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Engineers and RNG

rng luck randomness

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#1 Liberis

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 04:36 PM

Now that most of us have had the chance to play GW2, what do you think about the randomness found in many of the Engineer's skills? I didn't play much pve, so I'm mostly referring to the effect of RNG in pvp.

Personally, I hated it. Particularly with the Elixir tool belt skills, I found myself often hoping for one effect in a particular situation, but I would get the other. On the other hand, I almost always brought Elixir B, specifically because I knew what I would get when I used it. For the same reasons, I never used Elixir X. Supply crate seemed infinitely more useful to me.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Liberis, 19 May 2012 - 04:41 PM.


#2 DrunkenMadKing

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 08:38 PM

Elixir X is a waste of an Elite skill in my opinion.  Random is not what you want when you use an elite.  Until they fix that elite I can see that left off most engineers bars.

#3 Leeto

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 08:41 PM

Yup, RNG in PVP is almost same as nothing at all.

#4 Hessarian

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:23 PM

Random is good if its not really random...

Yeah I know that doesn't make much sense lol. I guess what i mean is... random-ish..

I have a healing elixir. If thrown it grants 1 of 3 abilities. They can be random but i need to know that each of the three things applies some form of healing buff. So its not random in that i have no clue if its going to give a healing buff because the other two effects aren't healing. Since they all are healing, the only random thing is which healing buff they get (regeneration? insta-heal? condion remove?)

Randomness is fun and i think it plays well into the lore of the engineer. I know a lot of people don't care about it. But I do. If the class seems to be way out in left field i don't feel in place playing it.

#5 Ktuhlu

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

Elixir randomness is bad and just a horrible, horrible idea in general. It adds a completely unnecessary element of luck to a game that is marketing itself as a skill game. Elixir X is particularly bad -- it has absolutely no place in PVP.

#6 Lewis B

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:36 AM

I really don't believe a profession can truly be competative if such emphasis is placed on randomness.  It has caused my death far, far too many times.  I tend to avoid Elixir X like the plague (no pun intended) which is a real shame.

#7 Bulldog

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:43 AM

Randomness in competative pvp has no place.  Pro gamers will never use skills with random affects my hope is that this gets changed either before release or soon after because people are complaining enough to Anet about it.

#8 Brawson

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:47 AM

Yea i have terrible luck when it comes to getting a benefit from something random so i will probably only use elixir h. It's a cool idea but it isn't something I would ever bet on in a pvp situation, I'll stick with turrets and explosives.

#9 Scarlet_Blossom

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:58 AM

I don't think that randomness in games in general is a bad thing since there were many games where it was quite fine (shooting up hills in war3, scbw, dota or x% chances to block/evade attacks in games, critical hits) but ANet deliberately tried to remove most of these random effects which they did quite well in my opinion.
Considering that I do not see any reason why they would add skills which add random boons to a class and think it should be removed.

#10 CaericElRoi

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 02:07 PM

I feel like the Engineer was the final concept and they'd kinda peter'd out of ideas...

We are the only class that has random effects like this (well, random benefits, I should say) and some of our skills are just OTHER skills rehashed.

Elixir U > Random Utility from another profession
Elxir X > 1 of 3 transformations that other Professions do
Elixir C > Convert Conditions to Random Boons (Guardian)

I love the Engineer class... but aside from the Elixir Gun (which is fun, but underpowered) I have no use at all for Elixirs.

#11 Killer

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:22 PM

Hate the RNG :(

#12 coglin

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostCaericElRoi, on 21 May 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I feel like the Engineer was the final concept and they'd kinda peter'd out of ideas...

We are the only class that has random effects like this (well, random benefits, I should say) and some of our skills are just OTHER skills rehashed.

Elixir U > Random Utility from another profession
Elxir X > 1 of 3 transformations that other Professions do
Elixir C > Convert Conditions to Random Boons (Guardian)

I love the Engineer class... but aside from the Elixir Gun (which is fun, but underpowered) I have no use at all for Elixirs.
Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.
We are not the only one with random boons. We are not the only class with random boons in utilities.


Posted Image
Signet of Inspiration

Gain a random boon every ten seconds

Chaos Armor - Give yourself chaos armor, applying a random boon to you and a random condition to your foe whenever you are struck.

That being said, I personally have no use for elixirs myself. Not that I dislike them in anyway, they simply donot fit my playstyle.

Edited by coglin, 21 May 2012 - 10:41 PM.


#13 Ktuhlu

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 11:52 PM

View Postcoglin, on 21 May 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.
We are not the only one with random boons. We are not the only class with random boons in utilities.


