50 replies to this topic

[Auricelia]

One of the biggest issues I noticed while playing a turret-based engineer in the BWE was the lack of any real implementation of the toolbelt. If the turret wasn't down then your toolbelt skill was a clone of the placement skill, and if it was down then the toolbelt skill just blew it up, while pressing the skill button again did the overcharge.

My proposal is that we swap the detonation and overcharge locations, making overcharging a turret our toolbelt function. This would allow turret engineers to profit from the ingenuity stat, making their turrets more effective by allowing them to overcharge more often in a fight, as well as allow them to benefit for the tools traits that trigger on toolbelt use.

However, I would also suggest that the toolbelt skill being placement of the turret when undeployed be done away with as well. The weapon kits all have an ancillary ability OF THE KIT ITSELF that can be used when the kit is not deployed for its toolbelt function. The grenade kit allows you to throw a grenade barrage, the flamethrower kit allows you to endow yourself with incendiary ammo, etc. I propose that, when the turret is undeployed, its overcharge becomes available to the engineer in a reduced form as the toolbelt skill.

Taking the rocket and net turrets as examples, if you're using these turrets then you're obviously carrying around the ammo to load them with. When the turret is undeployed allow us to throw an un-electrified net as a medium-range single target entangle for the net turret's toolbelt, and hurl a primed rocket as a ground target ability to either burn or knockdown our enemies as the rocket turret's toolbelt.

The healing turret's toolbelt skill would be rather easy to assume as well. Overcharge it while it's stored on your back for an AOE pulse of either modest healing or a small heal and condition removal.

The flame and rifle turrets are more problematic, but while I have difficulty figuring out how you would use the rifle turret's functions with it undeployed, allow us to vent the flame turret just as we do to overcharge, performing a PBAOE blind while, perhaps, also stealthing the user for a couple of seconds due to being at the center of the smoke cloud.

Anyway, those are my thoughts as to how the most glaring issue of the turrets engineer should be fixed. I hope it was an enjoyable read, and that it wasn't embarrassing for a first post. I bid you all a wonderful day, and hopefully I'll enjoy the same.

Edited by Auricelia, 04 May 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[mac00attack]

+1 !!  I think these are great ideas for turrets. I hate how the toolbelt function is exactly the same for every single turret, in my opinion it just seems lazy.

[Lyuben]

Its a very sensible idea.

I've been calling for it for weeks.

It is a very easy fix, to a stupid problem.

[coglin]

I have to agree myself as well. It does appear  to have an over all advantage. At least from my stand point. I see more value in the over charging of a turret over detonating one anyday. At least from my perspective and playstyle.

Either way, every other utility we get adds a relative tool belt skill that I agree could have an equavalent ability for the tool belt.

Edited by coglin, 04 May 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[Zehkari]

Auricelia, on 04 May 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

My proposal is that we swap the detonation and overcharge locations, making overcharging a turret our toolbelt function. This would allow turret engineers to profit from the ingenuity stat, making their turrets more effective by allowing them to overcharge more often in a fight, as well as allow them to benefit for the tools traits that trigger on toolbelt use.

Exactly this with pick up not applying cool down and hp/dmg tweak. Happy Days.

[Aristio]

I only have a few gripes about the turrets:

1) Up their rate of fire.

2) When you pick the Turrets up, it goes on a 5 second cooldown before you can place it again. It's HP is not reset to full.

3) Make them take drastically less damage from splash AoE. Being completely stationary, they have no ways to get out of AoE. A 75% reduction to all forms of splash AoE would be satisfactory to me.

[KungFuEwok]

Auricelia, on 04 May 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

My proposal is that we swap the detonation and overcharge locations, making overcharging a turret our toolbelt function. This would allow turret engineers to profit from the ingenuity stat, making their turrets more effective by allowing them to overcharge more often in a fight, as well as allow them to benefit for the tools traits that trigger on toolbelt use.

I think this is a great idea as well. It would also allow modifying the benefit of picking up your turret, instead of detonating it or allowing it to be destroyed - it puts overcharge on a separate cooldown, so you could allow the engineer to pick up and deploy the turret as necessary without it being overpowered.

A further extension of the idea is to have an undeployed turret regenerate health at a rate proportional to its current cooldown. e.g. a rifle turret with 20 sec cooldown regenerates 5% of its health for each second it's in your inventory. The net result is that having a full cooldown gives you a fresh turret, but in a firefight, you have the choice to use a relocate a partial health turret for strategic purposes (e.g. following the flow of a battle, taking advantage of an overcharge skill being available.)

