2649 replies to this topic

[justaguy]

Given the scaling  mechanic, my hope is that pretty much any quest chain becomes a viable activity for large groups. I could see a guild scheduling nights dedicated to defeating/defending entire zones. If they scale properly, theywill give us tons of challenging content at end game.


And, unlike some games, we wouldn't have to worry about leaving someone out if 26 people show up.

Edited by justaguy, 07 May 2012 - 01:39 AM.

[Lethality]

justaguy, on 07 May 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Given the scaling  mechanic, my hope is that pretty much any quest chain becomes a viable activity for large groups. I could see a guild scheduling nights dedicated to defeating/defending entire zones. If they scale properly, theywill give us tons of challenging content at end game.

But those will all be things we have "done" before, possibly at very low levels.

Obviously my post doesn't take into account that none of us knows exactly what happens in the high level zones, and if there is any sort of unannounced content (like 20 man "dungeons" or something.) So this is mostly speculation, but out of concern that the "guild" construct is next on the chopping block, just as groups no longer matter.

[justaguy]

Lethality, on 07 May 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

But those will all be things we have "done" before, possibly at very low levels.

Obviously my post doesn't take into account that none of us knows exactly what happens in the high level zones, and if there is any sort of unannounced content (like 20 man "dungeons" or something.) So this is mostly speculation, but out of concern that the "guild" construct is next on the chopping block, just as groups no longer matter.

Using that logic, you would only do the phased content once and you would have the same issue.

Remember that they have already stated they do not plan to make any instance content over 5 man. I actually like that.  Having led100s of 25 man raids, I can say I am done with them. I believe that they only offer the illusion of challenge in the form of a gear grind.

I also think that non instances content can offer the fun and challenge we need.

Also remember that they have said they plan to continually add/change dynamic events, possibles often as weekly.

Edited by justaguy, 07 May 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[Pipples]

Lethality, on 06 May 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Thanks for the response, but I guess I'm looking for large-format content - things we all do together. Dungeons are just 5-man, everything else can be done solo. I mean I'm incredibly excited to be able to do all of those things with friends... but I guess, in "Guild" Wars, what will the PvE "Guild" do together?

Translated: 'Will there be raids?'
Answer: The last thing I heard was no, raids are not being planned. If you want to raid, raid PvP

[Lethality]

justaguy, on 07 May 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

Using that logic, you would only do the phased content once and you would have the same issue.

Remember that they have already stated they do not plan to make any instance content over 5 man. I actually like that.  Having led100s of 25 man raids, I can say I am done with them. I believe that they only offer the illusion of challenge in the form of a gear grind.

I also think that non instances content can offer the fun and challenge we need.

Also remember that they have said they plan to continually add/change dynamic events, possibles often as weekly.

I think it's going to be a mistake if they really said they will not make instanced content over 5 man dungeons. What's the point of even having a guild, again?

I'll be glad if there's new events all the time, but that still doesn't deliver a closed guild experience where you work as a team and feel that sense of accomplishment, because anyone running by will also be able to jump in.

[Pipples]

Lethality, on 07 May 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

I think it's going to be a mistake if they really said they will not make instanced content over 5 man dungeons. What's the point of even having a guild, again?

* Guild perks, if they'll be in the game (think I heard they will be)
* Socializing with people you like
* Getting regular groups with competent people
* WvWvW warbands

You DO know this is a PvP-oriented game, correct?

[Timid]

I'm not suggesting it's impossible (or even improbable) for people to be in a guild of 20-30 people they enjoy hanging out with, only that it may be unfair to require it. Just like some people enjoy being part of a big, globe-spanning online community, some people enjoy more intimate settings with fewer people. The tricky part is that creating content for larger groups excludes smaller groups by definition, whereas the reverse is not true. While content for smaller groups does force the larger group to split up into smaller squads, at least they can still do the content.

Ideally, it would be nice if dungeons could scale, with no effective difference in challenge or reward, but I'm not sure how finely tuned the dungeons are or if this would be feasible.

What's the point of being in a guild if there's no large scale PvE content? This question seems to point to the problem I alluded to earlier. The primary point of being in a guild should be to play the game with people you enjoy; there can be other bonuses or incentives, but once that no longer becomes the driving force behind a guild, the nature of guilding changes from a social community to a (semi)professional community, i.e. play versus work. There's nothing wrong with the latter existing (e.g. a competitive PvP guild), but the game shouldn't make social guilding a liability.

