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If you think Thief sucks, this video is for you!


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#1 Fion

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:26 PM

I see so many thief 'whining' threads on various forums, and someone here. The thief has no survivability, the thief sucks shit in melee, the thief dies to fast. I find most of these are from people who are trying to play thief in melee like old MMOGs, stand there and trade blows.

This video shows a skilled thief in play, owning the **** out of 20's Lieutenant mobs. Switching from ranged to melee as the need arises and building toward that fast and heavy damage and mobility.


Edited by AXE COP, 19 May 2012 - 08:34 PM.


#2 Sinister_Ork

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:51 PM

I've always enjoyed Quality Discourse.  It's nice to see some thief PvE footage rather than the mass amounts of PvP videos.
You're right though, he did do a good job and the thief is an exceptional class.

#3 IDarko

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:48 PM

It's an enjoyable video. It nicely shows how the thief should and can perform in PvE. The clicking of skills annoys me tho.. >.>

But this video obviously won't change people's minds regarding PvP. And most discussions are about PvP.

Edited by IDarko, 09 May 2012 - 11:48 PM.


#4 mrbig

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:10 AM

View PostIDarko, on 09 May 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

It's an enjoyable video. It nicely shows how the thief should and can perform in PvE. The clicking of skills annoys me tho.. >.>

But this video obviously won't change people's minds regarding PvP. And most discussions are about PvP.

That's right, The thief is perfectly fine in PvE ( those complaining about the thief in PvE should really L2P).

But PvP is not like PvE: in PvE evrything works ( like steal), in PvP just.... no.

#5 Geikamir

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:35 AM

Not to sound like a sour-puss or anything, but what was so impressive about that footage? All he did was basically spam LDB whenever it was available. He even stood around aimlessly several times in the middle of combat instead of switching to pistol at range. That's not saying anything about the Thief, but I didn't think that guy was that good. I mean, he was ok I guess.

#6 nekura

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:41 AM

View PostGeikamir, on 10 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Not to sound like a sour-puss or anything, but what was so impressive about that footage? All he did was basically spam LDB whenever it was available. He even stood around aimlessly several times in the middle of combat instead of switching to pistol at range. That's not saying anything about the Thief, but I didn't think that guy was that good. I mean, he was ok I guess.

I agree. There's no excuse for him to level to 20 and still be that bad at the game. The zones were cool, though...

#7 Craywulf

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:09 AM

It was decent for a beginner, but certainly not great gameplay or even a good understanding of how and when to use the utility skills they were equipped.

#8 Steb

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:10 AM

I agree with the others on both points.

1. Comparing a class in PvE and PvP is completely irrelevant.

2. The footage was pretty unimpressive, Yes, he's better then 99% of the terrible press players that released older footage, but the footage here is less then stellar.

#9 Craywulf

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:14 AM

View Postnekura, on 10 May 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

I agree. There's no excuse for him to level to 20 and still be that bad at the game. The zones were cool, though...
This is a prime example of how levels do not equate to player skill, which is one the many reasons why I have long advocated getting rid of numerical leveling. If you didn't know what level he was or the mobs, you wouldn't be making the assumptions that he's suppose to be good.  The gameplay tells us more than the statistical information.

Edited by Craywulf, 10 May 2012 - 01:14 AM.


#10 Geikamir

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:54 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 10 May 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

This is a prime example of how levels do not equate to player skill, which is one the many reasons why I have long advocated getting rid of numerical leveling. If you didn't know what level he was or the mobs, you wouldn't be making the assumptions that he's suppose to be good.  The gameplay tells us more than the statistical information.

I completely agree. I think the original intention of the game actually was to provide a level-less type of gameplay experience, but just have the levels there for novelty and as a way to make the average MMO player feel comfortable. I think it was taken out because it was too foreign for most people.

