34 replies to this topic

[The Prestige]

These are the three BIG things I think ArenaNet needs to revamp with Clones and Phantasms:

• Phantasms should stay active as long as the Mesmer is in combat, or if the Phantasm is killed.

• Phantasms should never be replaced or overwritten by a Clone.

• Both Phantasms and Clones should display the Mesmer icon when targeted by an enemy player.

What are your thoughts?

[jondifool]

The Prestige, on 19 May 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

These are the three BIG things I think ArenaNet needs to revamp with Clones and Phantasms:

• Phantasms should stay active as long as the Mesmer is in combat, or if the Phantasm is killed.

• Phantasms should never be replaced or overwritten by a Clone.

• Both Phantasms and Clones should display the Mesmer icon when targeted by an enemy player.

What are your thoughts?

Disagree and discussing thesse issues out of context as oneliner statements i am not sure is that productive, but lets give it a try

I quess what you say with first statement is that mesmer should not die when a target die? I don't see a real good reason to make phantasm into pets, so i don't get the stay active part, what i think is that you should be able to shatter illusions that share your current target, but keeping thosse you have on other targets alive. That way you can put up some phantasms as long duration curses- while finishing up another target and still get the shattering vallue out of the clones-when fighting more targets. Now i realise that Mesmer is a 1vs1 character in most of its mechanics, and every thing that make it usefull against more opponents is worth considering.

the second statement- i really don't feel is the right suggestion. And it just contribute to making phantasm inot more off a pet. idon't think its needed. But lets again just realise that discussing this as a fix, does not make sense unless we are also taking into account what its fixing. What is it ?

The last part is ok but it shouldn't really matter for phantasm as they are already different. But sure, for ArenaNet to live up to its designfilosofi and encourage players to look at the action and not the UI thats a needed part..

[That Happy Cat]

These issues have already been discussed extensively in various threads.

Point 1: How do you feel about illusions disappearing when target dies?, also in Phantasms

Point 2: Phantasms

Point 3 is a bug (at least regarding Clones, pointless with Phantasms) that has been noted since before the BWE.

Edited by That Happy Cat, 19 May 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[The Prestige]

jondifool, on 19 May 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

-snip-

Huh?
-
I don't have a problem with Clones dying when the target dies because it's easier to create clones. Phantasms on the other hand have more important effects and they are expensive to summon. Which is why I think it's broken for a cheap clone to replace a phantasm when you're capped on duplicates and you happen to dodge roll.

I also think it's a crying shame to have them immediately vanish when your target dies. Say you're doing a boss where you have to handle adds first... you summon your phantasm, kill the first add and boom... Phantasm is gone and on a long cooldown. Let them die if A) they are targeted and get killed B.) You shatter them or C) You leave combat. None of these options turn them into a "pet".
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I sometimes think that people disagree just for the thrill of being objectionable.

Edited by The Prestige, 19 May 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Saosin]

The Prestige, on 19 May 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Huh?
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I don't have a problem with Clones dying when the target dies because it's easier to create clones. Phantasms on the other hand have more important effects and they are expensive to summon. Which is why I think it's broken for a cheap clone to replace a phantasm when you're capped on duplicates and you happen to dodge roll.

I also think it's a crying shame to have them immediately vanish when your target dies. Say you're doing a boss where you have to handle adds first... you summon your phantasm, kill the first add and boom... Phantasm is gone and on a long cooldown. Let them die if A) they are targeted and get killed B.) You shatter them or C) You leave combat. None of these options turn them into a "pet".
-
I sometimes think that people disagree just for the thrill of being objectionable.

Phantams are basically a single target DOT that you can blow up (and enemies can kill). If in the scenario you describe you waste your phantasm on a soon to be dead target then you're playing badly, same as any other class who doesn't manage their cds.
That said, I think it would make a good trait for phantasms to survive after their target dies. Maybe a little bit OP though (compared to other traits).

I agree 100% on the issue of clones replacing phantasms

Edited by Saosin, 19 May 2012 - 03:52 PM.

[The Prestige]

Saosin, on 19 May 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Phantams are basically a single target DOT that you can blow up (and enemies can kill). If in the scenario you describe you waste your phantasm on a soon to be dead target then you're playing badly, same as any other class who doesn't manage their cds.
That said, I think it would make a good trait for phantasms to survive after their target dies. Maybe a little bit OP though (compared to other traits).

