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Large-scale group (guild) organized PvE content?

pve endgame Guilds Raids End Game

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#1 Lethality

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:32 PM

I know the term "end-game" is frowned upon, but what I really want to understand is, what does a PvE guild do with their time when they've reached max level? Yes, I'm sure there will be skill challenges to finish, dungeons to run, achievements,  etc. Those are activities for a single player or a small group.

But as a large group - a GUILD - what will they be doing together? And further, will there be any measure of "progression"?

Remember, this is for a PvE guild only.

#2 jarred

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:37 PM

Dungeons mate, some dungeons scale and open up another version of themselves when you hit max lvl. plus the main dungeons at lvl cap. also there is a ton of content you might miss on the way up to 80 so there is a ton to go back and see. it is still fun for all because the delevel system. And of course pvp but you mentioned just a pve guild. the game is massive and before you get to all the content there will be more comming out. I promise you that.

#3 Dream Catcher

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

You could do timed runs on puzzles, the Epic DE's, run through in groups or as a guild with a new character (this could be a ton of fun), hold events for the community, compete against each other on different aspects of the PvE world. I guess there is a ton of things to do, if your open minded.

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#4 Bandit17

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

There is the side-kicking system which means you can always help new guildies and new alts with lower level content. And if I know PvE'ers (like my friends and I) we love our alts :D  There will also be new content updates as the game moves forward as discussed here: http://www.pcgamer.c...-play-together/. There are dozens upon dozens of different story arcs as well which may interest many PvE'ers to roll alts or help out guildies in completeing just to experience them.

In the end it's a B2P product meaning there is no rush to get to level 80 and you can play other games as well and not feel guilty about a sub fee.

I hope that helped subdue your worries :)

Edited by Bandit17, 06 May 2012 - 06:42 PM.


#5 Lethality

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:45 PM

View Postjarred, on 06 May 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Dungeons mate, some dungeons scale and open up another version of themselves when you hit max lvl. plus the main dungeons at lvl cap. also there is a ton of content you might miss on the way up to 80 so there is a ton to go back and see. it is still fun for all because the delevel system. And of course pvp but you mentioned just a pve guild. the game is massive and before you get to all the content there will be more comming out. I promise you that.

Thanks for the response, but I guess I'm looking for large-format content - things we all do together. Dungeons are just 5-man, everything else can be done solo. I mean I'm incredibly excited to be able to do all of those things with friends... but I guess, in "Guild" Wars, what will the PvE "Guild" do together?

Maybe this is something that hasn't been revealed yet, to some extent... perhaps there's 20 man "Dungeons" or something along those line coming...

View PostBandit17, on 06 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

There is the side-kicking system which means you can always help new guildies and new alts with lower level content. And if I know PvE'ers (like my friends and I) we love our alts :D  There will also me new content updates as the game moves forward as discussed here: http://www.pcgamer.c...-play-together/. There are dozens upon dozens of different story arcs as well which may interest many PvE'ers to roll alts or help out guildies in completeing just to experience them.

In the end it's a B2P product meaning there is no rush to get to level 80 and you can play other games as well and not feel guilty about a sub fee.

I hope that helped subdue your worries :)

Oh definitely... always fun to be had just messing around, helping guildies level! As for alts, I never play them myself, however if any game has me thinking about it, it's GW2! Too many of the classes just look too fun to play just one!

I am worried a bit that we're headed into the TOR direction, where most of the players prefer to play solo and there's very little social interaction at all. They'e more or less removed the need for a "group/party" construct anyway, so I'm trying to find what the "guild" construct will offer to the PvE player, in the form of content to do together.

Seems like there should be something, no?

#6 grey_foxx082

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:46 PM

From what I know, there aren't gonna be 20 man dungeons or 'raids'.. No one knows how challenging large scale events in the level 80 zone will be, though, maybe those will be 'raid coordination worthy' events, or not...

As for progression, stat progression stops at 80, and it's all achievement, unlocks and guild influence progression after that, I suppose.

ADD:
WvWvW is where big guilds may have a real significant purpose.  PvE is better for small guilds composed of group of friends, I think.

Edited by grey_foxx082, 06 May 2012 - 07:01 PM.


#7 Fion

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:50 PM

Play WvW. I know.. it's PvP but really it's a mix and the PvP isn't so much 'direct competition' as sPvP. So even for a mostly-PvE person (like myself) it's a hell of a lot of fun and there's plenty for even full-time PvE'ers to do believe it or not.

