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A partial fix for Turrets (suggestion)

engineer turrets toolbelt ingenuity overcharge suggestions

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#31 Craywulf

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:51 PM

I have no problems with switching overcharges to toolbelt to benefit from ingenuity, the question should be asked...how much should ingenuity effect the overcharge cooldowns?

#32 Lyuben

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 06 May 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

I have no problems with switching overcharges to toolbelt to benefit from ingenuity, the question should be asked...how much should ingenuity effect the overcharge cooldowns?

The same way ingenuity affects everything else.

10=10% lower cooldown.

So, on a 30s cooldown, 3s shorter.

On a 20s, 2s shorter.

30=30% lower cooldown.

So, on a 30s cooldown, 9s shorter

On a 20s, 6s shorter.

#33 coglin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:07 AM

This will then bring back the issue in which, if you accidentally double click the turret utility when planting it, you will imidiately blow it up.

Suggestion to solve this?

#34 Craywulf

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:22 AM

View Postcoglin, on 07 May 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

This will then bring back the issue in which, if you accidentally double click the turret utility when planting it, you will imidiately blow it up.

Suggestion to solve this?
This is minor complaint, considering that minions blow up too, and they never changed it.

#35 Lyuben

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:23 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 07 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

This is minor complaint, considering that minions blow up too, and they never changed it.

Best solution ideally? Learn to play.

If we are serious though, maybe once summoned, there is a GCD effect of sorts for 1s or so, if there isn't one already.

Though it is seriously a non issue. Does not affect balance in the slightest.

#36 coglin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 07 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

This is minor complaint, considering that minions blow up too, and they never changed it.

View PostLyuben, on 07 May 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

.Though it is seriously a non issue. Does not affect balance in the slightest.

I disagree that its a minor complaint. As I see it, the minor complaint is wanting to change how they are now. Especially since there was a reason the devs changed it.Wouldn't it just be simpler to allow the devs to give an applied ingenuity modifier similar to how stats mod all of the other pets in the game?

So classes with minions have tool belts that make a relavent comarison? Otherwise its not relavent to make a tool belt specific comparison to classes with no tool belt, don't you think?

Like it or not, it is an issue. Otherwise there would not be 40+ post on the topic..

Edited by coglin, 07 May 2012 - 12:37 AM.


#37 Craywulf

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostLyuben, on 06 May 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

The same way ingenuity affects everything else.

10=10% lower cooldown.

So, on a 30s cooldown, 3s shorter.

On a 20s, 2s shorter.

30=30% lower cooldown.

So, on a 30s cooldown, 9s shorter

On a 20s, 6s shorter.
So you're okay with the idea with this build http://www.gw2tools....acUZ;Zaaa;beXWZ getting cooldown of 42s for Cleansing Burst, 21s CD for Thump, Smoke Screen, and Automatic Fire? That seems rather overpowered to me.

#38 Lyuben

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:56 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 07 May 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

So you're okay with the idea with this build http://www.gw2tools....acUZ;Zaaa;beXWZ getting cooldown of 42s for Cleansing Burst, 21s CD for Thump, Smoke Screen, and Automatic Fire? That seems rather overpowered to me.

Seems absolutely fine.

If it was lowered, out of nothing. Like, you did not need to do anything. Then yeah.

But spending 30 trait points to get that is a fair trade off.

#39 coglin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:12 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 07 May 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

So you're okay with the idea of getting cooldown of 42s for Cleansing Burst, 21s CD for Thump, Smoke Screen, and Automatic Fire? That seems rather overpowered to me.

View PostLyuben, on 07 May 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Seems absolutely fine.

If it was lowered, out of nothing. Like, you did not need to do anything. Then yeah.

But spending 30 trait points to get that is a fair trade off.

yet when I suggested points into ingenuity effecting turrets diectly in the same manner you were against it.

View Postcoglin, on 06 May 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Pretty simply, I suggest they simply allow ingenuity to scale the CD time on all turret utilities weapons abilities, the sameway it effects the players. its not really that complicated as far as I see it.

View PostLyuben, on 06 May 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Your suggestion that "it lowers the cooldown of all utilities" seems quite overpowered and too much of an overhaul.

Edited by coglin, 07 May 2012 - 01:13 AM.


#40 Craywulf

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:30 AM

View Postcoglin, on 06 May 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Pretty simply, I suggest they simply allow ingenuity to scale the CD time on all turret utilities weapons abilities, the sameway it effects the players. its not really that complicated as far as I see it.
Lets clarify, are you advocating ingenuity on non-overcharge turret skills? If so...I don't think that's the way to go.

#41 coglin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:34 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 07 May 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Lets clarify, are you advocating ingenuity on non-overcharge turret skills? If so...I don't think that's the way to go.
No, as I said before, leave detonate on the TB as it is for spike damage, as well it prevents accidental back to back plant/detonation issues. No need to change overcharge ability either.

To be more specific, I see no need to change anything from the way it is now, with the exception of making a direct ingenuity modifier for turrets.

Edited by coglin, 07 May 2012 - 01:34 AM.


#42 Craywulf

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:52 AM

View Postcoglin, on 07 May 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

To be more specific, I see no need to change anything from the way it is now, with the exception of making a direct ingenuity modifier for turrets.
That's adding complexity to understanding traits and builds. That's not worth doing because a minor complaint of accidentally double clicking the turret skills.