I agree 100% on the issue of clones replacing phantasms

Phantasms aren't all "DoT's"... some of them redirect damage, create defensive bubbles and if traited correctly provides regen to your allies. And again, they are expensive to summon.

[Saosin]

The Prestige, on 19 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Phantasms aren't all "DoT's"... some of them redirect damage, create defensive bubbles and if traited correctly provides regen to your allies. And again, they are expensive to summon.

Ok that was a bad generalisation on my part, but the point was that they are balanced to be used on a target that isn't going to die straight away, that is just called playing badly. Ofc this makes them inneffective in a scenario with lots of weak enemies, but you're using an ineffective build for that fight if you try. Its like a guardian taking condition removal skills against enemies that don't use conditions.
And I have no idea what you mean by them being expensive to summon, the cds on the weapon skill phantasms are 15-30ish and the utility skills are about 60 iirc. How is that different to your average skill?

Edited by Saosin, 19 May 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[The Prestige]

Saosin, on 19 May 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

And I have no idea what you mean by them being expensive to summon, the cds on the weapon skill phantasms are 15-30ish and the utility skills are about 60 iirc. How is that different to your average skill?

Expensive to summon when compared to popping out Clones.

[Xizidor]

The Prestige, on 19 May 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

• Phantasms should stay active as long as the Mesmer is in combat, or if the Phantasm is killed.

• Phantasms should never be replaced or overwritten by a Clone.

• Both Phantasms and Clones should display the Mesmer icon when targeted by an enemy player.

1. I don't think this is a problem. The phantasm is specifically created for the target- in the target's mind. It would be nice if we could get a boon for each phantasm and clone active when a target dies. Something like, " Gain 1 stack of might for every illusion active when your target dies."
2. You have a point with this one. Having your Duelist disappear because you dodge ain't the greatest.
3. This would be a nice small change.

[Delolith]

Xizidor, on 20 May 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

1. I don't think this is a problem. The phantasm is specifically created for the target- in the target's mind.

If the phantasm is created in a specific enemy's mind how can more people influence its health by attacking it?

[The Prestige]

Delolith, on 20 May 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

If the phantasm is created in a specific enemy's mind how can more people influence its health by attacking it?

Good question.

[Esorono Osuiger]

The Prestige, on 19 May 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Phantasms should stay active as long as the Mesmer is in combat, or if the Phantasm is killed.

May I also suggest that the phantasms look like animals, we change out magic color to green and we use a longbow instead of a greatsword?

• Quote

  Phantasms should never be replaced or overwritten by a Clone.

Nah, sometimes I rather have my staff clones out instead of an Illusionary Berserker. If it's a trait, then I don't care so long as any good traits don't get replaced by it.

• Quote

  Both Phantasms and Clones should display the Mesmer icon when targeted by an enemy player.

I'm almost certain this will be in the game anyways.

[The Prestige]

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

May I also suggest that the phantasms look like animals, we change out magic color to green and we use a longbow instead of a greatsword?

So ranger pets die and needs to be re-summoned whenever the Ranger leaves combat? Crazy...  you learn something new everyday.

Also, I didn't know that Ranger pets have a 6 min and 60 second cooldown before you can resummon them? Thanks for educating me in a very non douchebag way. I knew there were nice people in Guru who played GW1. People, take example from this guy and be a little more friendly. Thanks.

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Nah, sometimes I rather have my staff clones out instead of an Illusionary Berserker. If it's a trait, then I don't care so long as any good traits don't get replaced by it.

I bet you like your staff clones so much that you beam with joy whenever you overwrite your Phantasms with a dodge roll. I mean afterall, it's only a 6 min+ cooldown before you can resummon another one. No sweat.

Edited by The Prestige, 21 May 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[Esorono Osuiger]

The Prestige, on 21 May 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

So ranger pets die and needs to be re-summoned whenever the Ranger leaves combat? Crazy...  you learn something new everyday.

You seemed have hit the nail on the head with my point. Thanks for the great comeback.

Quote

Also, I didn't know that Ranger pets have a 6 min and 60 second cooldown before you can resummon them? Thanks for educating me in a very non douchebag way. I knew there were nice people in Guru who played GW1. People, take example from this guy and be a little more friendly. Thanks.

