P. Lovecraft novels and the Cthulhu Mythos (if you don't know what I am talking about, google it, amazon it - order it, horror/fantasy books) and he was looking at exactly that engine to do it with.

According to himself, it failed because of royalty fee issues to make it true, but now if that 1 guy who I'd probably declare as "moderately wealthy" could afford to buy into that engine for his own personal little universe to play god in and shape it according to his imagination - I REALLY doubt this is a state-of-the-art deal for companies such as Bethesda and those who play in its league of developers.

Edited by Illein, 04 November 2012 - 09:15 PM.


#334 Arkham Creed

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:29 PM

View PostIllein, on 04 November 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Oh I wasn't comparing it to Skyrim. Actually I only compared it to SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 since the beginning of this discussion. The only thing I said that could have been taken that way - is that it's particularly popular for MMO producers to make sure everyone understands the limitations of their particular niche product.

And most of us do, I'd say. It might just be a personal thing with me and that engine, but you can't tell me that the HERO Engine is up to date, I just don't believe there's nothing better out there that would cater to modern MMO standards but doesn't look like Dungeon Keeper 1 in its hay day. ;)

Actually, an acquaintance of mine wanted to start developing his own MMO about 5 years ago (the company he works for, only does architectural programs/city simulators and all that kind of rather dry material) based on H.P. Lovecraft novels and the Cthulhu Mythos (if you don't know what I am talking about, google it, amazon it - order it, horror/fantasy books) and he was looking at exactly that engine to do it with.

According to himself, it failed because of royalty fee issues to make it true, but now if that 1 guy who I'd probably declare as "moderately wealthy" could afford to buy into that engine for his own personal little universe to play god in and shape it according to his imagination - I REALLY doubt this is a state-of-the-art deal for companies such as Bethesda and those who play in its league of developers.

Ah I see your point. However I would still question the validity of the term “modern MMO standards” in light of the fact that the vast majority of both industry professionals and consumers still compare all MMOs to a standard set nearly a decade ago. Clearly graphical quality is one of the least important features of a MMO, and to be frank you are trying to hold to a standard that has never been met because it has never existed. There is no question that there have been a few really good looking MMOs out there. And also no question that nearly every one of them has failed miserably.

#335 Symbiont

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:26 PM



#336 ShadeMoon

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostSymbiont, on 08 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:



Best vid yet and very convincing, let's see what the haters say about it, most will find something wrong. If player can't get their head around the fact that this isn't TES SP but an MMO then they will never be convinced and should stick to the SP TES games.

#337 Symbiont

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:41 PM

View PostArkham Creed, on 03 November 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

The game is still in alpha and it has already been confirmed that those are not the final character models. So don't jump to conclusions. I mean honestly; what is it with MMO players and knee-jerk reactions? We sometimes say "beta is beta," but this is ALPHA. Calm the heck down. Does no one remember what Guild Wars looked like in alpha?

http://fireden.net/w...-in-Tyria6.jpeg
http://www.rpgamer.c...uildwars001.jpg

well in case of GW2 alpha, it comes in no surprise they changed the graphics. because the alpha looked worse then gw1.
not so much for the elder scroll online, it looks like pretty much what the final characters/world will look like.

View PostShadeMoon, on 08 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Best vid yet and very convincing, let's see what the haters say about it, most will find something wrong. If player can't get their head around the fact that this isn't TES SP but an MMO then they will never be convinced and should stick to the SP TES games.

you've watched almost 10 minutes in record tempo. i see many wrongs btw, also they aren't being specific and very vague (marketing)
and obviously a lot of wrongs aren't being discussed by the developers.

#338 Lufi

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:49 PM

I'm big fan of the series and will definitely buy it but to be honest, graphins is kinda 2009 (not game deciding factor but could be better) and combat so far looks terrible, hope they will improve it.

#339 creed3737

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:52 PM

Had to create an account just to comment on this, has noone else noticed in that last video they have lifted most of the features straight from the GW2 promo videos? The only unique feature is they are not using server shards (which is pretty cool), the questing, the world pvp, the world changes (werewolves attacking a village instead of centaures) are all highlights from the GW2 promotions.

