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Engineers and RNG

rng luck randomness

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#61 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:38 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Guys, this isn't arguing. You're just saying "shut up, its this way, Arenanet made it this way, therefore you are wrong".

This is among the lowest form of argument on the internet, and you should really stop it. Stop it right now.

You don't argue for something, because it is the status quo. It changes. Mine kit? Toolbelt? Kits?

All have changed since their 'official iteration', so to use the argument that 'it is this way', therefore 'you are right', is pretty darned stupid.



Because Jon Peters is never wrong and never changes his mind...

Yes, i'm not arguing at all, all those other posts where what? empty space?

I also never stated outright you were wrong. I said argue that there is another side to this that very well can benefit e-sport but is rather to be ignored because people can't handle change.

Edited by dss_live, 04 July 2012 - 12:39 AM.


#62 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

*sigh*
No you are on the wrong side of the fence.
If my own skills ends up working against me.
Why would i ever wanna use them?
If "Give me protection or swiftness or regen" gives me regen or swiftness. ill end up taking a dirt nap.

Again ill repeat:
Pure luck is not skill.
Knowing when/how to use skills to avoid dirt naps is skill.

I don't know if I've ever been in a situation over the past couple BWEs where at a given moment protection is a win while any other boon is a loss. If the situation is that dire for you, you won't be relying on a random skill will you? If it's really that big of a deal for you to have protection and nothing but protection and this exact moment, then you'll use something like Elixir H to get it.

For the vast majority of situations where this is not as vital as you make it out to be, an outcome of a random boon could be put to good use.

#63 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM

View Postdss_live, on 04 July 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Yes, i'm not arguing at all, all those other posts where what? empty space?

I also never stated outright you were wrong. I said argue that there is another side to this that very well can benefit e-sport but is rather to be ignored because people can't handle change.

But your other posts are insignificant. You can't justify acting like a *, by saying  you were nice once.

And obviously there is another side to it, but if your argument is "its the way it is", then I recommend you get a new argument.

#64 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Guys, this isn't arguing. You're just saying "shut up, its this way, Arenanet made it this way, therefore you are wrong".

This is among the lowest form of argument on the internet, and you should really stop it. Stop it right now.

You don't argue for something, because it is the status quo. It changes. Mine kit? Toolbelt? Kits?

All have changed since their 'official iteration', so to use the argument that 'it is this way', therefore 'you are right', is pretty darned stupid.

"I guess people read somewhere on the Internet that random effects cannot be in competitive games. Like everything on the Internet, that is at most a half truth. The truth is that random effects are what create moments of opportunity for players to react to. There is a threshold of randomness that is not acceptable, but if you are given outcomes that have clear, non-game breaking implications, those are the moments that expert players should be using to press advantages. Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity, which is hard for new players to understand, and creates false choices."

Show me anywhere where a dev said anything like this about the mine kit, turrets, or other kits.

I'm not saying you're wrong and ArenaNet is right, I'm saying you are wasting your time and pulling out your hair for something beyond your control. Don't put words in my mouth and then say it's the "lowest form of argument on the Internet".

People have complained about the randomness of elixirs for a long time, and AN is STILL defending it. And you are still complaining. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result...Einstein called that the definition of "insanity".

Edited by eviator, 04 July 2012 - 12:43 AM.


#65 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM

View PostAdamantium, on 04 July 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

Are you saying it takes no skill to react to the outcome of a skill? I think it takes a good amount of skill and a good player will be able to react and adjust his next move, where a bad player will not.

No, im saying if my skill ends up making my char take a dirt nap because it felt like it was a good idea to give me swiftness instead of protection then its a win based on pure luck for my foe.

Pure luck is not skill.

#66 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:42 AM

View PostAdamantium, on 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't know if I've ever been in a situation over the past couple BWEs where at a given moment protection is a win while any other boon is a loss. If the situation is that dire for you, you won't be relying on a random skill will you? If it's really that big of a deal for you to have protection and nothing but protection and this exact moment, then you'll use something like Elixir H to get it.

For the vast majority of situations where this is not as vital as you make it out to be, an outcome of a random boon could be put to good use.

Have you no clue how good protection is? And how bad the other 2 options are compared to it?

How much is 33% mitigation? How much is 10s of regeneration.

How much is 33% speed, when you are chilled/crippled or immobilized.