If it takes you 6 minutes and 60 seconds, which is also known as 7 minutes, then maybe it would be a problem. However, if it took 15 to 30 seconds between two weapons, I'll call you out on them because it means you are incapable of keeping them out for over 10.25 seconds. Some people are sunshine and rainbows while squealing "Let's ask A-Net to completely revamp the mesmer then complain about it when they do!" and others are sick of explaining why most suggestions here are horribly thought out causing them to be grumpy about it. I'm not normally like this and I'm happy to help mesmers, unfortunately if I even attempt to people will either ignore it or complain that my example is the only way, so I don't even bother to help anyone here anymore. Also, don't even try to take the high road here, you're quite sarcastic yourself.

Quote

I bet you like your staff clones so much that you beam with joy whenever you overwrite your Phantasms with a dodge roll. I mean afterall, it's only a 6 min+ cooldown before you can resummon another one. No sweat.

Pfft, I don't care, it's only a 10.25 second cooldown between weapons, I have no idea where you got 6 minutes because there isn't any skill in the game with that long of a cooldown. So if I roll dodge and my phantasm goes away, I either don't care or just summon another. I don't try to lug them around as if they were a ranger's pet and that's probably why I win most fights. In some cases I will override a phantasm on purpose to have two staff clones and an Illusionary Warlock. As a result I'm sure as hell ain't afraid to shatter a phantasm if it means winning, I'll shatter three in someone's face if I had to. The only problem I have is with people thinking that their way is the only way to play, the more A-Net limits how mesmer's clones and phantasms work with shatters and overrides, the less play styles there are to use. If someone wants to look at their phantasms like they were pets and clones as if they are shatter fodder, I don't care, it doesn't affect me. I'm going to be looking at my clones as a status effect, my phantasms as a prolonged attack, and both as shatter fodder as needed, and I will not let everyone's inflexibility to get in my way.

[The Prestige]

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

-snip-

Okay, I wont exaggerate to hit my points home and I'm glad you picked up on the 6min and 60second thing. But since you're unaware... Phantasmal Defender has a 1 min cooldown (in pvp that's forever)... Phantasmal Disenchanter is also a 1 min cooldown. Illusionary Mage is 30 seconds (again pretty long in PvP).

If you don't think 1 min is a long time in PvP then I don't think you PvP much. Changing the priority and duration of Phantasms vs Clones isn't "a complete revamp"... and as a programmer myself I can't imagine how it would be difficult to implement.

Edited by The Prestige, 21 May 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Nicator]

The Prestige, on 19 May 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

• Both Phantasms and Clones should display the Mesmer icon when targeted by an enemy player.

What are your thoughts?

This is the only thing that concerns me, and I certainly won't play mesmer unless it is fixed.

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Pfft, I don't care, it's only a 10.25 second cooldown between weapons, I have no idea where you got 6 minutes because there isn't any skill in the game with that long of a cooldown. So if I roll dodge and my phantasm goes away, I either don't care or just summon another. I don't try to lug them around as if they were a ranger's pet and that's probably why I win most fights. In some cases I will override a phantasm on purpose to have two staff clones and an Illusionary Warlock. As a result I'm sure as hell ain't afraid to shatter a phantasm if it means winning, I'll shatter three in someone's face if I had to. The only problem I have is with people thinking that their way is the only way to play, the more A-Net limits how mesmer's clones and phantasms work with shatters and overrides, the less play styles there are to use. If someone wants to look at their phantasms like they were pets and clones as if they are shatter fodder, I don't care, it doesn't affect me. I'm going to be looking at my clones as a status effect, my phantasms as a prolonged attack, and both as shatter fodder as needed, and I will not let everyone's inflexibility to get in my way.

Honestly, given that there are abilities to use phantasms as meat shields and traits to increase their health, it really may be annoying for people who choose such playstyles to have phantasms disappear so easily. Surely it doesn't affect your style, nor does it affect mine, but that doesn't mean that the way we want to play mesmer should be shoved down everyone's throats. I'm all for a versatile class with many means of being played.

[Esorono Osuiger]

The Prestige, on 21 May 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Okay, I wont exaggerate to hit my points home and I'm glad you picked up on the 6min and 60second thing. But since you're unaware... Phantasmal Defender has a 1 min cooldown (in pvp that's forever)... Phantasmal Disenchanter is also a 1 min cooldown. Illusionary Mage is 30 seconds (again pretty long in PvP).