Also, participate in large-scale DEs and Meta-Events. Even at low lvl's there were some 'really' hard battles. The Fire Shaman for example is tough as nails at what, level 10? Entire groups of 50+ were getting wiped out by that guy. He is easier if you learn a strategy to take him on but it's just one example of the myriad large scale events that guilds could take on, and thanks to the scaling system, even at guild of 25 lvl 80's can be challenged by a level 10 DE!

GW2 really forces you to break outside that box that is typical MMOG 'end game'. Because the entire game really is end game.

#8 Bandit17

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:53 PM

There is no end game raiding as it's known in traditional MMOs. Now that being said there is always the possibility of larger than 5 man dungeon limits down the road but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. As long as you have a 3rd party chat like vent or whatever than taking down world bosses and participating in meta events are always there. Without having skills that target allies and the ability to rez friendly players and use cross-profession combos the need for any real official group is just not there for open world PvE content. Just make a guild zerg and go:D  

You will have festivals and mini games that your guild can partake in as well.

Edit: I also agree with Fion that WvW doesn't have that typical PvP direct competition to it. It has more of a large group raid vibe and I highly recomend trying it out.

Edited by Bandit17, 06 May 2012 - 06:57 PM.


#9 Soazak

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:13 PM

In terms of what you're asking...I've heard there will be nothing more than 5man content.

I would guess, hard mode/elite 'events' would be possible. A little like raids but outdoors.

It would be a little dissapointing if there is nothing, as I have more than 4 people in my guild I want to play with :D

#10 Lethality

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:18 PM

View PostBandit17, on 06 May 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

There is no end game raiding as it's known in traditional MMOs. Now that being said there is always the possibility of larger than 5 man dungeon limits down the road but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. As long as you have a 3rd party chat like vent or whatever than taking down world bosses and participating in meta events are always there. Without having skills that target allies and the ability to rez friendly players and use cross-profession combos the need for any real official group is just not there for open world PvE content. Just make a guild zerg and go:D  

You will have festivals and mini games that your guild can partake in as well.

Edit: I also agree with Fion that WvW doesn't have that typical PvP direct competition to it. It has more of a large group raid vibe and I highly recomend trying it out.

I'm sure we'll check out WvWvW and probably find it fun, I just want to find that team spirit again of the entire guild running and doing things together. The teamwork that emerges as you learn what each other knows and does best, etc. I do have to admit that I find it a bit ironic that the guild structure doesn't seem to have much meaning in a game called Guild Wars (at least as it relates to PvE content!)

For the other poster above, what I meant by progression was more of a "story progression" thing, whereby guilds work to best each other in the first to take down bosses. For example, if we end up fighting one of the Elder dragons, will there be a reason for a guild to mark their progress on it and compare/compete with other guilds? That is a ton of fun for many.

I'm really hoping there's something we don't know about yet, maybe not right at launch... I just can't fathom that there's not going to be some kind of larger-format PvE organized content in the game somewhere that guilds can all work on together.

View PostSoazak, on 06 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

In terms of what you're asking...I've heard there will be nothing more than 5man content. I would guess, hard mode/elite 'events' would be possible. A little like raids but outdoors. It would be a little dissapointing if there is nothing, as I have more than 4 people in my guild I want to play with :D

Yup. The guild I was in in TOR (they are a multi-game guild) had almost 800 members. And while you can't do something with EVERYONE, at least breaking it down into groups of at least 20 made it felt much more like a guild event.

#11 CharliePrince

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostLethality, on 06 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I know the term "end-game" is frowned upon, but what I really want to understand is, what does a PvE guild do with their time when they've reached max level? Yes, I'm sure there will be skill challenges to finish, dungeons to run, achievements,  etc. Those are activities for a single player or a small group.

But as a large group - a GUILD - what will they be doing together? And further, will there be any measure of "progression"?

Remember, this is for a PvE guild only.

"meta events" are pretty much the "raid" equivalent if you will from traditional mmo's

ie: The Shatterrer, etc

guilds can still schedule to raid a meta-event, the thing is you don't have to, that's pretty much the freedom of it..

you can log in at any night and see your guild go, "an undead monstrosity is here blah blah blah let's go get this" and everyone in the guild can show up (remember difficulty scales) so there you go..

:) that's how i envision the high-end pve end-game of GW2.. meta events and The Shatterer is just one among them.. here's another one people haven't even seen in-game yet straight from the GuildWars2 Facebook page

An Undead Boss (much like Shadow of the Behemoth, The Shatterer, meta-type-event bosses)

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#12 Magnetaire

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:31 PM

All you have is:
1) Dynamic events in the elite level 80 areas (probably hard as hell, considering the starter zone bosses were sometimes hard lol)
2) Elite dungeon (5 mans)

#13 Cl1p

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:35 PM

Yes, Meta events are the way to go. If you do the events leading up to the final big boss event as a guild you should have a pretty good time and a big scaled up boss fight at the end with loot!