Edited by Timid, 07 May 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[UssjTrunks]

Leveling alts?

Each race has a different personal story, and each race has three variations of that story, so if PvP is your thing, you'll want to experience all the possible storylines.

I'm also certain that Anet will be adding new content regularly like they did with GW1.

Edited by UssjTrunks, 07 May 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[justaguy]

Pipples, on 07 May 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

* perks, if they'll be in the game (think I heard they will be)
* Socializing with people you like
* Getting regular groups with competent people
* WvWvW warbands

You DO know this is a PvP-oriented game, correct?

I disagree that it will be a pvp focused game. I there's room for both, and that arenanet is dedicated to making both engaging.  I don'tbelieve that raids are neededtomakethat happen, though.

I think this one is an issue of time will tell. I personally believe they will make a pve experience that is as fun as pvp.

Edited by justaguy, 07 May 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[Ubung]

Ok I was somewhat concerned by the lack of activities for a guild to participate in together so I came up with an idea that can hopefully keep most people happy. I posted this on the beta forums before they removed posting priviliges.



"Ok I have a suggestion. If raids dont fit in the this game then why dont we take the Arena Net ethos and apply it to raiding.
How about an elite Dynamic event that can be played normally or there would be an option to play it in guild mode.

Guild mode increases the difficulty (harder hitting attacks, faster casts, whatever suits the boss but doesnt take too much dev time) and allows you to create your own instance of the dynamic event with your raid group.

The mode would have scaling allowing for raids of 5 – 40 people (exact numbers are debatable). Since its already a normal DE then it shouldnt take up much dev time.

No grind, all gear is the same lvl as dungeon / pvp gear it just looks different keeping with the no gear grind part of Arena Nets philosophy.

Again details can be altered to hone the idea but I think it fits the guild wars 2 theme."


EDIT to respond to some concerns mentioned in the thread.

This idea allows for competitiveness between guilds.
This idea removes the organisational nightmare by scaling to groups.
This idea does not take up many dev resources.
This idea does not focus on raiding as the end game actiivity.

[Timid]

The idea of creating a private DE for guilds seems interesting, although I'm not sure if there are any technical limitations involved. Would the advantage of such a system, as opposed to open world DEs, be that they are on-demand and private?

Although I participated in and enjoyed raiding in other games, I'd like to see GW2 try to walk a different path, if only because the genre will never grow if it keeps trying the same old things. As players, we grow comfortable with tradition, and new things can be frightening. It's ineveitable that as GW2 becomes more popular, we will see a lot of people wondering why this game can't be a little more like the game they played before. GW2 can incorporate elements of other games, but it should do so in a way that makes sense for GW2 and what it is trying to achieve.

[kash]

Timid, on 07 May 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

The idea of creating a private DE for guilds seems interesting, although I'm not sure if there are any technical limitations involved. Would the advantage of such a system, as opposed to open world DEs, be that they are on-demand and private?

Although I participated in and enjoyed raiding in other games, I'd like to see GW2 try to walk a different path, if only because the genre will never grow if it keeps trying the same old things. As players, we grow comfortable with tradition, and new things can be frightening. It's ineveitable that as GW2 becomes more popular, we will see a lot of people wondering why this game can't be a little more like the game they played before. GW2 can incorporate elements of other games, but it should do so in a way that makes sense for GW2 and what it is trying to achieve.

I think both of your posts are better worded then I could have put it. Lethality, what's the point of a guild if not to be in a world with other guilds? There's no competition in an instanced box, and the most challenging aspect of leading raids I've ever encountered was deciding who had to sit one out. I'm looking forward to cranking out some open world content, especially elite DE's and other events, but mostly WvWvW. All the better if others can tag along and see our guilds real progression, not just our gear.

[Phys]

why would what you want be endgame anyhow, what if it exists as side game. Anyhow its a bad idea for what they are working with. If they do something that would appeal to that group, it would be open world and assceible to anyone. I think someone mentioned some open world dungeons already, with bosses etc.
If you want an instance to yourself for it, i dont think that is really what they are looking to have.