Posted Image
Signet of Inspiration

Gain a random boon every ten seconds

Chaos Armor - Give yourself chaos armor, applying a random boon to you and a random condition to your foe whenever you are struck.

That being said, I personally have no use for elixirs myself. Not that I dislike them in anyway, they simply donot fit my playstyle.

It doesn't matter if other classes have the same shitty mechanic. It's the design itself -- of building on a skill with random elements, hence adding luck to a game that really doesn't need it -- that is the problem. It's not a problem exclusive to the engineer; it just so happens that it is the most prevalent in the engineer class.

#14 Deuzerre

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:08 AM

IF each random skill had a 100% chance effect + a random one, it could be alright.

Elixir H is a good example: It heals + either a protect, a regen, or a speed buff. All three fill the same general role of added survivability.

U is totally random, causing it to be absurdly stupid. I mean, a random spell from a random profession: How worse could it be?
C has one use in removing the conditions, so the random bonuses don't really matter. it's a good one.
X is totally random with different uses depending on the situation (and can't be thrown).

Basically, of all the random elixirs, two have certain expected result + random stuff, one is broken to oblivion, and an ultimate that is only suited for PvE, but otherwise completely broken.

Fixes would be, say, B as I wrote above (Swiftness + one random aggressive bonus), X could have a "cycle" (so basically: Pop the elixir, click again to select the spell you want as its icon appears), and U... Should disappear.

Edited by Deuzerre, 22 May 2012 - 01:03 AM.


#15 fizz

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:17 AM

View PostDeuzerre, on 22 May 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

-snip-
I thought elixir B was one of the examples that has a consistent effect, being that it always applies might, fury and swiftness.

But otherwise, I agree that elixirs should have a guaranteed effect along with some additional random component. As you said, elixir H is a good example, always healing you and providing a random boon on the side to help you survive.

Maybe elixir U could be improved if it also provided the quickness effect that frenzy, quickening zephyr and haste usually would. So it could be a guaranteed source of quickness with the random bonus from each respective skill.

Elixir X may be better if the possible elite forms were more similar to eachother, since tornado, plague and rampage are suitable for very different situations.

#16 Deuzerre

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:01 AM

View Postfizz, on 22 May 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

Snip

My bad, I remembered it wrong :eek:

#17 Protoavis

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:52 AM

Personally I'm fond of it. I was constantly using elixir u just because of the fun factor of it. The other profession I played the most was mesmer and it's filled with RNG too. Honestly don't have issue with it.

#18 Rhodin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:44 AM

Drinking B was fine, throwing B causes one of 3 random which is a bit shit, same with S.

Im with the idea of randomness but it needs to give at least one guarantee as well, for example throwing S could always guarantee invisibility but would randomly give a couple seconds of swiftness or regen.

#19 coglin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:36 PM

View PostKtuhlu, on 21 May 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

It doesn't matter if other classes have the same shitty mechanic. It's the design itself -- of building on a skill with random elements, hence adding luck to a game that really doesn't need it -- that is the problem. It's not a problem exclusive to the engineer; it just so happens that it is the most prevalent in the engineer class.
Yes, it does matter. It matters because he claimed no other class had abilities that had random boons. It matters, because if your going to make an arguement, you should actually know the facts if your going to make claims of that nature.

That being said, I agree that the random effects is a bad idea. On the plus side, its beta, and with the public outcry they seem to be getting, there is a good chance they may rectify the situation.

#20 CaericElRoi

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:00 PM

View Postcoglin, on 21 May 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.
We are not the only one with random boons. We are not the only class with random boons in utilities.


Posted Image
Signet of Inspiration

Gain a random boon every ten seconds

Chaos Armor - Give yourself chaos armor, applying a random boon to you and a random condition to your foe whenever you are struck.

That being said, I personally have no use for elixirs myself. Not that I dislike them in anyway, they simply donot fit my playstyle.

These are passive benefits, or "defensive" boons.  You are not casting that skill and expecting a certain positive effect... Only the Engineer has a random benefit on cast.

#21 coglin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:03 PM

View PostCaericElRoi, on 22 May 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

These are passive benefits, or "defensive" boons.  You are not casting that skill and expecting a certain positive effect... Only the Engineer has a random benefit on cast.
Your wrong. You cast chaos armor to recieve the random boon.

Edited by coglin, 22 May 2012 - 01:19 PM.


#22 CaericElRoi

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

View Postcoglin, on 22 May 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Your wrong. You cast chaos armor to recieve the random boon.