#11 Craywulf

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:06 AM

View PostGeikamir, on 10 May 2012 - 01:54 AM, said:

I completely agree. I think the original intention of the game actually was to provide a level-less type of gameplay experience, but just have the levels there for novelty and as a way to make the average MMO player feel comfortable. I think it was taken out because it was too foreign for most people.
I just hope they have an option to remove the experience bar and mob level. I won't be paying attention to it. I'm going respect and fear my enemies as they should be based on the visual cues, not the math.

#12 Geikamir

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:10 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 10 May 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I just hope they have an option to remove the experience bar and mob level. I won't be paying attention to it. I'm going respect and fear my enemies as they should be based on the visual cues, not the math.

I like this idea.

#13 jeff23

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:23 AM

View PostGeikamir, on 10 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Not to sound like a sour-puss or anything, but what was so impressive about that footage? All he did was basically spam LDB whenever it was available. He even stood around aimlessly several times in the middle of combat instead of switching to pistol at range. That's not saying anything about the Thief, but I didn't think that guy was that good. I mean, he was ok I guess.

QFT, call the mods to delete this useless thread.

#14 Jaehan

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:45 AM

View PostGeikamir, on 10 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Not to sound like a sour-puss or anything, but what was so impressive about that footage? All he did was basically spam LDB whenever it was available. He even stood around aimlessly several times in the middle of combat instead of switching to pistol at range. That's not saying anything about the Thief, but I didn't think that guy was that good. I mean, he was ok I guess.

Have to agree with Geikamir on this one. The video wasn't some high-skilled player. All he did was spam LDB. He wasn't "Owning" anything, as the OP suggested. I wouldn't really judge the Thief based on this video, at all - if I were new to Guild Wars 2 and saw this video, I would dismiss it entirely and look at other videos because a few, very simple things:
  • He spammed one skill.
  • He blew his dodges unnecessarily on a few occasions.
  • He has no actual damage output aside from stacking bleed, from spaming LDB. He does 72 damage with his "1" Skill. I did more at level 14 ( when I got my next dagger / dagger weapon set ).
If anything, later in the video, some of the more obvious imbalance issues become more apparent than an at-a-glance or on-paper comparison. Especially around 7:35, when the warrior can straight-up tank enemies and deliver nasty damage. If you watch closely, each time that warrior swings her maul, you see the health dip - and not the "dip" that you see with a pulse of Bleed damage, as you can see that pulse after the impact of her maul.


I am fairly certain that none of us have ever said that, " The thief is broken. It needs a complete overhaul of all skills, mechanic, and traits."

In fact, everyone who is on the side of the fence saying that the Thief is (here is the key phrase) not balanced to the other professions has offered various suggestions as to what could be done to the Thief that would make them far more balanced towards the other professions, without changing a great deal about the Thief itself or the playstyle. A few changes to Steal and a few other various tweaks being the main things.

I mean, that's why anyone even bothers to come here -- because they enjoy playing the Thief. Changing that playstyle wouldn't serve anyone.

#15 LethalConcept

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:45 AM

By the time you are lvl 20, i wouldve expected you to atleast know that the keybindings for utilities,heal and ult are such in a horrible place (being from 6-0) that you wouldve rebinded them because its unpractical to try and reach your hand over to press the buttons, resulting you in clicking them, i really dislike videos of clickers

Clickers in videos puts me off and i just dont watch the rest lol

Edited by LethalConcept, 10 May 2012 - 02:48 AM.


#16 Takato

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:55 AM

View PostGeikamir, on 10 May 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Not to sound like a sour-puss or anything, but what was so impressive about that footage? All he did was basically spam LDB whenever it was available. He even stood around aimlessly several times in the middle of combat instead of switching to pistol at range. That's not saying anything about the Thief, but I didn't think that guy was that good. I mean, he was ok I guess.

This.

LDB Spam, withdraw/dodge away, let your initiative regen, repeat.

Nothing impressive to be honest.

EDIT : I actually laughed at how the guy was amazed by the thief though.

"Dude the thief is all about positioning."
"And this game's combat is all about positioning."
"Which leads me to believe that this game is all about being a thief."