#340 jirayasan

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:56 PM

TESO looks awesome, mix of Tera and GW2 combat. The PvP seems better than GW2 WvWvW just by looking at the video. I think GW2 WvWvW failed because of the "P2W" system, you have to spend 10gold on an upgrade or 2-15 gold on ballistas and shit. If they had a currency system for WvWvW that would be better.


Edited by jirayasan, 08 November 2012 - 04:56 PM.


#341 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

Hmm I was pleasantly surprised by this video but still some concerning points for me:
  • I hope the art/graphics still change because now this really doesn't feel like TES, but more like Warhammer with a different setting.
  • All the combat we saw in this vid seemed very boring, just standing toe to toe with mobs.
    Yes I know there is blocking and they showed it twice, but apart from that, it seems really boring.
  • There is something weird with the player models, they are all so tiny/small?
    Am I alone at this?
  • That megaserver, it souns very nice in theory, but how will it work at launch?
    Will you be able to select your friends before launch or will you only be able to do that after launch?
    And how will it work, at some point your "area" will be full and what then?
Positive things:
  • I saw some very amazing areas.
  • The big WvW zone (from the small part we've seen now) looked much more alive than GW2's WvW.
    Don't know why exactly, but it had those small buildings, inside the keep were much more mundane stuff on the ground and all,... It looks like a real battleground.
Conclusion:

They seem to have listened alot to Anet about some very nice stuff, I just wished they followed them in more aspects.
And if this game has a sub fee, I will not even think about playing it.

#342 jirayasan

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

^ Indeed. The problems i had with the video was players look to thin and small and no real look on combat, it looked a bit static as you said with a few movements.

They said more videos will come and they will explain everything more in depth.

#343 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:09 PM

View Postcreed3737, on 08 November 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Had to create an account just to comment on this, has noone else noticed in that last video they have lifted most of the features straight from the GW2 promo videos? The only unique feature is they are not using server shards (which is pretty cool), the questing, the world pvp, the world changes (werewolves attacking a village instead of centaures) are all highlights from the GW2 promotions.

It's what alot of people have been saying since they first announced it!
But don't you dare saying that on their FB page, or anywhere because then you'll get called GW2 fanboy, hater, or just plain liar.. :)


View Postjirayasan, on 08 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

TESO looks awesome, mix of Tera and GW2 combat. The PvP seems better than GW2 WvWvW just by looking at the video. I think GW2 WvWvW failed because of the "P2W" system, you have to spend 10gold on an upgrade or 2-15 gold on ballistas and shit. If they had a currency system for WvWvW that would be better.



Yeah cause they told so much already about their WvW.
What we know:
  • Huge battles.
  • Catapults, ballistas,..
  • Highest ranked person on winning team will be emperor untill defeated.
That's it.
You can't possibly know that their system is already better.

View Postjirayasan, on 08 November 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

^ Indeed. The problems i had with the video was players look to thin and small and no real look on combat, it looked a bit static as you said with a few movements.

They said more videos will come and they will explain everything more in depth.

To be frank, I just can't return to old MMO's anymore after playing GW2.
The events, the active combat (in most cases), the group play,...
As far as we know, and seen in this video, TES:O is a step back.

Edited by Gilles VI, 08 November 2012 - 05:07 PM.


#344 Blazer

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:18 PM

I found the video to be very vague..
The only thing's they made straight are holy trinity, game starts at level 50 (he even said it..), character models look more like rift/wow then TES.
Fighting system may sound nice but the overall moving of characters looked really sloppy..

#345 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:22 PM

View PostBlazer, on 08 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

I found the video to be very vague..
The only thing's they made straight are holy trinity, game starts at level 50 (he even said it..), character models look more like rift/wow then TES.
Fighting system may sound nice but the overall moving of characters looked really sloppy..

Same feeling here.
Only real positive thing is the environment for me, I saw some very nice scenes in the video.

#346 Own Age Myname

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:46 PM

Great video, vague but shows some great visuals. If you really think that looks like 2009 graphics...well I can't guess what you think GW2 looks like. Either way, the graphics don't make a game and those visual are more then sufficient. Now hopefully the gameplay is the same. Because that combat looks very clunky and that will be a huge turnoff if it stays this way.

Edited by Own Age Myname, 08 November 2012 - 05:47 PM.


