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Engineers and RNG

rng luck randomness

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#31 Seafog

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:16 PM

What people dont get is that if Gw2 is to be an e-sport game.
RNG has to be removed.
Theres acceptable rng like crits.
And then theres rng that is "Oh i got the wrong buff/debuff... well im dead" situations.
Competetive e-sport =/= RNG.
Its unreliable, broken and just dont belong there.
And since gw2 is an e-sport game.
RNG has to to be removed.

RNG in e-sport is like rolling a d20 every time you want to hit a foe except you get random results depending on what side the 20 sided die lands on.

Edited by Seafog, 03 July 2012 - 11:17 PM.


#32 Saleem

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:24 PM

Well if they restrict it to something like the mesmer Staff RNG I could see it working as in ... different effects serving similar purposes.
If it's completely random it could be problematic... unless every skill is so random it cancels out cause you end up with everything in the end XD ...

Edited by Saleem, 03 July 2012 - 11:30 PM.


#33 Seafog

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:35 PM

Ok let me give a better idea of what rng is:
RNG is like roulette.
(wiki it if you dont know what roulette is)

Elixer B/S/U/H Thrown is like playing roulette.
Same with mesmer skills and effects and such.

Crits is like playing roulette but one can paint certain fields in the color one wants to win.
So instead of having a X% static chance of getting an effect, attacks can be influenced through stats/skills/boons/sigils to grant an improved chance to get the effect one wants (in this case a critical hit).
And by extension, sigil effects and trait effects based on crits is also acceptable rng by this logic.

Which bring me back to me d20 example.
In D&D if one rolls 19-20 on  d20 die 2 times in a row, one crits.
Certain things one can pick increases that chance to (in an extreme case) 16-20.
Chaos armour and other such effects is like having a random effect on each side the die landed on, and it isnt possible to influence how the die lands.

Edited by Seafog, 03 July 2012 - 11:52 PM.


#34 eviator

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostSeafog, on 03 July 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

What people dont get is that if Gw2 is to be an e-sport game.
RNG has to be removed.
Theres acceptable rng like crits.
And then theres rng that is "Oh i got the wrong buff/debuff... well im dead" situations.
Competetive e-sport =/= RNG.
Its unreliable, broken and just dont belong there.
And since gw2 is an e-sport game.
RNG has to to be removed.

RNG in e-sport is like rolling a d20 every time you want to hit a foe except you get random results depending on what side the 20 sided die lands on.

Seafog says that with RNG, you can't have an e-sport. Well they're not getting rid of the RNG, so I guess that's it for GW2 as an e-sport. Guess we better start looking elsewhere.

#35 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:51 PM

View Posteviator, on 03 July 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Seafog says that with RNG, you can't have an e-sport. Well they're not getting rid of the RNG, so I guess that's it for GW2 as an e-sport. Guess we better start looking elsewhere.

Nah, just with the engineer.

#36 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:00 AM

View Posteviator, on 03 July 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Seafog says that with RNG, you can't have an e-sport. Well they're not getting rid of the RNG, so I guess that's it for GW2 as an e-sport. Guess we better start looking elsewhere.

Just Elixier engineers, staff mesmers and Thiefs using steal.

RNG that can be influenced by player choices and can be a option as to how much one wants to rely on it by player choices is acceptable rng like my examples showed.

RNG that is pure random without any possibility for the player to influence it is something that is shunned by e-sport players.

Edited by Seafog, 04 July 2012 - 12:03 AM.


#37 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:01 AM

They are CLEARLY not changing it, so why bother complaining? I know it's difficult for people to not complain but it serves no purpose because Jon thinks they belong and seems to have no intention of changing it. Perhaps you hope to garner sympathy from the masses. Just write off those elixirs as not viable in e-sports and move on.

Edited by eviator, 04 July 2012 - 12:05 AM.


#38 Runkleford

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:04 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 03 July 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

Nah, just with the engineer.

