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Weapon Swaps & Combos


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#1 Roq

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 08:14 AM

Firstly, I reckon that the primary (and maybe even only - I hope) purpose of allowing weapon swapping between two sets of weapons is to change from skills appropriate at longer range to skills appropriate at shorter range. Eric Flannum has already hinted that this might be the case:

- Sceptre&Focus skills for ele will be more appropriate for short range, whilst staff will have long range skills
- The only examples i've seen of a warrior swapping weapons is between rifle or bow and melee weapon
- Why only 2 Weapon sets allowed - except that it maps nicely to ranged/melee swapping?

Secondly, cross weapon set combinations between two sets of melee weapons seems an unrealistic, cumbersome and unnecessary mechanism. Not to mention that if you are carrying two melee sets around you have no ranged option. I mean would you really start bashing someone with a great sword and then suddenly pull out a huge hammer from your knapsack, then put it back and continue with the great sword? Seems unlikely to me.

So I reckon by cross weapon set combos, Eric might mean something like this, for example:

1) You take out you bow and hit a mob with the skill "body shot" that inflicts cracked armor.
2) When the mob gets into range you swap to sword and hit it with a skill that gives you adrenaline if your opponent has cracked armor.

And not something like this:

1) You hit someone up with a sword
2) You switch to a hammer to stun them
3) You switch back to a sword

It's speculative, but maybe Anet won't even allow toons to equip two melee sets.

Edited by Roq, 11 May 2010 - 08:39 AM.


#2 mysticforce

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 08:26 AM

Well will have Attunements also to switch skills

#3 Chalky

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:13 AM

I think a cooldown or "cast time" for switching could be used to balance this fairly easily.

#4 Grazl

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 09:43 AM

Quote

It's speculative, but maybe Anet won't even allow toons to equip two melee sets.

Why? I would like to get a greatsword and 1Axe + 1sword as set of weapons on my Warrior. Why Anet would prevent this?? I thought they wouldn't like be restrictive ...
I also want to get greatsword + rifle, so I hope there is a trait to get one more weapon set slot ^^

#5 Minwa

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:11 AM

I would much rather see swapping more, rather than less. The more tactical options, the better. And weapon swapping for energy in GW1 was a fantastic metric of monk skill, for one.

#6 Lyssa

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:16 AM

Grazl said:

Why? I would like to get a greatsword and 1Axe + 1sword as set of weapons on my Warrior. Why Anet would prevent this?? I thought they wouldn't like be restrictive ...
I also want to get greatsword + rifle, so I hope there is a trait to get one more weapon set slot ^^

The impression that i've gotten is that some proffesions can have more weapon sets than others but i'm really not expecting to see us get that many.

If they gave players too many slots then there wont be much strategy or 'buldcrafting' needed when you're out in in town. Which if you ask me is a bad thing. While we'd be having more freedom we're losing more of the fun.

#7 Danzo Dattori

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:45 AM

well I dnt think we're gonna have a devil may cry situation, where you switch ur weapons like three times a second to rack up your combo points XD

#8 Roq

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:48 AM

Minwa said:

I would much rather see swapping more, rather than less. The more tactical options, the better. And weapon swapping for energy in GW1 was a fantastic metric of monk skill, for one.

In GW1 you couldn't switch between *combat* weapons viably at all, except to one of the same type (so switching types could only be used for stuff like energy hiding). For instance, in GW, it makes no sense to have a hammer/axe build, because of attributes. I don't see why this should make any sense in GW2 either. Also it gives Anet another set of things to balance (Maybe Hammer/Axe is OP but Hammer/Sword is underpowered or whatever) without IMOP being very interesting - I would much prefer having a rifle and a sword equipped together than having a hammer and an axe, for instance.  

Most MMOs that allow weapon swapping have a dedicated ranged slot in which ranged weapons are equipped and a dedicated melee slot. That seems to me to be much more sensible than being able to switch from a two hander to sword/board in mid combat, which moves very far away from what would actually be feasible in reality.

#9 Fario

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:49 AM

Roq said:

Firstly, I reckon that the primary (and maybe even only - I hope) purpose of allowing weapon swapping between two sets of weapons is to change from skills appropriate at longer range to skills appropriate at shorter range. Eric Flannum has already hinted that this might be the case:

- Sceptre&Focus skills for ele will be more appropriate for short range, whilst staff will have long range skills
- The only examples i've seen of a warrior swapping weapons is between rifle or bow and melee weapon
- Why only 2 Weapon sets allowed - except that it maps nicely to ranged/melee swapping?