If you don't think 1 min is a long time in PvP then I don't think you PvP much.

If I was summoning a phantasm only once a minute it would be a long time, it doesn't work like that though. If you have more phantasms in a build, you can summon them even faster than if you have two. On average with 4 phantasms you can summon a phantasm every 7.59375 seconds compared to 10.25 with just two. Also you shouldn't just spam defender every cooldown, that's a waste of its ability.

[The Prestige]

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

-snip-

You're missing the point. I don't "spam" defender every cooldown. But when I want it and then I lose it because of a dodge roll or my sceptre auto attack it sucks... it's still on a long cooldown. And the whole thing about 4 phantasms in a build is a very wonky way of reasoning. Each Phantasm does something different... so if I lose my Phantasmal Defender... I'm not gonna say YAY at least I have my Illusionary Mage! It doesn't work like that.

Edited by The Prestige, 21 May 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[Esorono Osuiger]

The Prestige, on 21 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

You're missing the point. I don't "spam" defender every cooldown. But when I want it and then I lose it because of a dodge roll or my sceptre auto attack it sucks... it's still on a long cooldown. And the whole thing about 4 phantasms in a build is a very wonky way of reasoning. Each Phantasm does something different... so if I lose my Phantasmal Defender... I'm not good say YAY at least I have my Illusionary Mage! It doesn't work like that.

I get the point, if you have defender out, it's rarely going to survive being overwritten in the first place unless you are actively trying to do so. The rest other than disenchanter and warden are offensive. If you have to roll dodge out of the way with warden on the field then it done with its job. Disenchanter will require some thought to keep on the field if you are dodge happy and can't think of any other way to protect yourself other than to spam dodge on every cooldown. If you're using a scepter and want to keep a phantasm on the field I would suggest swapping weapons and use that one until you are done with the phantasm. There is very few reasons to even use the scepter anyways besides being a second main hand, it only has one good skill and it doesn't summon a clone, after that, phantasm and the other offhand skill you might as well swap back to whatever you had in your other weapon set.

[The Prestige]

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I get the point, if you have defender out, it's rarely going to survive being overwritten in the first place unless you are actively trying to do so.

Obviously this isn't the case since myself along with others have voiced concerns about it.

[Nail Bunny]

Don't trait the dodge roll... problem solved lol. Now you can plan when you want/don't want clones.

[Esorono Osuiger]

Karbunkle, on 21 May 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Don't trait the dodge roll... problem solved lol. Now you can plan when you want/don't want clones.

They can't do that because apparently dueling traitline is mandatory.

The Prestige, on 21 May 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Obviously this isn't the case since myself along with others have voiced concerns about it.

Then it isn't soaking up damage from someone specced for attack. Defender is also targeted quite often, on average it lasts about 10 to 15 seconds.

[The Prestige]

Karbunkle, on 21 May 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Don't trait the dodge roll... problem solved lol. Now you can plan when you want/don't want clones.

Dodge roll isn't the only problem, Sceptre attacks are also a culprit.

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

on average it lasts about 10 to 15 seconds.

I was wondering when someone was going to start pulling statistics out of thin air. Thanks for not disappointing.

Edited by The Prestige, 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Esorono Osuiger]

The Prestige, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Dodge roll isn't the only problem, Sceptre attacks are also a culprit.

Swapping out of scepter to a different weapon will save the phantasms.

Quote

I was wondering when someone was going to start pulling statistics out of thin air. Thanks for not disappointing.

I don't pull them out of thin air, I'm quite careful with statistics unlike some people. It isn't rocket science, it isn't even hard to use with basic understanding of math. However, I didn't use a stop watch to see how long phantasms live which prevents me from having an exact number. Though if you must have a more precise number, 12.5 seconds with a +/- tolerance of 2.5 seconds. My point still stands however, the phantasm will die faster than your clones spawn so long as you're not actively trying to create them.

[Sonzai_Moto]

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I get the point, if you have defender out, it's rarely going to survive being overwritten in the first place unless you are actively trying to do so. The rest other than disenchanter and warden are offensive. If you have to roll dodge out of the way with warden on the field then it done with its job. Disenchanter will require some thought to keep on the field if you are dodge happy and can't think of any other way to protect yourself other than to spam dodge on every cooldown. If you're using a scepter and want to keep a phantasm on the field I would suggest swapping weapons and use that one until you are done with the phantasm. There is very few reasons to even use the scepter anyways besides being a second main hand, it only has one good skill and it doesn't summon a clone, after that, phantasm and the other offhand skill you might as well swap back to whatever you had in your other weapon set.