Sorry that's a bit of an exaggeration. Only a very small portion of Engineer skills is RNG. And I don't think the RNG in GW2 is going to "ruin" competitive e-sport at all even though I don't like RNG. Heck, I think the possibility of sniping kills on the two monsters in Niflhelm is more random and more detrimental to the e-sport scene.

Edited by Runkleford, 04 July 2012 - 12:04 AM.


#39 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:06 AM

I'll never understand why people refuse to actually master something interesting and show true skillfull play by adapting to the random effects and rather have this 'fake' sense of being the best simply by following a boring , static and preset plan. People amaze me lol. Keep RNG and you'll see who si actually good at this game. Maybe some people can't handle having to think about more than a simple 123 plan

#40 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:08 AM

I can say as a person who will NEVER be skilled enough to be competitive, I'm going to play for fun. I think the random effects will be fun, especially in sPvP.

#41 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:16 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

I'll never understand why people refuse to actually master something interesting and show true skillfull play by adapting to the random effects and rather have this 'fake' sense of being the best simply by following a boring , static and preset plan. People amaze me lol. Keep RNG and you'll see who si actually good at this game. Maybe some people can't handle having to think about more than a simple 123 plan

Yeah... because elixir X is so underused, and so often criticized, not because of its RNG elements. But because we all suck.

#42 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:19 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

Yeah... because elixir X is so underused, and so often criticized, not because of its RNG elements. But because we all suck.

I never said all skills , as they are now, are perfect. I'm saying that RNG isn't the issue that Elixer X is having.

Edited by dss_live, 04 July 2012 - 12:19 AM.


#43 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:19 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

I'll never understand why people refuse to actually master something interesting and show true skillfull play by adapting to the random effects and rather have this 'fake' sense of being the best simply by following a boring , static and preset plan. People amaze me lol. Keep RNG and you'll see who si actually good at this game. Maybe some people can't handle having to think about more than a simple 123 plan

There are definitely two sides to it, and I think more people should be a little more open minded.

On one hand, you have the inability to predict what will happen when you use certain skills. This is detrimental to the e-sport scene because highly skilled matches require players to make instantaneous decisions. If you choose to use a skill that gives swiftness, it sure as heck better give swiftness and not some other random boon.

On the other hand, this significantly raises the skill ceiling. This can be potentially very beneficial to the e-sport scene because of the requirement to make snap decisions based on certain random skill outcomes. If you use an elixir that gives some kind of random defensive boon, you have to react to it. Maybe you wanted swiftness, if you got it then great! You can have your swiftness. Maybe you got vigor instead, now you have to adapt to that and throw in some extra dodge rolls instead.

I think both sides have valid points, but there is definitely something to be said for random effects. It's not automatically bad for e-sports no matter what. Have an open mind, don't make such blanket statements about something always being bad no matter what. There's a good chance that this ends up really allowing some players to show a great deal of skill when reacting to random effects.

The random effects definitely should be similar. You should not get fury from a defensive elixir. You should not get drastically different results from using elixir X. With that said, if they can normalize these a little bit and make the outcomes all fulfill a similar role, then I think there is a great potential for random effects and outcomes.

#44 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:20 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

I'll never understand why people refuse to actually master something interesting and show true skillfull play by adapting to the random effects and rather have this 'fake' sense of being the best simply by following a boring , static and preset plan. People amaze me lol. Keep RNG and you'll see who si actually good at this game. Maybe some people can't handle having to think about more than a simple 123 plan

Firstly: sPvP and tPvP is far from static.

Secondly: RNG without the option to influence through gear/skills/boons/traits and such is like winning through pure luck.
If you enjoy gambling so much, play D3.
Its the very concept of gambling made into a game.

#45 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:20 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I never said all skills , as they are now, are perfect. I'm saying that RNG isn't the issue that Elixer X is having.

Completely agree, just as the point I was making above. Random has very good potential if it gives similar outcomes. Wildly random outcomes that are on opposite ends of the spectrum are not good, and it did sound like Jon agreed with this.

#46 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:21 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

I never said all skills , as they are now, are perfect. I'm saying that RNG isn't the issue that Elixer X is having.

So what is the issue with elixir X?