#347 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:51 PM

View PostOwn Age Myname, on 08 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Great video, vague but shows some great visuals. If you really think that looks like 2009 graphics...well I can't guess what you think GW2 looks like. Either way, the graphics don't make a game and those visual are more then sufficient. Now hopefully the gameplay is the same. Because that combat looks very clunky and that will be a huge turnoff if it stays this way.

If you really wanna compare GW2 to TES:O

Posted Image
Posted Image

First google in-game pic from both games, I know what I prefer..

#348 el hefe

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:59 PM

ES games have never had vibrant colors.  play guild wars 2 for an hour then log into skyrim.  it's like playing a game in black and white.  gw2 is more cartoony than realistic.  TESO is more realistic than cartoony.

#349 SunRoamer

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

View Postel hefe, on 08 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

ES games have never had vibrant colors.  play guild wars 2 for an hour then log into skyrim.  it's like playing a game in black and white.  gw2 is more cartoony than realistic.  TESO is more realistic than cartoony.

TES yes, TESO no.
Did you have a look at the screens Gilles posted? TESO clearly is the one looking more "cartoony" ;)

I wouldn't call it "2009 graphics" either, the actual graphics might be better than GW2's for all I know... in the end, it's a question of the aesthetic, and many people don't like TESO too much in that regard because
a: it's nothing like the usual (desaturated, gritty, realistic) TES aesthetic
b: it imitated the "cartoony" style most MMOs use.

Edited by SunRoamer, 08 November 2012 - 08:59 PM.


#350 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

Nice to hear some more details about this game.   It sounds very promising.   Shared XP.  No stupid 40 button UI skill bars.  Role customization.  Content through exploration.   If they pull this off, it could really help the MMO genre evolve eve further away from the garbage mechanics of the past.

I had a bit worry when they said  "Level 50 is where the game opens up" but at least PvP is open to all levels.   Maybe they want to avoid all the whining GW2 has gotten about 'no-end game' from people who don't grasp it's not about the level cap it's about playing the game.  This line defines the end game clearly and maybe they can make it work without the bait-and-switch gameplay seen in other MMOs.

I'll admit this has gotten my attention.  Excellent graphics and developers who seem to be talking sense. I think I'll start following this game.   But I don't think it could make me stop playing GW2.  

View Postcreed3737, on 08 November 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Had to create an account just to comment on this, has noone else noticed in that last video they have lifted most of the features straight from the GW2 promo videos? The only unique feature is they are not using server shards (which is pretty cool), the questing, the world pvp, the world changes (werewolves attacking a village instead of centaures) are all highlights from the GW2 promotions.
I take that as a sign of how GW2 is shaping the MMO genre.   I wouldn't be surprised if dynamic, exploration-based content becomes the standard for MMO games as much as the class trinity was for the previous generation of game.  

The mega server does sound interesting.   I wonder if we'll be able to actually see all characters on the server like one does in EVE or if it clever use of a kind of overlapping servers where you may not be able see all the people that are not in your group.

Edit - I forgot the game has cat-headed people Khajiit.   Hmmm, that's a definite minus in my book.   One of the things I liked about GW2 was that the charr weren't just human bodies with a feline head and paws slapped on them.  

Ah well, I'm still interested in seeing if Bethesda/Zenimax can pull off what they say.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 08 November 2012 - 09:52 PM.


#351 Symbiont

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:33 PM

View Postel hefe, on 08 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

ES games have never had vibrant colors.  play guild wars 2 for an hour then log into skyrim.  it's like playing a game in black and white.  gw2 is more cartoony than realistic.  TESO is more realistic than cartoony.

hyper realism is what they called it for skyrim and i love it. there are vibrant colors in skyrim; have you seen their night skies? i think skyrim has a great contrast between vibrant and sombre (for a lack of a better term), which really adds to the experience, imo.

#352 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

He is right when he talks about TES being more realistic.

But just look at the pics I posted, TES:O went the cartoony way, like so many other MMO's.
This just isn't TES anymore..

#353 Tenicord

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

I think it looks fantastic. It looks way more immersive than Guild Wars 2 imo. GW2 has a beautiful art style no doubt, but I feel a lot of it is lost when exploring the world. This looks more like a world that I would enjoy exploring and hanging out in.