[Apocalyptic]

Personally, i feel that when you pick up a turret, it should 100% refresh the cooldown of it.  Nothing else would need to be changed and this would immediately make a turret engineer viable and a lot more fun to play.

[DoomBunny]

I was just coming over to these forums to suggest this idea, and now not once but twice! have I seen someone else suggest it.

it's really just common sense. Why put the "get rid of turret" button on the toolbelt, the class mechanic when you have the "use turret in a different way" ability? The latter is something that makes sense on the toolbelt. The former is just the Engineer's version of "sacrifice your minion" which is always on the trigger after the summon.

It also is just a lot easier to use. After I summon my turret, I'd prefer to only move one finger to hit f1-f4 to buff it, rather than try to reach the utility bar.

[coglin]

Am I missing something? I was under the impression they worked similar to mesmer "shatters" in which detonating the turret causes then to explode, thus doing a spike damage attack.

[Lyuben]

coglin, on 06 May 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Am I missing something? I was under the impression they worked similar to mesmer "shatters" in which detonating the turret causes then to explode, thus doing a spike damage attack.

You're missing a lot.

The detonate turret, does not benefit from the stat 'ingenuity'.

OPs idea, which has been around for a while, fixes that problem.

DoomBunny, on 06 May 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I was just coming over to these forums to suggest this idea, and now not once but twice! have I seen someone else suggest it.

it's really just common sense. Why put the "get rid of turret" button on the toolbelt, the class mechanic when you have the "use turret in a different way" ability? The latter is something that makes sense on the toolbelt. The former is just the Engineer's version of "sacrifice your minion" which is always on the trigger after the summon.

It also is just a lot easier to use. After I summon my turret, I'd prefer to only move one finger to hit f1-f4 to buff it, rather than try to reach the utility bar.

Heh, get in line. I suggested this way back when.

http://www.guildwars...the-overcharge/

[The Eggman]

The idea of overcharge and detonate being swapped was there when the devs first had it that way to begin with. It has also been a suggestion thrown around by many people, even further back then Lyuben.

[coglin]

Lyuben, on 06 May 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

You're missing a lot.

The detonate turret, does not benefit from the stat 'ingenuity'.

OPs idea, which has been around for a while, fixes that problem.

Appearently not. no one is argueing ingenuities effectiveness on the turrets. But everone talks like there is no benefit to to having detonate turret. Which does an AoE spike damage similar to mesmer shatters, correct? Thus it should be effected by explosives traits.

Personally, I agree ingenuity should effect turret fire pace, but whats that have to do with detonating a turret?

The reason it was changed I am told, was because it was asked to be changed by previous beta players. From my understanding of that discussion, players found more benefit to have that acess to spike damage of detonate because turrets are too easily killed.

Ops idea doesn't fix the problem as at see. It only appeaes the vocal minority.

[Lyuben]

coglin, on 06 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Appearently not. no one is argueing ingenuities effectiveness on the turrets. But everone talks like there is no benefit to to having detonate turret. Which does an AoE spike damage similar to mesmer shatters, correct? Thus it should be effected by explosives traits.

Personally, I agree ingenuity should effect turret fire pace, but whats that have to do with detonating a turret?

The reason it was changed I am told, was because it was asked to be changed by previous beta players. From my understanding of that discussion, players found more benefit to have that acess to spike damage of detonate because turrets are too easily killed.

Ops idea doesn't fix the problem as at see. It only appeaes the vocal minority.

Do you know how to read?

Of course detonate turret has a use, and no one here remotely suggested it disappears. Switching it, with the overcharge means that it still exists, and it would be LITERALLY IDENTICAL in function. Only difference would be that you now benefit from ingenuity. That is the difference. So the issue WOULD be fixed. Because overcharges would benefit from shorter cooldowns.

And a 'vocal minority'. Find me one person, except for Metamorphosis who is against this change. This is one of the design changes in the engineer forums that has near universal support.

[coglin]

Lyuben, on 06 May 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Do you know how to read?

Of course detonate turret has a use, and no one here remotely suggested it disappears. Switching it, with the overcharge means that it still exists, and it would be LITERALLY IDENTICAL in function. Only difference would be that you now benefit from ingenuity. That is the difference. So the issue WOULD be fixed. Because overcharges would benefit from shorter cooldowns.

And a 'vocal minority'. Find me one person, except for Metamorphosis who is against this change. This is one of the design changes in the engineer forums that has near universal support.