Because, as it stands, it RANDOMLY, pics a RANDOM playstyle, out of a list of possible playstyles.

So, how do you solve this? Well, you make it cater to one playstyle only. And you can only do that, by removing the random elements.

#47 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:22 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Firstly: sPvP and tPvP is far from static.

Secondly: RNG without the option to influence through gear/skills/boons/traits and such is like winning through pure luck.
If you enjoy gambling so much, play D3.
Its the very concept of gambling made into a game.

I think this is a fallacy because it assumes getting one outcome is a win and all others are a fail. This is severe over simplification to say the least. I think getting one outcome may be more desirable at a given moment, but that doesn't make it an "I win button" and it surely doesn't make other similar outcomes automatic losses.

Edited by Adamantium, 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM.


#48 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:23 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

Firstly: sPvP and tPvP is far from static.

Secondly: RNG without the option to influence through gear/skills/boons/traits and such is like winning through pure luck.
If you enjoy gambling so much, play D3.
Its the very concept of gambling made into a game.

Let's say you succeeded in convincing everyone who reads your post thst RNG is bad for e-sports. Now what? What do you want us to do about it? ArenaNet is not changing it! I'm sure there's lot of other soap boxes around to stand on.

#49 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

So what is the issue with elixir X?

Because, as it stands, it RANDOMLY, pics a RANDOM playstyle, out of a list of possible playstyles.

So, how do you solve this? Well, you make it cater to one playstyle only. And you can only do that, by removing the random elements.

Not necessarily.  I'm sure it's very much possible to adjust what the collective is of the random effects given by that elixer. You can easily find 3 options that fit within a certain playstyle. As of now, elixer X gives you 3 options, perfectly viable to plan these 3 ahead if you so wish to. RNG isn't the issue, it's what the random choices are that is.

#50 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM

Spoiler

Your mistaking pure luck with skill.
pure luck is pure luck.
Theres nothing good about it for sPvP and tPvP.

Skill on the other hand is knowing what effect is given when a certain button is pushed.
If i push "i need protection buff...now" button i dont want swiftness or regen and ill most likely end up dead if i get swiftness or regen.

#51 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:27 AM

View PostAdamantium, on 04 July 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

I think this is a fallacy because it assumes getting one outcome is a win and all others are a fail. I think getting one outcome may be more desirable at a given moment, but that doesn't make it an "I win button" and it surely doesn't make other similar outcomes automatic losses.

But... that is always the case with RNG.

As a conditions engineer, I will always prefer plague.
As an engineer, I will prefer protection, as opposed to regeneration.

With all cases with the engineer, as it stands, there is no case, where you get an equal chance, to get something that would be equally, or similarly useful.

Elixir U could have been an example of this. Smoke screen= blocks projectiles, blinds people, smoke field. Wall of reflection. Reflects projectiles. Light field.

Both of these are very similar. Deal with projectiles, and work as fields. This is good RNG.

But add in veil of invisibility, and what you get is just terrible luck based, win or lose RNG.

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Not necessarily.  I'm sure it's very much possible to adjust what the collective is of the random effects given by that elixer. You can easily find 3 options that fit within a certain playstyle. As of now, elixer X gives you 3 options, perfectly viable to plan these 3 ahead if you so wish to. RNG isn't the issue, it's what the random choices are that is.

No it isn't.

The 3 choices cater to very different needs and traits, and stats.

Plague, caters to the pistol conditions user. Rampage, to the rifle, control user. And Tornado, to the CC guy.

How do I spec for all 3 of these so that I don't ever lose out?

#52 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:28 AM

View Posteviator, on 04 July 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Let's say you succeeded in convincing everyone who reads your post thst RNG is bad for e-sports. Now what? What do you want us to do about it? ArenaNet is not changing it! I'm sure there's lot of other soap boxes around to stand on.

Its called BWE forums.

#53 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:28 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Spoiler

Your mistaking pure luck with skill.
pure luck is pure luck.
Theres nothing good about it for sPvP and tPvP.