Time will tell, but the video they released today has gotten me excited. Can't wait to hear more. Sounds like a cross between GW2 and EQ which is a good thing imo.

#354 blindude

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:50 PM

hmm i like what i saw but i have 2 issues.First is the combat which frankly felt awkward like any traditional mmo..no sence of hitting and the spellcasting was average.Though its essentially just an animation issue i suppose so its not that important for me,unless we get back to homing projectiles and registering melee hits when the enemy has blinked miles away..ages ago.
Second is that i cant get that mega server concept and the world pvp.How can you have world pvp when people would hop weteween the shards based on player population and the other variables they say in the vid?

#355 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:56 PM

View Postblindude, on 08 November 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

hmm i like what i saw but i have 2 issues.First is the combat which frankly felt awkward like any traditional mmo..no sence of hitting and the spellcasting was average.Though its essentially just an animation issue i suppose so its not that important for me,unless we get back to homing projectiles and registering melee hits when the enemy has blinked miles away..ages ago.
Second is that i cant get that mega server concept and the world pvp.How can you have world pvp when people would hop weteween the shards based on player population and the other variables they say in the vid?

The 3 way PvP is based on faction, not server :)
It's like Alliance vs Horde in WoW, instead of Server vs Server in GW2.

View PostTenicord, on 08 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

I think it looks fantastic. It looks way more immersive than Guild Wars 2 imo. GW2 has a beautiful art style no doubt, but I feel a lot of it is lost when exploring the world. This looks more like a world that I would enjoy exploring and hanging out in.

Time will tell, but the video they released today has gotten me excited. Can't wait to hear more. Sounds like a cross between GW2 and EQ which is a good thing imo.

I feel the contrary :/
It feels so cartoony, plain to me. Lke I've seen it a hundred times before in other MMO's.

#356 blindude

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:59 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 08 November 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

The 3 way PvP is based on faction, not server :)
It's like Alliance vs Horde in WoW, instead of Server vs Server in GW2.
Yeah i got that :)
But still its a mega server.You take a keep ,you log out and then you join in again only to find a complete different faction owning it cause the system changed your server.And thats unavoidable UNLESS they force some permanency on the shard you play.Which is essentially a server situation,just masked so that you have no idea where you ended up with.
Well the no idea part is over exaggeration but you get the point.

#357 el hefe

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:52 AM

View Postblindude, on 08 November 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

hmm i like what i saw but i have 2 issues.First is the combat which frankly felt awkward like any traditional mmo..no sence of hitting and the spellcasting was average.Though its essentially just an animation issue i suppose so its not that important for me,unless we get back to homing projectiles and registering melee hits when the enemy has blinked miles away..ages ago.
Second is that i cant get that mega server concept and the world pvp.How can you have world pvp when people would hop weteween the shards based on player population and the other variables they say in the vid?

players are assigned to  a specific instance of cyrodiiil.  they will always fight with and against the same players.  cyrodiil is also persistent.  it never resets.  if your faction takes a keep it will yours forever.  until someone takes it back.

#358 Own Age Myname

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:03 AM

View PostTenicord, on 08 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

I think it looks fantastic. It looks way more immersive than Guild Wars 2 imo. GW2 has a beautiful art style no doubt, but I feel a lot of it is lost when exploring the world. This looks more like a world that I would enjoy exploring and hanging out in.

Time will tell, but the video they released today has gotten me excited. Can't wait to hear more. Sounds like a cross between GW2 and EQ which is a good thing imo.

Yep thinking the exact same thing mix between EQ and GW2 which is awesome. Like I said work on the stiff animations and I'm sold.

#359 Voison

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:03 AM

I hope its free to play, GW2 has spoiled me. :/

Edited by Voison, 09 November 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[TL] Voison ~ 내 원수,에 대한 경례
Voison ~ Asura ~ 80 ~ Warrior ~
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#360 XgreatArtist

XgreatArtist

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:26 AM

TBH i want Elder scrolls MMO's graphics to be like skyrim. i dont like those bright cartoony graphics. Skyrim has all the right graphics for TES in the 2012 era. Same as Oblivion having the right graphics for 2006.
And morrowind. Oh morrowind <3

Edited by XgreatArtist, 09 November 2012 - 09:26 AM.





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