Or form groups of 5 in the same dungeon, join the same voice chat and see who finnishes first.

#14 Achrisos

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:50 PM

There are going to be many events which chain and start with smaller task and end with some sort of big boss final clash. Your guild can get together and complete these epic DE's as a group for fun.

#15 Sebyos

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:07 PM

Well considering we got 5 elder dragon ass to kick I bet we're gonna have a few huge Meta Events to do so I wouldn't worry about the fun in PvE especially with downscaling.

If you want progression tough hey said they wouldn't put raids in and I can't see how there would be progression in meta events.

#16 Selona

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:32 PM

Am all for these Meta events/big world bosses.
But I am rather worried that such a fight/event  cant actually fail. Or can it?
Like the Shadow of the Behemoth fight. Its really cool. But could he actually "win"?

Not sure if this have been confirmed by Arenanet or not?
I really hope the bosses can "win". Otherwise I would feel that the fight lacked importance.
Maybe that what the meta event means? That they will impact the zones more

Anyone knows:)?

Edit: Am so sorry if this isent fully on topic. I just realised I de-railed a bit

Edited by Selona, 06 May 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#17 CharliePrince

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:50 PM

View PostSelona, on 06 May 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Am all for these Meta events/big world bosses.
But I am rather worried that such a fight/event  cant actually fail. Or can it?
Like the Shadow of the Behemoth fight. Its really cool. But could he actually "win"?

Not sure if this have been confirmed by Arenanet or not?
I really hope the bosses can "win". Otherwise I would feel that the fight lacked importance.
Maybe that what the meta event means? That they will impact the zones more

Anyone knows:)?

Edit: Am so sorry if this isent fully on topic. I just realised I de-railed a bit

......you already fail little tiny dynamic events

what makes you think meta-events will go easier on you? :)

the way I envision it, at any "raid" night, you can gather your guild to kill a meta event boss and don't be surprised if you have legion fighting alongside you..

the only thing GW2 won't do is INSTANCE these encounters.. and it does scale in difficulty, so within the madness, it'll be up to individual guilds to coordinate their members to utmost efficiency ala typical raids

#18 kash

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 08:58 PM

I'm sure those bosses or high end mobs will be able to win. I'm also sure competent guilds will be able to crank out anything, but there's also the possibility of other event stages overlapping. You can do an event two nights in a row but they could play out differently. I only had time to do the Boar Hunt during beta, but I can't wait to see what events at higher levels there are like it, since it was challenging on it's own but the overlapping event that we ran into along the way made it crazy.

#19 Selona

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:35 PM

View PostCharliePrince, on 06 May 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

......you already fail little tiny dynamic events

what makes you think meta-events will go easier on you? :)

the way I envision it, at any "raid" night, you can gather your guild to kill a meta event boss and don't be surprised if you have legion fighting alongside you..

the only thing GW2 won't do is INSTANCE these encounters.. and it does scale in difficulty, so within the madness, it'll be up to individual guilds to coordinate their members to utmost efficiency ala typical raids

The Big bad ass bosses are stationary. And dosent move around. As said by Arenanet. Due to server things and all that.
Anyway, so I was just thinking since they wont move. That the whole thing however cool it is. Is going to be rather static, zone wise.
Or have arenanet said anything on the matter.

Dont get me wrong. I´d love for us to get our asses handed to us for not being able to feed the foes off ;)

#20 Lootifer

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostLethality, on 06 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Remember, this is for a PvE guild only.
There's your mistake right there.

I cant understand people who limit themselves based on previous preconceptions... "Oh PvP in game XYZ was lame thus all PvP in any game must be lame".

Part of ANets philosophy when building WvWvW was to get people EXACTLY LIKE YOU into world PvP.

#21 Nirc

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:55 PM

View PostLootifer, on 06 May 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

There's your mistake right there.

I cant understand people who limit themselves based on previous preconceptions... "Oh PvP in game XYZ was lame thus all PvP in any game must be lame".

Part of ANets philosophy when building WvWvW was to get people EXACTLY LIKE YOU into world PvP.
It's just preference. Some people enjoy PvE in general for any game, often because it's more relaxed. Other might have other reasons.

#22 Lootifer

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostNirc, on 06 May 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

It's just preference. Some people enjoy PvE in general for any game, often because it's more relaxed. Other might have other reasons.
Oh I understand the preference; but this is going beyond preference.

I played some WvW last BWE. It was more epic PvE encounter (except the adds are actual people) rather than any typical PvP "lol-l2p-noob" kind of atmosphere.