[Lowenhigh]

Lethality, on 06 May 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Thanks for the response, but I guess I'm looking for large-format content - things we all do together. Dungeons are just 5-man, everything else can be done solo. I mean I'm incredibly excited to be able to do all of those things with friends... but I guess, in "Guild" Wars, what will the PvE "Guild" do together?

Maybe this is something that hasn't been revealed yet, to some extent... perhaps there's 20 man "Dungeons" or something along those line coming...



Oh definitely... always fun to be had just messing around, helping guildies level! As for alts, I never play them myself, however if any game has me thinking about it, it's GW2! Too many of the classes just look too fun to play just one!

I am worried a bit that we're headed into the TOR direction, where most of the players prefer to play solo and there's very little social interaction at all. They'e more or less removed the need for a "group/party" construct anyway, so I'm trying to find what the "guild" construct will offer to the PvE player, in the form of content to do together.

Seems like there should be something, no?

I read the whole thread before making this reply to you Lethality. I am trying to be helpful.

The game will not "do" for you what WoW does for you. WoW caters to large guilds with big raids, and focuses ALL of its pve on that. I played WoW for years and led a guild that was very successful for two of those years in pve. This doesn't mean that you should be sad that it doesn't have your style of player in mind, thou. Far from it. Giant world events are going to full the role of massive boss raids with your guild, as you will need coordination to take these encounters down. You will build notariety and actually make a huge name for yourselves as a pve guild when you take forts and keeps in wvwvw, and you will have reeeeeally hard dungeons to play with smaller grps of guildees.

The only reason that guilds focused on killing bosses before other guilds is because they want recognition on the server. If you are the top .05% that race for world kills, it makes no sense to design content for the world first guys, because they pay .05% of the bills for the game. Arena net needs to spend time making content that more people can enjoy that that.

Fortunately for you, there is a ton of stuff to get notariety for your guild, and a lot to keep a large group of people enetertained 5 or 6 nights a week easy between dynamic events, dungeons, and wvwvw. You just need to broaden your mind, and open your mind to the idea that there is more awesome stuff to experience than just what Wow has sto offer.

[Elk]

My guild had a. Good few people in beta, most of the time we went off in a random direction doing hearts and events (all got turned into pigs, killed by naga, killed a sea of bears)
We tried a dungeon and failed miserably, but havin to split into groups of 5 ruined it slightly (but I'd rather have hat than waiting around for an extra 5 players or something). Some of the bigger chain events (like the swamp behemoth) are fun for a big group.
Don't forge WvW - you need a group to be effective there

[Lethality]

Pipples, on 07 May 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

* Guild perks, if they'll be in the game (think I heard they will be)
* Socializing with people you like
* Getting regular groups with competent people
* WvWvW warbands

You DO know this is a PvP-oriented game, correct?

I don't believe ArenaNet is selling it that way, but feel free to correct me with information that I'm wrong.

Ubung, on 07 May 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

Ok I was somewhat concerned by the lack of activities for a guild to participate in together so I came up with an idea that can hopefully keep most people happy. I posted this on the beta forums before they removed posting priviliges.



"Ok I have a suggestion. If raids dont fit in the this game then why dont we take the Arena Net ethos and apply it to raiding.
How about an elite Dynamic event that can be played normally or there would be an option to play it in guild mode.

Guild mode increases the difficulty (harder hitting attacks, faster casts, whatever suits the boss but doesnt take too much dev time) and allows you to create your own instance of the dynamic event with your raid group.

The mode would have scaling allowing for raids of 5 – 40 people (exact numbers are debatable). Since its already a normal DE then it shouldnt take up much dev time.

No grind, all gear is the same lvl as dungeon / pvp gear it just looks different keeping with the no gear grind part of Arena Nets philosophy.

Again details can be altered to hone the idea but I think it fits the guild wars 2 theme."


EDIT to respond to some concerns mentioned in the thread.

This idea allows for competitiveness between guilds.
This idea removes the organisational nightmare by scaling to groups.
This idea does not take up many dev resources.
This idea does not focus on raiding as the end game actiivity.

Great idea, I hope ArenaNet has plans similar to these in the works. It only makes sense, being an MMO with such a guild focus!

[Timid]

Lethality, on 07 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

It only makes sense, being an MMO with such a guild focus!