#43 coglin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:59 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 07 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

That's adding complexity to understanding traits and builds. That's not worth doing because a minor complaint of accidentally double clicking the turret skills.
How so? I am suggesting everything you are with the exception of the need to swap detonate and overcharge.

Do stats not effect pets in other classes? Does empathy not effect ranger pets directly? Guile doesn't effect  mesmer pets directly?

Edited by coglin, 07 May 2012 - 02:02 AM.


#44 The Eggman

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:18 AM

View Postcoglin, on 07 May 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

How so? I am suggesting everything you are with the exception of the need to swap detonate and overcharge.

Do stats not effect pets in other classes? Does empathy not effect ranger pets directly? Guile doesn't effect  mesmer pets directly?

Necros Hunger does not effect their minions. And we are much closer to Necros in regards to turrets than we are Ranger's pet or Mesmer's Illusions. The big difference... the illusions are staple to EVERY mesmer build, just as a ranger ALWAYS has his pet. But as engineer's we do not always have our turrets, just like the necro's do not always have their minions. So, yes I would also be for Lyuben's turret idea.

Edited by The Eggman, 07 May 2012 - 02:19 AM.


#45 Ridku

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 03:32 AM

What if they just place the detonate skill after the overcharge skill? removing the global cooldown on the turrets in case you want to detonate it right away to do damage without having to wait for the global cooldown after using the overcharge skill.
Just like this:

-Flame Turret > Smoke Screen > Detonate Turret

I think that way would be way better so that they can create new tool belt skills that can be used anytime without the need of the turret being deployed.

#46 Lyuben

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:07 AM

View PostRidku, on 07 May 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

What if they just place the detonate skill after the overcharge skill? removing the global cooldown on the turrets in case you want to detonate it right away to do damage without having to wait for the global cooldown after using the overcharge skill.
Just like this:

-Flame Turret > Smoke Screen > Detonate Turret

I think that way would be way better so that they can create new tool belt skills that can be used anytime without the need of the turret being deployed.

Heh, this thread is making me nostalgic. This idea has too been banded around.

It is possible.

#47 Deuzerre

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:31 AM

Did anyone realise that by picking them up your cooldown was reduced, or was it a fantasy when i played? Don't want to create a thread just for that.

#48 Lyuben

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:33 AM

View PostDeuzerre, on 07 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Did anyone realise that by picking them up your cooldown was reduced, or was it a fantasy when i played? Don't want to create a thread just for that.

Yeah, picking up your turret reduces the cooldown by around 25%. Most people believe, on long cooldowns such as 60s rocket turret, are far too long and unnoticeable. They want it to be very noticeable and much larger.

#49 Auricelia

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostLyuben, on 07 May 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Yeah, picking up your turret reduces the cooldown by around 25%. Most people believe, on long cooldowns such as 60s rocket turret, are far too long and unnoticeable. They want it to be very noticeable and much larger.

I'm one of them rallying for the more noticeable CD reduction on pickup. I posted about THAT issue on the BWE official forums, because it was bugging me more than this one at the time.

View Postcoglin, on 06 May 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Please chime in here my friend. Whats your opinion on what I suggested?

Coglin, as for your idea about making Ingenuity affect turrets "directly", by which I can only assume you mean such stats as health, armor, damage, rate of fire, etc, I can only say an uncompromising "NO". They have traits which give boosts to most of those aspects and Power already increases turret damage, so making Ingenuity also increase the ROF would allow some rather broken double dipping.

As for the double tap turret loss issue, an internal CD between setting the turret and the explosives being primed would prevent that from occurring, and allow us to have our overcharge skills on the toolbar so that turrets would have access to ingenuity as a relevant stat, though the primary crux of my argument was turrets needing to have a "real" toolbelt skill in general, whether deployed or undeployed, and the detonate/overcharge swap just dovetails into that nicely.

Edited by Auricelia, 07 May 2012 - 12:46 PM.


#50 coglin

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:12 AM

View PostAuricelia, on 07 May 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Coglin, as for your idea about making Ingenuity affect turrets "directly", by which I can only assume you mean such stats as health, armor, damage, rate of fire, etc, I can only say an uncompromising "NO". They have traits which give boosts to most of those aspects and Power already increases turret damage, so making Ingenuity also increase the ROF would allow some rather broken double dipping.
.
Well you made an absolute incorrect assumption. I was saying make it effect them the same way as if they were on the TB without actually having to move them around between the TB and the utility belt. You get the exact same effect without havingto swap them around further.

Edited by coglin, 08 May 2012 - 01:13 AM.


#51 Auricelia

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 02:37 PM

View Postcoglin, on 08 May 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Well you made an absolute incorrect assumption. I was saying make it effect them the same way as if they were on the TB without actually having to move them around between the TB and the utility belt. You get the exact same effect without havingto swap them around further.

Then I suppose the idea has merit, but I honestly believe we're more likely to get a legitimate, personal use overcharge-style toolbelt skill while the turret is undeployed if the deployed overcharge is on toolbelt also. It would be very clumsy if your toolbelt went from overcharge to detonate, while the progression from deploy to undeploy (in this case detonate) is not such a stretch.

Edit: Well, looks like I killed it.

Edited by Auricelia, 10 May 2012 - 01:53 PM.