If you didnt enter it simply because "you dont like PvP" then you are missing out, and probably an idiot (Im using "you" as a generic populus term rather than addressing you specifically here :))

#23 Nirc

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:14 PM

OT, the only challenging endgame content I know if right now is dungeons, as others have said. I hope there are more options than just piling on a boss with everyone else who is on the server at the time, but we'll see.

View PostLootifer, on 06 May 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Oh I understand the preference; but this is going beyond preference.

I played some WvW last BWE. It was more epic PvE encounter (except the adds are actual people) rather than any typical PvP "lol-l2p-noob" kind of atmosphere.

If you didnt enter it simply because "you dont like PvP" then you are missing out, and probably an idiot (Im using "you" as a generic populus term rather than addressing you specifically here :))
How is it going beyond preference? Just because you enjoyed something does not mean others will. Also, it may not mean that the people hold preconceptions about PvP from other games, but that they just don't care too much for the prospect of PvP in general, and calling them an idiot for that is uncalled for.

#24 Lootifer

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:56 PM

View PostNirc, on 06 May 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

OT, the only challenging endgame content I know if right now is dungeons, as others have said. I hope there are more options than just piling on a boss with everyone else who is on the server at the time, but we'll see.


How is it going beyond preference? Just because you enjoyed something does not mean others will. Also, it may not mean that the people hold preconceptions about PvP from other games, but that they just don't care too much for the prospect of PvP in general, and calling them an idiot for that is uncalled for.
The only people I am calling idiots are those who are cutting off their nose to spite their face; if you genuinely dont like PvP, thats fine, I just suggest you give WvW a try before you rule it out.

#25 Saggypoo

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:57 PM

View PostCharliePrince, on 06 May 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

you can log in at any night and see your guild go, "an undead monstrosity is here blah blah blah let's go get this" and everyone in the guild can show up (remember difficulty scales) so there you go..

My biggest worry with something like this deals with how the overflow servers work. By the time a large event likes that gets underway, the area will already be flooded with people wanting in on the action. Once you announce it to your guild, there's a good chance most of the people who try to show up will be pushed to an overflow server where an event like that isn't actually happening.

#26 Eragon Zarroc

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:59 PM

i would look at WvWvW as just super advanced PvE content ;)  completely dynamic :)

#27 Oldthrall

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:44 PM

I personally don't like large scale group raids since it requires too much planning and for all people to show up at a time....although it is generally more fun to do things together as a group...who doesn't like the idea of 25 or 40 people gathering together to raid a huge dragon in his den? I don't think dynamic events are a replacement for such encounters, rather the dungeons are intended to offer that experience. How exactly Anet plans to do so I don't know. However, I believe they do have their reasons for not putting in raids as well as the dungeons they have...a coordinated group fighting together will need to know how to dodge, etc. but with such a large group of 25-40 people it's hard to do so considering the dynamic factor of GW2 combat. I think it's just not possible to have such large coordinated group encounters in GW2. They place a lot of emphasis on how each person can fill all roles and that everyone has the job of healing themself/dodging etc...which already eliminates a lot of the coordination which comes from a healer healing the tank and tank holding aggro and dps avoiding getting damaged and focusing on doing most dps. That's why they decided to have large scale raid events in the open world and not in a dungeon since there won't be any coordination involved...just everyone playing by themselves. However, 5 man groups are different since people are more aware of each other's positions etc then you can take advantage of GW2 combat system of positioning oneself and hence the dungeon system will require a lot more skill than a trad raid encounter from WoW if implemented in GW2.

Edited by anpoon, 06 May 2012 - 11:45 PM.


#28 Lethality

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:17 AM

View PostLootifer, on 06 May 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

There's your mistake right there.

I cant understand people who limit themselves based on previous preconceptions... "Oh PvP in game XYZ was lame thus all PvP in any game must be lame".

Part of ANets philosophy when building WvWvW was to get people EXACTLY LIKE YOU into world PvP.

It's not a mistake at all, it's a preference. It doesn't matter how "good" PvP is because it doesn't interest me in the slightest.. why? Most of all, it's not story-driven. When I PvP, I'm not doing anything to make a difference in the world and move continuity forward.

Since the game is so PvE heavy, getting to the "end" and having to PvP would be s definite shock, not unlike the bait-and-switch in TOR where you go from voice acted story to raid-grind.

I hope ArenaNet has more plans in store for large organized PvE guilds to tackle content as a team.

#29 Timid

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:42 AM

I'm very wary of large scale endgame PvE and I would go so far to say that I don't think it should be the focus of any development time outside open world dynamic events and PvP.