This goes right back to the problem that mesmers play against their builds rather than playing with them.

[draxynnic]

Esorono Osuiger, on 21 May 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Nah, sometimes I rather have my staff clones out instead of an Illusionary Berserker. If it's a trait, then I don't care so long as any good traits don't get replaced by it.

With the lower recharge on clones and the ability to mass-produce them via utilities or the Duelling major trait, you can get rid of the berserker by shattering it if you really want to (I don't think iBerserker is as bad as people say, especially since it seems to be one of the phantasms that can affect an area) and get all the clones you want pretty quickly.

(Mind you, one other possibility could be to replace the confusion shatter with a priority toggle - giving the player the option to prioritise keeping clones, prioritise keeping phantasms, or treating them all equally.)

[Esorono Osuiger]

Sonzai_Moto, on 22 May 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

This goes right back to the problem that mesmers play against their builds rather than playing with them.

It's very easy to avoid if you pay minimal attention to what is happening around you. After an hour of PvP, I could keep whatever I felt like having out for extended periods of time so long as my opponent felt brilliant that he/she knew I was the real mesmer. This was with the clone on dodge trait as well.

draxynnic, on 22 May 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

With the lower recharge on clones and the ability to mass-produce them via utilities or the Duelling major trait, you can get rid of the berserker by shattering it if you really want to (I don't think iBerserker is as bad as people say, especially since it seems to be one of the phantasms that can affect an area) and get all the clones you want pretty quickly.

(Mind you, one other possibility could be to replace the confusion shatter with a priority toggle - giving the player the option to prioritise keeping clones, prioritise keeping phantasms, or treating them all equally.)

It really depends on the situation, berserker isn't bad it just isn't best in every situation such as if I'm going into melee. Then there are a few more variables such as timing and my illusions that are already out. I don't want to use mind wrack until I'm going in for a killing blow. I prefer using diversion and distortion for when recharging a mantra, stopping chain attacks, if I need a few more seconds, or refreshing three illusions. Cry of frustration isn't worth killing two or more illusions in any situation, and the developers know this. So if none of the above situations happen I'll just over write the berserker.

I wouldn't mind too much if CoF was replaced with this suggestion since I rarely use it anyways. I still rather they fix CoF and make the suggestion a trait as people are either "Yes, I want to shatter everything" and "No, I want to keep my phantasm". Why people want to shatter with 33% less power per phantasm is beyond me and it sounds more self limiting than keeping the phantasm, if it helps them sleep at night and doesn't affect me then I don't care.

[Sonzai_Moto]

Esorono Osuiger, on 22 May 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

It's very easy to avoid if you pay minimal attention to what is happening around you. After an hour of PvP, I could keep whatever I felt like having out for extended periods of time so long as my opponent felt brilliant that he/she knew I was the real mesmer. This was with the clone on dodge trait as well.

I'm glad that the experience seems universal. Hopefully, Anet will address the problem. Mesmers shouldn't have to make such constraints to use a component of their class that is on every skill bar.

[Esorono Osuiger]

Sonzai_Moto, on 22 May 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

I'm glad that the experience seems universal. Hopefully, Anet will address the problem. Mesmers shouldn't have to make such constraints to use a component of their class that is on every skill bar.

It should be universal soon, most people who don't have this problem don't complain about it. Once you get used to weaving the illusions and plan ahead of time it becomes second nature. If my opponent only tries to attack me, it's common for me to have two of the same phantasms out, sometimes it wasn't even planned. The people I imagine are having this problem took the clone on roll trait and are rolling around like a ball off every cooldown, spamming the clone generation skill every time it's available, and refusing to swap weapons for whatever reason.

[Sonzai_Moto]

I played the mesmer for the entire BWE and stress test and found this to be a problem. Several people have posted here about the same issue. Perhaps you are just a better player than us, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. I find it strange that you are arguing that it is not a problem just because of your own experience while others have experienced a problem. Do you believe that because you don't have trouble with it, the problem doesn't exist?