How much is becoming a plague, when you are condition specced, compared to rampage?

#67 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:43 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

But your other posts are insignificant. You can't justify acting like a *, by saying  you were nice once.

And obviously there is another side to it, but if your argument is "its the way it is", then I recommend you get a new argument.

My arguement isn't 'It's the way it is'. Learn to see the difference between an arguement and someone stating a fact. RNG has been in there from the very beginning, people have been nagging about it from the very beginning, anything changed? no. Why? They see it as a non issue. IT's not an arguement it's a fact. Learn the difference.

Also, i never claimed to be nice before :P

#68 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:43 AM

View Posteviator, on 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

"I guess people read somewhere on the Internet that random effects cannot be in competitive games. Like everything on the Internet, that is at most a half truth. The truth is that random effects are what create moments of opportunity for players to react to. There is a threshold of randomness that is not acceptable, but if you are given outcomes that have clear, non-game breaking implications, those are the moments that expert players should be using to press advantages. Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity, which is hard for new players to understand, and creates false choices."

Show me anywhere where a dev said anything like this about the mine kit, turrets, or other kits.

I'm not saying you're wrong and ArenaNet is right, I'm saying you are wasting your time and pulling out your hair for something beyond your control. Don't put word in my mouth and then say it's the "lowest form of argument on the Internet".

People have complained about the randomness of elixirs for a long time, and AN is STILL defending it. And you are still complaining. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result...Einstein called that the definition of "insanity".

So, you're now calling anyone who disagrees with arenanet insane.

And you want people to take you seriously, and you also tell them to stop talking, because arenanet are still defending this.

I think you've dug your own grave here.

#69 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:44 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Skill, is about timing and reactions.

Skill, is also about adapting.

But you are mistaken if you think that it is skill, to adapt to yourself. It is skill to adapt to your opponent. You should not have to fight yourself. You should not have to pray to the dice gods, in the hope that you get protection, instead of swiftness. It is skill, to see your opponent doing something, and dodging it.

I completely agree with you; skill is about adapting. Who said it was only adapting to your enemy? That seems very arbitrary to me. Why is skill not adapting to yourself? Don't good players adapt to their skill bar with respect to what's available and what's still on cooldown? Don't they adapt to synergies between their skills and what good skill combos are? Don't good players adapt if they miss with a ground targeted ability? There are plenty of things good players can adapt to that have nothing to do with their enemies.

I think it's very narrow minded to say "skill is adapting only to what the enemy does, not anything that you do". It's almost like you're saying something as a general truth just to prove your point.

#70 el hefe

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:45 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

Spoiler

Your mistaking pure luck with skill.
pure luck is pure luck.
Theres nothing good about it for sPvP and tPvP.

Skill on the other hand is knowing what effect is given when a certain button is pushed.
If i push "i need protection buff...now" button i dont want swiftness or regen and ill most likely end up dead if i get swiftness or regen.

if you dont like the randomness then dont use that skill.

#71 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:45 AM

The level of arguments here is so low that even twilight would be proud of it. :(

#72 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:46 AM

View PostAdamantium, on 04 July 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

I completely agree with you; skill is about adapting. Who said it was only adapting to your enemy? That seems very arbitrary to me. Why is skill not adapting to yourself? Don't good players adapt to their skill bar with respect to what's available and what's still on cooldown? Don't they adapt to synergies between their skills and what good skill combos are? Don't good players adapt if they miss with a ground targeted ability? There are plenty of things good players can adapt to that have nothing to do with their enemies.

I think it's very narrow minded to say "skill is adapting only to what the enemy does, not anything that you do". It's almost like you're saying something as a general truth just to prove your point.

Because no amount of adapting, will change it from pure luck.

If I get swiftness, and not protection. No amount of adapting, will ever match, the luck element, of getting protection.

No amount of adapting, will make rampage, as useful as plague as a conditions specced engineer.

#73 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:47 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

So, you're now calling anyone who disagrees with arenanet insane.

And you want people to take you seriously, and you also tell them to stop talking, because arenanet are still defending this.

I think you've dug your own grave here.

Again putting words in my mouth. No wonder your mind is so closed.

I'll see you on the BWE forums touting how fun I find the the random effects of elixirs. Time will tell what AN chooses to do. I don't lose if you get your way.

Edited by eviator, 04 July 2012 - 12:49 AM.