Yup I read well, thanks for asking. Care to explain how its relavent or was it just a troll comment?

As for people against the change, Well  I could come right back at you asking you "Do you know how to read?" (of coarse by the way you troll my post clearly you can)
if so prove it by reading this thread tittled "Does anyone hope they don't change?" Its full of em.

I for one am against this change, as well as those who suggested it change originally. It takes a very narrow view to foolishly assume the only possible way they an allow ingenuity to effect turrets is to change this. As a matter of fact, then many more could complain that detonate will lose benefit because it would not be effected by its respective stat. At least by your logic.

Edited by coglin, 06 May 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Lyuben]

And your change, changes the very nature of ingenuity. A step much larger than what I am proposing.

What happened to only wanting minor tweaks?

Edited by OctoberJade, 08 May 2012 - 03:51 PM.
be nice

[Craywulf]

Aristio, on 05 May 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I only have a few gripes about the turrets:

1) Up their rate of fire.

2) When you pick the Turrets up, it goes on a 5 second cooldown before you can place it again. It's HP is not reset to full.

3) Make them take drastically less damage from splash AoE. Being completely stationary, they have no ways to get out of AoE. A 75% reduction to all forms of splash AoE would be satisfactory to me.

1) I agree the rate of fire is a tad slow.
2) I don't think the HP should reset to full upon picking it up. But should regenerate HP slowly.
3) 75% is too much, I'd go more like 66% reduction of AoE damage.

Not to sound like a noob but just what exactly is "overcharge" on these turrets?

[Lyuben]

Craywulf, on 06 May 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

1) I agree the rate of fire is a tad slow.
2) I don't think the HP should reset to full upon picking it up. But should regenerate HP slowly.
3) 75% is too much, I'd go more like 66% reduction of AoE damage.

Not to sound like a noob but just what exactly is "overcharge" on these turrets?

Its the effect that overtakes the turret after you spawn it on your utility belt.

For example, the rifle turret has automatic fire.

Flame turret has smoke screen.

You can use those, on cooldown very easily. And the proposal is, to make them the toolbelt, instead of the 'detonate turret',as they would benefit from ingenuity, as the 'detonate turret' does not currently.

[coglin]

Clearly I am not the only one who believes that the turrets rate of fire is a needed tweak. Just because you claim its OP does not make it true. It does not even make it the majority.

Edited by OctoberJade, 08 May 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[coglin]

Post # 24, #20, and #18 I specifically answered your quesions my my thick friend. I detailed how they could make ingenuity work. Perhaps you need a dictionary, but I fail to see how thats skirting anything.

I never claimed " that this would affect the detonate turret ability". I very specifically stated I "was told" it effected detonate ability in the debates from the previous beta. .....As you so clearly like to post lies as such, I should of seen this comming. Appearently it wasn't the vocal majority, because the devs changed it.. I am sure you have some manner to skirt the issue that the devs acting to change an issue is weak support for the point. But go ahead and knock yourself out.

[Lyuben]

coglin, on 06 May 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Post # 24, #20, and #18 I specifically answered your quesions my my thick friend. I detailed how they could make ingenuity work. Perhaps you need a dictionary, but I fail to see how thats skirting anything.

I never claimed " that this would affect the detonate turret ability". I very specifically stated I "was told" it effected detonate ability in the debates from the previous beta. .....As you so clearly like to post lies as such, I should of seen this comming. Appearently it wasn't the vocal majority, because the devs changed it.. I am sure you have some manner to skirt the issue that the devs acting to change an issue is weak support for the point. But go ahead and knock yourself out.

I thought there was hope for you.

Say hello to Nemesis, Metamorphosis and Muddlefoot for me please.

[Craywulf]

Lyuben, on 06 May 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Its the effect that overtakes the turret after you spawn it on your utility belt.

For example, the rifle turret has automatic fire.

Flame turret has smoke screen.

You can use those, on cooldown very easily. And the proposal is, to make them the toolbelt, instead of the 'detonate turret',as they would benefit from ingenuity, as the 'detonate turret' does not currently.

What's "automatic fire" or "smoke screen" why are these labeled "overcharge"?

[Lyuben]

On the topic though, I believe it is actually a very simply design change. It was already working like that in earlier versions of the game, so its not like its breaking new ground.

For me, the problem simply exists, because the change to the turrets, I.e, putting detonate turret as the toolbelt made sense at a point. It honestly did. It is annoyingly easy to double click your turret for it to blow up. So, putting it on the toolbelt was a nice quality of life change that made no balancing impact at all.