This isn't to say I don't understand your interest or preference for such a thing, but my objection is mostly logistical. As soon as large scale PvE becomes popular or the de facto progression standard, guilds will have to be designed around them. Five player dungeons are perfect in the sense that coordinating five people at a particular time for a particular purpose is fairly trivial. It's easy to build a guild around that number, and easy to find replacements to make up any shortfall. A ten player party is pushing the limits but still doable. After that, you're essentially looking at a raid in the traditional MMO sense of the term. Having experience as an officer and a guild master, I can tell you that running a guild set on large scale PvE content is a massive logistical undertaking. Yes, some people will be willing to spend the time to organise such a guild, and they should have the tools to do so. That said, it should not be required to see content.

Ideally, you want people to be able to participate in all content according to their preferences and skill level. You do not want people to hit a brick wall due to some external social constraint. I understand that even a regular dungeon will require four friends or willing strangers, but the problems inherent in organising 19 other people is of a different order of magnitude. At that point you are compelling (or encouraging) people to see guilds less as a social experience and more as a vehicle for progression. This is where many WoW guilds soured, in my experience. While there was a social element, many people were mainly there because they needed other warm bodies to play the game. They needed more warm bodies than they could actually stand to befriend, and so it became less like a circle of friends and more like an office where you liked some people and were forced to tolerate others.

Moreover, it would be a critical mistake to embed story progression in large scale PvE, because then you are locking people out of the core narrative of the game unless they can find a bigger guild. This was a mistake that WoW made and it's notable that Blizzard admitted as much when they introduced 10 player raids. Think of it this way: you get halfway through a book and can't finish it without finding a dozen other people who are at the same point in the book and available to read at the same time. I doubt you would enjoy that reading experience. That's not to say book clubs can't be fun, but at least they aren't required to finish a book.

Edited by Timid, 07 May 2012 - 12:51 AM.


#30 Lethality

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:36 AM

View PostTimid, on 07 May 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

I'm very wary of large scale endgame PvE and I would go so far to say that I don't think it should be the focus of any development time outside open world dynamic events and PvP. This isn't to say I don't understand your interest or preference for such a thing, but my objection is mostly logistical. As soon as large scale PvE becomes popular or the de facto progression standard, guilds will have to be designed around them. Five player dungeons are perfect in the sense that coordinating five people at a particular time for a particular purpose is fairly trivial. It's easy to build a guild around that number, and easy to find replacements to make up any shortfall. A ten player party is pushing the limits but still doable. After that, you're essentially looking at a raid in the traditional MMO sense of the term. Having experience as an officer and a guild master, I can tell you that running a guild set on large scale PvE content is a massive logistical undertaking. Yes, some people will be willing to spend the time to organise such a guild, and they should have the tools to do so. That said, it should not be required to see content. Ideally, you want people to be able to participate in all content according to their preferences and skill level. You do not want people to hit a brick wall due to some external social constraint. I understand that even a regular dungeon will require four friends or willing strangers, but the problems inherent in organising 19 other people is of a different order of magnitude. At that point you are compelling (or encouraging) people to see guilds less as a social experience and more as a vehicle for progression. This is where many WoW guilds soured, in my experience. While there was a social element, many people were mainly there because they needed other warm bodies to play the game. They needed more warm bodies than they could actually stand to befriend, and so it became less like a circle of friends and more like an office where you liked some people and were forced to tolerate others. Moreover, it would be a critical mistake to embed story progression in large scale PvE, because then you are locking people out of the core narrative of the game unless they can find a bigger guild. This was a mistake that WoW made and it's notable that Blizzard admitted as much when they introduced 10 player raids. Think of it this way: you get halfway through a book and can't finish it without finding a dozen other people who are at the same point in the book and available to read at the same time. I doubt you would enjoy that reading experience. That's not to say book clubs can't be fun, but at least they aren't required to finish a book.

You seem to be that there's trouble gathering 20 people for an event, but this is in fact the very concept behind having a guild in the first place. (And I don't know any 5 person guilds :)The guilds than enjoy being together have been together over many games - in my case, over 9 years! We've become genuine friends... you may not have had that experience, but many have.

Now, I do hear what you're saying and I wouldn't want to "exclude" any players from specific content, especially given what GW2 is looking to achieve in the genre, but I think ArenaNet is between a rock and a hard place. There really has to be some kind of organized PvE content that allows guilds to play together, and if possible, measure progression with each other.

So that's what I'm asking for - for the guilds who prefer to play together - not break off into 5-player units - what can we do? It would be weird in a game called "Guild Wars" to not have guilds really matter at all!




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