Secondly, cross weapon set combinations between two sets of melee weapons seems an unrealistic, cumbersome and unnecessary mechanism. Not to mention that if you are carrying two melee sets around you have no ranged option. I mean would you really start bashing someone with a great sword and then suddenly pull out a huge hammer from your knapsack, then put it back and continue with the great sword? Seems unlikely to me.

So I reckon by cross weapon set combos, Eric might mean something like this, for example:

1) You take out you bow and hit a mob with the skill "body shot" that inflicts cracked armor.
2) When the mob gets into range you swap to sword and hit it with a skill that gives you adrenaline if your opponent has cracked armor.

And not something like this:

1) You hit someone up with a sword
2) You switch to a hammer to stun them
3) You switch back to a sword

It's speculative, but maybe Anet won't even allow toons to equip two melee sets.
It's not like people used to you know, carry more than one weapon on their body at the same time.

It's probably more mob dependent than anything else. If a mob uses short range high damage attacks you switch to long range attacks if your a caster. If there's loads of weaker enemies you switch to greatsword if your a warrior for AoE, enemy with lots of health switch to dual wield swords for higher damage output etc. Situation based more than abusing certain mechanics.

#10 Roq

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 10:54 AM

Lyssa said:

The impression that i've gotten is that some proffesions can have more weapon sets than others but i'm really not expecting to see us get that many.

My guess here is that there will be weapons that have long (rifle, bow), medium (pistols at least) and melee ranges. It maybe that some professions can have weapons equipped for all three ranges. That would mean that most profession would have 2 weapon sets as Eric has said, but a pistol user might have three options: Long, Near Melee and Melee. I can imagine that would suit a rogue type (Sins in GW have half range attacks), such as a dual pistol wielder, that uses say daggers at short range and a rifle far out, rather well.

Edited by Roq, 11 May 2010 - 11:07 AM.


#11 Roq

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 11:05 AM

Fario said:

It's not like people used to you know, carry more than one weapon on their body at the same time.

If there's loads of weaker enemies you switch to greatsword if your a warrior for AoE, enemy with lots of health switch to dual wield swords for higher damage output etc. Situation based more than abusing certain mechanics.

Yes, I can see why you might *want* to do that kind of thing - but most classes will only be only be able to equip 2 sets of weapons - so if in a build you did opt for this kind of flexibility you would lose your option to have a ranged attack and to be able to do the only kind of cross profession combo that Anet have yet mentioned. It seems to me significant that "most classes" will only be able to have two weapon sets - it's that in combination with the artificiality of being allowed two different melee options that makes me suspicious. I mean why don't they then allow you to swap between armour sets so that if you meet a fire elementalist you can put on your +fire resistance armor?

#12 draxynnic

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 11:26 AM

I largely agree with the OP, but I think melee professions should be able to have multiple melee slots.

However, I think all weaponswitches should take a second or two to happen - enough that you're not weaponswitching so quickly that you're practically juggling weapons in order to pull off multi-weapon comboes, but where if you're fighting a mixed group where different weapons are advantageous against different opponents (the Stone Summit groups with some knockdownable and some non-knockdownable members come to mind) you can switch to whatever combination is most effective against the target you're going to go for next. This would be especially valuable if ANet made a bit more use of different armour values versus different damage types than in GW1.

#13 Vadar

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 11:38 AM

Being able to use dual daggers on an assassin and then being able to switch to dual pistols (with their own EFFECTIVE skills) to chase a runner would be so awesome and different to the usually annoying melee dancing.

#14 Fario

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 11:50 AM

Roq said:

Yes, I can see why you might *want* to do that kind of thing - but most classes will only be only be able to equip 2 sets of weapons - so if in a build you did opt for this kind of flexibility you would lose your option to have a ranged attack and to be able to do the only kind of cross profession combo that Anet have yet mentioned. It seems to me significant that "most classes" will only be able to have two weapon sets - it's that in combination with the artificiality of being allowed two different melee options that makes me suspicious. I mean why don't they then allow you to swap between armour sets so that if you meet a fire elementalist you can put on your +fire resistance armor?

Do you need more than two different weapons? Sure ranged weapons makes things slightly easier but whole point of a warrior is to be able to survive front line and be able to damage. As long as you don't need to pull warriors are fine same with other classes.

Besides don't you just love how everyone seems to forget you can change skills and weapons outside of battle. Thats a huge amount of freedom for a game like gw. You probably can change armour out of battle as much as pretty much everything else. Changing weapons is far smooth and efficient than changing armour or skills. It's simple but aaptable gameplay and easier for players to understand.