Skill on the other hand is knowing what effect is given when a certain button is pushed.
If i push "i need protection buff...now" button i dont want swiftness or regen and ill most likely end up dead if i get swiftness or regen.

So basically, skill is the ability to read? Seems liek every kid posseses that. Skill is being able to react to whatever gets thrown at you and being able to think quickly when you receive a buff or whatever that you received randomly by using a skill. If skill really is just the ability to read and press it when the time comes that i fear that people have the wrong image of skillfull play

#54 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:30 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Its called BWE forums.

Well then good luck. I'll be on the forums advocating for randomness, because that sounds like more fun.

#55 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:31 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Its called BWE forums.

It can be called whatever you wnat. They're not going to change it. They made that very clear in the interview they gave. Sometimes people need to be forced into something to realize the decision wasn't a bad on at all.

#56 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:32 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

So basically, skill is the ability to read? Seems liek every kid posseses that. Skill is being able to react to whatever gets thrown at you and being able to think quickly when you receive a buff or whatever that you received randomly by using a skill. If skill really is just the ability to read and press it when the time comes that i fear that people have the wrong image of skillfull play

Skill, is about timing and reactions.

Skill, is also about adapting.

But you are mistaken if you think that it is skill, to adapt to yourself. It is skill to adapt to your opponent. You should not have to fight yourself. You should not have to pray to the dice gods, in the hope that you get protection, instead of swiftness. It is skill, to see your opponent doing something, and dodging it.

#57 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:34 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

So basically, skill is the ability to read? Seems liek every kid posseses that. Skill is being able to react to whatever gets thrown at you and being able to think quickly when you receive a buff or whatever that you received randomly by using a skill. If skill really is just the ability to read and press it when the time comes that i fear that people have the wrong image of skillfull play

*sigh*
No you are on the wrong side of the fence.
If my own skills ends up working against me.
Why would i ever wanna use them?
If "Give me protection or swiftness or regen" gives me regen or swiftness.
Ill end up taking a dirt nap.

Again ill repeat:
Pure luck is not skill.
Knowing when/how to use skills to avoid dirt naps is skill.

Edited by Seafog, 04 July 2012 - 12:36 AM.


#58 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:34 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Spoiler

Your mistaking pure luck with skill.
pure luck is pure luck.
Theres nothing good about it for sPvP and tPvP.

Skill on the other hand is knowing what effect is given when a certain button is pushed.
If i push "i need protection buff...now" button i dont want swiftness or regen and ill most likely end up dead if i get swiftness or regen.

Are you saying it takes no skill to react to the outcome of a skill? I think it takes a good amount of skill and a good player will be able to react and adjust his next move, where a bad player will not.

#59 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:35 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

But you are mistaken if you think that it is skill, to adapt to yourself. It is skill to adapt to your opponent. You should not have to fight yourself. You should not have to pray to the dice gods, in the hope that you get protection, instead of swiftness. It is skill, to see your opponent doing something, and dodging it.

Well there's your problem. As Jon says random effects are "moments that expert players should be using to press advantages." If you can't do it, then by Jon's definition, you are not an expert player.

Edited by eviator, 04 July 2012 - 12:35 AM.


#60 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:36 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

It can be called whatever you wnat. They're not going to change it. They made that very clear in the interview they gave. Sometimes people need to be forced into something to realize the decision wasn't a bad on at all.

View Posteviator, on 04 July 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Well then good luck. I'll be on the forums advocating for randomness, because that sounds like more fun.

Guys, this isn't arguing. You're just saying "shut up, its this way, Arenanet made it this way, therefore you are wrong".

This is among the lowest form of argument on the internet, and you should really stop it. Stop it right now.

You don't argue for something, because it is the status quo. It changes. Mine kit? Toolbelt? Kits?

All have changed since their 'official iteration', so to use the argument that 'it is this way', therefore 'you are right', is pretty darned stupid.

View Posteviator, on 04 July 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Well there's your problem. As Jon says random effects are "moments that expert players should be using to press advantages." If you can't do it, then by Jon's definition, you are not an expert player.

Because Jon Peters is never wrong and never changes his mind...





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