Yes, but you're casting for a random boon.  It's not a 1 of 3 slot spin like Elixir skills.  With Elixirs you know what your options are, you're just not guaranteed any one of them.  Chaos armor you get something, it doesn't matter what, it's a boon.  It's not like you're casting chaos armor and going "Damn, I really needed Regen and I got Retaliation", it's more like "Oh, cool, retaliation... free buff!"

Now try casting Elixir H where you are expecting either Vigor, Regen or Prot and you're going "c'mon prot!" and you get vigor.  Let down.  Because A) You know you're getting 1 of only 3 boons and ( B) You're not getting the boon you need.  Like Lewis B said, He died many times because he was looking for Elixir S to give him Stealth when he threw it, but instead, he got smoke screen.  There is no benefit to randomness, especially in PVP.

Oh, and you cast Chaos Armor for the Armor buff and conditioning your enemy.  The Random Boon is just a perk.

Edited by CaericElRoi, 22 May 2012 - 02:19 PM.


#23 Cl1p

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:06 PM

Normally, I wouldn't really care about the RGB (random generated boons) but they all differ in duration so much!! Thrown elixir S is so incredibly useless because of the short duration.

Actually, I just have a problem with most of the thrown elixirs... (except for R and U). The normal utility elixirs all have a use and the RGB is just a perk. (btw I only use H when I have the trait condition removal, I only use U for the quickness)

#24 coglin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:04 PM

View PostCaericElRoi, on 22 May 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Oh, and you cast Chaos Armor for the Armor buff and conditioning your enemy.  The Random Boon is just a perk.
You made an incorrect statement earlier. I corrected it. Stop trying to justify it. All you had to do, is conceede the error, and say "oops, I forgot about about those abilities". I don't care how it compares to elixirs. I don't care if you feel engineer has it worse the mesmer on this issue. I care that you made a false statement. Either out of error, or intentional is irrelavent. You said it. Now you keep argueing against that fact. Why? I don't know.

Like it or not there is another class that has 2 abilities that give random boons. You claimed there was none. Here let me show you.

View PostCaericElRoi, on 21 May 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

We are the only class that has random effects like this (well, random benefits, I should say) and some of our skills are just OTHER skills rehashed.
I simply corrected the misinformation. based on the facts.

#25 Tenicord

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:10 PM

I love the Engineer it will be my main.

That said, I think random can be fun in PvE.. my problem is, there really isn't anything fun about the random-ness.. now if you were to throw an unstable elixir that would randomly burn, posion, or immobolize for example.. that would be fun.. but when it's just random swift, ect, not so much.

I agree that it doesn't really have a place in PvP but player can make plenty of builds without using those skills.. so I LIKE random and I think it has it's place in this game.. but I wish they would make the randomness more fun.

#26 Liberis

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:16 PM

Jon Peters on Engineer randomness:

Quote

Lewis B: There were several moments with the engineer where the random component of Elixirs gave me what I didn’t want (and caused my death), which happened much more than I would have liked. Elixir B and S having guaranteed effects are wonderful skills. Is it too late to replicate this and remove all random elements from Elixirs? In its current form, I worry for the competitiveness of the profession…

Jon: I guess people read somewhere on the Internet that random effects cannot be in competitive games. Like everything on the Internet, that is at most a half truth. The truth is that random effects are what create moments of opportunity for players to react to. There is a threshold of randomness that is not acceptable, but if you are given outcomes that have clear, non-game breaking implications, those are the moments that expert players should be using to press advantages. Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity, which is hard for new players to understand, and creates false choices.

Source: http://www.guildwars...view-jon-peters
Still don't like it, but meh. =\

Edited by Liberis, 03 July 2012 - 09:17 PM.


#27 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:22 PM

"Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity"

So, the rest of the game, apart from elixirs, is just masked complexity.

Nice one Jon.

#28 The Eggman

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:56 PM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 03 July 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

"Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity"

So, the rest of the game, apart from elixirs, is just masked complexity.

Nice one Jon.

Mesmers have the issue as well, not just engineer.

#29 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:59 PM

View PostThe Eggman, on 03 July 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Mesmers have the issue as well, not just engineer.

True, but the staff was redesigned well to avoid that issue.

Before it was simply any random condition and that was it.

Now they have narrowed the choices down so they are consistent. It is by no means, the level of randomness that the engineer suffers from.

#30 Genesis

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:02 PM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 03 July 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

"Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity"

So, the rest of the game, apart from elixirs, is just masked complexity.

Nice one Jon.
I can understand if you are not a fan of the randomness of elixirs - I'm not a fan of them either - but I do not see how this hostile tone you seem to be carrying is productive.





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