Edited by Takato, 10 May 2012 - 04:00 AM.


#17 Craywulf

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:04 AM

View PostLethalConcept, on 10 May 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

By the time you are lvl 20, i wouldve expected you to atleast know that the keybindings for utilities,heal and ult are such in a horrible place (being from 6-0) that you wouldve rebinded them because its unpractical to try and reach your hand over to press the buttons, resulting you in clicking them, i really dislike videos of clickers

Clickers in videos puts me off and i just dont watch the rest lol
Again with the assumptions that levels equates to player skill. Even rebinding the skills doesn't negate bad gameplay. Players are going have their own skill level, regardless of some litmus test or standard by which a niche group of judgmental people have declared.

#18 Steb

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostJaehan, on 10 May 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

I am fairly certain that none of us have ever said that, " The thief is broken. It needs a complete overhaul of all skills, mechanic, and traits."

I have.

Link to my reasoning in an earlier post below:

http://www.guildwars...ost__p__1401548

Edited by Steb, 10 May 2012 - 04:27 AM.


#19 Neato

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:36 AM

The guy died to 3 normal mobs.... real impressive... *rolls eyes*

#20 mrbig

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:22 AM

View PostSteb, on 10 May 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

I have.

Link to my reasoning in an earlier post below:

http://www.guildwars...ost__p__1401548

Even if agree with almost everything you said in your post, there's no way they're going to (basically) rebuild the thief from the ground.

We should just focus on those very big design flaws that are inherently to the thief ( Steal, OH weapons, lack of versatility, some mess with traits and some weap combo being very sub-par), without demanding radical changes ( even if agree that it could gofor the best).

The thief, in his current state, can work. The devs should just work on his major flaws, and fix them. Then maybe the class will be "fine" .

Anyway, people will always complain about the thief, and it's all because of his very design, where the devs clearly failed ( for various reasons).

But the class can still be highly competitive and absolutely enjoyable. But needs fixing. Really. Quite like the engeneer.

edit:

View PostCraywulf, on 10 May 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I just hope they have an option to remove the experience bar and mob level. I won't be paying attention to it. I'm going respect and fear my enemies as they should be based on the visual cues, not the math.

it would be a nonsense if they don't do this. I mean, wasn't they for the "watch the combat , not the UI" mood ?

Devs are really trying to appeal the masses, and  the further they derail from their primal idea , the more we get "used" to what they do.
If i think at how the game should have been when they announced it, and how it is now, it's a totally different game.

Edited by mrbig, 10 May 2012 - 06:40 AM.


#21 MethaneGas

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:31 AM

He's not the best, but he's not too bad either. Like how he didn't just stand there and attack, like I've seen in many other videos... he's still new tho :P   but who isnt

Edited by MethaneGas, 10 May 2012 - 06:32 AM.


#22 LethalConcept

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:37 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 10 May 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

Again with the assumptions that levels equates to player skill. Even rebinding the skills doesn't negate bad gameplay. Players are going have their own skill level, regardless of some litmus test or standard by which a niche group of judgmental people have declared.

No i never said i assumed that lvl equated to player skill, i just stated that by the time it took to get to lvl 20 (which was still quite abit of time, since i played and got to lvl 20 during BWE) that to play effectively you should rebind your keys, and i looked for a way to do that when i got my first two utilities at the esc key
not a standard set, but to play at maximum effeciency i can safely state that you will definately want to rebind your 6-0 keys (maybe not 6, some people can reach that far comfortably) to shave of the extra second or move while casting because it just helps you control your character better

about the vid in the OP, its not spectacular, however if you are look for something, THIS vid shows great spvp with shortbow and dagger dagger



edit: the person in the video is not me

Edited by LethalConcept, 10 May 2012 - 06:58 AM.


#23 Politikon

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:49 AM

Nice video this community needs some more positive reinforcement going around.

Edited by Politikon, 10 May 2012 - 06:49 AM.