I don't think different weapons skill should be linked however since it leads to a very gw1 still gameplay instead of actually reacting to the battle. They should be self contained and situation with the extra 5 skills and traits to make them more variable and be able to react to a even greater range of situations.

Edited by Fario, 11 May 2010 - 12:03 PM.


#15 Labetha

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 12:10 PM

Vadar said:

Being able to use dual daggers on an assassin and then being able to switch to dual pistols (with their own EFFECTIVE skills) to chase a runner would be so awesome and different to the usually annoying melee dancing.

I can see myself now casting Crippling Anguish on an assassin and walking away laughing... then I'd be in trouble!

OT: I can see some reasoning to this. I wonder if different types of focuses will give different skills, I saw a distinct fan in some mesmer concept art... hmm.

#16 Mordakai

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 01:02 PM

I'm still hoping I can Rush in with my Greatword, do a devastating attack that builds up adrenaline, and then switch to Hammer and a group of enemies down (or up!).

I would be a shame if they limited Weapon switching, we already have 5 set skills, more restrictions seem unnecessary to me.

#17 Fario

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 01:08 PM

Mordakai said:

I'm still hoping I can Rush in with my Greatword, do a devastating attack that builds up adrenaline, and then switch to Hammer and a group of enemies down (or up!).

I would be a shame if they limited Weapon switching, we already have 5 set skills, more restrictions seem unnecessary to me.

Meh it just cause you to formulate some sort of strategy before while still allowing you to be pretty adaptable. I mean you can just have to switch weapons and skills outside of battle which in itself brings a lot of freedom.

#18 Roq

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 03:35 PM

Fario said:

Besides don't you just love how everyone seems to forget you can change skills and weapons outside of battle.

I'm not sure people are forgetting that. It's sounding like a nice feature, particularly if you have equipped skills that don't work on the local mobs. But changing skills out of combat seems readily understandable - it's what you can do in combat that is currently not at all clear.

#19 Fario

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 04:04 PM

Roq said:

I'm not sure people are forgetting that. It's sounding like a nice feature, particularly if you have equipped skills that don't work on the local mobs. But changing skills out of combat seems readily understandable - it's what you can do in combat that is currently not at all clear.

Well logically you can't change armour since it would take time to go into to your inventory and put on different armours and to be able to switch like you can with weapons seems unlikely, pretty unrealistic and gives huge advantage to those taht store differnt runed armours etc.

The number of weapons switchable in combat is likely limited but it probably wouldn't change much if it weren't. The only real mystery is what the advantages and purpose of switching the skills are.

#20 Var

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 04:49 PM

Mordakai said:

I'm still hoping I can Rush in with my Greatword, do a devastating attack that builds up adrenaline, and then switch to Hammer and a group of enemies down (or up!).

I would be a shame if they limited Weapon switching, we already have 5 set skills, more restrictions seem unnecessary to me.

Given what has been said on the Elementalist and on the Warrior, cross-weapon combos is part of what they are aiming for. In essence, they want players to be able to time their attacks, manage their weapons and skills, and really put that whole skill thing to use.

Its an excellent feature for PvP where you won't have nearly as rigid (or if at all present) Build Wars with varying skills sets, and I don't really see a problem for PvE.

In reference to the OP, the case is already framed to be the latter not the former. You can apply the former from the latter, but not forward. Elementalist attunements are the "weapon sets" for an Elementalist, their weapons just modify what the attunement gives. In the end, though, it won't matter because whether its through stances/attunements or weapon swaps, you're still going to be skill weaving if you want to be "good".

#21 BBQman

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:09 PM

I guess this is the appropriate thread to post this in:

So we know the first five skills are determined by your profession and your weapon. Now my speculation is that none of the scholars will be able to swap weapons on the fly, instead they'll be able to switch between attunements.
This means staffs and scepters won't have any influence, whatsoever, on your 5 base skills.
Other scholar professions will not have elemental attunements, obviously.

This may all seem obvious to some (most?), I just thought I'd point that out.

#22 Mulciber

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:18 PM

pretty sure, least with the ele, that they have said that a staff will have a different skillset than a wand/scepter(something like fireball vs dragonbreath)

#23 Corsair

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Posted 11 May 2010 - 05:19 PM

A theory many of us hold is that all scholars have their own attunements system. But if they do have multiple weapon sets, they should be able to switch whenever they want to, with little to no penalty.