I'm not sure the game has a guild focus of the sort you're implying. Yes, the series is called Guild Wars, but that's a reference to an event that occurred before the first game (see http://wiki.guildwar.../The_Guild_Wars). If anything the term Guild Wars implies PvP, not PvE competition. That's not to say there's no room for PvE, just that the original game never was designed for competitive PvE raiding.

[First Sword]

I haven't seen anyone mention the Orr zone yet. The whole zone is supposed to be a massively difficult open world zone. I'm sure that it will keep high level PVE players entertained for quite some time. Between exploring and completing "elite" max level quest chains, getting skill points, and trying at meta events in a zone which is already supposed to be the most difficult PVE environment, I bet your guild will have plenty to do. It won't be like a typical WoW raid thing "Okay guys, today we clear through X boss, tomorrow at 7 we clear the rest." But, I imagine you could easily entertain yourselves by grouping up and exploring a new area, or setting off a particularly difficult DE chain.

[Dream Catcher]

Lethality, on 07 May 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

But those will all be things we have "done" before, possibly at very low levels.

Obviously my post doesn't take into account that none of us knows exactly what happens in the high level zones, and if there is any sort of unannounced content (like 20 man "dungeons" or something.) So this is mostly speculation, but out of concern that the "guild" construct is next on the chopping block, just as groups no longer matter.

It's blindingly obvious what the intent behind this thread is, it is to once again raise the topic of large scale raid content. This has been discussed to death. The number of people that could participate in dungeons is totally subjective to the individual posting about it, that means there is always going to be some individuals who are less than happy with what is available. Lets leave it at that, instead of going over this whole topic once again.

Edited by Dream Catcher, 07 May 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Neato]

What about the elder dragon and other world bosses? I'm sure those'll be hard.

[Castegyre]

Part of the problem with this discussion, in several of it's incarnations including the alluded to thread on the official forums, is the rational behind the people making the requests.

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing the things that are in the game already with any group including guild mates.

No one knows how extensive, difficult, or crowded all of that content will be. So no one can adequately claim those reasons as excuses to want special content at this time.

The only excuse left is that some people simply do not want to play with others.

At one time what people now consider 'raids', and lets not pretend that this isn't what the discussion is about, did not exist. They came into existence for two primary reasons. One was because it allowed the developers to tune content to very specific parameters. But the other one, the main one if you ever paid attention to older game communities, was competition. High end PvE guilds were fighting with each other over world bosses and other limited access open spawn content. The easiest way to stop the whining this competition caused was put it all in instances. We can thank SOE for a lot of that, and we can thank Blizzard for handing out cheap Kool-Aid for the masses to drink to convince them it's the way things should be.

But there is, based on what we know of the game at this time, no reason to compete for things like boss spawns. The game is not designed that way, it's actually designed in a completely opposite direction where people are supposed to cooperate instead of compete. So that reason for instanced segregation of the player base is nullified.

Tuned content is the only real reason left to request more than the 5 man dungeons that are already in the game, but that is also not a guild specific activity so people need to stop using that excuse when they bring it up. Whether or not ANet decided to add larger group content later is up to them. Who knows. But if they do I certainly hope the reason is not to cater to those few people that would rather hide in guild chat and avoid the rest of the community.

[Dream Catcher]

I couldn't have put it better myself, this game aims to foster inclusion instead of exclusion, that's the way it has been built from the ground up. No 5 man dungeons do not go against that either, as it is much easier to pick up 4 randoms of any profession (not healer, tank, dps), than it so try and manage 10 or even 20 individuals or even worse try and build a group of 20 players from random individuals.

Edited by Dream Catcher, 07 May 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[Hirsty]

If I hit 80 and had done 'everything'
I would go through all the zones again, checking out DE's.
Looking for skins.
Getting as many weapons as I can from Dungeon rewards, and most of all, make a new character or help out some friends

[Cracken]

In the end, this is just like the 2000th "GW2 needs raids" thread.

[Lethality]

Neato, on 07 May 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

What about the elder dragon and other world bosses? I'm sure those'll be hard.

I'm sure they will, but since they're in an open world, what is keeping the zerg from taking away the challenge of a team coming together and beating them?  Yes, there will be scaling but there's a limit to how far that can go and the further it does, the further away it gets from the "hand-crafted" feel of events, which are always better than random AI fights.