However, once ingenuity came, which came later on, these things changed. And now, I believe things need to either: change ingenuity (totally unreasonable) or change them back, which is a very easy change.

Craywulf, on 06 May 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

What's "automatic fire" or "smoke screen" why are these labeled "overcharge"?

http://www.gw2tools....aaaa;bYaa;beXVZ

Check it out here. They are the abilities below each turret.

Sort of like how a necromancer can detonate his bone minions, an engineer can give his turrets buffs called 'overcharges'.

Edited by OctoberJade, 08 May 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[coglin]

Lyuben, on 06 May 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

I believe it is actually a very simply design change. It was already working like that in earlier versions of the game, so its not like its breaking new ground.

For me, the problem simply exists, because the change to the turrets, I.e, putting detonate turret as the toolbelt made sense at a point. It honestly did. It is annoyingly easy to double click your turret for it to blow up. So, putting it on the toolbelt was a nice quality of life change that made no balancing impact at all.

However, once ingenuity came, which came later on, these things changed. And now, I believe things need to either: change ingenuity (totally unreasonable) or change them back, which is a very easy change.

This is why I suggest they can simply tweak the stats modification on turrets.

Thats gives the benefits you desire and removes the issues with double tapping detonate. its the same suggestion I offered previously that you bashed me for. Everyone gets what they want. I fail to see the issue with it.

Edited by coglin, 06 May 2012 - 11:25 PM.

[Craywulf]

I see thanks, I was looking at the wiki and couldn't find anything specific. That link explained a lot. I do agree that these would be more fitting if they were placed in the toolbelt for the ingenuity buff however I think ArenaNet feels that their current respective overcharge cooldowns are where they want them to be. If they did move them to benefit from ingenuity, then I would not be surprised if the base overcharge cooldowns are slightly longer to offset any potential cooldown unbalance.

[DaiGuren]

Yes plz!
Detonate turret to the skillbar!
Overcharge's to the Toolbelt!

(And plz fix dat AI )

[Lyuben]

Craywulf, on 06 May 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

I see thanks, I was looking at the wiki and couldn't find anything specific. That link explained a lot. I do agree that these would be more fitting if they were placed in the toolbelt for the ingenuity buff however I think ArenaNet feels that their current respective overcharge cooldowns are where they want them to be. If they did move them to benefit from ingenuity, then I would not be surprised if the base overcharge cooldowns are slightly longer to offset any potential cooldown unbalance.

Thing is though, Arenanet changed the turret 'detonate turret' to be the toolbelt, before ingenuity existed.

So to me, its an oversight.

And I would not at all argue that cooldowns would change. In my opinion, a stat should never be useless in any build ever. Its simple. And so, the way it would work is, if you take 0 ingenuity, you gain 0 benefit. Its not a buff that is applied out of nowhere to all builds. Its a buff to reward people, who should be rewarded.

If you have a turret build, with 0 ingenuity, your toolbelts, your overcharge is exactly the same, and your detonate turret is exactly the same. And now, with 30 ingenuity, it is exactly the same as with 0 ingenuity.

There is literally, no other class which is EVER in a situation where a stat is LITERALLY useless. Its just turrets and the engineer. Plus, some traits are useless. Such as inertial converter. And again, in literally all cases except turrets, no other class has a minor trait which is not universally useful to some degree.

[Craywulf]

But who in their right mind would have a turret build and NOT pour any trait points into ingenuity? So the likelihood of the base cooldown of overcharge remaining uneffected by ingenuity would be rare. People are gonna pour all they can into ingenuity if they have more than one turret. This would basically pigeon-hole a turret build.

[Lyuben]

Craywulf, on 06 May 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

But who in their right mind would have a turret build and NOT pour any trait points into ingenuity? So the likelihood of the base cooldown of overcharge remaining uneffected by ingenuity would be rare. People are gonna pour all they can into ingenuity if they have more than one turret. This would basically pigeon-hole a turret build.

That's choice and freedom for you. I would personally, pick 10-20 points into ingenuity. For the auto repair, and the tool kit giving more healing.

Now, currently, when I choose this: I have 2 minor traits, which do not affect turrets. And a stat, which does not affect turrets. This is very poor for me. And currently, it discourages me to go into tools.

Fixing both problems, minor traits and ingenuity, would give you more options. Which is better for the engineer.

[Deuzerre]

/agreed to the swap.