#74 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:48 AM

View Postel hefe, on 04 July 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

if you dont like the randomness then dont use that skill.

Except its forcefully put on all elixirs kinda and staff mesmer and thief steal.
If i want to go crit build, i can influence that and choose that.
If i pick a staff mesmer i get luck based gameplay, same with elixirs and steal.

#75 el hefe

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:48 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

No, im saying if my skill ends up making my char take a dirt nap because it felt like it was a good idea to give me swiftness instead of protection then its a win based on pure luck for my foe.

Pure luck is not skill.

no,  it would be your lack of skill. you didnt use the boon you got correctly.  if i got switness and i was in trouble i'd get the heck out of there.  if i got protectoin maybe i could stay and fight.

#76 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Have you no clue how good protection is? And how bad the other 2 options are compared to it?

How much is 33% mitigation? How much is 10s of regeneration.

How much is 33% speed, when you are chilled/crippled or immobilized.

How much is becoming a plague, when you are condition specced, compared to rampage?

I don't think we agree as much as you think we do. I'm completely with you on Elixir X. The random effects are far too varied to be useful. Protection may have also been a bad example since it is quite powerful, but I was going off what Seafog said he wanted so badly.

I do think that a crucial moment (maybe not the fabricated must-have-this-boon-now-or-I-die moment) a good player can make use of a wide variety of boons. When trying to finish off a player just before they revive a teammate, might/fury/quickness will all help you get that job done. Depending on which boon you get will determine how you go about finishing them. If you're trying to get away, swiftness/vigor/regeneration all could help you do that. Again depending on which one you get that will determine how exactly you plan out your other skills to get away.

#77 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:49 AM

View Posteviator, on 04 July 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

Again putting words in my mouth. No wonder your mind is so closed.

I'll see you on the BWE forums touting how fun I find the the random effects of elixirs. Time will tell what AN choses to do.

View Posteviator, on 04 July 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

"I guess people read somewhere on the Internet that random effects cannot be in competitive games. Like everything on the Internet, that is at most a half truth. The truth is that random effects are what create moments of opportunity for players to react to. There is a threshold of randomness that is not acceptable, but if you are given outcomes that have clear, non-game breaking implications, those are the moments that expert players should be using to press advantages. Without randomness, all you have is masked complexity, which is hard for new players to understand, and creates false choices."

Show me anywhere where a dev said anything like this about the mine kit, turrets, or other kits.

I'm not saying you're wrong and ArenaNet is right, I'm saying you are wasting your time and pulling out your hair for something beyond your control. Don't put words in my mouth and then say it's the "lowest form of argument on the Internet".

People have complained about the randomness of elixirs for a long time, and AN is STILL defending it. And you are still complaining. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result...Einstein called that the definition of "insanity".

I did not put any words in your mouth.

You infact, put words, in your own mouth.

#78 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:51 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

I did not put any words in your mouth.

You infact, put words, in your own mouth.

You made an inference. I told you what Einstein thinks of you.

#79 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:52 AM

View Postel hefe, on 04 July 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

no,  it would be your lack of skill. you didnt use the boon you got correctly.  if i got switness and i was in trouble i'd get the heck out of there.  if i got protectoin maybe i could stay and fight.

Yeah, its that simple.

Because that's how it always works.

But meanwhile in the REAL world. Protection is useful in more situations, and in sitiunational sitiuations, you will find swiftness best.

So, what happens when you have, in different situations, an objective best answer? Where protection is best? Or where swiftness is best? You get luck based RNG. No skill involved, either you get it, and win, or you don't and you lose.

The situation, where protection and swiftness are equally useful, is very very rare. You either need one, or the other more, and that is very simple.

#80 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:52 AM

View Postel hefe, on 04 July 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

no,  it would be your lack of skill. you didnt use the boon you got correctly.  if i got switness and i was in trouble i'd get the heck out of there.  if i got protectoin maybe i could stay and fight.

No it is a failure of game design to make a skill that is pure gambling.
Again ill repeat: Pure luck is is no way shape or form in any sense of logic or wisdom a skill based gameplay

#81 el hefe

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:53 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Except its forcefully put on all elixirs kinda and staff mesmer and thief steal.
If i want to go crit build, i can influence that and choose that.
If i pick a staff mesmer i get luck based gameplay, same with elixirs and steal.

it's not luck though.  you have to learn to use skill x,y,z  depending on what random effect you get.  it adds complexity and skill to combat.