#24 Bismarck

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:52 AM

In the long run, videos that involve people with good and entertaining personalities will ultimately be a lot less common than simply "skilled" gameplay. The video Fion linked to has a lot more personality to it than the vast majority of videos out there.

Now, I'm just angry that last minute issues kept me from recording last BWE :(. Oh well, maybe I can throw something together with footage in the coming stress test on monday.

#25 mrbig

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:59 AM

View PostLethalConcept, on 10 May 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:


about the vid in the OP, its not spectacular, however if you are look for something, THIS vid shows great spvp with shortbow and dagger dagger



that was quite  the build i was running with, having similar results ( he put shadowstep and infiltrator's signet , unneeded, but is italian and mistakes can be forgiven to fellow countrymen :D )  As i said multiple times, shortbow, D/D and P/P really cover all thief needs. And this video shows why :D

#26 LethalConcept

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:03 AM

View Postmrbig, on 10 May 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

that was quite  the build i was running with, having similar results ( he put shadowstep and infiltrator's signet , unneeded, but is italian and mistakes can be forgiven to fellow countrymen :D )  As i said multiple times, shortbow, D/D and P/P really cover all thief needs. And this video shows why :D

agreed, sword/dagger, having one pistol with a dagger or sword with pistol just do not ever make up for the versatility of the other sets (ive tried all of them)
pistol for ranged damage
dagger/dagger for close range burst damage and aoe
shortbow for movement and aoe damage

actually that is roll for initiative, so his 3 utilities were roll for initiative, devourers venom and infiltrators signet
if i was him i would take out infiltrators signet for shadowstep

#27 Bismarck

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:05 AM

I'll show all of you dagger/pistol naysayers! :P

#28 Ezisha

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:13 AM

I played a Charr Thief briefly in PvE and loved it. Right from the beginning I liked the fun and the feel of it. I’ve seen some love and hate on the Thief but it’s the way you use it. It will be interesting to test in PvP but I believe there will be some killer combos and tactics once everyone gets used to the mechanics of the profession. I loved running up and jumping over the enemy and starting the summersaults! Not getting hit was quite useful too…

But I can imagine that PvP would be quite different.

#29 Craywulf

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:57 AM

View PostLethalConcept, on 10 May 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

No i never said i assumed that lvl equated to player skill, i just stated that by the time it took to get to lvl 20 (which was still quite abit of time, since i played and got to lvl 20 during BWE) that to play effectively you should rebind your keys, and i looked for a way to do that when i got my first two utilities at the esc key
not a standard set, but to play at maximum effeciency i can safely state that you will definately want to rebind your 6-0 keys (maybe not 6, some people can reach that far comfortably) to shave of the extra second or move while casting because it just helps you control your character better
Why level 20? why not level 12 or level 35? Why does levels correlate to when a player should be adept enough to rebind their keys (to ultimately improve the the quality of their play)? I get what your saying in terms of utility skills openning up at certain levels but I don't think it correlates to whether the quality of their gameplay should or shouldn't improve. There are plenty of clickers that are better players than keybind typers.

#30 LethalConcept

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:00 AM

View PostBismarck, on 10 May 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

I'll show all of you dagger/pistol naysayers! :P
i tried this in pvp, i tried to make it work D:
just didnt work for me ;P
gl and hf to you!

View PostCraywulf, on 10 May 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Why level 20? why not level 12 or level 35? Why does levels correlate to when a player should be adept enough to rebind their keys (to ultimately improve the the quality of their play)? I get what your saying in terms of utility skills openning up at certain levels but I don't think it correlates to whether the quality of their gameplay should or shouldn't improve. There are plenty of clickers that are better players than keybind typers.

because he was lvl 20 in the video lol
agreed everyone has their personal preference of playstyle, it just feels to me, when i played that it was much more faster paced, more flowing and i had more control of my character when i keybinded the other buttons closer to my left hand compared to when it was too far away and i decided to click them