ArenaNet isn't dumb, I'm sure they have to have some plans to keep guild playing, competing and having a good time, other than PvP... right?

Cracken, on 07 May 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

In the end, this is just like the 2000th "GW2 needs raids" thread.

I never used the word raid... but based on what we know, GW2 definitely needs some kind of large format organized PvE content for guilds to do as a whole.

Castegyre, on 07 May 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Tuned content is the only real reason left to request more than the 5 man dungeons that are already in the game, but that is also not a guild specific activity so people need to stop using that excuse when they bring it up. Whether or not ANet decided to add larger group content later is up to them. Who knows. But if they do I certainly hope the reason is not to cater to those few people that would rather hide in guild chat and avoid the rest of the community.

So, you're suggesting being in a guild is now anti-social? I feel the same way about people who want to solo all the time and turn off chat entirely... BioWare fosters this kind of fan.

Guilds came together for a reason, many times they are real life friends or family - sometimes they met in game. But like any team, the more you play together, the better you get and the more fun it is. Right now I'm not seeing any content in the game where _guilds_ are the focus.

If that continues to be true, I feel that will be one of the first big "black-eyes" that ArenaNet will deal with after launch, and be scrambling to change their position on it just as BioWare has done with so many aspects of TOR.

[Craywulf]

Anyone bothered to mention crafting or activities like Keg brawl or snowball fights? How about guilds setting up search parties for newly created DEs? There a lot more going on in PvE than just dungeons.

[Ubung]

Its always very difficult to discuss bringing something like raiding to GW2. This is mainly due to the way it was done in wow. Now everyone who even smells the world raid comes and loudly demands that they dont want that crap in their game. I dont really blame them for this view as wow did make it pretty bad however it would be nice if people could be rational and consider what were trying to do.

Were trying to bring the good parts of raiding without bringing in the bad.

No gear grind (reinforces no exclusion, get to 80 and craft some gear then your rdy to guild elite DE)
No elitism
No exclusion (The DE would scale to the amount of people doing it)

Just trying to bring something for the large guild that wants to do a boss by themselves without bothering anyone else.

[Krazzar]

So right after the BWE the most common complaint was that the game was so difficult it was broken and a week later people are trying to create even more difficult content. Large guilds will do what everyone else does, play the game, what that means depends on the guild, there's no need to have specific content set aside for large groups if the game is designed well. The problem is other games have a game within the game that holds all the value, apply that value to everything and you eliminate the need for that game within the game. I have no doubt scaling will be adjusted in large events and guilds will be effective organizers in WvW.

Yes, "raiding" was never explicitly stated, but it was defined to the letter again and again. Call it what it is.

[Castegyre]

Lethality, on 07 May 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So, you're suggesting being in a guild is now anti-social? I feel the same way about people who want to solo all the time and turn off chat entirely... BioWare fosters this kind of fan.

Guilds came together for a reason, many times they are real life friends or family - sometimes they met in game. But like any team, the more you play together, the better you get and the more fun it is. Right now I'm not seeing any content in the game where _guilds_ are the focus.

If that continues to be true, I feel that will be one of the first big "black-eyes" that ArenaNet will deal with after launch, and be scrambling to change their position on it just as BioWare has done with so many aspects of TOR.

1) No

2) Irrelevant to my post and the game in general as it stands. The game doesn't need to hand any one small group special content on a platter. If the point of a guild is to play together with friends, as it should be, then go do it. Nothing is stopping you with what is already available unless your intent is to be anti social to the rest of the community in the process.

3) TOR is a perfect example of where flawed designs need to be recognized and addressed instead of propagated further, which seems to be exactly what is attempting to be achieved here.

[Underdog]

Pipples, on 07 May 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

* Guild perks, if they'll be in the game (think I heard they will be)
* Socializing with people you like
* Getting regular groups with competent people
* WvWvW warbands

You DO know this is a PvP-oriented game, correct?

you know people keep saying "this is a PvP-oriented game"  and I for one am just fine with that.

But good lord if its so PVP -oriented why the hell is there so much PVE.  you have seen the citys,lore,crafting,personal story, DE's, Explore able  Dungeons.  

whats PVP got, five man's and WvWvW half of WvWvW is PVE

Edited by Underdog, 07 May 2012 - 03:04 PM.