#82 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:53 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

Because no amount of adapting, will change it from pure luck.

If I get swiftness, and not protection. No amount of adapting, will ever match, the luck element, of getting protection.

I think el hefe summed it up brilliantly above me. If he gets swiftness he's going to try and get out of there ASAP. If instead he gets protection, he'll be able to stay and fight a bit longer. That's a good player adapting to a random outcome.

I think far too much is being made of the word "luck" here. It's "unlucky" if you get a boon you don't want, just as it's "unlucky" if your opponent dodges your biggest damaging attack. In both situations, a good player will adapt and figure out a way to overcome the "unluckiness".

#83 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:54 AM

View PostA Wyatt Mann, on 04 July 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

Yeah, its that simple.

Because that's how it always works.

But meanwhile in the REAL world. Protection is useful in more situations, and in sitiunational sitiuations, you will find swiftness best.

So, what happens when you have, in different situations, an objective best answer? Where protection is best? Or where swiftness is best? You get luck based RNG. No skill involved, either you get it, and win, or you don't and you lose.

The situation, where protection and swiftness are equally useful, is very very rare. You either need one, or the other more, and that is very simple.

There is certainly skill involved. Either you get protection and go as planned or you don't get it and react to what you do get and use it to your advantage. Those who can use that to their advantage are skilled players, those who don't, well they aren't.

#84 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:55 AM

View Postel hefe, on 04 July 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

it's not luck though.  you have to learn to use skill x,y,z  depending on what random effect you get.  it adds complexity and skill to combat.

This implies that X,Y,Z are equally useful in all situations.

Which shows you have never even played the game.

Protection, is objectively better in some situations, as is swiftness. And when you are in a point, where X is better than Y and Z, and you get one randomly, then you are relying not on skill, but on luck.

And there are more situations in the game, where one boon is better than others, than there are cases where they are equal.

#85 Seafog

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:55 AM

I get the feeling that these *arguments* people put forth is nothing more then trolling.
They hold no water and is easily disproven with a simple logic test.

#86 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:55 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

No it is a failure of game design to make a skill that is pure gambling.
Again ill repeat: Pure luck is is no way shape or form in any sense of logic or wisdom a skill based gameplay

Just one more note about "luck" and how I think it is being over used here. If you have a bunch of conditions, and then use a skill to clear them, just as a big stack of burning is applied you may die from that burning. If you had waited a millisecond to remove your conditions, you would have got that stack of burning and you would have lived. Are you okay with this amount of luck?

#87 eviator

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:56 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I get the feeling that these *arguments* people put forth is nothing more then trolling.
They hold no water and is easily disproven with a simple logic test.

Funny, I got the same feeling.

#88 A Wyatt Mann

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:57 AM

View PostAdamantium, on 04 July 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

I think el hefe summed it up brilliantly above me. If he gets swiftness he's going to try and get out of there ASAP. If instead he gets protection, he'll be able to stay and fight a bit longer. That's a good player adapting to a random outcome.

I think far too much is being made of the word "luck" here. It's "unlucky" if you get a boon you don't want, just as it's "unlucky" if your opponent dodges your biggest damaging attack. In both situations, a good player will adapt and figure out a way to overcome the "unluckiness".

But your opponent controls his dodging, you control your attacks. Who controls your dice rolls?

And honestly, you are pretty silly if you think that swiftness is always as useful as protection. "just get out of there", really? In PvE, you are facing a boss. You need to survive his big hits and AoE. Swiftness won't help.

You've just been immobilized. Swiftness won't help. Protection will.

You've just entered combat, you don't need to run fast, or from anyone. But protection will soak up damage, it is better.

#89 Adamantium

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:57 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I get the feeling that these *arguments* people put forth is nothing more then trolling.
They hold no water and is easily disproven with a simple logic test.

Well, I can't speak for others but I was trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. Clearly that was a waste of my time if you are going to reduce all my points to "nothing more than trolling".

#90 dss_live

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:58 AM

View PostSeafog, on 04 July 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I get the feeling that these *arguments* people put forth is nothing more then trolling.
They hold no water and is easily disproven with a simple logic test.

Such a typical response for someone who has ran out of arguments. A shame it had to come to this.





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